The West Side vs. Black Rock – Which Neighborhood Should Die?

The West Side vs. Black Rock – Which Neighborhood Should Die?

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Think Financial Student Loans

That is the real question when considering the rival bridge proposals presented as the options for Buffalo’s international crossing to Canada. It’s harsh, I know, but that is the reality of it. Neither group wants to say it, but that is the result of either plan for a new bridge as proposed. Either a large portion of the West Side is demolished so that a new, full-scale, bridge plaza can be built for the Peace Bridge, or a huge plaza is built surrounded in a looping maze of ramps from a bridge in the International Railroad corridor directly behind Tops at Grant and Amherst Streets in Black Rock, right across the street from another residential neighborhood.

What the Ambassador Niagara Bridge group does not want the average Buffalonian to know is that there is a neighborhood directly across Amherst Street from their proposed bridge plaza. Actually, the plaza would literally be in the backyards of homes on Amherst Street. They focus on presenting their plan as cleaning up a brownfields site in an industrial area. Problem is that this is Buffalo, and former industrial areas happen to be directly across the street from current residential areas. So, the Ambassador Bridge alternative really is not even that. It is a choice to demolish one neighborhood, or saddle another neighborhood with the effects of a huge customs plaza.

AbassadorPlazaProposed590.jpg Proposed Ambassador Niagara plaza looking west.

Quite a fun predicament created by two competing groups that both say they are right, they have the right solution, at minimal impact to our community. Unfortunately, as is often the case in a situation such as this, neither proposal is a solution. Buffalo is once again faced with a problem that comes from a lack of good and forward thinking planning. For too long in Buffalo, we have ignored urban planning as a legitimate undertaking, and that is the reason why we end up in situations such as this.

The real solution would be to look at the existing transportation infrastructure in the City and region, since this is not just a City problem, and truly determine where the best location for a bridge is. Now, I know what you are going to say, “another plan!”. See that is the problem, we never actually planned any of this in the first place. Planning was done by each individual group, each with their own preconceived notion of what the outcome should be. That is where the cart fell off from the horse.

The Greater Buffalo Niagara Regional Transportation Council (GBNRTC) is the group that should have undertaken the planning for a new international crossing. The GBNRTC is the regional Metropolitan Planning Organization for the Buffalo – Niagara Metropolitan region. They are the professional transportation planning group that exists to develop transportation plans for the region. Yet, they are not the group that was put in charge of this process, so now we are stuck with the choice of one City neighborhood versus another. Not a good choice. One neighborhood may appear to lose where in fact, we all lose.

PeaceBridgePlazaLayout400.jpg

As an urban planner working with the Black Rock – Riverside GNPA, I can say that there are citizens in the neighborhood that are not opposed to the concept of a bridge in the International Bridge corridor. The GNPA is opposed to a massive plaza devouring a prime development site, which consequently has been identified as the possible focus for future Buffalo State College expansion. The plaza would not provide any economic benefit to the Black Rock community, just as the Peace Bridge plaza has not provided much, if any benefit to the community that it exists in.

The real opportunity, as a commenter to Queenseyes’ article pointed out, would reside with the creation of an ‘inland port’ in an industrial area in the Tonawandas, directly off the rail corridor that cuts through Black Rock, Riverside, and Tonawanda. If all that existed on the brownfield site that Ambassador Niagara proposes for its plaza was ramps to a new roadway in the rail corridor with dedicated truck lanes going to this multimodal ‘inland port’, then maybe the Black Rock community would take the new proposal into consideration. But if the plan as presented is the only option, Black Rock and Riverside will be left to fight the Ambassador proposal with the same tenacity that the West Side is fighting the Peace Bridge plaza proposal.

It is a sad commentary, that as usual Buffalo is placed in a position such as this. It is the typical “caught between a rock and a hard place” scenario. Thankfully, neither project is at the point of construction yet, so no lasting harm has yet to be done. There is no guarantee that if the Ambassador Niagara group was able to build their bridge that the Peace Bridge would not be expanded leading to the full-plaza scenario. That is the final point that I want you, as the reader to consider, these projects are completely independent of each other. They can both be built, neither can be built, only one of them might be built. As things exist today, there is no rational planning occurring on a regional level as to Buffalo’s international crossing. This has to change so that we can move forward. Otherwise, we will be fighting over this issue for another 15 years, in which Detroit will have figured out their international crossing problem and will have taken a greater share of our cross border trade.

AmbassadorAerial590.jpg Overview of Ambassador Niagara project corridor.

Modified images from: Ambassador Niagara Presentation, Peace Bridge Expansion website (http://www.peacebridgex.com), and Google Earth.

HOlcberg

What Others Have To Say

  1. mjman4

    0 ratings12345
    Oct 19th 2007, 08:58

    why would you dump traffic onto the 198? i would take the destruction of the west side over increased traffic/ usage on the of the scajaquada.

    There could be a a win/win here, the report identified 8 historic structure that would have to be razed to accomadate the site, why not "move" them into the surrounding neighborhood, and relocate 25% of the other "worthy" peices of architecture there, to reinforce the surrounding neighborhood? i know it is pie in the sky, but so frankly are these proposals...so why not speculate!

  2. icecreamsub

    1 ratings12345
    Oct 19th 2007, 08:59

    why can't the Town of Tonawanda die instead......vast land north of Sheridan drive off River road is basically a wasteland, "literally", anyways right now. With the infrastructure in place already with the 190 / 290 it seems to make sense. Has anybody thought of what would happen to the properties over in Ft. Erie if this Ambassador plan went through.....many homes far nicer than the ones on our side would be destroyed. America comes first I guess

  3. comptart_lws

    4 ratings12345
    Oct 19th 2007, 09:17

    The not-at-the-current-site folks I know are reasonable people. The Ambassador Bridge group seems willing to work WITH citizens and agencies, the PBA does not. How 'bout the ABG arranges a tour bus on which members from Columbus Park, Black Rock and Ft Erie tour all 3 locations with maps in hand? It's about time someone brought people together instead of pitting them against one another (shame on you Stip, for that headline).

  4. Sexy_Beast

    1 ratings12345
    Oct 19th 2007, 09:18

    From what I heard there would be minimal truck traffic increase on the Scajaq and the trucks would be diverted to the 190. Planners have taken into account the eventual downgrade of the 198. In the West Side proposal the trucks would be idling in the backyards of the neighbors and the wind patterns off the lake carry the fumes inland. It would be good to hear from more Canadians on the Black Rock site. The town lost the fight to land the Erie Canal. Maybe it can make up for the loss with an interational border crossing.

  5. MeliQ

    1 ratings12345
    Oct 19th 2007, 09:20

    Wow, this is quite the conundrum! I did watch the Ambassador Bridge Authority's PowerPoint Presentation (you can find it on the web, I don't remember where I found it) and it was very convincing for their side of the argument. However, except for Columbus Pkwy, that area of the West Side is in VERY BAD shape (I know I justed to work around there at a public service agency). The fact remains that this bridge has to get build soon either way. We are and will continue to lose so much money, business, tourists, commerce, etc. that no matter where is goes, there will always be someone who is upset but we have to think of regional business growth as our primary concern for the betterment of our overall economy.

  6. SLEEPL8

    0 ratings12345
    Oct 19th 2007, 09:42

    icecreamsub....a bridge that far north might not jive with the ifrastructure in Ontario. Sadly there is no win-win situation for this. I think the ambassador plan is the best propsal yet. Am I correct in thinking that the Ambassador plan provides for the lowest residential destruction?

  7. vavoom

    2 ratings12345
    Oct 19th 2007, 09:46

    Spare both neighborhoods and put the inspection station on Squaw Island and a park on the Brownfield site.

  8. kbcobra

    0 ratings12345
    Oct 19th 2007, 10:03

    MeliQ - I agree, that part of the west side (proposed expansion PBA) is in VERY rough shape, I dont know what it is we would be losing ?

    On a side note, in regards to the loss of business/tourism, has anyone gone to the Galleria mall on a recent weekend? I was there last week and the parking lot was FULL, and 75% of the vehicles were from Ontario. I personally would not wait at the peace bridge to go shopping (last time I crossed about a month ago it was a 2.5 hour bridge wait), I just hope our Canadian friends continue to deal with it until something is done. Buffalo needs the additional revenue.

  9. Biniszkiewicz

    8 ratings12345
    Oct 19th 2007, 10:06

    To assert that the Ambassador proposal will 'kill' Black Rock is ludicrous. It is hyperbolic hysteria at its worst, a farce, a slap in the face to common sense. This misgiven notion is 180 degrees out of step with reality.

    First things first: IF the Peace Bridge plaza is to be expanded at its current location, then it is better to take the opportunity now to connect the bridge to Niagara Street while retreating from the park Frederick Law Olmsted characterized as the crown jewel of our park system. Niagara Street can benefit from vehicular traffic syphoned off the bridge. This will require the demolition of several blocks of neighborhood. That's a shame. Yet the further north one goes near the bridge, the more commonplace and deteriorated the neighborhood. The ideal is not to drastically expand the current plaza site in any direction. The ideal is to relocate the current plaza off the park to a site which can better benefit the local community and to minimize the footprint and environmental impact of such.

    But with regard to the assertion that Black Rock would be sacrificed for the sake of the Ambassador proposal, give me a break!

    Black Rock is an ideal alternative. Far from destroying the surrounding neighborhood, this location brings with it every capacity to substantially benefit the surrounding neighborhood. A few points:

    1. The Black Rock site is at minimum three times as large as the largest Peace Bridge proposed site. Lots of room for ancillary operations could better benefit the surrounding community. Jobs from warehousing and intermodal transportation are likely here, but impossible at the landlocked Peace Bridge site. The immediate neighborhood is bordered by many underutilized industrial sites which would be attractive to border focused development. At the current location, the bridge plaza does not have the capacity to tie in to local opportunities for development (one of the motivations for bringing the plaza to Niagara Street as opposed to isolating it in an island of parkland).

    2. Buffalo State's path of expansion: IF and WHEN Buffalo State should EVER desire to expand, lo and behold there is AMPLE land upon which to do so immediately ADJACENT to its campus, immediately south of its campus behind (west of) the Richardson complex. There's plenty of vacant land there now and more to come via demoltion of some of the psychiatric center's more dilapidated and unimportant structures. Does anyone in the world see Buffalo State jumping over Dart Street, then jumping over the Scajaquada expressway in order to occupy the polluted former industrial sites on Tonawanda Street? When? 100 years from now?

    3. The Black Rock site offers the opportunity to amplify trade (and jobs) via intermodal operations: connect road trade to rail trade. The Peace Bridge site cannot match this opportunity. Consider too that substantial federal funds are available specifically geared toward intermodal transportation developments.

    4. Steve presents this Black Rock neighborhood as some valiant yet vulnerable community in danger of being sacrificed to the gods of trade. Yet not a single home will be destroyed in the Ambassador proposal. The proposal involves land already zoned 'industrial' (as opposed to parkland and neighborhood, like the Peace Bridge), already polluted, already a decayed eyesore.

    Amherst Street will indeed become the border between neighbhorhood and the Ambassador plaza, but this will help, not hurt Amherst Street and its surrounding community. Driven Amherst lately? Amherst Street between Elmwood and Grant has been on a wonderful, slow upward climb ever since Wegman's opened (Tops helps too). Amherst Street west of Grant is a tough love kind of neighborhood. The neighborhood between Niagara Street and Tonawanda Street, and then between Tonawanda Street and Grant Street has been on a very steady, very negative spriral for several decades. That decay continues today. I drive Amherst Street every single day. I drive the 198 every single day. The area which the Ambassador people propose to transform is one of the most decayed, depressing and polluted sites in the city. It is a black eye to every visitor, a red flag to every potential out of town student.

    There are two primary means by which the surrounding community can benefit from the location of such a piece of infrastructure: jobs and commerce.

    Jobs: low level workerbee postions, such as warehousing and package forwarding jobs can be developed IF there is sufficient land upon which to locate such companies. The Ambassador site offers that, the Peace Bridge site does not. These are precisely the type of employment opportunities which can attract residents to this type of affordable, yet redeemable neighborhood. Jobs help solidify a neighborhood.

    Commerce: Why has Amherst Street, between Grant and Elmwood, been staging a comeback? Wegman's shoppers with money to spend (remember the polluted industrial hulk Wegmans demolished?). In the same way, increased automobile traffic on Amherst Street west of Grant for the purpose of border crossing will give the commercial property owners there an opportunity to cash in. Retail needs traffic. Instead of a decaying strip of hundred year old vacant storefronts, entrepreneurs will be able to benefit from all the outsiders coming to the bridge on Amherst. A heathier retail strip strengthens the neighborhood.

  10. Jas

    0 ratings12345
    Oct 19th 2007, 10:14

    Buffalo State expand...what, their already enormous parking lot !

  11. cdubmoo

    1 ratings12345
    Oct 19th 2007, 10:33

    I believe that the Black Rock location provides a good alternative to an expansive Peace Bridge plaza and needs to be looked at more closely.

    However, the Ambassador Bridge plans as presented leave much to be desired. A maze of ramps that looks confusing to navigate. A bridge height that seems to be overkill. And I wonder with all these elevated ramps and tall bridge piers if it would be closed half the year due to icy road conditions similar to the Skyway.

  12. sbrof

    0 ratings12345
    Oct 19th 2007, 10:56

    well I doubt they are going to do anything with the pollution except for pave over it. Since there isn't any residential uses going into the site mitigation will probably not be needed. Leaving it locked up under asphalt only to continue to slowly leach into the Creek for god knows how long. Show me they are going to actually clean up the site first and I might be more inclined to their scheme.

    We are all forgetting that lots of planning and studies of the PB were done by the Urban Design Project. Check out their site. The Queen City Waterfront has an entire Volume dedicated to the Peace Bridge Debate. It doesn't weight multiple locations but it does talk about the existing site with some skill and gives us a good option. The problem

    Urban Design Project

    The existing plaza is NOT ON any of OLMSTED's Front Park. The Onramps that lead into the plaza which seem from the map above to STILL be there even with the new expanded plaza to the north. We are not gaining anything by this proposal. The PBA should keep the plaza there and therefore save more of the neighborhood from the total shift north that may be needed.

  13. sbrof

    0 ratings12345
    Oct 19th 2007, 10:58

    BRO - Are we not allowed to post images anymore?

  14. comptart_lws

    1 ratings12345
    Oct 19th 2007, 11:01

    sbrof: huh? I've been followiing this thread and am not clear on who is the "they" and which site you refer to in paragraph 1 — PBA? or, Ambassador?

  15. JimKane

    3 ratings12345
    Oct 19th 2007, 11:23

    Let's simply think about the difference in impacts between the two different proposals. The Ambassador Niagara plan will not take any residences or commercial businesses -- but the Peace Bridge will take five city blocks--that are currently occupied!

    Both projects will potentially impact neighborhoods, but how can you equate condemning and then demolishing 120 homes with NOT demolishing any and redeveloping what is now brownfields?

    When was the last time we allowed a state agency to take a neighborhood by the way? Think about it.

    Jim Kane - Ambassador Bridge Group

  16. magnum

    0 ratings12345
    Oct 19th 2007, 11:36

    Great Plan - NOT !!! lets take all our Canadian visitors by a sewage plant. First impression of Buffalo, a sewage plant complete with real odor. It will give "being stuck on the bridge" a whole new meaning.

  17. chris69

    3 ratings12345
    Oct 19th 2007, 11:43

    Well who knew that the incompetent minority/gender patronage appointment president of Buffalo State (HOWARD) would somehow be involved in the Peace Bridge / Ambassador Bridge conflict. Buffalo State has been refusing 10,000 applicants a year! Refusing $150 million in economic impact to the Westside/Black Rock community! Refusing to partner with local business and local colleges/universities to expand programs, bring more centers and create more small business incubators and outreach to the surrounding community. ON ONE HAND BUFFALO STATE HAS IGNORED GROWTH AT EVERY OPPORTUNITY AND IGNORED FOREST, GRANT, AMHERST, TONAWANDA, ETC.....BUT HOW DARE THE AMBASSADOR BRIDGE GROUP WANT THE SURROUNDING LAND THAT BUFFALO STATE HAS TAKEN FOR GRANTED FOR DECADES TO BUILD A BRIDGE....NOW ALL OF A SUDDEN THATS LAND FOR BUFFALO STATE!

    WELL HOWARD, IF YOU HAD SPENT AS MUCH TIME PLANNING FOR GROWTH AT BUFFALO STATE AS YOU DID GETTING YOUR HAIR DONE AND SHOPPING FOR POWER SUITS, THEN THAT LAND WOULD ALREADY BE SPOKEN FOR!

    WELL HOWARD, IF YOU HAD ANNOUNCED THE SAME 40% GROWTH RATE AS UB THEN THAT LAND WOULD BE SPOKEN FOR BUT YOU TOOK THE WESTSIDE AND BLACK ROCK FOR GRANTED AND KEPT THE COMMUNITY IN THE DARK JUST LIKE YOU DID WITH THE BURCHFIELD PENNY. ITS A SIGN OF ARROGANCE AND INCOMPETENCE! FURTHER EVIDENCE YOU SHOULD RESIGN OR BE FIRED!

    It seems like the place for the bridge expansion is Grand Island where there is plenty of land for a truck plaza big enough to last for decades and its right off the youngmann which is a plus because there is a significant cross border traffic coming from the East-West Thruway.

    The truth is that neither the Peace Bridge expansion or the Ambassador Bridge will be accepted by the community without SHARED BORDER MANAGEMENT. Other than Grand Island, there is no community in Buffalo that can handle the acreage of the kind of plaza being demanded.

  18. Ontario

    1 ratings12345
    Oct 19th 2007, 11:52

    Excuse me, but what do you think your Canadian visitors see now? We're stuck on the bridge, with you and the trucks, then we're stuck in the plaza, with you and the trucks inhaling fumes. Then we get the heck out of there onto a highway that takes us to, um, Galleria Mall or the Airport or to hockey/football. Occassionaly, some of us brave through the maze of one way streets to enjoy some form of the arts. We know how to get there but aren't really excited about stopping and exploring because heck, the neighbourhoods along the way aren't very inviting. The ABG plan takes the trucks, not the visitors, across Squaw Island and because of the large size of truck pre-clearance facilities, it looks to me like there won't be any trucks stuck on the bridge.

  19. comptart_lws

    1 ratings12345
    Oct 19th 2007, 12:05

    Magnum: if you really understood the solution on a 2nd bridge at the RR crossing, you would realize that TOURISTS and local traffic would continue to cross at the CURRENT Peace Bridge and a reclaimed and beautified park and "front" to our city. It's the TRUCKS hauling cargo that would be directed to the other crossiing and frankly, I don't much give a hoot if they don't care for a view of sewage treatment facilities en route to NC and FLA!

  20. RonR

    2 ratings12345
    Oct 19th 2007, 12:06

    A couple of points I want to throw out.

    - I have yet to see any feedback from Canada on the Ambassador proposal. This will effect houses on that side as well. To me, it is only an assumption that the Ambassador project would even be possible. Until Canada says they are in either way, we can not put these two on equal stages. We have to remember that Canada already invested in a new customs plaza for the peace bridge. One has to ask, would they allow another plaza to eat up land and hassle residents even if there was no cost.

    -The Ambassador design is horrible at best. It is not close to a "signature bridge" and one of the main reasons the Peace Bridge has taken so long was to get the look approved. Unless I am wrong, there was zero feedback on the design of the Ambassador.

    -I think before people consider the Ambassador plan, there should be a clear understanding of the Canadian governments position on it. The reason I say this is the group behind the Ambassador runs the Detroit/Windsor bridge. Only a fool would think that there is not a motive for them to stall the progress on this crossing. By simply stalling the plans with some power point presentations, their profits increase. I still have a very shaky feeling about their intentions.

  21. jsimon

    0 ratings12345
    Oct 19th 2007, 12:27

    signature bridge already!

  22. JimKane

    3 ratings12345
    Oct 19th 2007, 12:52

    Well said Ontario! Thanks for your points. The Ambassador Niagara crossing would handle primarily truck traffic -- the real "public" benefit of our plan is that the Peace Bridge becomes a "car-only" crossing allowing for the development of a truly "international gateway" for the tourists, visitors, and local folks to develop and enjoy as a genuine "front door" -- not the loading dock that it looks and feels like now. The other ancillary benefit to the "public" is that with our plan the U.S. taxpayers will not have to fork (or should I say pork?) over to the PBA an estimated $75 MILLION dollars to close down and repair the Peace Bridge so it can continue to function as a truck crossing/loading dock in the most historic part of Buffalo -- "The Front." The greaest compliment the PBA has already paid to the Ambassador Niagara Bridge Group was when they also saw the wisdom of developing the "IRR" corridor and spent more than $1.2 MILLION (sorry - your tax bucks again) to actually buy land in and around the IRR corridor -- so they too could use this as future site for development. It was then we learned we had a viabale, feasbale and reasonable alternative to demolishing an historic neighborhood in the Queen City. Thanks for that PBA. Please check out all the details, including our powerpoint presentation at www.ambassadorniagara.com. Thanks -- Jim Kane -- Ambassador Niagara.

  23. comptart_lws

    2 ratings12345
    Oct 19th 2007, 12:53

    RonR — frankly, one of the things I like about Ambassador's approach is that they've put the Plaza issue FIRST not, as an afterthought to sexy bridge renderings that distract the public. I would like to think that they will do an RFP for a nice looking bridge by a qualified engineeriing team, when the time is right. Are you aware that Senator Charles Schumer invited them to this area to assess the region for a best alternative when the PBA wasn't so interested in looking at it that way?

  24. BuffaloRox

    0 ratings12345
    Oct 19th 2007, 13:16

    Everything that I've read in the Buffalo News and Buffalo Business First over the past couple of years has reported that the Mayor of Fort Erie is strongly opposed to building a new bridge along the International Bridge corridor. Opposition is based on the fact that the international bridge goes right through a residential neighborhood in Fort Erie. I looked at Microsoft Maps and noticed that while this is true, approximately 1/2 mile later is a big open area that could be used as a bridge plaza. I've also read that the Canadian government (not sure whether local, provincial or federal) has not approved the Ambassador plan out of support for the bridge monopoly granted to the PBA. I'm sure the fact that substantial improvements were made to the Canadian plaza are a part of that. If this is true and unless our Canadian neighbors change their minds, the location of the US plaza will need to remain nearby the current plaza.

    As far as the two competing plans, I'd be interested in how building a bridge on the international bridge corridor would not adversely impact the plans to downgrade the Scajaquada (from someone other than the Ambassador Bridge Group). I would expect to see a lot of pressure to keep or expand the capacity of the Scajaquada with the Ambassador bridge proposal. The Scajaquada is a direct East-West corridor to the proposed Ambassador bridge. Loads of fun for all the residents of the communities right off the Scajaquada from the 33 to the 190.

  25. AtwaterLouse

    0 ratings12345
    Oct 19th 2007, 13:21

    Jim Kane - seriously, now is the time to *greatly* increase your group's public arguments, not just incrementally so. Maybe past time for that. The comparison to Bass Pro situation is weak, since you've got to overcome the PBA's power and influence. For one thing, your web site needs real improvements. You should hire somebody top-notch and quick to make it tell the message much better than it does now. Also, more advertising and some appearances on local TV and radio shows, etc. would be wise. Good luck. You'll need it.

  26. Ontario

    3 ratings12345
    Oct 19th 2007, 13:29

    RonR Why are you setting a different standard for ABG than PBA? I thought $22 million Canadian tax dollars were loaned to the PBA and that the PBA will end up paying for the whole thing. (and who designed that ugle canopy that doesn't stop rain or snow? if that's your idea of 'signature' then....) ABG wants to build a plaza IN THE MIDDLE OF A FARMER'S FIELD which means no hassle, no neighbourhoods destroyed, no parks lost - your argument is more PBA crap. re PBA 'signature bridge' design, The Fort Erie people on the design selection team were at best PBA bobbleheads who approved what the PBA wanted. And your third paragraph is more typical PBA crap - start with one sentence and jump to a completely different point. The Canadian government has not given approval to either the PBA or ABG plans so why do you assume Canada should automatically be considering the PBA plan? Because you're an unPublic Authority? Why don't you get us a map of the Fort Erie houses you say are in the middle of the farm field and railroad tracks that ABG plan is going to affect because I don't see any. What I see is the PBA plan affecting houses on Queens Street in Fort Erie. And the new plaza's eliminated the whole of Walnut Street and that's slowly killing the Chinese Restaurants along that Riverwalk the PBA talks about being so important but nobody uses.

  27. bflorox

    1 ratings12345
    Oct 19th 2007, 13:42

    ...the most historic part of Buffalo -- "The Front." Jim, you haven't been paying attention, that designation belongs to Canal Side.

    chris69, what took you so long to post that rant? I assumed that was a permanent part of your computer's memory and was only one right-click and paste away from gracing the screen again.

    RonR, why would there be feedback on the ABG design? It's not public money building it. Do you ask for advice before getting dressed every day? No? You should, that shirt looks like hell!

    Speaking of design, whatever bridge is built, it better be designed to blend with the surrounding community instead of some faux, modernist albatross. It needs to be Terra Cotta in color, linked to Metrorail and have 1st floor retail as well.

    OK, done strirring now. ; )

  28. RonR

    1 ratings12345
    Oct 19th 2007, 13:52

    Ontario.....step back from the ledge. All I said was the Canadian side needs to be considered. If it is "N THE MIDDLE OF A FARMER'S FIELD" then there should be an announcement saying that CA is ok with the ABG plan if that is what happens.

    All my point was, and it was not intended to get your panties in a bunch, is this is a shared border bridge. It is not just what the residents of Buffalo want but also what the residents of Fort Erie want.

    Are you saying that it is possible that the Canadian government might not want to build the new Peace Bridge at the current site? Didn't the Canadian government just complete a plaza expansion at the current site? I thought is was just the US side holding up the process. Are you saying that even if the PBA plan is approved on our side, it is possible that Canada might reject it?

    I could care less what happens in Fort Erie. All I was pointing out is when plans are made on the US side, the opinion of Fort Erie and Canada have to match. I have yet to see anything for the ABG in this regard.

  29. impressingagent

    0 ratings12345
    Oct 19th 2007, 14:22

    that is the worst spot for a bridge to be, and if you were to drive through the area you might get a hint towards why its easier to bulldoze. This Ambassador bridge is just more fuss for an already catastrophic set of elevated paths.

    I still don't understand why the peace bridge project can not accommodate inspection underground and there by control the outlet and need for green space. It just looks like they are winding everything too far when they need to just close the circuit. If roads need to be closed to tighten up the project.. then so be it. bla bla bla.. beautiful new peace bridge for the community to travel through.

  30. JimKane

    1 ratings12345
    Oct 19th 2007, 14:33

    Thanks Atwater... "no mas" on that score....pls give me a call as to what more we can do on the website.

    And your right about the power and influence -- the "Public" Bridge Authority is made up of political appointees that perpetuate and fuel fundraising and the high-paying political patronage jobs (do you know what they get for pensions?) that gets the politicians re-elected and the "public" authorities out of "public" review or scrutuny for decades on end...the good news is Governor Spitzer promised to do something about them on Day One.

    We are private-sector owners, operators and employers of the largest and busiest international bridge crossing in North America. We have and will continue to compete using our own money AND on the merits of what we know to be the right answer to the international bridge problem here on the Niagara Frontier. Since we have not aked for public money the political powers that be just don't see any opportunity to leverage jobs or money for their own political preservation. So why would we get their support? (Try it sometime!) We knew going in that we would have to start from scratch and withstand the political pressure that both the BFEPBA and the Niagara Falls Bridge Commission would bring to bear on our being so audacious as to propose a PRIVATE-SECTOR solution in a community now under the control of NY state financial review boards in both the cuty and the county -- how outrageous is that!

    Do you think The Buffalo News or your congressman would care about that? Naw..... - Jim Kane

  31. sbrof

    0 ratings12345
    Oct 19th 2007, 14:46

    When I said they I mean the Ambassador group. There are few pollution concerns in the PBA proposal since those blocks were historically residential.

    I see the value in taking brownfields instead of decent homes on the west side but my fear is that unless these two parties work together and not against each other they are Both going to be for truck traffic and both are going to be detrimental to their neighbors. How can we, the public, be given the guarantee that trucks won't be using the PB because you know that they will want to if they are going to be heading south to the Thruway.

    Also if the Ambassador bridge is going to get the trucks, fine but the PBS is still going to want to expand. Instead if the trucks go to ABG then we dont need any of those onramps or such a large plaza and could essentially shrink the PBA's existing plaza, give us beautiful entrance here. Put people from the bridge right into Front park and the city grid. Just like in Niagara Falls. When you cross the rainbow bridge, you navigate through downtown and then get onto the highways. This deters NO ONE and it would have the potential to create a much larger impact on our economy. If they want to get onto the highways again to head out of town to the galleria etc. that is find, to go through downtown and hop on the 33 or 190 again. But at least they are provided the option to stay in Buffalo.

    The problem with this whole situation is no one is looking out for the greater good of the city and the ability that these two proposals have in reinforcing each other. If that happens I think there is a win win for everyone. Prove that we get a great entrance at the PBA then we can justify the damage to the Black Rock Neighborhood. Give us two ugly plaza's instead of one and no one wins except for the authority or private investment group collecting the tolls.

  32. RonR

    0 ratings12345
    Oct 19th 2007, 14:55

    JimKane,

    Some questions for you and your group.

    Will you guarantee that rates for your bridge in Buffalo will ALWAYS be the same or lower then your bridge in Detroit?

    What guarantees will you offer to ensure that your monopoly on the 2 most heavily trafficked crossing in North America will not hurt or harm commerce in Detroit and Buffalo?

    Will you guarantee your construction time line and offer up financial penalty's if this is not completed?

    Will you allow for public feedback on the bridge in terms of design, even if those considerations cost you more money?

    Has your group secured any commitment from the Canadian government to build out your project?

    Has your group secured any public feedback from residents in Fort Erie on your project?

  33. RonR

    0 ratings12345
    Oct 19th 2007, 15:00

    bflorox

    In case you can not see the big picture....here it is.

    If the ABG is chosen as the "plan" a SINGLE PRIVATE COMPANY will control the two busiest border crossings in North America. They will essentially control all of the shipping from the Mid West and Lower Eastern US to the South East of Canada. If rates were to go really high, the next crossing would be in Upstate NY to Montreal. That is a lot of extra ground to ship to Southern Ontario and Toronto.

    THIS IS A LOT OF POWER PEOPLE ARE WILLING TO GIVE TO A PRIVATE COMPANY. All to save some houses.

    People need to think WHY would they want to spend all of this money? It is to make money. The challenge is at what expense does the ABG making money...cost WNY?

  34. Ontario

    1 ratings12345
    Oct 19th 2007, 15:29

    I'd rather have a private company in charge of a new bridge anyday when the option is an unPublic Authority that believes its above the law.

  35. JimKane

    0 ratings12345
    Oct 19th 2007, 15:32

    RonR -- I can only "guarantee" that our bridge - if we are so permitted -- will be run like a business and with the same expertise and efficiency we now employ at the Ambassador Bridge - which every government agency we work with will tell you is second to no one in keeping traffic and TRADE moving as fast and securely as any bridge in North America. We have had and will continie to have open and public meetings and input on our plan in Buffalo and Fort Erie. " Commitments" from government agencies - at least the ones we care about -- don't come before they can review your environmental impact statements and we are in that stage as we speak.

    Thanks for your comments. -Jim Kane

  36. BuffaloRox

    0 ratings12345
    Oct 19th 2007, 16:40

    Jim Kane,

    The sight you referenced "www.ambassadorniagara.com" showed a northern and southern alternative bridge plaza. However, the birdseye view was so high that it was impossible to see how it would fit into the existing streetwork.

    Presumably, the Ambassador Bridge Group intends to tie the Scajaquada Expressway directly into the bridge plaza. Please confirm whether the Ambassador Bridge project using the international bridge corridor plans to tie the east and westbound lanes of the Scajaquada Expressway into the bridge plaza. If not, please explain what steps the Ambassador Bridge project will take to discourage truck traffic from using the Scajaquada Expressway. Does the Ambassador Bridge project support the move to downgrade the Scajaquada Parkway into a boulevard? If so, how will it demonstrate its support?

    BR

  37. viking

    0 ratings12345
    Oct 19th 2007, 17:11

    Re-build the International Bridge to accept more train capacity (one in each direction), make the bridge, truck traffic only, leave the PBA a bone with car traffic only (which it has capacity for and then some).

    Most people in the portion of Black-Rock in the designated area can't wait to be bought out, I know because I have talked to most. I for one am looking forward to the increased activity that can be brought back to the area because of this project. The area in question is now a crime magnet, with concerned property owners and businesses struggling every day to protect their assets. Inherently more police protection is guaranteed, homeland security may have a residual benefit.

  38. JimKane

    1 ratings12345
    Oct 19th 2007, 17:23

    BuffaloRox -- We support the downgrade (and say and show it in our powerpoint) and we have said so from the start. Our project could be the catylist for that to actually happen. We use the 198 ramps to access the plaza, yes. Keeping trucks from going east is possible by not provbiding a ramp for trucks to exit the plaza to get on the 198 going east. They would all have to get back on the 190 via 198 westbound and go from there north or south. We show this at our public meetings. Also, our project is consistant with and supportive of the design study being done right now by Wendell Engineering. I will try to get some better visuals and info posted at the website ASAP. Thanks for the comments - Jim Kane.

  39. RonR

    1 ratings12345
    Oct 19th 2007, 17:46

    Something stinks and it is not the Niagara River. Thanks for your comments Jim. Only reinforced my fear.

    This is a plan by a PRIVATE company to control the 2 most heavily trafficked boarder crossing in North America.

    Do you people realize how bad this is? They could single handily control trade between two nations. The could set their rates and companies would be forced to pay them. That is until them move.

    Do people know how much WNY relies on trucking and how much our little remaining industry depends on an EFFECTIVE BORDER. Not an effective boarder to get tourists but to MOVE PRODUCT.

    No thanks Jim. You and your company is a wolf in sheep's clothing.

    Anyone who is in favor of a SINGLE PRIVATE company controlling the two main access points between the US and Canada is a moron. If you want to talk about a different bridge somewhere else. Cool. But being in favor of a single company controlling these two crossings is stupid.

    Jim you can bash the Authority all you want with your one liners but your answers are just as slimy as our politicians.

  40. PBL

    0 ratings12345
    Oct 19th 2007, 17:51

    RonR
    You have repeatedly been asked if you are Ron Rienas, general manager of the PBA, since Oct. 5th and you have never answered the question!
    Let's be forthcoming, as Jim Keane, from the Ambassador group is.
    The public has the right to know if you are commenting here as the general manager of The PBA. In that case, you can not separate your job title from your personal opinions.
    If you are NOT, clear the record here.

  41. RonR

    0 ratings12345
    Oct 19th 2007, 17:59

    Never saw that question.

    My name is Chris and I live in San Diego. I work in marketing. RonR stands for Ruby On Rails, which is a programming language.

  42. ElmwoodBoy

    0 ratings12345
    Oct 19th 2007, 18:03

    Mr. Kane, why can't the plaza be further inland towards the 290? And, why can't the height of the Bridge mirror that of the International Railway Bridge, and function as a road more than a highway bridge?

    The Ambassador Bridge proposes an inland plaza way off the waterfront and away from neighborhoods in Canada, up near the QEW. Yet in Buffalo, it is jammed into the Tonawanda/Amherst St site, requiring a jolting drop of 100' from its peak height over the Black Rock Canal. This drop will cause the annual six million trucks to lay on their Air-brakes in order to stop. The trucks spiral their que around the Amherst St. side of the plaza, exhausting not from the center or west side but from the east side of the plaza. The nice quiet rejuvenation of Amherst St. between Grant and Elmwood is only hundreds of feet away from this. This is the neighborhood destruction laid out in the ABG's own drawings and plans.

  43. Ontario

    1 ratings12345
    Oct 19th 2007, 18:10

    RonR, I repeat: I'd rather have a private company in charge of a new bridge anyday when the option is an unPublic Authority that believes its above the law of both Canada and the U.S. The PBA is crowning itself and nothing could be scarier.

  44. TownLine

    0 ratings12345
    Oct 19th 2007, 18:21

    Grand Island

  45. RonR

    0 ratings12345
    Oct 19th 2007, 18:30

    Of course you think this Ontario. You and Jim both joined the discussion and only post in favor of the ABG plan. Gee, I wonder who cuts your paycheck.

    I never said I was opposed to a private company running the bridge. Let me repeat what I said for you...

    I am opposed to the SAME company controlling both crossings. The answer from Jim said it all. Let me quote him.

    "I can only "guarantee" that our bridge - if we are so permitted -- will be run like a business and with the same expertise and efficiency we now employ at the Ambassador Bridge - which every government agency we work with will tell you is second to no one in keeping traffic and TRADE moving as fast and securely as any bridge in North America."

    I asked if the ABG would do anything to ensure that the crossing in Buffalo would be the same cost as the crossing in Detroit. By his answer, I will take that as a NO and he will not guarantee that the crossing in Buffalo will be competitive to Detroit.

    I asked if the ABG would do anything to ensure that both crossing would remain competitive if his company were given the monopoly of these two crossings for commerce traffic. By his answer, I will take that as a NO.

    What few people realize on this Blog is how important this boarder is to the WNY region. A region that is already very fragile. Few people realize how many companies are located in Buffalo because of the location and proximity to an international crossing. Few people realize that if this crossing becomes troublesome or no longer remains cost effective compared to other crossings, these businesses will relocate out of WNY and to regions that have an effective crossing.

    We already have the cards stacked against WNY in terms of the economy and cost of doing business. If this "ace in the hole" is taken away, damage will be done.

    I am all for looking at other options of a boarder, although I think the current Peace Bridge option is fine. But if NYS and WNY allows for one company to control these two crossings, they might as fell put the other foot in the grave.

  46. Keith

    0 ratings12345
    Oct 19th 2007, 18:58

    RonR said, "We already have the cards stacked against WNY..." Ron you live in San Diego; you are not 'we'.

    Living near the border with Mexico and near the port of Long Beach, you should realize that there is no monopoly granted by owning two bridges. This is a big country with many ways to move things in and out.

    Besides, private companies are more efficient than the government any day. It is unrealistic to think that ABG would strangle growth when they need to make payments to their creditors for an expensive bridge that they just built.

  47. RonR

    0 ratings12345
    Oct 19th 2007, 19:41

    Keith....

    Your attitude sucks. Yes, I live about 9 months out of the year in San Diego. But I own property in Buffalo and only live in San Diego because of work. Work that does not exist in Buffalo. Shit heads like you bash on anyone who is from the area but leaves and then wonder why the area is not what it used to be.

    If someone who lives outside but is from Buffalo and cares about Buffalo to engage in local issues, you should welcome these people with open arms. WNY has lost hundreds of thousands of residents. Not every one left because they did not like the area. Most left because they had no choice. Your attitude of "if your not here you should not say anything" sucks.

    Your understanding of shipping is comical. These two crossings are the main arteries connecting Canada to the Mid West and the East cost. Let me say this again. I AM ALL FOR PRIVATE COMPANIES RUNNING THE CROSSING. I am against the SAME COMPANY controlling both crossings. If you can not see how that is dangerous, well then you are stupid. And if you want to talk about Monopoly's, your "example" is stupid. This is the same as controlling Otay Mesa and San Ysidro.

    If freight becomes more expensive to go through Buffalo, freight will no longer move through Buffalo. This starts a chain reaction. One of Buffalo's strongest assets for a future is this crossing. One of the reasons why Buffalo is not 10X worse is this crossing. Giving up this "ace" to a private company is not in the best interest for the future of Buffalo.

    Make no mistake, as a business owner, you do not spend money unless you are going to MAKE money. The ABG is making this move to have CONTROL. Now I am not a fan of any of the Authority's in NYS, But at least there is some chance of the residents of WNY, of Buffalo having a say with the future. If this crossing goes into private hands, the public gives 100% of any say away. All in an effort to spite the PBA.

    Fast forward 10 years from now. The ABG could raise the rates of this crossing to be twice the cost of the Detroit crossing. Being a private company, they could invest in other businesses that would benefit from freight crossing the Detroit connection. Do you think that they will care what the public in Buffalo thinks? Ask yourself how corporations have treated Buffalo when the opportunity presents itself to make money elsewhere comes front and center.

    When I asked if they were willing to put guarantees in place to ensure WNY and Buffalo would not get the shaft down the road, all I got was a guarantee that the crossing would be safe and fast. Guess what. COST OF CROSSING IS AN ISSUE!!! People complain how Buffalo has made countless mistakes in giving up the future for a quick fix. THIS IS A PERFECT EXAMPLE OF THAT.

    If you or other people can not see the dangers of a single company controlling both access points, well I just don't know what to say.

  48. cdubmoo

    0 ratings12345
    Oct 19th 2007, 20:33

    RonR - If the ABG builds, has high rates, and forces traffic to use other crossings... would they not need to lower their rates to stay competitive? Not all truck traffic will use the Detroit crossing. A shipment from Toronto to Pittsburgh would not use the Detroit crossing. If they were forced to use a crossing other than Buffalo, they would use the Lewiston bridge. If traffic continuously used Lewiston as their crossing ABG would need to lower rates to get traffic back. I appreciate your concerns for Buffalo. BUT I don't think that ABG would benefit by having extremely high rates. They would just lose traffic to another "public" crossing.

    Grand Island would be a good alternative for the US... but would our Canadian neighbors approve?

  49. Pauldub

    0 ratings12345
    Oct 19th 2007, 20:53

    Grand Island? Why would you pick possibly the widest part of the river for a bridge? I live here and personally don't care if it was built here, but explain the logic other than "We won't have to tear down houses"?

  50. Keith

    0 ratings12345
    Oct 19th 2007, 21:05

    RonR or Chris I should say, this is where our opinions diverge, "These two crossings are the main arteries connecting Canada to the Mid West and the East coast." We share a border thousands of miles long and our coastlines share the same oceans. How can it matter if the same company owns two bridges? They are competing against ports, rail crossings, air freight, regular no-bridge crossings etc, etc. They really don't have that much leverage by owning two bridges.

  51. pgf1948

    1 ratings12345
    Oct 19th 2007, 22:45

    My God! Why should any neighbohood, anywhere, die for a bridge, a stupid parking plaza, or a mixing bowl of highway ramps?

  52. viking

    0 ratings12345
    Oct 19th 2007, 23:38

    Ron R your ability to see the whole picture is limited, CSX already owns the rights to all the rail right of way on both sides of the border for all freight traffic east of the Mississippi and eastern Canada. I believe this is more about putting trucks on trains for long haul freight transfer. The bridge would be to accommodate short haul, the area to be developed would accommodate both freight inspection for short haul and a transfer station utilizing both trains and trucks. All of Black Rock would become a major transportation hub. The Peace Bridge area is not geographically or logistically suitable to merge these two aspects. Your objection to one private entity is really hollow, because the situation already exists. In reality, the Governments of both countries actually control the right of way and grant permissions to operate and any detrimental activity wouldn't be tolerated.

    Black Rock needs this project, the reuse of this area to a situation which really helped develop it originally is the smartest and best solution.

  53. comptart_lws

    0 ratings12345
    Oct 20th 2007, 00:57

    viking: you say "the reuse of this area to a situation which really helped develop it originally is the smartest and best solution." and I agree. Lately, I find myself thinking: "the Victorians were smarter than we are" too often. Why does the wheel have to be re-invented and 10 lbs of (sh*t) truck traffic stuffed into a 5# bag at "The Front" — when the bi-national transportation corridor PRE-DATED Olmsted's work?! The chronology is:
    1868: Olmsted and Vaux invited to Buffalo to design Parks & Parkway system
    1873: International Railroad Bridge completed
    1927: Peace Bridge completed as separate crossing (from the IRR) for pedestrians and new-fangled automobile.
    sometime later: huge-ass tractor/trailers become more prevalent than rail for transport of goods.

  54. Ontario

    0 ratings12345
    Oct 20th 2007, 08:11

    RonR, your passion on Buffalo issues is obvious and your commenting on other br topics too. And seems to me you've really studied these bridge plans. I'm just wondering why an obviously intelligent person like yourself is resorting to personal attacks to make a point. (I think you're the one who said they don't care about Fort Erie. Planning to build half a bridge?) I'm not the only one supporting the ABG plan at this point and ABG's open participation in answering questions and considering changes to their plan and wwwsite shows something positive to me. Your questions to ABG are valid. Where's the PBA stand on those same questions? We know they're reading this. You work in San Diego because you couldn't find a job in Buffalo. Basicaly, money. But by asking ABG and PBA to guarantee they're not going to raise their tolls you're asking them to limit payroll and pay increases. I don't think that's fair to the workers and flys in the face of what you've told us about yourself. Do you know the tolls at the PB have been increased in the last year? And that Rienas announced it in the Snooze before it was approved by the PBA board? Tolls are 3.50$CDN and 3.00$US even though the money is at par. Fair? I bet US tolls will probably go up to 3.50$ Awhile ago I heard a PBA study says consumers will complain at first about a toll increase but it doesn't affect the overall vehicle crossings. How about that since Rienas has been at PBA there have been no new full-time hires at the PB? The plan is to bring in private contractors to do all the bridge work - and you know how much those poor suckers get paid. Is that how to guarantee tolls? And what's so wrong with increasing the cost to consumers for product that leaves a carbon footprint 8000 miles long? Why should I eat Chilean products instead of buying locally? Not like the poor workers in SA are making much money. And maybe I haven't been as clear as possible on the ownership issue so let me try from this direction.....there are more than two crossings between us and if the private guys decide to become greedy then other crossings will be used and the free-market (because we do have choice) will work it out. But I'm thinking the main issue is whether or not our governments should have the ultimate control over the running of a PBA or ABG bridge and that the PBA believes its above the law.

  55. smh

    0 ratings12345
    Oct 20th 2007, 09:04

    For a history of and reporting of, including a cast of (shady) characters, Ambassador Bridge issues see:

    http://artvoice.com/issues/v6n42/trucking_buffalo

  56. JimKane

    0 ratings12345
    Oct 20th 2007, 10:18

    Chris, Ruby, Ron - whoever --

    Given you live in San Diego, I will forgive your ignorance about the real nature of the "Public" Bridge Authority and how they really operate here in WNY/ S.O.

    As any private sector business owner can tell you - -we are bound "by the rule of law." The "Public" Bridge Authority contends they are "bound by no laws" Do you get that? No LAWS -- and they spend millions of our tax $ dollars to keep it that way.

    Are you contending that a "public" bridge operator is somehow beholden to the will of the public? Or operates for the "benefit" of the people? That is laughable here in WNY. They have raised tolls repeatedly and without any public input whatsoever. Do you even know this?

    Again you are in CA. Maybe Arnold Schwarzeneger would not put up with that, but sad to say we are seemingly stuck with it here. Let me repeat my earlier comment on how this works again:

    ".... your right about the power and influence -- the "Public" Bridge Authority is made up of political appointees

    that perpetuate and fuel fundraising and the high-paying political patronage jobs... that gets the politicians re-

    elected and the "public" authorities out of "public" review or scrutuny for decades on end...the good news is

    Governor Spitzer promised to do something about them on Day One. "

    -Jim Kane

  57. chris69

    0 ratings12345
    Oct 20th 2007, 11:47

    Well this bridge isnt getting built in the next 15 months....and in 15 months we will have a new president of the US which means shared border management will be back on the table.

    So my friends and neighbors on the westside and black rock, you only need to keep up your vigilance for a few more months...and not forever.

    Remember that your not fighting either bridge but your fighting for shared border management which will allow the bridge and your homes/businesses to coexist.

    If else fails....I think we need to put bridge proposals on the table for Grand Island. Everyone knows the untapped resource for expansion into Canada needs to come from Grand Island. Bridges after Niagara Falls are significantly more expensive.....and bridges south of Grand Island reside in populated areas. Grand Island is the only place left in the region bordering canada with raw land to handle all the trade and expansion this region needs for the next 100 years.

  58. RonR

    0 ratings12345
    Oct 20th 2007, 14:10

    JimKane,

    Maybe you should run for office. You are just as good at talking out of your ass as any appointed member of the authority. As I said before, I am not a fan of any authority, but there is something slimy about you and based on that I do not trust the ABG. I have repeatedly pointed to legitimate concerns about the transparency of process if a private business operated bridges at both crossing. You have dodged all like a seasoned politician.

    You are representing a private business. No matter how many comments you post attempting to flame the anti PBA movement, your goal is not the best interest of the city but rather the best interest of your company. There is no shame in this, unless you try and act as if you are something different.

    Where I live and collect mail is not relevant to this conversation. Your comments and comments by others on my address is a childish reaction to not being able to legiti