Working @ The Midnight Hour
While biking back home from McCarthy's the other evening I was totally transfixed by the large amount of work being conducted at the Buffalo casino site. It was midnight and the entire block was lit up - the sounds of pile drivers filled the air and workers were keeping busy just about everywhere I looked. Back in May, WCP posted on the number of cranes on location... it's quite a sight during the daylight hours. But it is the work at night that is really impressive. To see this progress moving forward in the middle of the Cobblestone District in the middle of the night is pretty wild.
When I went back to the comments left on WCP's post, I was struck by the number of people (27) who gave rankings (average 4 stars) to the following words left by 'allfit':
"The rest of Buffalo could take a lesson from the Seneca tribe. They have a plan and they are executing on it. They have a goal and a sense of urgency that is lost on most other projects. If the Senecas owned the waterfront or the Aud then we would probably have a place to bring the family this summer instead of a dirt lot and chain link fences.
One thing about Buffalo Rising is that we pick and choose what to celebrate. You have a collective C-J over Bashar Issa doing nothing but hate anything that the Senecas do. You love commercial development downtown but hate the Bass Pro development. You love lofts and subsidies for the young bohemians but condemn inexpensive single family houses and subsidized living for the poor. You want thousands of people to move to Buffalo but you won't change anything to make it more hospitable and attractive. You condemn big box stores for their design and efficiency but then you hate the corner stores for their prices and the people who hang outside. Make up your minds people. What do you really want for Buffalo?"
Then, a few comments later, the following words were left by 'nyc' (15 rankings - average 3 stars):
"do you seriously think there is an honest comparison to be made between the hurdles facing a Buffalo developer and the Seneca Nation? Do you really feel the Seneca Nation is taking huge risks and going out on a limb financially the same way another developer would to build a similiarly scaled project downtown? You do realize the seneca nation is building a casino right? Something the state has promised them a monoply of? Do you not get that? I can't stand these statements, "developers take note" or how about "if they owned all of the buffalo waterfront we'd have a place to bring the family instead of a dirt lot" - yeah, so the kids like gambling? that's about all they would build."
The debate continues... until one day a new generation will forget that there ever was a debate to begin with.
What Others Have To Say
What Do You Think?
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Comment Options
skarnath
There are a lot of wonderful things happening in Buffalo. The casino is NOT one of them.
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magnum
It would be interesting to find out what all the big real estate investors (and I’m not going to list them) think about the casino. Was the expectation of 2,000 new jobs downtown the reason for their decision to build in Buffalo? Queenseye, maybe you could ask the backers of the 10 largest projects in downtown what affect the casino had on their decision.
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scandy
People waste their money at too many places already, the casino is just one more. No matter how you slice it up, the casino is going to bring a couple great restaurants, great venue for shows and 1100 jobs or so, good paying jobs with good benefits.... No one else can say that, and inevitably, alot of these workers may want or choose to live in downtown, adding to the growing number of people. Last point is that people tend to stay in hotels in the suburbs because the hotels in the city stink, we are possibly going to have a casino hotel, posible Wyndam Hotel and an Embassy Suites added to the city, that equals many jobs, more people staying in the city and more money being spent in the city...... Its all good
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carl
agreed
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rb66
Casinos already exist in Buffalo. Every Wilson Farms and corner store that sells lottery tickets, scratch offs, keno, etc... is a casino.
The Buffalo Creek Casino will create many jobs. I have a few friends that are working at the casino in Niagara Falls and are doing very well. If it wasn't for the job at the casino they would have left WNY.
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JohnnyWalker
Tthere are people who criticize the Senecas who haven't taken a dime from the public till. But, on the other hand, give a pass to the other Snyder... Paul of Hyatt regency fame, who now lives in Florida, recieved a huge subsidiy to construct the Hotel in the first place, and now comes back periodically to suck on the public tit whenever his piggy bank is on low.
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RonR
In terms of construction. I am not sure the progress is 100% because of the Seneca Nation. For me, it is more about who is NOT in the process.
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TheWhyNotGuy
I agree with Johnny Walker. Several posters in another thread are criticizing people who live on public assistance. I don't see how Paul Snyder is any different.
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bc71
Every Wilson Farms and corner store that sells lottery tickets, scratch offs, keno, etc... is a casino
That is a good point rb66, and isn't the state and the SLA now going to allow 'Moxie' into bars, some form of gambling that is being dressed up as a 'Game of Skill' ?
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mybuffalo
i would say at worst it is no gain no loss sooo at least it is adding to the skyline and will make an area that was a huge parking lot look nicer and that is at worst
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PaulBuffalo
I am not against casinos, in general, and I think Scandy makes some good points above; but, Buffalo is shortchanged on these issues:
1. The Buffalo Creek Casino was/is expected to collect $154 million to $188 million from gamblers in the first year, but the city receives just $5 million to $7 million annually in lieu of taxes;
2. The casino pays no local real estate taxes and no sales tax;
3. The Senecas themselves pay no income taxes on monies they earn at the casino;
4. There are added local social costs of increased crime, gambling addiction, bankruptcy, and suicide; and,
5. Courts and police have no jurisdiction on casino property.
Niagara Falls has a casino and a parking lot and nothing else of substance in the vicinity. Again, I am not against casinos, but there are many challenges ahead to make these entities good neighbors for the community. I have not seen that demonstrated to date.
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scooter
unsure if i'm for the casino or not yet.....i know it aint for me. i've only gone once to nia falls casino.
i've always felt the issue with the Nia Falls casino in regards to spin off development is the fact that the casino is in the middle of a 50 Acre peice of land. you can't build next to the casino. as opposed to the canadian side. in buffalo, this casino is on 9 acres. i think we will see a few developments pop up next to it. a new hotel or restaurant is going to want to be next to the casino....not 50 acres away.
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Smitch83
I second that, skarnath. The casino is certainly not one of the highlights of what's going on right now downtown. For a second, lets put aside the fact that it abuts a middle-to-low income neighborhood, is self-supporting, and will leach off of all the other restaurants, bars, and hotels downtown. When all is said and done, we might as well have sold that piece of land to the Canadians. They are doing a nice job up in Niagara Falls, ON with the casino's, who’s to think that they wouldn't do a nice job here? We could have made them promise us a small piece of the days take and they too would have employed local people. Although the land would technically be another country, as is the case with the indians, and they wouldn't be required to pay taxes or abide by any of our laws. Sounds like a great idea to me. I mean we sold a chunk of our city to another country, so that they could build a CASINO of all things...it blows my mind.
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sally
Paul Buffalo - What did NFNY have in that area before the Casino and it's 3,000 jobs? My recollection is that what is now outside the Casino Footprint is also what was inside the Casino footprint before it was built.
Also name another 22 story hotel complex in the City of Buffalo that pays $7 million a year in property and sales tax? Does the Hyatt - oh that's right WE PAY THEM.
Your arguments are terribly weak and reeks of the stench of those that wish to tell others how to spend their hard earned money.
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JohnnyWalker
The Senecas will pay the state about 24 million annually in lieu of taxes. The fact that Buffalo's take is only 7million is an issue that should be negotiated between the city and the state.
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buffaloboy14
This is GREAT! Buffalo needs this, normal successful citys have casinos and skyrise condos that are priced for the wealthy,high priced resturants,bars,stores, good malls IN THE CITY and none of them have a bunch of whiney little tree huggers like most of you. You guys need to get you head out of the stoneage and knock down these old abandoned buildings that serve no purpose and have investers build whatever they want to because its going to be better that staring at crap and having crack heads living in them. We have a good Mayor that wants to build a great city that Buffalo once was so sit back stop crying and let him do his job! This city is not going to change if you dont let it change!
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marcia2
Although I don't waste my money in Casinos I believe that the "Buffalo Creek Casino" is probably the best thing to happen to Buffalo in a long time. I agree with @rb66 not only do I consider legalized lottery to be casino like, the stock market, and mutual funds are just as bad. I cringe everytime my mutual fund statement arrives.
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PaulBuffalo
Sally, please understand that I don't post comments to be argumentative. I'm all for civil discourse. I posted factual information in my earlier comment and I reiterate that I am not against any casino in theory.
You are correct that Niagara Falls had little before the casino, but that area has not seen improvement even though many jobs were created. Where is the spinoff benefit? I don't know whether the Hyatt in downtown Buffalo pays taxes, but I'm sure every other hotel in Buffalo and western New York does.
My concern regarding a casino is how does the community address the inevitable negative impact that also comes with the positive of jobs? Has there been an increased police presence at the casino? If so, will it continue? Has increased funding been set up for social service agencies to handle the increased cases of gambling addiction and suicide? Just as a manufacturer must take steps to minimize pollution, a casino has its own responsibilities. Again, I've not seen that demonstrated to date.
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eyepharded
It's obnoxious. As a resident of the elk terminal I have to hear that pile driver every day from 7am on, and to be wake up at midnight was just ubsurd. Shows how much they care about their community.
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Texpat10
Actually the Niagara Falls Convention Center was inside the site footprint...and now is the casino. The promise of spin-off development hasn't, unfortunately, been realized in Niagara Falls.
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sally
Paul neither the Hyatt nor the Adams Mark, nor the under construction Embassy suites pay property taxes. They pay and will pay greatly reduced PILOTs, In addition all three have received EXTENSIVE governmental assistance for their construction and renovation projects. They are all on the highest amount of corporate welfare available.
The Seneca's by their $24 million annual contribution to the STATE of NY and City of Buffalo from the Buffalo Casino alone are in effect subsidising their competitors. There is no sales tax being paid on the renovations of the Hyatt or Adam's Mark nor on the construction materials for the Embassy Suites due to IDA grants. The same held true for the Hampton and Comfort Suites downtown. The Seneca Creek Hotel is the only 100% privately funded hotel project with ithe City limits in the last 40 years. That is the fact.
You post your comments to be argumentative because you and your ilk cannot stand the fact that something is being done within this City without your blessing. You cannot stand it that others will not kowtow to your wishes and it is eating you alive.
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sally
Texpat10 - please post a link to even one, one instance where the Seneca's EVER promised that there would be spinoff from their Casino's? I googled and could not find one. I did find several where the Casino was called a piece of the puzzle, and sever more where it was flatly stated that the Casino would NOT be a cure all. But show me one where the Seneca's promised more than they delivered.
BTW during it's second to last year in operation the NF Convention Center hosted less than 10 conventions.
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frieda
I would think that the $90,000,000 payroll can be classified as a spinoff, since That money is spent elsewhere in the region. In addition a 391 room crown plaza recently opened across the street from the casino. Plus the Seneca Gaming Corp is building a world class golf course in lewiston, which is not inside the "FOOTPRINT" and therefore will be subject to normal taxation. At some point the city of Niagara falls is going to have to pick up the ball and run with it. The SGC can't be asked to do everything.
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kooksapalooza
is there ever pleasing buffalo? if the sabres win the stanley cup people while playing an away game...people will will complain if it occured at the opponents arena....i agree that the senacas arent really offering a whole lot to the city directly. But dont be foolish enough to think that just getting people to downtown isnt an improvement at this point....if you build it they will come...and if they come...the rest of us can start doing something productive for once to bank on them finally making it to the city. By the time the waterfront gets done the casino will be in place too...why is having stuff finally being done so upsetting? If you are foolish enough to go to a casino with the only 10 dollars in your pocket and lose it, then i have a pretty good feeling that you prob wouldnt have been investing that money in your children's college fund anyways. People need a reason to come to the city...once they do the rest of us can start getting them to stay to go shopping or eat at restaurants nearby. Im all for the casino...it wont benefit me directly in anyway...but being in the city when things are finally happening i wont complain. We may not be getting a lot from this directly...but i fail to see how we are losing anything now or in the future
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bboozehound
Sally,
The point you are missing is that the city is missing out on a TON of money by having casino run by the Seneca's. Great the city's getting 7mil and the rest of the cities hotels are in operation out of subsidies but the city could have had so much more. Here's a link to the gross receipts that the Detriot casino's are pulling in monthly - http://www.michigangaming.com/detnews.html
Now, if there is going to be a casino whether anyone likes it or not - I sure would rather see the city generating the kind of revenue the city of Detriot is receiving over our paltry in comparison 7 mil.
One of Buffalo's biggest problems is our horrendous infrastructure and we are handing over a license to print money to the Seneca's when we could be using the casino revenue to do things like remove the Skyway and move the 190!
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sally
Booze - the City is missing out on zilch. They are gettting $8 million from property that before gave them zero. I see no similar windfall for Rochester or Syracuse or Albany or NYC. Buffalo is getting money for doing nothing.
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sally
Booze - the City is missing out on zilch. They are gettting $8 million from property that before gave them zero. I see no similar windfall for Rochester or Syracuse or Albany or NYC. Buffalo is getting money for doing nothing.
Great linnk to Gross Revenues in Detroit too bad they are meaningless Gross Revenues and not NET REVENUES.
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PaulBuffalo
Sally, you said: "You post your comments to be argumentative because you and your ilk cannot stand the fact that something is being done within this City without your blessing. You cannot stand it that others will not kowtow to your wishes and it is eating you alive." I like to think that most of us here don't want to argue. BuffaloRising is refreshing because there is actually a discussion that take place among folks who have a great interest in the city doing well.
I appreciate that you mention more detail regarding the other large hotels because I wasn't aware of all the subsidies. However, the casino will never be obligated to pay any taxes. That is not the case with these other properties.
Your passion and the passion of the other casino boosters here are not exclusive. There are those of us who want to see the casino be a positive for the community, too, but there is a measure of responsibility that must be expected from a tax-free entity.
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onestarmartin
Sencas 7mill to Buffalo-Hyatt 10 mill from Buffalo...hmmmm
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bison716
Can't wait to see it in person!
http://www.senecagamingcorporation.com/SBCC/renderings.cfm
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MJWorthington
How about give the Hyatt a monopoly on casino gaming? He can then give us 7 mil instead of taking money. Lets allow every hotel complex DT to have casino gaming, build what ever else they want on site tax free for only a percentage of slots. I'd call it fair competition and fair comparisons.
Don't you think if the monopolistic casino rights were put up for bid we could not have had more? Could we not have demanded an urban integrated facility instead of a drive-in, drive-out fortress? Where's the entrance? About 1-2 acres into the site or thru the parking garage. Yet we say we want spin off development and for people to walk around.
I guess my biggest irk is the comparison to other developers. Who else was offered a monopoly on casino gaming and did not come through? What Seneca developments were the before given the monopoly on casino gaming? I still waiting on answers to these.
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buffalostan
this is all moneys going to indians whar do we get bur empty pockets why cant they all just go back home to there indian p;aces
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kooksapalooza
ummm...thank you buffalostan for your enlightening words....??????????? seriously...
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CRobs
Simple Points.
1.) Adding a casino to a part of town where NOBODY frequents, and this includes you, HSBC Arena goers, is no different to ANY individual's life. This changes NOTHING about the complexity of your day, especially if you don't care to attend. When's the last time you went for a stroll down Michigan Ave? Seriously?!! 2.) More jobs in a deprived economy is ALWAYS a plus. 3.) The fact that the city held out for more money for a piece of garbage street is absolutely lude. 4.) Anyone involved in litigation against the Senecas- get a clue. I love the Wilson Farms comment earlier, but besides that- ummmm...let's see...you can gamble in Hamburg at the Fairgrounds, including Slot Machines and betting on Horse races, as well as in Niagara Falls. Your main "core" is downtown Buffalo, which sits right in the middle. Why the F not let people spend their money there, when they might be dumping it north or south of the city, if not on the OTHER side of the border?!!!!!!!!! 5.) If anyone even mentions the fact that they knocked down the grain silos - lay off the pot. These do NOTHING for your pocketbook and Buffalo will NEVER get ahead if they keep looking at the past as a prayer for the future.
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GDC
Went by this last night and noticed the work still going on as well as the parking lot PACKED and people even parking across the street because the main lot was full. It was nice to see life in this part of town at night. Can't wait to see the "New" casino complex finished. It should light up the area more.
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heathersmiles
I don't watch football or hockey, so I find that our investment in a mulit-million dollar arena and another stadium to be a waste of taxpayer's money, given that these are just frivolous entertainment venues where people waste their money. Our sport teams promote drinking, gambling, and wasting money on over priced garbage with the team logo emblazoned on it. I see a lot of our poorest residents with very expensive Buffalo Bills hats and jackets, why are we encouraging them to waste their money? The stadium, arena, and sports franchises extort money from the tax payers every few years with threats of relocating, which inevitably results in a larger tax donation to these for profit enterprises. I believe that if we fight the casino on the basis of revenue lost, impact to the community, and tax burden, then we should be consistent with other money wasting endeavors.
We need to protect the poor people of Buffalo from the Casino! They cannot take care of themselves or the money that we give them. Please stop the Casino and protect the dignity of the low income residents before they spend all their money in one place. This is our duty as responsible citizens to remove this temptation from the poor before it is too late.
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sb16
I hope you're being sarcastic heathersmiles.
If so, pretty funny if not, kinda sad.
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onestarmartin
good one heather...lol
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Biniszkiewicz
I have a proposal: I'll also build a big new hotel and I'll also pay the state $28 million a year in taxes; all I require is the exclusive right to offer prostitution in my establishment.
I'll bring tourists from all parts. People are going to spend their money the way they want to, anyway. Government shouldn't be our nanny. I just don't want anyone else to be able to compete with my sex business, so I'll only build the place if the state promises me an exclusive franchise.
Judging by many of the comments on casinos, my proposal should be just fine.
But I agree with MJWorthington: the problem with the casino is that we allow them to offer what we don't allow anyone else to offer. It's not a level playing field. If we are going to allow gambling, then the restauranteur who is losing dinner guests to the casino should have the right to offer gambling to lure back some of his/her customers.
What stinks to high heaven is the route politicians took to bring gambling. Rather than make gambling legal in New York (most straight forward, honest route), rather than at least putting the issue up for a referendum (democracy in action), our fearless leaders instead negotiated loopholes in the law to pretend that a two block area of the City of Buffalo is now some foreign country where our laws just don't apply.
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ToughintheStreets
Official Team Jersey: $100
Official Team Hat: $20
Tickets: $150
Beers: $32
Spending my hard earned money however I damn-well please: Priceless
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sally
Bini - Go for it. I think your proposal should be a part of Canalside. IF we want that area to be authentic your project is a necessity. Perhaps you can enlist Donn Esmonde to write a column about it to drum up support!
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sally
Dinner for two at the Casino: $125 Casino Concert Tickets: $80 Money to Gamble: $100 Beers: Free Parking: Free Spending my hard earned money however I damn-well please: Priceless
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bfloghost
Tough, not one penny spent on the poor. You are pretty heartless.
Bini, I like the idea too have you put any serious proposals together yet? You should have done that when Spitzer was still gov though. And $28 mill in taxes, so you're probably going to recruit all those lovely girls from Niagara St huh? That would at least get them out of Fredrico's hair.
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nyc
it's too bad they didn't land the casino right in the canal district.. on the donovan or the webster block and require the senecas to lease first floor to sidewalk retail that fits the overal canalside concept. If the casino was under construction on the webster block with an urban friendly facade and program, i would guarantee the canalside project would be moving twice as fast. Also, limit to no casino hotel and limited restaurant capacity and the whole neighborhood would soon be under construction. Unfortunately the state dictated the terms to the senecas with no foresight and screwed Buffalo over.
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sally
Nothing wrong with the Casino having Restaurants and a Hotel at least their employees will receive FULL benefits including Health Insurance and 401K with matching. Too bad none of the LOCAL restaurants offer any benefits to their employees. I guess the local owners of those establihments are just too greedy.
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nyc
so keep the locals employees rather then employers. good plan.
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sally
That's exactly what the Casino's do - plus all of the profits (that are not siphined off by NY State) stay in WNY with the Seneca's who continually reinvest it. As in their tax paying golf course in Lewiston.
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DJB
Anyone notice last night's news story that there is a shortage of hotel beds in Niagara Falls? It appears the casino up there is having some positive impact on the city. Certainly the weak dollar is making it more attractive for Canadians to visit the US, but you can't deny the fact that the casino has improved the number of visitors. I am not sure if a casino in Buffalo will be as successful as one in Niagara Falls (due to the proximity of the Canadian casinos and the natural wonder) but the results in Niagara Falls are better than most predicted.
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MJWorthington
"Too bad none of the LOCAL restaurants offer any benefits to their employees. I guess the local owners of those establihments are just too greedy."
Too bad they are not able to offer slots/gaming odds to fund such benefits......
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tonyarmani
I'm going to repost this to all the haters that think the Senecas are the only people who will benefit:
"All -
Whether you like it or hate it, pro/against the casino, we can all agree on one thing: the city must benefit from this. Since the project will happen in either case, I think we should try to find ways to create more business and spin off more development. Instead of arguing how unfair it is that the Seneca Indians don't have to follow the rules, let's try to think of ways to prosper.
1. Implementing public transportation is a must. Being able to put light rail from HSBC here would create a one-stop shop for people looking to go out after a Sabres/Bandits game to someplace other than Chippewa. The area will have to be improved with increased foot traffic so entrepreneurs should take advantage of this.
2. Marketing. If you are in the business doing marketing advertisement, here is a great promo and attraction for the city. With development happening in the Basin/Inner Harbor area, keeping people in the lower Buffalo region should be easy. Outsource your skills to the Seneca Nation for flyers, brochures, websites, etc.
3. Construction - For those that can handle physical labor, here is a golden opportunity. Repairs to roads, houses, properties, new businesses, parking lots/ramps all need those willing to work. No further explanation is necessary.
4. Security/Protection Companies - Casinos tend to lead to higher security and any company in the business should look into this.
5. Hospitality Industries - Restaurants, bars, smaller motels, all could have a heyday here. Give tourist/customers an alternative to the buffet/casino food and have them spend their winnings here. Hopefully the same model that works in Niagara Falls, CA will work here whereby business creates business. New businesses feed off of the casinos' draw and create other businesses, which draw even more. By creating more business along the light rail to the casino it will keep it from being isolated and provide competition, which is ALWAYS a good thing.
There are many more opportunities for those that have the will and ambition. Let's use these as a springboard to starting some Buffalo owned companies before the Tony Romas, Chinese Buffets, and Dollar stores make their way over. "
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MJWorthington
"Hopefully the same model that works in Niagara Falls, CA will work here whereby business creates business"
Ah yes......let's hope....since it is all we will have.
Once again, just as comparing Seneca "developers" to local developers in invalid (one has a monopoly on gambling), so is expecting a fair comparison between NF NY/BUF NY to NF ON where the casinos are gov't owned as opposed to our soveriegn nation island. This could have been so so so much more. That's the most depressing part of it. We sit here demanding spin off but did nothing to help promote/ensure it. We are stuck with a non-binding agreement between the city and the Seneca's. Great.....
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heathersmiles
Biniszkiewicz - I am not a proponent of prostitution as it is practiced today but I do like your idea. It could be like the red light district in Amsterdam.
If you do go through with it will you call it the BINI RANCH?
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Einstein
We should have let the Senecas build it in Cheektowaga, then we would complain that this development is happening in the suburbs instead of the city. Just remember that we fought to have this built in the city.
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Rez
The government and corporations have turned us into mindless consumers.
Now the govenment and corporations are promoting the worst consumption cannibalism via casinos.
http://www.storyofstuff.com/
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NewBuffalo
"Now the govenment and corporations are promoting the worst consumption cannibalism via casinos."
Sounds as bad as having sabres season tickets taking you to HSBC arena and locking you inside for $7 beer and $4 hot dogs.....get over it, its just another form of entertainment...
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