Buffalo Rising Online

I think that this house and this street make my point perfectly about architecture.

There are certain architectural designs which are timeless. They incorporate the landscape, the environment, the craftsmanship, the detail, etc....that people today desire.

There is a strong national movement away from the Vinyl McMansions and toward smaller but more quality/detail/craftsmanship which is a very strong argument for infill developers and communities to be aware. We can rebuild Queen Annes, Tudors, Empires, Gorgians and Prairies to blend in with the originals.

Bring back our street grids and our trees. Bring back the elements that made Buffalo a city par excellence in the nation.

Thanks for showcasing this street! I grew up not too far from there.

Tillinghast is like an elite (yet laid back) showcase of North Buffalo's craftsman-influenced architectural styles. Only, on this street, the houses are the real deal.These homes are the best examples of these styles done correctly.

I used to live on this street, and it was amazing. So quiet, no one bothering you. I really miss it now, it felt like "home".

L: Too often people forget how important healthy trees are to the City. Why not bring back disease resistant Elms?

Steel,

Tillinghast is a wonderful street, no doubt. Thank you for calling attention to its qualities. Could you please just highlight its beauties without the heavy editorializing? You make many generalizations that have absolutely no relevance or significance-- particularly from the standpoint of the English language. For example, what do the sentence "Incredible Streets like this one may have played a part [in} the city's eventual demise," or the phrases "mythic vision of the suburban lifestyle," and "unfortunately the American Dream did not provide any instructions for how to create such a beautiful environment" mean?

Perry,

I think the editorializing is spot on, and I think most readers appreciate someone articulating a point of view. Agree with it or don't, it's a rational perspective from someone who knows a great deal about this city.

And you understand all of Steel's points, but just disagree with them. Tillinghast, like Nottingham and Middlesex, are spacious compared to old-school urban living. That spaciousness - driveways, backyards, trees - led more people to want even more space, and suburbs were born.

Don't make it about the language when you really just disagree with his points.

Sorry, BH

Language is very important to me. Don't tell me I disagree with his points. I want to know what such glib phrasing means.

nice tour, nice street.

STEEL catch me on SSC.

Perry

Sorry, the editorialization will stay. If you have a counterpoint you are very welcome to leave it here. If you are not informed or entertained by the post you are free to move on.

As for the English language usage.....I don't pretend to be a professional writer and apologize for any errors. Also BRO is a small shop...meaning "no editors." One point I might make to you though is that one should be careful not to make mistakes in one's own usage while complaining about others miscues with the English language....for example I don't think that the English language has or can have a "standpoint"...its user can but the language cannot.

I believe that what I have stated in my post is quite clear in meaning. If you have argument with the post have at it. I will not be offended and we can have a good conversation.

Tillinghast is a very nice street... with it's shady tree lined sidewalks and Frank Lloyd Wright house etc......but I noticed a house for sale going for $399,000 and one earlier this year was for sale at a price of $499,000....that's crazy talk!

Tillinghast is in my top 5 of Buffalo streets. I even had a chance to visit the 2 homes for sale. Just beautiful! Being on this street, you can easily forget that you are in the city.

One reason the prices are so high now is because this beauty of a street was re-assessed by the City a few years in a row (if memory serves, this was between 4-6 years ago) and the resulting annual taxes/fees priced long time owners out of their homes. IMO, the high sticker prices are most likely unhappily displaced owners just trying to make back some of the money lost in the dramatic tax/fee increases.

Lulu,

The reason the prices are so high are because people are willing to pay a premium to live on this beautiful street. The two houses listed on Tillinghast mentioned by dumb jeff are at 65 Tillinghast ($399,000) and 79 Tillinghast ($499,000). The sales may be a result of some owners discontent with their reassessments, but the increasing sticker prices are market driven not tax driven.

BR

Haha... wouldn't it be funny if you could raise property values by raising taxes. NY would have the highest property values in the nation!

althought I do like the street......from a practical sense I would never buy a house that is more than double the cost of almost every other house on that street....it just doesn't seem like a sound investment.....but as Socrates once said...there is an ass for every seat.

dumb jeff,

I think most of the homes on Tillinghast will sell in that price range today (with the Frank Lloyd Wright house going for even more). In many ways, it is good to see the value for homes in the city going up.

I was just in the market for a home in the city. I ended up competing with buyers from the suburbs and even peple from the Toronto area. Who woulda thunk that!

My husband and I used to live on this street, and the one of the main reasons it's so beautiful is that the residents maintain it with pride. Tillinghast is a neighborhood unto itself with the neighbors keeping close touch and looking out for each other, protecting their investments in both real estate and quality of life -- something my neighbors in San Francisco, where real estate prices are insanely high, don't do. Not only are the houses great, so are the neighbors! :o)

drl,

Parkside is a great neighborhood with an incredibly diverse housing stock and two FLW designed houses. I'm partial though since I've been a Parkside homeowner since 2003.

Hope your search ended well.

BR

Formerlyat107Tillinghast kind of stole my thunder- i was going to say that one of the reasons Tillinghast has become so desirable and so exensive (for there are similar houses in other parts of North Buffalo that are much less expensive) is that Tillinghast has unified residents who are very active. A great example is how they managed to make the street one-way (I dont know when or how they went about doing this). Also, they always have seasonal decorations up on the streetlamps.

Rising property values, as seen by the taxing entities, are a good thing; as seen by anyone who wants to stay where they are, increases are not so wonderful. I have 2 neighbors who moved here 55 years ago; because 2 out-of-town opportunists ("investors") paid triple the going rate for identical houses, the 55yr residents had their taxes tripled. I expect them to be forced out, because of inability to pay the new tax bills. A simple fix: do NOT apply new assessments to existing owners, just because a neighboring house was sold for a certain sum. Reassess each property only when it sells.

ps - Yes, I said opportunists. I should have said "speculators", because both are already on the market for even more than the triple prices.

Its a lovely street but there are so many lovely streets in other areas too How about each week focusing on another corner of the city?

Reassess each property only when it sells. . . that sounds like a perverted structure to me that punishes new homeowners and rewards those who simply stay put. Why would that be a good thing?

If you live on a block where all the houses are selling for $200k, your house is probably worth somewhere around $200k. If you happen to buy it 30 years before for $30k, it's a little more than unreasonable to expect that you lock-in your $30k assessment forever and ever.

The result would be to raise property taxes even more for houses that change hands more recently, which would significantly dampen the local real estate market. And since 15% of the American economy is related to homebuilding, moving, house rehab, etc, that would be an odd aproach to public policy.

I completely agree with you mm'Kay...

This is happening all over the country and it is nothing short of SHAMEFUL. To penalize folks for staying put, paying their taxes, maybe raising a family and choosing to (godforbid), continue to reside in their HOME...It infuriates me! So I guess our "golden" years are to be spent working full time just to pay property taxes? Absurd. The American dream...yeah right...

What can we as citizens do? This has got to stop!

I apologize to all for getting so heated before and for getting off track.

I am currently living in Olympia,Wa. , saving $$ to move to Buffalo. You indeed have some of the most beautiful homes I've ever seen...I just hate to see what's happened with regards to real estate in this Country. Once upon a time, folks bought a house to LIVE in...now it seems it's all about moving UP (where???) and making a lot of cash...I hate to hear about it happening in Buffalo but I realize no place is immune to what we call Capitalism.

I grew up in San Diego and couldn't wait to get out in my twenties. I've lived in 5 States and have watched folks get "priced out" of their hometowns left and right and it just saddens me to the core.

You all have an amazing city, no doubt....but it breaks my heart (and I know I'm not alone) to know that one day in the not so distant future, a young Buffalonian who WANTS to stay and raise a family in his or her hometown, won't be able to afford a home.

It is such a fine line yeah? To want to better your own city knowing that it will be attractive to investors (opportunists?)

Oh sweet progress, what do we do?

olygirl, I have a friend in another state and when you turn 65 they freeze your property taxes and exempt you from school taxes. That allows seniors to stay in their homes until they die practically because any other place would be more expensive.....and the money they save is spent on repairs and home health aides.

Of course they cannot rent out the house even to a family member and they must reside in the house but thats a small price to pay. I think something like that would work well here in NYS but unfortunately in upstate we have the highest avg age outside of Florida....because so many of our kids have left...such a bold move like this might freeze so much property that we would be in worse financial shape.

I dont know the answer but I do think that we should freeze property taxes for seniors after a certain age....even if its 75...could make a good campaign issue since so many seniors vote....they should ask for it...AARP could use their local chapter to make it a campaign issue.

But getting back to the point of the post, it was in Business First today that a new Business Park is going up in Lancaster so here is another question worth pondering. How can we get those developers to build urban business parks in South Buffalo and the Eastside? How can we get those $300,000-$500,000 homes in the Suburbs to be built as infill within Buffalo?

drl,

you really think that today most of the houses on Tillinghast will sell for close to a half a million????? what are homes going for on Oakland Place these days, 2.5 mil?

Me,

I have done posts on several streets and neighborhoods ranging from North Buffalo, Parkside , Elmwood Village, and even Tree Haven in the far northwest corner of the city. I have a very nice piece planned for a University Heights neighborhood and another on a quaint secret neighborhood in the city. Last week I highlighted beautiful Timon Street on the east side (though regretably I have no quality images of that great street. If I have not gotten to your street I appologice but I am just one ordinary man taking pictures. Stay tuned though. The great streets in Buffalo are endless.

On another note, I looked up Tillinghast on Zillow and could find nothing over $400K. I think they topped out at $375 thousand. These prices are an extraordinary bargin for houses of this type in compared to many cities around the country. These houses would easily top $1M in Chicago for instance.

L, Thank you for the info! you have lifted my spirits :) There may be hope yet!

STEEL, I agree that these houses we are speaking of are bargains compared to say, Seattle (near where I live) or other major cities, no arguing that point. It just seems like a slippery slope when wealthy folks buy up these type of properties and then next thing you know, you live in a town where the average wage, or let's say someone making DOUBLE the minimum wage (Wa. State has the highest min. wage at I believe a whopping $7.63/hr.) cannot afford even a fixer-upper! This is the case in Olympia and countless other much larger cities. The average home price here is well over $200k, which is still MUCH lower than where I grew up (San Diego). You end up with huge, sprawling apartment complexes with no rent control, leaving folks with little hope of EVER getting close to home ownership, which we all know contributes to a more stable community. I am aware that this is a complex issue and one that won't be solved here...I guess as I'm just very sensitive about this particular issue since I have lived in 3 cities over the last 20 years where I have seen Real Estate spin out of control. I certainly don't pretend to have all the answers, I just think it's a subject worth looking at.

I adore BR and have heartfelt respect for what you folks are doing to create a New Buffalo, I just worry a bit about the downside of what we call progress.

Thank you for giving me a place to express this; I truly do want to see your beautiful city rise like a Phoenix...

"simply stay put", BH calls making a permanent home and a stable community. Yes, let's not protect the people who do that. Assessing people for what they voluntarily pay on the open market would be a bad thing, according to BH. (rolling eyes, here) .. Let us tax everyone to death, because of someone ELSE'S house price. The losers can always move to a trailer park, I guess.

olygirl, dont know how old you are but if it concerns you that much join AARP and then call your local elected representatives, tell them that you think seniors should have their property taxes frozen at 65 providing they reside in the property.

Unless Buffalo can keep the next generation with jobs...this city isnt going to stop shrinking and hemorhaging jobs...and as the seniors pass on thats going to leave alot of property on the market with few buyers.....that being said...we need to expand programs for new home buyers and we need to expand programs for our seniors to stay in their homes too.

L, I am 41, not quite ready for AARP but your input on that is much appreciated! It is something I will look into, after all, it won't be long before I can become a member :)

You're right about the job issue...jobs, housing, all inter-related. I am only speaking of my experience here on the West Coast where there don't seem to be a whole lot of high paying jobs either (unless you're in the high tech world) and houses are WAY out of reach for someone making DOUBLE the min. wage. From what I can see, someone making, say $15/hr. as a Truck Driver for example, could afford a modest house in Buffalo. Things are just way out of balance when 2 incomes can't even buy what 1 income used to.

I lived in Portland in the early nineties and although it was great from a job standpoint ,when Intel came to town, housing prices rose quickly and many young folks were priced right out of the market.

I don't want to sound like a socialist, but really, when does this madness stop? When the average American worker has to work 2-3 jobs just to afford a home? Is this what our children have to look forward to?

Sorry, this is not the forum for this and I certainly don't want to get booted off BR! I just feel very passionately about housing/job issues and where our Country is headed...Buffalo included...

I am heartened by all the folks who are working tirelessly to better their city...it fills me with hope...

And, I feel you mm'Kay?...although trailer parks out here cost MORE than a starter house in Buffalo!

property assessments should be frozen? reassess only when sold?

i suppose the cost of sevices provided to that residence could be frozen too, or perhaps noone in the police or fire department should get a raise until you and 2500 other people sell their house. we'll just hold bake sales to pay for everything. we could cap inflation all together... bread could still be a nickel a loaf.

GET REAL!

"A simple fix: do NOT apply new assessments to existing owners, just because a neighboring house was sold for a certain sum. Reassess each property only when it sells."

Why wouldn't you assess people what their home is worth? As property values rise in the city (AMEN to that!), city residents have to contend with rising taxes.....The TRUE alternative is to reduce the TAX RATE, not penalize new property owners. Why discourage those williing to invest?

I have recently purchased in the city for a purchase price more than the surrounding homes. My neighbors may have to pay more taxes in the end because of this. Supply and Demand drive the real estate market.

One of the things that I value about my street in Parkside is that there are a range of homeowners from young families to 40+ year owners to second generation owners. It is wonderful to hear old stories and have owners who provide stability to the street.

IMO, veryprotourism raises a good point about rising costs of services provided to all city homeowners, regardless of the length of their ownership. I think it would be fundamentally unfair that the rising tax burden be borne largely by new homeowners paying increased assessements while effectively freezing those of existing homeowners. Perhaps it would be more fair for the amount of any re-assessment that isn't due to the sale of the property or an improvement to be capped at a fixed percentage each year. It wouldn't be perfect, but it would prevent drastic increases due to rapid appreciation and give the homeowners some ability to forecast and budget for the expense each year.

Property assessments do not automatically go up every time a house is sold. As the value increases, so should the assessments. An unfortunate fact of life at times, but still it ensures that houses of equal value are taxed at equal rates.

one option that is being experimented with in Chicago is to retain the tax at a certain level for people of a certain age but that the difference would be paid when the house is sold.

This system recognizes that a person who has seen tremendous escalation in equity over the years is not completely a victim of increase real estate costs but that they may not be able to afford the new taxes caused but the increases. This way increased equity covers increased taxes. Win Win

Steel,

That's an interesting thought, but doesn't address a municipalities current need for cash. Another option for cash poor but house rich seniors may be a reverse mortgage to tap into the owner's built up equity in the house. My understanding of a reverse mortgage is that the owner gives the bank a mortgage on the house. The bank then makes payments to the homeowner over the term of the loan. It would provide income against the equity in the house. There is some risk in the resident out living the term of the reverse mortgage.

BR

veryprotourism, we are not talking about freezing the property taxes for all citizens but just senior citizens. You to one day will be old, frail, vulnerable and retired on a fixed income and moving at 60, 70 or 80 means giving up a whole support system of neighbors and friends. You cant possibly be that cold hearted neo-dickensian capitalist.

Considering the deals that we give to civil servants, unions, non-profits and indians...and the rate at which we are driving our kids to search for jobs out of state...you really want to kick the committed and stabilizing influence of seniors out to the sidewalk.

If so maybe you should show that level of ruthlessness in reforming our local government. Volunteer for the control board...do something usefull.

BuffaloRox,

The first thing that also popped into my head was reverse mortgage and how that could help.

My search for a place did lead me near the park (on Middlesex). I am still waiting to move in. It was important to live very close to the park. My wife (California transplant) loves to jog so it'll be perfect.

Believe it or not, I have nutty friends here in Buffalo that discouraged me from Tillinghast because it had too many trees and it is one-way.

They were the same ones touting Spaulding Lake in Clarence. Ah well..

BuffaloRox,

The first thing that also popped into my head was reverse mortgage and how that could help.

My search for a place did lead me near the park (on Middlesex). I am still waiting to move in. It was important to live very close to the park. My wife (California transplant) loves to jog so it'll be perfect.

Believe it or not, I have nutty friends here in Buffalo that discouraged me from Tillinghast because it had too many trees and it is one-way.

They were the same ones touting Spaulding Lake in Clarence. Ah well..

It's all about choices.

We could choose to freeze property taxes for people once they buy their house (mmkay's proposal) or we could simply freeze them when someone reaches a certain age (L's proposal), but when we do that, we automatically raise taxes for new homeowners and/or younger homeowners. It's a zero sum game, so everyone can point to how great it would be to treat our seniors with respect, and they are on a fixed income, and blah blah, but recognize that there are consequences to effectively lowering their tax rate - and that's to raise someone else's.

Obviously, it would be great for the WNY region is the tax burden was lower across the board - who wouldn't vote for that. In the meantime, to make a choice to lower the property taxes for those who reach a certain age or those who have purchased their houses a long time, and necessarily raising taxes for new homeowners, seems like an odd choice for region trying to bring people back home.

399,000 for a house on Tillinghast is a bargain. I wish I could afford it.

BH but on the other hand I have said it many many times in the past that frugality and responsibility dont get rewarded in NYS...whatever savings we have are simply siphoned back to Albany by freezing or lowering state aid....atleast a tax freeze for seniors could be defended in albany...lowering property taxes for everybody doesnt work unless it happens across the entire state.

And by the way there are plenty of programs for first time home buyers so...unfortunately in the US its always the people in the middle that get screwed.

No, new home buyers would NOT be charged more. Why would they? The rate is the same for everyone. Nobody even suggested charging MORE per thousand for new buyers. You pay, voluntarily and on the open market, $75K for your house in 2006, then you should be taxed on $75K. There is no reason or excuse to tax your neighbor @ $75K, if she bought her similar house for $22K in 1970 or $10K in 1950. The government's budget needs to match the available tax revenue, NOT the other way around.

Property taxes are regressive, destructive of the community, and need to be controlled, especially in the city of Buffalo where many home owners have very limited income. "Rising property value" has absolutely NO positive meaning to anyone who never intends to sell.

We can just dismiss social responsibility and a progressive tax policy as "blah blah", according to some selfish and clueless people, or we can force the City to spend within its means. The current property taxing system is not working, even though many homes and businesses are overtaxed. The body has been sucked dry, and it's past time to find new ways to fund municipal services, without killing the city itself.

So you argue that taxes should be lower across the board. Very insightful. Find me someone who disagrees with that and let me know.

Back on planet Earth, and certainly in Erie County, it's a zero sum game, so we don't just get to make the easy choices and pat ourselves on the back. If the county were to lower property taxes on people who've been in their houses for 10+ years, some other revenue source has to go up. That's the reality.

And I'm all for a very progressive tax policy - let's go with a straight 18% sales tax across the board and scrap the property tax system. That way people who spend more, pay more. Consumption is taxed, and conservation is encouraged.

Do you think we might hear some bitching and moaning about that proposal from everyone who bitches about everything else? Do you think the AARP would get on board with that deal? Yea, I don't think so either.