Buffalo Rising Online

Here we go again....

shared border or bust...

There is no reason we can't have our new bridge and maintain the neighborhoods around it. Just because Bush said so doesn't make it cannon law. We shouldn't sell short our city and our future because of that idiot.

'caNon law''-- one N only.

Unfortunately, I haven't been following this issue as closely as I should be. Is it possible to force truck/frieght traffic to use the international bridge and have the Peace Bridge as commuter/passenger traffic only? Why can't we and our Canadian neighbors put more pressure on our elected officials to come to an agreement on a shared border crossing. To my knowledge its because our new customs procedures under the PATRIOT ACT would violate the Canadian Charter of Rights. Isn't there a compromise somewhere?

The best option it seems would be to have trucks use the International Bridge and have a customs plaza on the US side for stricter freight searches and use the Peace Bridge for commuter traffic with a Shared Canadian Border Plaza so these homes can be saved. Is this a possibility or am I hoping for the impossible?

the black eyes for Higgins and Brown and the Peace Bridge Association are just starting...I can see protests and I can see this having a very bad effect on the political careers especially for Brown and Higgins who like to have high public profiles.

you can debate the historic significance of this neighborhood all you want but it should NOT be demolished for an expanded plaza just because the feds cannot and will not negotiate and broker a shared border management deal.

as far as Im concerned there are plenty of locations for the bridge and plenty of locations traffic can be redirected. They can redirect the traffic to the Whirlpool and Lewiston for all I care but this is an intact city neighborhood and it deserves its right to exist.

I stand arm in arm with the residences and businesses effected!

the black eyes for Higgins and Brown and the Peace Bridge Association are just starting...I can see protests and I can see this having a very bad effect on the political careers especially for Brown and Higgins who like to have high public profiles.

you can debate the historic significance of this neighborhood all you want but it should NOT be demolished for an expanded plaza just because the feds cannot and will not negotiate and broker a shared border management deal.

as far as Im concerned there are plenty of locations for the bridge and plenty of locations traffic can be redirected. They can redirect the traffic to the Whirlpool and Lewiston for all I care but this is an intact city neighborhood and it deserves its right to exist.

I stand arm in arm with the residences and businesses effected!

The PBA will continue to buy up any property that is put on the market. It will let it detoriate like the rest has and property vaules will continue to go down. I'm actually somewhat surprised that more people haven't tried selling knowing the inevitable. Would homeowners receive more value by selling now or waiting to take what they get when the homes are taken over by the PBA??

Ron, why should that option be totally out of the question? The plaza they built wouldn't need to be removed and would still be used for cars. Maybe costs for the truck plaza a mile north would be a fairly small portion of the overal project and who knows, maybe the Ambassador Bridge company would fund some or all of those costs. A benefit to Canada of the approach would be to eliminate the truck traffic long backups on the QEW as sometimes happen. I don't know all about this, but just seems there's a lot of potential upsides that should be considered.

Canada has already completed their plaza for both Cars and Truck. They are not going to build another plaza up the river because we want to save some homes.

on a side note... I hope I'm alive to see the day that something other than stock videop of NIAGARA FALLS is shown on Monday Night Football when talking about the city of BUFFALO! The new Peace Bridge - Buffalo City Tower - something to look forward to.

detoriate = deteriorate (dĭ-tîr'ē-ə-rāt') To diminish or impair in quality, character, or value: Time and neglect had deteriorated the property.

Why the PBA is considering taking out even one home to accomodate trucks and cars crossing the bridge is beyond me. Someone said it best- this IS the Kensington Expressway of our time. This is the type of project that gives emminent domain a bad name- there are alternatives that leave the neighborhood intact. Another Masiello legacy. Tall, goofy idiot. Time to get rid of all of the patronage-packed and unaccountable Authorities that are crippling and destroying the city.

RonR, you dont see the PBA moving the plaza....well read the comments on these posts...

can you visualize the protests? I can!

Can you see Brown and Higgins and Hoyt backing down because of community opposition? I can!

Can you see that whether a democrat or republican is elected president that a new head of homeland security will be appointed and that shared border management negotiations may be reopened? I can!

Can you see the PBA relenting and either moving the expanded plaza or moving the bridge location? I can!

Yes we want a bridge....but what the PBA needs to understand is that people will not accept the bride with the expanded plaza. If the PBA wants a bridge then they arent going to get it going against the citizens of Buffalo!

I would laugh my ass off if the westside community and the black rock community secretly maintained those homes: painting, shoveling sidewalks, cleaned gutters, patched roofs etc so they could not be condemned.

Id laugh my ass off....if the PBA tried to condemn them and the city inspector came andsaid there was nothing wrongw ith them....refusing the application.

RonR....from the direction I see these protests going as emminent domain starts to approach....I would say shared border management IS THE ONLY OPTION.....if the bridge is to be built without delay....otherwise the protests will simply result in bridge delays and lawsuits and protests.

The Ambassador bridge group's aim is to foil any bridge development in this area. It is all smoke and mirrors. They own the Windsor/Detroit bridge and do not want traffic diverted to this neck of the woods. They have no intention of building a bridge, simply stalling the process. You'll start to see them get very active. Don't buy it. They have deep pockets buy some land and smoke everyone.

Isn't eminent domani suppose to be used when the public good outweighs private property rights. Restoring and furthering commercial and residential traffic over the second busiest international boredr in North America I would think clearly fall into this category. Hopefully BR and Queenseye will demonstrate some balance and cover the other side of this issue. Hopefully our elected officials will show the courage necessary to overcome a clearly vocal minority

carl malone....but its not for the public good when the Whirlpool Bridge and the Lewiston Bridge are both under-utilized and under-capacity in all categories: car, truck, rail and customs. therefore, the idea that Detroits bridge revenue will be impacted by restricting Buffalos bridge traffic is a non-argument.

The Buffalo Niagara region is not over-capacity. However the Buffalo bridge capacity is only predicting near capacity....so its an economic impact/infrastructure investment for Buffalo only...not....Buffalo Niagara.

When one frames the argument on those terms it is not worth the loss of a residential and commercial community for an expanded plaza......we can wait and hold up bridge construction through protest until a shared border agreement is reached without any economic impact!

We don't need a new Peace Bridge and we don't need the old one. The small amount of money that we get from the bridge isn't worth the scourge that it inflicts on West Side residents. We should 1) close this off and tear it down, then 2) continue to tear out the NIagara Thruway all the way from 290 to Ogden Street and 3) south past the Skyway. 4) Close off and rip out the Kensington Expressway and return the street grid to revitalize the East Side. 5) Develop light rail, passenger, and freight train service to Toronto and NY on existing lines with Buffalo as the hub. 6) Make Buffalo the logistics hub for rail freight, make it the safety inspection point for all international freight and passengers. 7) Stop focusing on car traffic, it will soon be a thing of the past

Thank you BRO for highlighting the issue of emminent domain and how it will destroy this residential, diverse community. This is my family's neighborhood. They have invested their lives there- their money- their efforts to keep the community in tact. These are not just vacant run-down houses. These are exquisite well cared for properties. But more than that- these are wonderful, caring, lovely, educated, dedicated families- homeowners. For those of you who are commenting without listening to the podcast- please take the time to listen to it. It is illuminating.

DMD YOU ARE WRONG....the Whirlpool Bridge and the Lewiston Bridge are both under-utilized and under-capacity in all categories: car, truck, rail and customs.

The Buffalo Niagara region is not over-capacity. However the Buffalo bridge capacity is only predicting near capacity....so its an economic impact/infrastructure investment for Buffalo only...not....Buffalo Niagara.

When one frames the argument on those terms it is not worth the loss of a residential and commercial community for an expanded plaza......we can wait and hold up bridge construction redirect traffic to the bridges in Niagara County until a shared border agreement is reached without any economic loss to Buffalo or the region!

Stupid, Stupid, and Stupid again, Buffalo! Over and over and over again!

Hamp is absolutely right: these houses (and more importantly the contributions to Buffalo of the residents) are too great to be sacrificed for this perennial promise.

The demolition will likely occur but the plaza and bridge never.

Trade a living neighborhood for a plan.

Another joke.

RonR dont try to bully and intimidate! I know just as much about domestic and international trade thru Buffalo Niagara than you if not more...and I will not be as easy to intimidate.

Yes by my calculations there is 100 billion dollars in goods that cross the US - Canadian Border Yes by my calculations there is another 100 billion dollars in goods that tavel east-west between the Northeast and the midwest Yes Buffalo is still the #2 inland port in the US Yes Buffalo is still the #8 port in the Northeast Yes Buffalo is now the auxilliary port for the Port of NY/NJ

BUT IF BUFFALO NIAGARA WAS THE WAREHOUSE CAPITAL AND ADDED VALUE TO THE ESTIMATED 200 BILLION DOLLARS IN GOODS THAT PASS THRU OUR CITY, THEN WE WOULD HAVE ALOT MORE WAREHOUSE SPACE THAN ROCHESTER WHICH HAS NO INTERNATIONAL TRANSHIPMENT OR BORDER FACILITIES!

FACT OF THE MATTER IS BUFFALO NIAGARA DOESNT ADD VALUE TO THE MAJORITY OF GOODS THAT PASS THRU OUR CITY....AND BUFFALO IN THE MAJORITY OF CASES IS LITTLE MORE THAN A PASS THRU CONDUIT!

THE BUFFALO PEACE BRIDGE ISNT EVEN CLOSE TO BEING AT CAPACITY! One again I must repeat that the Whirlpool Bridge and the Queenston/Lewiston Bridges are all under-used, under-capacity in every category: car, truck, rail and customs! We can very easily redirect traffic to under-capacity bridges without suffering any loss to our local or regional economy!

THEREFORE.....THE EFFECTED PEOPLE TOGETHER WITH THEIR SUPPORTERS THROUGHOUT BUFFALO AND WNY CAN VERY EASILY PROTEST AND DELAY CONSTRUCTION UNTIL THE PBA AND HOMELAND SECURITY ADOPT A SHARED BORDER MANAGMENT PLAN THAT DOES NOT EXPAND THE SIZE OF THE CURRENT PLAZA!

Ron, I stand hand in hand and arm in arm with the citizens and residents of this community. I am not intimidated by your arguments....and their justification that these homes and businesses must be sacrificed for the greater good. I know it! They know it! Furthermore the citizens of Buffalo and WNY know it!

Demands to expand the plaza with stonewall and delay the construction of any bridge.

Furthermore, demands for an expanded plaza my just result in the residents of Buffalo and WNY demanding the Peace Bridge closed rather than succumb to an expanded plaza......much less agree to an expanded plaza for a second bridge.

Here is my warning to the PBA...there are alot of people looking for a cause...and the last thing you want is a protest where someone jumps off the Peace Bridge into the Niagara River in opposition of the expanded plaza! If that happens the PBA is going to be under huge scrutiny and public media as well as a ground swell of local opposition and prosecution.

Once the protest starts .... you have no idea just how far it could spiral out of control if its shoved down the throats of the community that opposes it.

The same can be said of the coming protests against the Skyway....because that is another potential that could very easily result in protestors and picketers marching up the skyway and cutting off traffic or a car turning off their ignition in the one lane at the peak height of the skyway over the Buffalo River/ErieCanal Wharf...and god forbid someone gets blown off during a protest stunt like that...

You dont know how far a protest is going to go....but my advise to the PBA and the NYSDOT with regard to the skyway.....is not to be filled with so much hubris that you under-estimate the power of a protest.

Those uprooted residents will leave and many of them will leave Buffalo altogether, another piece of Buffalo's decline. But it really is pretty small compared to the overall exodus. So what's the advantage of this plaza exactly, to have more space for cross-border traffic? Well that makes sense to me. I'm getting sick of being stuck at the Lewiston-Queenston bridge. Actually you BRO types should like it... with the strong Canadian dollar they're looking for ways to go shopping in the Buffalo area. Right now it's so convenient to go to the Boulevard Mall or the Galleria. If the Peace Bridge were easy, they'd be tempted to shop at any future downtown shopping areas, or even better, your beloved Elmwood Village.

Chris69: I must say I love the redirect and underutilize arguements. What your are saying is we'll tell businesses what to do. They don't engage in cost benefits analysis including time spent when they factor transportation costs into their network and logistics analysis. They simply listen to people like you. Is this how they've got to those position. Why is Windsor/Detroit the largest crossing in N. America and why has it divereted so much commercial traffic. Could those numbers be influenced by facility flows.

Your arguement does not include the business cost arguement at all, it is based on emotion. Now this probably excites you and others on the board but it is not practical nor is it beneficial to future economic livlihood of the region.

The arguement people do have right is how does the region benefit since trucks just go through the region, hence the importance of the intermodal yard which stops the flow of international trade. In fact the intermodal yard is largely more important than the bridge arguement since the bridge doesn't stop traffic merely facilitates it.

Protest are great but remember the people on the other side of the arguement employ in great numbers in this area and generate signifcantly to the tax base, so if you all think their arguements are irrelevant, you are sadly mistaken.

carl malone, who are you kidding....Im not stupid about logistics....the distance between the Peace Bridge, the Whirlpool Bridge and the Queenston/Lewiston Bridge is not going to break a company financially when your talking about interstate and international trade.

First off on the Ambassador Group. You are correct they have spent a good deal of money. Sometimes you have tp spend money to make money. If buying parcels of land on the cheap that they can depreciate on the books and sell at a profit a later time while detracking the bridge process here to maintain traffic flows in Windsor/Detroit. The group is smart, just don't their BS.

Chris69, I'm not trying to insult your intelligence rather point out that the logistics arguement isn't between the bridges here which are geograhpically close, rather to divert to Windsor/Michigan. Businesses rely on predicatability, when you take it away they gravitate toward the more reliable solutiuon (Michigan/Windsor). It just saves money in the long run. The comments regarding Higgins and business community are BS. I hate to shatter the myth but politicians don't do things b/c they feel it is right.

I bet this all makes you wish your ancestors had moved to a different part of the country ;)

Just what was it the City got when Masiello caved and agreed the city would utilize eminent domain? Masiello should be ashamed, and the city is paying him to lobby on its behalf? WTF!

For the amount of federal money going into this project- it is by no means self-financed by the PBA- there needs to be community consensus on the design of the Plaza. My take- not one house should come down to expedite traffic. Who suggested the double-decker plaza? Good idea. Was that even considered?

What's with the non-stop string of bad decisions coming from the elected officials over the last 50 years? Expressways, casinos, suburban campuses, stubby rail systems, sprawl without growth, patronage filled authorities, squandered opportunities....when do we say "enough?"

Let me say this in my best Chris69 voice: WHERE IS THE LEADERSHIP IN THIS CITY?!?!?

PBK, you want to get the attention of our leaders....have two people drive across the peace bidge then stop on the bridge pull out the keys to the car and then hold up signs saying dont take our homes!

let me put it this way.....if you stop bridge traffic a couple times...thats going to do a heck of a lot more than tying black garbage bags around trees.

you can pull the same stunt at the entrance ramps and exit ramps to the peace bridge.

heck...there are so many homeless and gangs in the neighborhood....give someone $100 to block the bridge or $100 to block the bridge access ramps.

Dont waste your time on garbage bags when you can get a message on the news and send a message right to the mayor and the PBA.

Chris69- You are damn right- the key is to tip off the news channels that the protest is going to happen for maximum exposure. Money talks- hit the PBA in the pocket book, that's the only thing they listen to.

It is time for Buffalo to start doing things differently than everyone else. In much the same way that LEET and Environmental concerns have changed design and architectural standards, we should look at all developments from a 2050 lens. Build the city for the future; ironically this means taking from the past. The canals and railways will be revised and evolved to become the primary mode of transportation in the near future. We have heard that water, fuel, and electricity will continue to grow in scarcity, but these are all things that we have in an abundance. Instead of making more efficient ways to transport these from the region, we should focus on how to keep these here are our differentiator. People should move here for fresh water, cheap electricity, and a modern city, instead of expecting us to suffer while we give these away at a discount.

We are like the High School slut who puts out for everyone, she feels loved but no one respects her or cares about her. She is just used and tossed aside, just like us.

RisingDamp666, we are....the Seneca Rail Yards that served Bethlehem Steet have been reactivated, the rail yards in Niagara Falls are being examined to be reopened and the rail lines on the whirlpool bridge are being examined for an upgrade.

There is even talk of building a 2nd track so that passenger and freight do not have to compete for the same trackage which is already at capacity.

That being said, your right we need to encourage more truck traffic to switch to rail....but no matter what we do these people do not need to be evicted for emminent domain so their homes and businesses can be demolished for a waiting area for truck traffic.

They could very easily built another bridge from Grand Island to Canada cheaply and take all the land they wanted.

Suppose it was you? Suppose for a moment, that you awake one day, and find a letter in the mailbox saying “Sorry, we need your home for a parking lot, a Mall, a Casino, etc. etc etc. What would you do? Would you start packing? I doubt it. Would you sit there and do nothing? I doubt it. You would hope that your fellow Buffalonians would stand beside you. Western NY needs help. There is currently a small group, acting like true patriots, and standing up to the Man. It’s bad enough, that every waking day for the last 20 yrs. has been lived in fear of losing there home. Home, you know that place; it’s where the heart is. This small group has done its homework. They have solutions, and alternate ways of improving the area. Everyone is always talking about how great things were in the past. How vibrant Buffalo was, and how sad it is to see it how it is today. Well…This is your chance right here to make a difference. Say NO to the destruction of people’s homes for parking lots. Save your city 1 home at a time. There is no place like Home!

sometimes i really care about historic houses when i drive though East Aurora or Batavia. The current plaza provides nothing towards the community and thats why destroying so many houses seems foolish. i wonder why they can not provide some inovative zig zag security plan and use a irregular land plot. have intersecting roads go under and such. there is a lot of space to move traffic already. they can then worry about what to call the bridge.

Anne – I’m no expert about this but are you certain that map is meant to imply everything within their blue dotted outline (houses, etc.) would be taken for the project?

I could be wrong but I think maybe it’s not meant that way for a couple reasons:

- If you look on U.S. side you’ll see it includes areas to Grant St and Amherst St which would seem way more land than necessary.

- On their pages for Benefits and their FAQ #7, they explicitly say no residential relocations:

7. How will this project benefit my community?

The project provides numerous benefits to people of the region, including:

- A second crossing in a region that is in desperate need of more choices

- Shorter duration border crossings

- Elimination of the truck backups on the QEW, the I-190 and local streets around Front Park in Buffalo and Mather Park in Fort Erie

- No residential relocations

- Private sector funding

- ...

- Relocation of trucks to an industrial rail corridor that is a more appropriate route for international trade

- Reuse of existing brownfields

- The addition of hundreds of acres of property to the tax rolls

- ...

So possibly the outlines on that map are meant to give general ideas.

RonR – Regarding something you commented on way up above:

In their FAQ #11, I just noticed that they do say their company would pay for the new plazas in both nations.

11. Who will pay for the project?

Ambassador Niagara will pay all project costs, including the bridge, the plazas, and the connecting roadway.

Another thing I just saw in their benefit list that's interesting is "addition of hundreds of acres of property to the tax rolls". I think that means land on both sides would stay in the private sector and apparently they're not asking for any tax breaks.

I agree with Spoiled that the Ambassador Co proposal should at least be more seriously considered than it's been so far.

Looking at maps, there's more currently empty land (land without streets) near their proposed location in Black Rock than there is near the Peace Bridge - so maybe the truck fumes issue could be better managed there. Atleast it's worth a serious look. And they say "no residential relocations". I just think it shouldn't be rejected out of hand as several commenters seem to have done.

Re. shared border management, several earlier commenters implied this is not possiblle only because of a Bush admin objection and that after 2009 it could happen. I'm not so sure. If Hillary wins, which looks more and more likely, my guess is in her first term she'll be even more strident on homeland security issues than the current admin. She'll want to show she has balls. I would not count on her admin being any more willing to permanently delegate any authority to the Canadian court system for matters such as allowing U.S. authorities to detain suspects attempting U.S. entry - which is the heart of the argument Secretary Chertoff has used against shared border mgt. That's just a guess, can't prove it. Because were so close to election, maybe it won't hurt to wait and see what happens.

What Ontario wrote is interesting, especially this part in first comment:

If you asked Fort Erie residents for their opinion - without reprisals - I'd bet a signature bridge the majority - a clear majority would say IRR. You've also probably heard that a bridge at the IRR would divide Fort Erie. PBA trash talk. There's been a bridge at the IRR for over 100 years at it hasn't divided Fort Erie. What's divisive about building infrastructure next to 100-year old infrastructure? It interfers with the PBA's plans. Shared Border Management is not wanted in Fort Erie. BUT we both sides can have a small plaza when the bridge is built at the IRR. I don't care who builds it. I'm guessing Ambassador can built it for less because they're a private, profit oriented company whereas the PBA would probably cost - well, you know government project overruns and delays. Take the trucks off the Peace Bridge. Simple. At the IRR on Fort Erie's side the truck plaza and inspection would be in the middle of a field far away from any homes and on the Buffalo side it would reclaim brownfields.

I wonder if any objective public opinion polls could be been done in the Ft Erie area to explore this? Many have said over and over that the "Canadian side" insists on the approach the PBA is pushing. But who knows, maybe it's not even true.

Re. shared mgt aspect, that might not get approved on this side either. Some people do speculate that the next presidential admin here might support it, but that's anyone's guess. My guess is it's at least as likely that even Hillary would oppose it - but we'll see.

Re. IRR bridge location, it sounds to me like there could be a lot of advantages and I've no reason to doubt what you're saying about Ft Erie general public being open to it. But if Ft Erie politicians march in lock step with PBA opposition, then it's hard to envision it being given consideration on either side unfortunately. Media outlets will occasionally pay for polls, but probably for this they wouldn't have interest. And if Ambasssador Group paid for a poll, the results wouldn't be taken seriously.

PBA might be holding pretty much all the cards at the moment.