Buffalo Rising Online

How many units are in this building? Are they all going fo 1500/month or are some more or less depending on sq ftg?

These are georgeous and 1500/month is a steal!

Time to lease out the first floor now.

stunning property

Time for more??? It took them over a year to lease these 4 units out! I dont think this project was a real money pit for them.

Well it goes to show the value in historic tax credits and their ability to reduce overhead costs and lower the rents in units like this. What wouldn't rent for 2k went quick after the credits were approved and price dropped to 1.5k.

The apartments and their new residents will be a welcomed addition to the downtown core. I also like the fact that all of these residents are from outside the city. This helps to support the so far unsubstantiated claims that if you build the right kinds of housing, that you can attract new residents into the city. We have the amenities to bring people back, we just need to stop trying to be something we are not and focus on the basics.

outsidelookingin......

In most markets, $1500 to $2000 units wouldn't be scooped up over night. Nor did this developer think it would happen any quicker.....this investment will pay off in the loooooooong run. And I'm sure they are very very satisfied with that.

The positive news here is that people are intrested in living and working in the 600 block of main.

This is laughable. The first floor of this building looks lively. Big deal, 4 apartments were rented. I am sure the residents will be thrilled when a pawn shop moves in downstairs. The homeless people urinating on that tree out front will add charm in the summer months. For now the residents will have to settle for sitting by the window watching garbage blow down the "street" and wave at the occasional empty train that passes by.

Sleep8,

I guess that means none of these buildings should ever be renovated? Why do anything to attract wealthier more educated people into the city? Right?

Exactly what is your point?

Small projects lead to big projects.

The Pierce Building rocks - totally - as you can tell from these photos which do it great justice. The exterior shots may be a tad out of date, however, judging from the greenery and what appear to be "lease me" signs where Clinton Brown Architecture now proudly resides. I had the chance to attend Clint's ribbon cutting last year, and the Plaza Group team gave us all a full tour of the building. In addition to the fine interior work, the views outside are stunning - both front and back - especially one in particular of Rocco's new development on Ellicott Street and St. Michael's. The Plaza Group folks are first-class, and deserve much success with this project.

This outstanding project makes all the more poignant the decay and demolition last year of the Vernor Building, which was within sight distance and also had a striking terra cotta facade. That building could have had - and deserved - a similarly outstanding "new lease" on life, had the people involved done right by it.

Feeling safe is relative. I went to an auction in Geneva (lilly white finger lake resort town), last week, went into the 'city', and found myself in a situation where you would have wet your pants. Two or more black people in a group does not constitute a riot. There are many people that welcome living in a city. If it doesn't feel safe to you, then it's not for you. The Chippewa shooting was retaliation (not reported that way in the news). I see over the weekend a number of cars were broken into in Clarence, I wouldn't argue that makes Clarence unsafe. Perpetuate the myths as long as you like ( a little more sophisticated than Sleepl8's homeless urinator, but dealt from the same deck) fewer people seem to be listening.

Everyone chill, even though the comment is negative, it is funny. Sleep8 has a point. Main st is real ghetto right now and lets put it in presepective, it is only 4 apartements.

You will see from my remarks above that I am support the development and think the apts are beautiful, but I do appreciate other points and/or sarchasm.

If you don't like the negative comments then don't pay attention to them. Don't let it bother you so much.

Hey Rome wasn't built in a day, 4 apts here, 10 there. As long as the momentum keeps moving and we keep doing everything we can to keep it moving there will be more people on the streets and a safer vibe at all hours. Main Street used to be much worse and sketchier, but I don't know anyone anymore that would feel unsafe walking that block. This doesn't mean everyone won't as benf said before. Safety is subjective. I personally wouldn't feel safe in many suburban areas because if something were to happen there isn't anyone around to hear you yell for help. Just talk to the family of that guy would was left in his car dead in a parking lot in Clarence for several days before anyone even noticed it.

But to each their own, this is a good project, brings in people, eyes and money to downtown. Main Street obviously isn't in that bad shape otherwise they would never have rented because I am sure these people didn't up and move blind.

carl, but thats all we have been doing for 40 years anyhow. Moving the blight around one city neighborhood to another. Sorry to by cynical but maybe it is time for the suburbs to get a little taste of it as well. Might bring them together to actually solving some of these regional issues instead of pretending it is just someone else's problem.

Maybe it is the negative nellies drinking the cool aid. Sleep8 did not furnish a point to his comment. It was just negative for the sake of negative. For instance, there is no pawn shop moving into this building so why dose he state that? What is the contribution to discussion of this topic? Certainly there is a lot of work to do before downtown approaches anything resembling a vibrant urban environment. So does that mean nothing should be done? Everyone knows that so what is Sleep8's point? Has he talked to the people moving in here? Does he know their motives,their tastes, their awareness of the neighborhood?

He says it is laughable to point out incremental improvements like this. I ask why.

The building earned $0 per apartment now it earns$1500 per apartment and there are several in the area just like it. That is something worth taking note of.

Gaustad. Thanks. I can always count on you to come to my defense.

STEEL. My point is that without filling the commercial space this "development" does little to improve the condition of Main St. This post is regarding the rental of 4 apartments. 4!!! It is miniscule. Main St. is still a disaster. The pawn shop comment was a joke. I am implying that there is hardly any other ligitimate retail moving into that area that would draw anyone to Main St. that isnt living/loitering there already. My "contribution to the conversation" is this: This "development" is a drop in a big dirty bucket....I am not impressed. Sorry if you don't agree.

jhill...thanks for the name calling...clearly you more intelligent that I............and yes I was upset at the loss of Drury and Briere....although I am not sure what that has to do with my post?

Some of you have a positive outlook on everything which is fine. Others of us like myself and gaustad....and nonono although i usually dont agree with him/her....have a less optimistic view. Many of us being at odds with eachother is what makes visiting this site amusing and it's why i read it and participate in it.

Sleep, it's a bit of an odd argument you pose. If the apartments remained unoccupied, it would be cause for concern. If they remained vacant, would you deem it uninteresting, because it's only one project? Probably not. Those with money invested in the area would find it disconcerting, to say the least. Those that propose new projects are cognizant of whats happening at the margin (the last new project), flows of tenants from one area to another, etc. While it may be laughable to you, it's of interest to those with tangible interest in the area. Whether your impressed or not is laughable, whether sellers continue to find buyers (renters), is relevant to continued investment in this area.

Sleep...That was much better...except that if you put a bucket under a leaky faucet those drops eventually end up flowing over the top.

Commercial space on Main will never be viable without an increased residential population and until traffic is brought back. Until then we do need to hear about these kinds of projects. Most people in WNY only hear about the bad stuff to the point that they know only the negative. Yes it is only four apartments. It is also a set of windows lit up at night. Snarky humor is fine but it wears thin when any and all positive news in the city is met with the same old negative response.

It's nice to see these rented. The 700 block has the potential to become a very nice residential area, and hopefully the restoration of car traffic to Main St. will speed up the transformation.

Main St. is slowly being recovered, and it is these small projects that are bringing about this recovery. Why ridicule them? We complain that nothing gets done, and buildings are falling apart, but we make fun of those who do accomplish something. Why?

Drops sure, but there are a couple hundred of these little drops in and around downtown. There are now a dozen or so buildings that are no longer falling apart but functional, tax generating properties. These things really do add up. Maybe those comments were functional while talking about the Bellesario project but at this stage in the game every drops isn't the start but a part of an important process of re-populating our city core.

Also there are even small signs that services are following. There are new gyms, stores and restaurants moving into downtown all the time. Some businesses are seeing their profits rise. Even the realist must agree that the bucket isn't quite as dirty as it was 10 years ago. Just as every optimist needs to realize we are far from done.

The question we all should be asking ourselves is what can do to keep the ball moving. Should we frequent the new stores? Visit downtown a little more often. Pick up that bottle we step over? Pressure our political leaders for a more effective use of police. Create incentives for re-use while changing laws that create the sort of dead spaces that provide places for people to urinate or cause problems.

Steel...point taken. Although I see the bucket as still half empty, you see it half full. Fine. I see the forest still being in the tank, you see the small trees growing in it.....

benfranklin...same to you. I understand that in order for business to survive on Main, outsiders need to become residents and residents need to become customers. I say it's laughable because we take interest in the renting of 4 apartments on Main St. in our city. Tell someone in most other cities that 4 apartments were just rented on any street and they will say "who gives a shit?"

I "laugh" at the condition of our city more so than the significance of new residents on Main St.....and by "laugh" I mean cry because it's depressing....

Guys, I see both points, but once again. have to admit that I find Sleep's comments entertaining.

I just can't figure out why negative comments/sarchasm are taken so seriously on this site. I think Sleep gets the point. He is just venting a little bit. Steel, I underestimated your passion and sensitivity toward Buffalo. I don't think it is necessary to analyze all negative comments. Its counterproductive to rehash, now we are all taken of topic.

I belive some people have higher standards than others and are able to see what a long jouney we have on the road to success. some don't like the distance we need to travel and want more speed. Others are content with the pace we are moving at. I am not.

Perhaps the discussion should geared toward how this site should be utilized. Some visit here to vent, joke, or add constructive opinions.

I, for one, enjoy variety and different points of view. If I don't like what I read, I move on, no need to dwell on it.

Actually,

I remember it being BIG news in NYC when one or two people would move into Soho loft apartments. Back then Soho had no people and no retail and pretty much no anything. Now, WOW!

Criticism of problems within the city don't bother me. Read back through my BRO stories. A majority are not positive puff pieces. I appreciate constructive criticism but, then there is negativism for the sake of negativism, that is just boring. I think Sleep and I understand each other now.

I think I need a nap. I hate gettin up on Monday....

gaustad is right that there's a lot of sensitivity and political correctness around here. It should go without say that the BR owners actually *want* a mix of viewpoints if for no other reason than their own financial self interest of attracting more readers of their ads.

Here's what Steel's 'negativism for the sake of negativism' complaint overlooks: For Sleepl8 to comment on why he wouldn't like those apts is no more or less relevant than others commenting to simply say they sound great.

Sleep8 did not furnish a point to his comment. It was just negative for the sake of negative.

If Sleepl8 was without any point and just 'negative for the sake of negative', then are others 'positive for the sake of positive' in comments when they don't furnish a 'point' - 'time for more of these', 'stunning property', etc.? Who's the judge deciding what qualifies as a 'point'? Wait, don't answer that. I realize who's the decider. Question for the Point-Or-No-Point judge: Steel, does flyguy's comment above furnish a point? Doesn't that say pretty much the same thing as Sleepl8 said, which some found so worthy of starting drama over?

bison716 - why didn't you just read the article and skip reading comments? There's more than one side to everything, usually more than two sides. If you're closed minded about a particular topic such as this one and feel there's only one possibly valid viewpoint, then why read other people's comments about it? The article itself contained the news update. Who appointed you to try silencing others?

It seems more and more people lately appointed themselves as bosses. Somebody on another thread tried to forbid any critical comments here about the mayor. What goes through the minds of you bossy people - bison716 for example? I take it you're not one of the people I see driving on Elmwood with those "Dissent is Patriotic" stickers on your car? Or it's ok if it's something you decide can have more than one viewpoint? What strange arrogance.

About the apts - it's good to see the marketplace at work. The disadvantages mentioned by Sleepl8 and flyguy probably contributed to not finding tenants at the initial price but clearly aren't severe enough to prevent renting at the lower price. Although I'm not thrilled about tax credits to help promote trying to make a new residential neighborhood downtown, there's no stopping that now and I'll wish the owners good luck. Returning car traffic to that block in a few years as the city plans will help, but I don't think people renting around there should expect of a whole lot more residential density and vibrancy even then. They'd be wise to look at how it is now and decide on that basis if it's acceptable. If they really want a lot more neighbors around, there's Allentown, Elmwood, Hertel, and many other neighborhoods to chose from.

mmjazz - Of course, I'm not saying 'positive for sake of positive' comments shouldn't be posted. I was just using them as a comparison pointing out Steel's selective critique of Sleepl8. Everybody should have their say with less political correctness policing and drama about the whole thing. If the site owners want to delete anything that's their right obviously, but everyone else here is a guest and not a boss. Sleepl8's points were just as much worthy of being tossed into the mix here as the short positive comments are. That's all I meant.

mmjazz - yes, it's the reason you guessed.

Why wouldn't we approve tax credits? I thought you wanted tax reform. The only way that developers will be drawn here is if the city gives them assurance that they will support development. The taxes are unattractive. We need to provide incentives for this kind of thing--or is it because its residential?

I'm not sure govt subsidies or tax breaks to try creating a new residential neighborhood downtown is necessarily smart. There's so many existing residential areas in Buffalo emptying, declining, or nearing edge of decline. I do understand arguments people make for these breaks: (1) it helps save 'historic' (usually just meaning 'old') downtown buildings, and (2) some upscale people really really want to live downtown and in some cases just won't be willing to live anywhere else in the city. I just think tax money for (1) should focus on commercial jobs-creating uses, and reason (2) is something the upscale people should pay for with their own money. I'm not saying disallow residential downtown with zoning - that would go too far, but let the market place work it out. Looking at Buffalo as a whole - the north, south, east, and west parts of it - it doesn't seem to me lack of residential downtown is a big enough problem that govt needs to step in and try to help make it happen. My understanding is that even back 50 yrs ago when Buffalo had double current population (580,000 vs. 280,000), there was very little residential downtown. But to be clear, I'm not saying it's any huge problem that these kind of projects receive tax breaks (which I think are federal anyhow... maybe state and local too, not sure). But I wouldn't mind if they didn't.

An even worse tax break was one of the waterfront condo towers under construction receiving one even though it sold out all their expensive condos very fast and is in a veryy high-demand area. Another recent example around here was an amusement park getting industrial tax breaks for some new rides they had already purchased. Our new county exec was the only 'no' vote against that on the panel who awards such things. I'm sure there's countless examples, so I'm not ranting too much against this one.

Actually Atwater,

I asked Sleep to stand behind his/her comment and he/she did. Why is that a problem for you. People constantly ask me to stand behind my comments and I do. Funny how you think anything positive on this site is fair game for being slammed but don't dare call into question anything said that is negative.

Steel - That sounds quite defensive to infer I might have a problem with your entire comments to Sleepl8.

Actually Atwater, I asked Sleep to stand behind his/her comment and he/she did. Why is that a problem for you. ...

You asking him to defend his position was fine, of course. That was in your first comment. I didn't write anything about you asking him that. What I mentioned was specific about what you said later (after he answered your question) when you dismissed him as 'negative for the sake of negative' and asserting he had no point. You may disagree with it, but his first comment had a point as much as did many of the others who commented.

STEEL

Today, 14:28

Maybe it is the negative nellies drinking the cool aid. Sleep8 did not furnish a point to his comment. It was just negative for the sake of negative. ...

And also asked whether flyguy's (10:30) comment was also 'negative for the sake of negative' and also had no point?

I was going to ask what 'negative nellie' meant, but maybe it means anyone who's negative about things you aren't negative about. It's ok to be negative about certain things, but being so about other things makes one a 'nellie'. I get it. (And careful please... remember the time you knee-jerk claimed someone was never positive, and were quickly shown many counter examples... let's not have that again.)

Traffic will never return to Main becuase it is too expensive. Who is going to pay for it? Little hard to go back to Albany after the state gave us millions to build a one line subway and tell them we now want to put trafffic back on the street.

This type of senseless news with no resolution is one of the main reasons why people leave here and don't return. It is actually comical. We have been talking about traffic returning to main for 20 years or more.

I have friends all over the country jokingly ask if traffic has returned to Main or if we have built a new peace bridge. It is humiliating.

My suggestion to our politcians...don't bring it up, no more cannon designs, no more talk until it is finalized.

It is a demoralizing negative topic for the people who live here..

atwater,

I think you have the order of comments mixed up and it will be too complicated and boring for me to defend myself so I will just leave it at this. I think Sleep and I have an understanding. We just see the shade of gray in different light. I believe you my friend only see black or white : )

Steel - Good to hear you guys worked things out, but it's not me who has any order mixed up. Whatever. I won't bother replying to any future questions if you ever ask any because my follow ups might be too complicated or boring to sort out. In fact to avoid future black-and-white unfairness I might impose on your fair-minded characterizations of other viewpoints, I won't even see your comments. Have fun with future mature name calling like 'negative nellies'. That was oh so subtle and shows yes indeed you do see 'shades of gray' much better than I can ever hope to see them. Brilliant.

gaustad - I noticed Channel 2 got a clarification from the mayor after his speech last week promised the Main St traffic would be returned this year. Yes, this year. It will... in a way... partly... depending on the definition of "returned"...

From: http://www.wgrz.com/news/news_article.aspx?storyid=55698

Changes On Main Street? Posted by: Josh Boose, Reporter Updated: 2/24/2008

"There are some issues with the federal government that are slowing the other parts being opened, but that is still being studied and those issues are being worked through," Brown said. There's no telling when those issues will be worked out. But the mayor says construction on the 700 block of Main Street will begin in mid-July and will be complete by November, 2008.

Getting back to small steps for improvements. This block has changed for the better in the last 20 years. One needs to view old photos from the late 70's and 80's to see how run down this block was to take for granted how it looks today. As for only 4 apartments not making a big deal, Small steps do add up if we keep going up those stairs. Places like NYC took YEARS to improve it's self to what it is today, that city used to be a real s*&# whole back in the 70's -early 90's, and it took baby steps like the ones in Buffalo to get it better. ...My point is, keep hope alive, it seems like Buffalo will soon be great again (or is it already?)

STEEL......It's he. Seeing myself referred to as he/she kinda freaked me out...haha

Sorry I started this bickering.

mmjazz- How do you equate someone's tax refund being stolen with white/suburban fear of the city? Most people would read that & just think..."Weird" Though there was also an article about a woman's designer purse being stolen at a Chip bar that sent shudders down my back.

Sleepl8 - You didn't cause anything. Same kind of stuff goes on a lot here. I've decided Avoid User is better than calling people on what I see as repeated mischaracterizations, so I won't be contributing to any future bickering or whatever with that commenter/author.

mmjazz - Believe me, there's plenty of crime I've seen that doesn't get reported in the Bflo News. They set aside that one little part of the paper each day for crime, and I've no idea how they choose which handful of crimes to print. The "$1000 taxrefund stolen" might have sounded out of the ordinary and that's why it got printed. Some weekly neighborhood newspapers here print excerpts of the police blotter reporting similar crime stories as the News but in higher volume. I don't think those are on the web anywhere. It's obvious what the News prints every day is a very small subset so if they really wanted to scare people they could make it sound much worse than they do.

There's also an incrasing number of African American citizens who've chose to move away from high crime parts of Buffalo into the burbs, so to attribute the crime concerns at this point primarily to racist white fear sounds like very superficial analysis. I'm not saying you consider it the primary reason, but from your comment it looked like that might possibly be what you're implying. There's some racism everywhere unfortunately and Buffalo is no exception especially in some neighborhoods here. But I really don't think the Bflo News exaggerates it or over-reports crime. As I said, they report a lot less than happens. If I believed creation of more arts and culture orgs are a useful solution, I'd be all for adding more.

Atwater, thanks for clarifying. If Brown can return traffic to Main than he has worked miracles. I sincerely believe that traffic on mian will dramatically turn around downtown. It will open everything up.

The city need to do this one block at a time, ans watch how fast business and res development falls into place.

I will be waiting to see the progress this July.

mmjazz - I don't think it is a war zone in downtowm. There is crime in every city. Keep reading the buff news, they usually post the location of the crimes

Yeah the new is rather annoying, I don't mind the paper so much as the blood sells TV news. I remember a couple weeks ago when that robbery happened on the west side and the guy from NT who came to do it I pointed out before we even turned on the TV to my suburban girlfriend that I bet they never one mention where the guy came from just that Crime happened on buffalo's west side today..

low and behold we watched the story on all three major news stations and not a single one of them mentioned where the man was. But as soon as someone from the East Side does something wrong... it's a different story "an east side man" robbed a bank here or there.

While many people don't consider themselves racist etc there are a lot of subconscious issues that still need bearing out. Myself included.

^ It is funny you mention that because I have more than a couple coworkers that honestly think I take my life into my hands everyday to ride the subway from downtown to work..

To get back to topic a bit a projects like the pierce building being renovated and filled with willing people to move downtown is a very important step to changing the mentality that some people have about our city. At least as these new residents interact with friends, family etc. They have the chance to tell another side of the story, one not based on TV ratings and selling ads.

Good point sbrof- There's going to be another Downtown Housing Tour on Saturday, June 28th. It is an opportunity for the public to see a dozen or so of the housing projects helping to transform downtown. Free. I'll start posting about the tour as plans get firmed up.

mmjazz - To answer your question to me, there might be some but I don't know of any web sites that publish police blotter type reports for Buffalo.

Atwater--How do I get access to local neighborhood news and police blotter?

What my previous comment referred to are printed neighborhood weeklies I've seen in a few parts of the city. Those list more than Bflo News does, but still limited to a few inches of dead tree paper space so they have to selectively filter too. I'm surprised there's not more published on the web by now around here. For many other cities there is. It would be very easy for all police depts to web-publish full daily info, since it's all public record.

About 'neighborhood news', it depends which places and types of news you're looking for of course. Sites and blogs often come and go, so I'd say Google around and see what you find.