Buffalo's Tobe Speaks to "Brain Drain" Study
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The Buffalo Branch of the Federal Reserve Bank of New York released a study recently that shows that upstate New York’s population loss is not any higher than any other region in the country. However, the study showed an unusually low rate of educated workers moving in.
Branch Chief Economist Richard Deitz explores this topic in the latest issue of Upstate New York At-a-Glance, “A Brain Drain or an Insufficient Brain Gain?”
Richard Tobe, Commissioner of the Department of Economic Development, Permit and Inspection Services, had a different take on the study after speaking with Deitz personally. Tobe is working hard to bring in and keep new business, and he feels that Deitz's exclusion of 21 to 30-year-olds in the survey seriously skews the results.
"We bring a lot of college students into this community, and we're trying to make it 'sticky' for them," Tobe said. "That's where our future lies."
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rickyrick
l left Buffalo because of it's DEAD Feeling downtown, no action, ignorant attitudes, lack of a police presense, and most of all Lack of JOBS. Small town with mostly small minds, who you know - not what you know will get you far in Buffalo.
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queenseyes
Is that you Rick in Columbus?
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StaggerLee
I don't understand this lack of jobs cry that people go on about. If you are halfway decent at what you do, you can make a good living here. I am 28, not especially bright or talented, and had no trouble finding/maintaing a great job. What I do is perfomance based, it's not like I flopped into an easy gig that you just have to show up for.
All of my friends that made it out of college and stayed here, have been able to sustain themselves.
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flyguy
I am amazed that the 21 to 30 year old crowd was left out. Does that make any sense? The issue is the young people leaving, all the new upcoming "brains" that will be the future of the area and buy the real estate. The 21-30 group has left in mass and it has to do with the fact that its very hard to find a good paying entry level job, or a job with any benefits. I'm sorry but taking a commission based job with no benefits with big college debt already staring youin the face is not for everybody and it certainly isnt for me. Its not the established people in their 30's, 40's and 50's that are in a safe comfortable place with family keeping them settled down but the young crowd right out of school that you really really need to look at because once the older crowd dies out you will see a massive population and housing loss because this generation simply isnt there to fill the space. You need to keep the younger generation around too. I think its more than downtown as ricky refers to but yes downtown still feels dead unless you're on Chippewa late at night or at a big event. Walk a few blocks away though and yes its dead and scary, often poorly lit and not a big police presence at all. During the day there are hustlers and domestic disputes going on right in the middle of Mani Street with people dropping f bombs in front of 5 and 6 year old kids passing by. I love the downtown development projects underway or proposed but there still exists alot of vacancy and worn down buildings that really need the economy to revive.
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sirchek
FINALLY! someone has it right.
The "brains" all haven't drained, many of them are still here. Those with four year degrees are the ones waiting your tables, selling you clothes, and answering phones. People in Buffalo have cheapened their worth of an education due to the lack of jobs as a trade off to staying in Buffalo.
I love Buffalo, I would love to come back, however without jobs of a higher caliber you won't see those who have left returning.
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flyguy
If I go on myspace right now and type in my old high school class of 1999 I can assure you that 60-70% are no longer in the Buffalo area, i've seen it. Its a sad state of affairs that so many people have left. In this i'm referring to my graduating class from Sweet Home HS. Its humbling to see how many classmates are not there anymore and now i'm another one, just down to VA last month for employment opportunities. I'm not overly happy about it and would have been very happy in Buffalo if I could find a decent paying job with some health insurance benefits in my field.
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flyguy
Hey StaggerLee I'm glad you found a great job in Buffalo! Good for you. How many people were also applying for that job? You were fortunate enough to be picked and that means everyone else wasnt. How long do you expect job seekers to keep looking without earning income before they start looking elsewhere? Its so nice that you were fortunate find work. dont tell me that everyone who left must have sucked and not be employment worthy because I found a very good job just fine down here in Virginia. Are you saying that the 500,000 plus young people that left out of college were smoehow not good enough for employment in Buffalo? That seems arrogant seeing that many of those people who left I know now work in Cleveland, New York City, Washington, DC, California, Atlanta GA, Raleigh Durham, Richmond, VA. They were good enough in those places but not in Buffalo huh? Many of those who have brains in Buffalo and are just out of college either had to accept employment outside of their field or are extremely underemployed and underpaid.
Things are great if you have a good job in Buffalo but its not as easy as you say for everyone and definetely not for 500,000+ persons that moved since the early 90s. How many times could you pack Ralph Wilson Stadium with the number of people that left the area?
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RonR
The next question is to ask why corporate America is not running to WNY and list those items. THEN FIX THEM ONE BY ONE.
-Pro Business Government not Pro Labor -Lower Taxes -Easier Development Policies -Less Government Interference
A lot of people think giving huge tax breaks or grants is the way to go. I am not one of them. While these things are necessary today, they do not correct the situation.
All we need to do is stop having labor and the leaders they get elected run the show and allow business to take charge. Give business 25 years and it will correct the damage labor has inflicted over the last 50 AND make positive gains.
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STEEL
Flyguy,
What is your field?
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BuffaloUP
I can vouch for the lack of jobs - I recently graduated with a Masters in Urban Planning and have a decent resume and have been unable to find a job in my field that pays a decent wage. I just took a job outside of the area.
As for those who do have jobs, they hold on to them forever because there is very little job market depth. aka another job to go to in a specialized or related field.
The Buffalo MSA has a condition called underemployment - workers with college degrees are taking jobs that only require a associates degree.. This is great for companies but really hurts workers
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Hospitable
Ehh... I don't think I'm upset that Buffalo is the way it is.. because theres tons of potential here.. (don't confuse opportunity for potential).. more so I'm mad that albany makes things this way.
Speaking of potential... take your citigroup example... and the thousands of applicants they had.. demonstrating how people wanted to stay here.
Being in college I think many recent graduates have this idealogy that they'll be making the big bucks after 4 years in school.. which isn't true of course, here or in any city. It requires more time or more schooling... that point being.. I don't think its hard to sustain yourself in the wny area... but its hard to better yourself... you get your entry level job and your experience and then what? I really wonder about the constant complainers and what they actually do?
and to my final point...its no secret that the city the worst shape of any municipality in the county.. and that there are more jobs in the suburbs...but suburbanites often name associate with Buffalo for the sake of convenience. As is all over the country....I'd be interested to see flyguy.. where exactly your friends in:
Cleveland, New York City, Washington, DC, California, Atlanta GA, Raleigh Durham, Richmond, VA.. actually work.. whether its in the city limits or outside
Its easy to say that you work in Atlanta, one of the largest concentrations of people in the nation. When you're actually working in the suburbs. ( Take a look at the population numbers of the actual "city" vs. the suburbs)
... because its no secret that this is a suburbanized country... and I've heard wonderful things about the job climate in Downtown Cleveland ( where my girlfriends from) or Richmond ( whom in my opinion is in the same boat as Buffalo, just south of the mason dixon line and in the right municipality)...
The actual municipalities of Cleveland, Atlanta, and Richomnd... aren't exactly models of excellance we should be following.
I think this article hits a sensitive point of the "city vs. suburb" theory
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nonono
Mr. Tobe is a dedicated public servant doing Yeoman work for our region.
The question I have with all discussion of this nature is this: What attracts and keeps people here that go to school is the comfortable easy and until recently, the relatively affordable quality of life. With a revitalized city we will have increases in all the quality of life challenges that face larger more affluent cities. Will that be PROGRESS??? We have attracted a lot of out of state real estate speculators which has driven up the cost of apartment rental substantially without any commensurate increase in wages or earn ability.
As for governance and business leadership, don't all our civic efforts and plans bloom from the same poison tree of corruption that got us here to begin with? Example: is the fact that Bob Rich golf's and fishes with the owner of Bass Pro a good reason to GIVE them our waterfront? Is it a coincidence that Mindy Rich sits on the Erie Canal Harbor Development Corporation? Would anyone civic minded or intelligent enough to recognize these abuses willingly stay or relocate here?
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flyguy
BuffaloUP i was in the same boat. I have a masters in urban planning as well and i'm out. If anything I think the area needs more fresh minded planners not less but they arent to be had. Isnt it interesting that when Tim Wannamaker came into the City of Buffalo planning dept there were only like 3 or four actual planners working in the city? Who the hell was everyone else? Political appointees? I'm totally guessing on this. I;m sure there are engineers, etc as well but a fairly weak planning representation i woulod say. Oh well i found agreat place to start my career and become somebody down here in VA
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flyguy
What gets me is that when I consider the number of planners in the masters program locally there are very very few actually from the Buffalo area. I was a planner from the Buffalo area and I have a very good knowledge of the area and still nothing. I am one of very few MUPs that came out of the area n my graduating class and still there was no mareket that offered a decent start wage.
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flyguy
I dont have an unreasonable expectation of a good wage either. In Buffalo with a masters degree and some internship experience, a good loyal work record and a year of corporate work I would have been happy accepting a job in the mid 30's with medical, vacation, etc. Never happened and now i'm even in a better position where I went.
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flyguy
OK I did it. I ran the numbers based on the assumption I made about those registered on myspace in my graduating class from Sweet Home in 1999. Currently there are 81 former school mates registered on myspace. Of those 81 students that lived, breathed, and populated the area 40 are now registered outside of the Buffalo metro area. Using just 81 of my former class mates it appears that 49% are no longer in Buffalo, almost half have left for one reason or another. Yes I overestimated but is nearly 50% ok? Really? In that micro study, at least 40 people are gone and thats just those who happened to have a myspace page. Multiply this across all the graduation years in the 90s and the 200s and we have a huge problem on our hands folks. Wher did 50% of my classmates go? Well...Cleveland, Northcarolina, Tucson AZ, California, Ohio, South Carolina, New York City, Chicago, IL, Austin TX, Atlanta, GA, Charlotte, NC, Rochester, NY, Lexington, Kentucky, Pittsburgh, PA., Georgia, Tennessee, Maryland, Oklahoma, Tampa Florida, Indiana, Denver, CO, Virginia. In all 40 of 81 are in those places just mentioned. Some of those places have a few classmates. Now i'm 26 years old and by this time we've been out of high school and college even for a small bit of time. Could there be a few PHds in ther? Maybe but certainly not 40 of them.
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pgf1948
A personal anecdote adds a lot to this site, but perhaps a lot of readers here, flyguy, just don't find your constant talk about yourself all that interesting.
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chiknlil
Holy shit.. you get a Masters in Urban Planning and expect to find a job in one of the most unplanned and disorganized locations in the country? Your inability to find a job in Buffalo isn't due to Buffalo, it is due to you. If you were truly passionate about your vocation then you would find a way to practice here. Your whining about not being paid enough for being an Urban Planner, a primarily civil service position, is typical of the over-entitled 20 something cry-babies who suckled on their mom's teats a little too long. You feel that because you did everything that you were supposed to do, that you should get what you want. You studied and graduated, now where is your job, right? Well it is time to grow up and face the real world. Many of the 40 something and 30 something generation also left Buffalo because there were no jobs, but it wasn't because of Buffalo's failure, it was due to more enticing, interesting, and profitable MSAs elsewhere in this great nation. My friends and I moved to Seattle, Atlanta, and Boston to find jobs. We took risks with start-ups and internet companies, we worked for start-up companies, and yes many of us waited tables and answered phones. It paid off for many of us, like my friends in Buffalo who moved back after profiting on investments and stock options. We live large in Buffalo and many of us do our own things, free-lancing on projects in other cities. The opportunities are there, but they won't be handed to you. You have to take risks and make your mark, you need to be competitive, not complacent. You need to show some testicular fortitude and advocate for yourself. Good luck in Virginia, the land of the superficial and hollow people, you will think that you are doing well, but in the end you might find that you are unhappy no matter where you are. It isn't the area, it is you!
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chiknlil
I thought this site was dedicated to Buffalo, not rich suburbanite cry-babies who can't get their own way in Buffalo.
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probuff
FLYGUY- I graduated from Amherst a year after you, in 2000. I also ran the numbers on myspace, and my class shows 28 out of 70 now living out of the area, so 40%. These numbers indicate an EIGHT percent improvement in ONE year! With that kind of annual improvement, we are going to be out of the woods in no time.
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Denizen
Graduates moving out of their home areas is by no means just a Buffalo or Rust Belt phenomena, This country has become a very mobile society. People hopskip across the country and change careers all time time these days.
My proposal to debunking this "Buffalo-only" outmigration myth: Run numbers on graduating classes from areas like Seattle, San Francisco, DC, and Boston. I'm too lazy to do it myself right now, but I bet one would come up with similar numbers, probaly to a sligtly smaller degree than MSAs with declining economies.
Also, I have to pick this apart...
In terms of the job markets in most American metro areas, the city vs. suburb divide is largely irrelevant. Most people drive their cars wherever the have to within their greater region to find work. The metropolitan region IS the city of the 21st century. The old horse n' buggy historical center city municipalities are largely relegated to being not much more than the cultural and social service center within a huge sea of car-dependent sprawl. These days, most citizens and businesses don't really give a rats ass what they are within walking distance or public transit access of. Sad but true.
In much of contemporary America, municipal boundaries themselves are rather meaningless beyond the mundane functions of school districts and municipal services. People drive each day over town and city lines without giving much heed to their existence. In the age of telephones, automobiles, radios, computers, and televisions, geographic constraint has much less meaning for most people than it did 100 years ago.
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rickyrick
With a horrble public school system, shady politics, a large percentage of time warped residences afraid of change and development, a downtown that has a void of retail or any sign of life aside from the noon rush and weekend bar scene, no police presence, large neighborhoods that are unsafe/vacant and withen wallking distance of downtown (not a good look for the visitor's staying at any downtown hotel who deside to walk down a wrong street), high unemployement, bankrupt city, a control board for both the city and county, no CITY Development plan (or at least a NON Suburban plan for the CITY), promised plans that NEVER happen, and so on.......Ummm I think these reasons may also contribute to why so many leave.
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rickyrick
and so true to the Urban Planning comment. In a city that is afraid of change and seems to only be Renovating than building NEW, where would one with this degree plan on doing here? A very large percentage of it's residences dont like MODERN or anything NEW. With no rush of people moving in (only out) what new developments can you actually be planning? ...How to cluster?, tear down? create more parks?
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Spaulding97
Hey flyguy, i graduated from Sweet Home in 2000. I lived down in Orlando for a year and it sucked. Moved back home and finished my degree and got a great job. I also know some friends that moved away after college, then have come back to find good jobs.
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moonshine
Well said chiknlil.
This area could use more technical/scientific/engineering folks, and far less "urban planners".
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oldimpala
Flyguy-
Strangely enough; I was one of the imported 20-something, well educated people, to Buffalo. I moved here, with my present company, in 2000, with an MA is Psych (Doing nothing in my field), as a promotion. I assumed it would be what RickyRick procliamed Buffalo to be; dead, stupid, cold, snowing, and just a horrific place to be, but I was making crazy money, and figured if i hated, I could transfer out soon. A family friend, a UB Law School Grab, actually talked me into moving here, told me I'd love it, and he wasn't kidding.
Now, after 7 years, I'd take a pay cut, even significant, to stay here. And, I'm halfway through an MBA at UB. It's not the city, it's what you make of it. And Buffalo gives you a lot to work with..
As far as RickyRick's comments, I come from a city (Originally), and have family all over a city far bigger than Columbus, or most likely wherever he's writing from, Philadelphia. Philly's great; but believe me, I'm much happier here. Expense, commute time, crime, dirt, and the people all make Buffalo a better place.
-Andy/Oldimpala
PS: I also spent time in Alexandria, VA, and Raleigh. Good jobs don't fall on you, you work to get 'em. And Buffalo's worth working for....
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oldimpala
Apparently, I've forgotten how to type, or speak English.
My apologies for the typos in the note above; I can't go back and edit it, it seems.
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Hospitable
Well said chicknlil... I've got lots of friends who are civl service graduates. (i.e. planning, teachers, cops, etc)... who are the worst complainers out of everybody I know... who says just b/c your a civil servant you should have a job where you want.. especially in nys where the benefits and the money are excellent wage wise!!!
Denzien... I was trying to say that exactly.... it seems to me that a lot of the cities I've visited and a few on taht list are not in much better condition than perhaps.. buffalo. It seems as if numerous american cities are just what you said 'heavily subsidized" places of culture and governmental business. It's very easy to say that you work in "Cleveland" when actually living and working in Shaker or Alpharetta when you work in "Atlanta". When in reality.. the suburbs of both cities outpopulate the actual cities dramatically.
I'd be more than confident to say that many of "flyguys" friends who work in these major cities.. are in fact suburban workers who claim "Atlanta" as their home.. just by the sake of name association.
What I was trying to say.. is that numerous cities across america are on the same list as buffalo... subidized cores.. some business.. much government.. and culture.
Long story short.. how can you bash buffalo.. when in all reality.. i think a lot of the out of town complainers on this site.. are purely 100% suburban.. who bash proudly from their southern suburban homes.. when in fact they don't live in an actual city themselves...
and I agree completly... METRO IS THE WAY TO GO.... but thats at least 100 years away here.
and I'm sure basing studies on MYSPACE.. ARE COMPLETLY SIGNIFICANT AND ACCURATE...MUST BE A SOUTHERN THING
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Hospitable
another thing.... some of these posts rreallly make no sense at all.. what so ever. Are you trying to tell me taht there aren't low wage service workers in any other college town in the nation there SirCheck?
Realize that anyone who has to put themselves through school has got to take jobs they don't view as a carer...
Do you not have college graduates in Pompassland working at Fridays or the Gap... wake up.. its what college kids do... do you expect ppl to get jobs directly in their fields while putting themselves or paying off school??
I'd assume the only type of person who doesn't know the answer to this question.. would be one who never went or one who had a healty subsidy available from mommy and daddy
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flyguy
First off I am not a rich kid from the suburbs. At best i was a lower middle class kid from the suburbs. I grew up off of Harlem Road in Cheektowaga in a small cape cod and then ended up in the Sweet Home district half way through my upbringing. I am not even close to a rich suburbanite and frankly the kids frmo the Tonawanda portion of the Sweet Home district couldnt afford to keep up with the "richer" kids in the district. I am not rich, was never even close to rich and you should be ashamed of yourself for assuming that. I am so glad everyone jumped on the bandwagon and called me a whiny cry baby. All i was donig was trying to point out the facts of my situation and what led me away from the place I love. For your information I tried to stay and out of college I accepted a corporate job downtown just to stay in the area. After a year I realized that if I really wanted to pursue my dreams that I would have to lok elsewhere and thats the sad thing about Buffalo, the fact that I and many more like me could not realize their dreams and had to go where the opportunities were better. I never viewed my first job out of college as my big career job, rather it was a chance to stay in the Buffalo area and buy time so I could hopefully find something more to my interests. That did not happen and I left because the more time I spent out of school and the more time spent away from my field the less marketable I would become. Say what you will about me. I am not being arrogant or nasty I am and have been simply telling my story. No my myspace "research" isnt valid of course but its just a quick glance of whats going on around here. You know its interesting that y'all ganged up on me when there are hundreds of thousands more like me that apparently have personal problems as one of the posts above had suggested. If you want to sugarcoat whats going on in Buffalo and deny the fact that the area is driving people away then kep doing that and good luck with that fairytale picture you have in your head about how everything is right and everyone that leaves is wrong.
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urbanesque
The area isn't "Driving" anyone away, there just isn't an opportunity for some people here. There are chemists and pharmacology graduates who move to New Jersey, Long Island, and Connecticut because that is where a lot of the drug companies are located. I wouldn't even consider the thought that our local drug companies let these UB graduates down, in fact I am thankful that these students spent 5 - 10 years in our area, studying and contributing to our culture and economy. This happens with every school in every city across the nation.
I do see a significant trend of 'victimization' and 'blaming' in Buffalo. It is a lot like those guys at the high school reunion who never 'got a break', they always looked at what others had that they did not, instead of taking an accurate and honest assessment of who they are, what they have, and what they offer. This is a phenomenal area, with great people, rich history, etc, etc, etc. We need to build on these things, instead of looking to the success of other cities as a failure of ours. The grass is not always greener, there are college graduates from WNY who move across the country to wait tables and work at wal*mart with the hopes that something greater will come along. My best friend in college took a job as a waiter in Aspen because he was interested in skiing, is it our fault that we do not have mountains? I don't think so.
I will give you an example of our victimized attitude, watch the crowd when the Bills lose a game this season. Bills fans and the press will focus on the impact to the area, not the fact that they lost a game against another team. Some people will draw on memories from 1989 and compare this loss to the superbowl loss, others will compare it to the Sabres loss last year. People will claim that Buffalo "can't win"... the truth is that we can't win if we don't improve our outlook and attitudes. We are facing many of the same struggles as the most 'successful' MSAs in the country, the only difference is how we let it effect us.
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annparkhurst
this is definitey an interesting debate to be having. rather than spewing off a bunch of statistics, let's talk about what many buffalonians know to be true... we all have some sort of love on different levels for our city. are parts of buffalo closed-minded and lacking in opportunity? of course; challenges which are not unique to the city of good neighbors. on the other hand, is there opportunity for specific fields of work? the answer is yes. i have many friends who graduated with business degrees and are working in banks. i have friends who have gone into nursing, or other sectors of the medical field. however, i graduated with a double major: history and social studies education. could i compete for a high school history position? the answer is no. and, it was defininitely not because i'm not a good teacher, it's because the market is too small, and since i attended SUNY Geneseo, I had no 'ins' as everyone does there when they get a position. let's say i wanted to follow the history route... get a job researching,writing, or editing. no chance there. but, could i have settled on a bank or small company position as many of my fellow majors from the area have? yes. many of my friends have found jobs similar to those... but many of my friends, especially in the arts, cannot find work and have moved to where there is more of a demand.
in sum: is there work? yes. of course, there's work if you want 'a' job. it's a freakin city for the love. is buffalo limited in its opportunity? yes. everyone knows this, and it comes out year after year in all of the statistics, surveys, etc. but, that's not to say that it can't change or it's not. we all love our city, whether we live in the city or in the suburbs. are some of us frustrated because we see what else is out there and think about what it could be? yes. and believe me, as a history nerd, i get very upset about buffalo's history.
one last thing: flyguy... i see no reason why you have to defend yourself here. i live in astoria, queens, and i agree with a very large part of what you say concerning friends and other areas. of course some of us would move anyway, because we like a specific geography or atmosphere, but maybe we wouldn't stay away. it would be comforting to know that after a few years experience we might be able to go back home to some sort of potential opportunity even if we didn't have a friend of the family with some sort of connection to a head hauncho somewhere. sometimes though, we have to move.
and that's the way it is. like it or not.
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