The Problem Of Problem Delis
Last Thursday, a special meeting was held to address concerns about the delis. Masten council member, Demone Smith, called the meeting to discuss a possible revision to current legislation in the hopes of making it harder for delis to obtain a license renewal. According to Smith, “We want to make it easier to get rid of some of those bad apple stores. We get the complaints of gun dealing [and drugs]. We get the whole variety.”
Present at the meeting were a number of city officials, including Common Council members David Rivera and Michael LoCurto, as well as Common Council President David Franczyk. Patrick Sole, supervisor of licenses; Vince Ferraraccio, a building inspector; and the commissioner of the Department of Permit and Inspection Services, Richard Tobe.
The meeting was held to gauge the potential of a number of different options to handle the deli situation and was hashed out between the Common Council members and the Department of Permit and Inspection Services. Input from Marilyn Rodgers, Catherine Fabozzi, and Tommy Birtha, all of whom have faced harassment from their local delis, were entered for the record to show how serious of an issue this problem is.
For now, no immediate change of legislation was made. Currently, the Common Council has to approve any new licenses. Smith wanted to make it so that the Common Council also has to approve every deli license renewal. However, with 339 delis to be renewed in April of this year, the task would be too overwhelming to go through each deli individually. Coming up with an additional step or a way of singling out problem delis became the main issue, but as Tobe was quick to remind everyone present, “How do we do it legally, whatever we do? I want to get to the point where when we do these things, we win.”
Tobe spoke much to the area of due process – something every citizen is guaranteed by law. Singling out problem delis is fine, but the owners still have the right to have their case heard and an appeals process. Tobe also cited his recent efforts of creating a new license renewal process with Sole, including getting better reports from the police, more input from neighbors and the Common Council, and a possible hearing, giving the owner due process, while giving neighbors of the deli a chance to vocalize their concerns.
Smith liked that idea, however, he was very adamant about keeping the Common Council involved. The Council received a packet of the delis whose licenses are up for renewal in February according to Tobe. That was their opportunity to flag problem delis they may have received calls about from the people living in their district. However, Smith is interested in creating a possible two-step renewal process. Problem delis would be flagged and would have to receive renewal by Tobe and his department, and then move to the Common Council to be renewed there as well.
Before any action is taken, everything must be clearly outlined and defined to protect the city, as well as the owners of the delis, from lawsuits stating there was a violation of due process. That being the case, the meeting ended very uncertainly. The renewals for April will be delayed 30 days while the Common Council and Smith decide what best course of action to take--and so that legislation can be modified. Also, it will give the Council time to review the list of 339 delis more closely and designate those that are a problem.
It is a lot of red tape, but the problem is very serious. Rodgers lives in an area with eight other delis and a Tops Market in a three-block radius of her home. She has witnessed fights, and the serving of alcohol to people who are already too intoxicated along with personal threats to her and her neighbors. Rodgers says there is a lack of action because, “There are people who won’t call the police, due to fear of retribution. It’s intimidation and threats.”
In a letter written for the meeting and given to members of the Common Council, Rodgers said, “The city owes it to the community-builders and citizens to protect and serve as a good steward, rather than finding the quick and easy way out.”
This sentiment was echoed by Birtha at the meeting, who also said, “My life has actually been threatened on numerous occasions.”
Fabozzi nodded in understanding. Fabozzi once had all of the lug nuts loosened on her vehicle, but she luckily noticed in time before getting onto the highway. Fabozzi says, “It’s been intolerable. City hall has been more of a problem than the hookers [at the deli].”
Even Council President Franczyk spoke up to note the major problems with delis, stating, “How come you never hear about this at a Wilson Farms? So what you have at the very least is the significant lowering of standards in the way these businesses are run. They’re lowlifes. They disrespect the neighborhood.”
In strengthening the license renewal process against problem delis, there are a number of concerns, including evidence needed to shut them down. Greg Heeb, an assistant to the Corporation Council, said, “The single biggest problem we have is the quality of evidence. I, personally, like to prosecute these things and it really makes a difference to have a solid base of evidence.”
It is the same wall that Birtha, Fabozzi, and Rodgers have come up against. Covert attacks and hearsay are hard to get a conviction on and all three, at one point or another during the meeting, said the police had not been able to help too much. To Rodgers, the key to beating the problem delis is to simply take action. “Once conditions are placed on a license, the city has to enforce those conditions.”
The problem with delis has been a huge issue for the last decade. There was even a deli task force started years ago to attempt to deal with the delis. Franczyk and Ferraraccio were both members of that team, and Franczyk said, “After ten years, we still don’t have a handle on it.”
Hopefully, the changes that will be made to the current process of license renewal will be a significant boost to the communities facing problems from local delis. Rodgers warned, “We’re not getting the word out that things of this nature are in process.” Even for the meeting, Rodgers said, “They didn’t give us a heck of a lot of time [to prepare for it].”
The meeting ended with some starter plans to change the process and a delay of 30 days before licenses renewals are issued in an effort to give the Common Council time to work with the Department of Permit and Inspection Services on a new or modified process. Other than taking the deli to task through the city processes, Rodgers has no contact with the deli, its owners, or people who shop there. Rodgers wants to see it closed and says, “I will not step foot in the West Side Market.”
As Rodgers stated in a letter: What we need to do is certainly cast a wide net to assure all areas of our city are covered by the same laws and ordinances. Not just for areas that are considered better than others.
Comment Options
Sal
This article presents some interesting questions.
My thought is to have the police more involved aside from simply documenting who frequents these places. A few years ago there was a problem tenant in a building under my management. I found out because one of the other tenants was moving due to the drug dealing there. The problem tenant was a grandmother in her 60s whom had moved in a few months earlier. I had personally helped her move in and assisted her with section 8 forms, security deposit, etc. You can't evict a tenant just by saying they're a drug dealer. They have to be arrested and convicted 3 times while living in the property. You can't evict a tenant for having too many guests over to visit. A guest can be considered as someone who simply walks up the driveway and puts their hand through an open window of the building during the day or night. I ended up evicting the problem tenant because she slipped up in court by bouncing a CERTIFIED check for her $128 portion of the rent. (You can bounce a certified check if you wait 30 days and then report it stolen by the way).
My situation was different than presented here but I would work on calling the police more often, asking the police to stake out the area more often, take pictures of who is coming in and out of the building and work with the city on their suggestions. Lighting is a big issue also. Gun and drug dealers don't like to be watched.
Even though Rodgers has no contact with the deli, someone certainly knows her. She really needs help in tackling this problem. In battling my drug dealer, I went as far as taking responsiblity for having the other tenants call the police over and over again. I called city hall and had them call 911 from city hall for a better response.
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Einstein
Why aren't the police camped out in front of these places. It sounds like they are turning a deaf ear and blind eye to a known issue and putting the public at risk in the process. How is it that we can park 10 police cars outside of the HSBC arena and another 10 - 20 in the surrounding parking lots to give the visiting suburbanites a sense of security, but we can't offer a consistent level of protection to the residents of the city. I saw the Buffalo Police Chief and the Mayor talking about partnering with the State Police and Erie County Sheriffs to crack down on crime in the city, I would expect that they could use these places as a starting point. It sounds like there is some credible evidence of crimes being committed. To me it sounds like the lack of involvement is intentional, sort of like "Hamsterdam" on The Wire.
Where are our 112 new police officers anyway?
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tommyboyleroy
I was really relived to see Miss Marilyn and Miss Cathy at the meeting on Thiursday. I live in the Leroy area and my life have been threatened by the owners and the customers of the markets I am going on against becouse I stand up for my neighbors who are afraid of them. Seeing these 2 ladies at the meeting gave me hope becaouse I know I am not alone in my fight. I brought a woman to the meeting with me who got charged more for grocerys than other people have. The delis don't have the visible price tickets that the big stores do and that allows them to charge what they want. The delis allow all kinds of stuff happen in the front and around them like drugs and loitering and that makes people afraid in the neighborhood. I thought I was going crazy that I was the only one to see this and fight this but now I know it goes on all over the city. We're goning to have a protest here in the Leroy area once the weather breaks and now I know I have friends on the other side of town to be there at my side and show them that we can work together.
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Timatbuffalo
To thank these people first should be done for getting involved! I believe that there is an old saying and that is "Keep your friends close and you enemies closer". It would be best to stop in every day twice, if only to buy a "fireball." I think that all new city cameras would be better placed in front of these problem deli's at the intersections, lets watch them. Labeling is a law for pricing and we have curfues in place, WE JUST NEED TO INFORCE THEM. I have said this the best way to add value to a neighborhood is lighting, raise the foot candle requirements for the streets and the values go up along with the taxes and the need for less services.Our former concil menbers came up with most of the solutions before, let us have the curant ones work on createing NEW higher paying jobs, and LOTS of them.
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sbrof
I agree with most everything about these deli's except that I do wonder who gets the say which ones are problematic and which ones are not. Like them or not these deli's are an important sources for convenient food and serve a much larger clientèle than drug dealers and problem people.
I agree the police need to step forward more. They got brown elected, the wage freeze lifted and 100 new officers hired... WHERE ARE THE RESULTS.. are they working harder, walking the beat, actually making the city safer... I still feel they are by and large the biggest waste of tax payer money. I know there are great police officers that make a difference but the results are few and far between. I don't see criminal and drug dealers afraid to walk the street and do their business is broad daylight.
Also I would hate to see deli's closed down because some people perceive a problem. There really does need to be proper evidence that the deli owners are catering or being negligent about their neighbors and just because a drug dealer frequents their store doesn't mean it should be closed down. But doing the dealing on their property without them yelling or moving them is. But then again this goes back to police work. If the neighbors know where the problems are the police sure as hell do...
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bcd
There seems to be an error in this report. Rogers has gone into the store in the past and has been threatened as a result. She has attempted to make peace but hasn't gotten anything but flack for it. She was not apble to make the most current meetings except for one last month where she offered ideas for the store to make better money through better services like a qucik lunch menu for area businesses. Still, I personally witessed a local prostitute offering to "take care of that b..." for the owner who stood there smiling along with the security guard that the store was sanctioned by the city to reinstate after they went against the first set of conditins on their license. This same prostitute was also significant in the threats against other neighbors who were finfered by store ownership. Even if the owners of a store do not take the negative road, they get their dirty work done by those who they cater to by providing spiffs like free beer or running tabs that are paid by social services benefit cards without determining if nontaxable items were on the tabs. Fabozzi has been fighting this for years to. And she has had itmes stolen from her home along with the lug nuts being loosened from her car. If these are warning signals there is nothing to say that anything else can happen. Good work that BR has decided to make these events known so these people are covered when another threat or situation occurs.
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bcd
sbrof, please re-read the article where it said that
an area with eight other delis and a Tops Market in a three-block radius
What this says is there are adequate amount of other stores for the public to frequent. This is the case all over the city just as in the Leroy area where Birtha lives. Every other corner seems to have these delis, soome are good and some are bad. Most make their livlihood by selling beer, cigarettes and food stamps.
see the other mention here by tommyboyleroy who says
I brought a woman to the meeting with me who got charged more for grocerys than other people have. The delis don't have the visible price tickets that the big stores do and that allows them to charge what they want.
It shows there is lack of enforcement maybe due to way to many stores to properly enforce the laws we already have.
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Sal
If I were a concerned neighbor, I would ask Commissioner Tobe about the blatant housing code violations on this building:
1. Where are the permits to change the window size in several areas of the building? Hint - look at the WHITE VINYL ones on the second floor.
2. Is this building in a preservation district? See comment above.
3. When the window size was changed, where is the stamped architect's plans for such change? See first comment.
4. You're aware that an electrical line can't come within a certain distance of a window opening. Why was this building allowed to upgrade the electrical line without putting in a masthead above the roofline?
5. How can the corner door be considered an exit when it is gated and locked? Remember the building contains residential space which brings it to a higher standard.
6. Had any proper permits been filed, do you believe that the assessed valuation on this building, which is over 4000 square feet, should be more than $34,100?
7. The owner of 257 Carolina has an address listed in Rochester, NY. Who is the local agent and where do they reside? This is required by the City of Buffalo also as you know.
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MRodgers
I just wanted to verify a few items that may be misunderstood by readers on this forum.
First, the incident with the paint on my truck occurred in September after a meeting at City Hall where action had been called for regarding the Market’s dropping of their security guard after that condition had been placed on their license when they were allowed to reopen after a three-month closure in July 2006.
After that meeting I was not able to attend others that included store ownership at City Hall, but a few other neighbors did, those most affected by the goings on of the location.
Two of those neighbors have been singled out by the alleged prostitute as she cat-called and literally pointed them out to area “roughs.” These same two have lived all over the world, working in Third World countries, being air-lifted to safety, seeing the poverty and decay that none of us could even imagine, and they have difficulty having to deal with this particular Market.
On the matter of police, we have had an outstanding relationship with B District for many years and commend the officers and their brass for making sure they do whatever they can. Unfortunately, 911 operators do not necessarily take calls regarding loitering, drug sales, public drunkenness, public defecation and urination, and others like them seriously and they are placed on the back-burner, left to languish and be dispatched long after the event has taken place. Additionally, particularly in B District, the population density and crime events are significant and the police have a great deal on their hands.
We understand this and also feel that the proposed legislation by Councilmember Smith can make a significant difference in handling delis that do not comply with codes or ordinances. They are the contact with their constituents who call them to complain about issues such as these and by keeping a file on each deli they receive complaints about, the file can be pulled at the time of license renewal for review and decision.
On top of it all, many residents fear retribution and will not make the 911 call. I have fielded many calls like these to assure the neighbor’s homes will not be singled out for the call, pointing the way to the perpetrators. Our officers cannot be responsible for not going to a complainant’s home if the dispatcher does not tell them to not go. This creates an uneasy and distrustful feeling for many, so we have developed a call forwarding system to quell those fears.
During the meeting, to defray the concern over lack of substantial evidence, I suggested the use of signed and notarized affidavits. Mr. Heeb said he felt these documents could work well as evidence.
Last fall, when this whole thing started all over again regarding the Market in our neighborhood and the lack of its abiding by license conditions, my efforts were to assure those conditions would be met, not for the store to be closed. However, additional conditions were placed on their new temporary license and three of those have not been met. It is certainly a slap in the face of our system. I guess we will have to see what occurs in April.
Regarding the need for these establishments, yes, there is certainly a need, IF they abide by the codes and ordinances that assure a quality of life for all in their areas. And, bcd is right, we have an adequate number of these establishments here (eight including the West Side Market within a three block radius PLUS a full-service Tops on Niagara Street) as well as many other neighborhoods throughout the city. I have a friend who lives by North and Elmwood who walks to Tops to assure he gets quality produce and meats while watching his budget. Many of these stores do not have the selection or the prices to assure their clientele being provided the best possible service.
I spoke at a recent CAO/United Neighborhoods conference in the fall where many East Siders complained about the same conditions and concerns. I also found relief when Mr. Birtha spoke at the meeting on Thursday, or maybe the word should be “vindicated.”
And, there have been others against the market in our area who are now going in since, as I was told by one individual, “they save the sale-priced cigarettes for me,” while still others use the running tab system and others purchase $1.50 40 ounce alcoholic beverages for $20.00 worth of cigarette coupons, many of them already so inebriated they fall against the building or other properties with their brown bag clutched tightly in their hands.
The comment quoted regarding whether or not I will step into the West Side Market – well, would you place yourself in a compromising situation after all the intimidation?
Yes, this may be construed as a “manifesto” by some, but the facts must be made to assure a total understanding of the issue. Thank you for your patience in reading this.
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MRodgers
Sal, first, let me thank you, personally, for always being a conscientious and tremendous citizen for what is right. Now, for some answers to your queries, which, I admit, may not be the answers we need, but have been overlooked by inspectors:
“If I were a concerned neighbor, I would ask Commissioner Tobe about the blatant housing code violations on this building:
1. Where are the permits to change the window size in several areas of the building? Hint - look at the WHITE VINYL ones on the second floor.
MR-We have no idea when these windows were installed. It may have been prior to the preservation designation in 1980 (City designation differs from National Register designation and the city goes by their date for preservation code)-
2. Is this building in a preservation district? See comment above.
MR-Yes, it is directly in a triple-designated preservation district – national – state – and city, however, the property has been brought to the attention of inspectors time and again and patch up type remediation has taken place as a result.-
3. When the window size was changed, where is the stamped architect's plans for such change? See first comment.
MR- Hmmm, not sure, but it still may fall under previous codes, worth looking into though-
4. You're aware that an electrical line can't come within a certain distance of a window opening. Why was this building allowed to upgrade the electrical line without putting in a masthead above the roofline?
MR-WOW, good question! We’ll have to ask that one – thanks!-
5. How can the corner door be considered an exit when it is gated and locked? Remember the building contains residential space which brings it to a higher standard.
MR-The corner door is gated and locked because the picture was taken during the time the Market was closed by the City. However, this is the only entry and exit for the store. The apartments use the doors on the side (Johnson Park and the other front door on Carolina-
6. Had any proper permits been filed, do you believe that the assessed valuation on this building, which is over 4000 square feet, should be more than $34,100?
MR-Since there has been rumor that the owners would be willing to sell the business and property for something like $133,000, I personally believe it should be reassessed, especially in consideration of economic development and taxes.
7. The owner of 257 Carolina has an address listed in Rochester, NY. Who is the local agent and where do they reside? This is required by the City of Buffalo also as you know.
MR-According to deed and mortgage records on the Erie County website, the Market and the property is owned by Ahmed Abubaker of Lackawanna, NY and Ali Abdulla. At the time of the filings they used a Maryland Street address. Where id you find the Rochester address?-
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righteousguy
just read this on SUWNY-
"There's a deli on Bailey near Minnesota which is a haven for criminal activity - stolen property is brought in and the owner resells it, among other things. This crap has been going on for years and nothing ever happens to the guy. I imagine this is the scenario all over the city, yet it gets completely overlooked. Time to start shutting these stores down. If they can't run a clean business, then they shouldn't BE in business."
Guess that vindicates a whole lot here.
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telstart
My kid goes to Hutch Tech and I told hiim in no uncertain terms DO NOT GO INTO THAT STORE! I just had a feeling and now I can show him why. Thanks.
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onestarmartin
Miss Rodgers, welcome to our nightmare. We have issues on our street with a business also. So far acid on a new car and a gastank full of sugar in another. I guess when scum feels threatend, they fight back in a very childish and distructive way. What they do not realize is scare tacticts only open the can of worms further and aggravate the issue at hand, bringing the problems they brought on themselvers even more into the publics eye's.
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sbrof
don't get me wrong i think that any one of these places that does illegal or questionable stuff should be seriously looked at or shut down. Especially when there are obvious problems, threats etc... I just don't want to see some of these business owners who are nice and trying to make a living for them and their family's targeted just because they are not up so some people's standards.
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MRodgers
onestarmartin, that is why we MUST bring these issues out of the closet and into the public's eyes and ears. The Common Council is voting on this new legislation this Tuesday at 2 pm. I don;t know if I can get away to attend but my letter has been added to the agenda for the CC meeting. We need to hook up, all of us, to assure we get the attention to the issues we experience, especially since we have worked so hard to build better neighborhoods. There's victory and safety in numbers. Send me an e-mail or a PM through this site.
Recently, I have been awakened in the middle of the night when snow and ice have been thrown against my house. These little annoyances are their way to warnings. If we back down, we lose and so does the city.
I'm not saying all licenses have to be scrutinized, but if a neighborhood has issues, then those issues must be considered strongly to assure public safety and quality of life for ALL neighbors, not just those who are getting the best deal. Through Common COuncil review utilizing a "Flag" system of complaints recieved when licenses come up for renewal, we have that chance.
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telstart
Jeeez, acid on cars, paint on truck, death threats, sugar in gas tanks. It seems these bad apples want to scare people away so they can continue with business as usual. Tp tommyboyleroy, mrogers, and onestartmartin, and Catherine Fabozi (who I know works with local homeless and alcoholics) thanks for being there for us. Now if the city would just stand up for these people instead of being so cautious as to not get into a legal battle (that's why they have a law department, right?) we might have a chance at better neighborhoods all over. So far I've seen information from the West Village, Leroy area, Bailey Avenue area and whereever onestartmarting is writing from. This is a scourge situation that seems to be everyehere but n o one with authority is doing anything about it except for mrogers note about the cops in her area. So why are we paying taxes?
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sbrof
These people that cause the problems are still going to be around whether or not the corner deli's are there. It really just seems like a lack of police presence. If owners allow illegal activities to go on in or around their properties then I think they should be held accountable especially if they reward or are a part of it. But beyond that I don't know what should be done. Sure the same crack addict that breaks into a car looking for change is the guy that might go to that store for a 1.50 40 but does that mean the store shouldn't exist? I am sure there are drug dealers and prostitutes that shop at wegmans but people are not saying it attracts a bad crowd.
Businesses attract people it is what they do and I don't think they should be faulted for that alone. Unfortunately cars and houses get messed with on streets all over the city. Even those have no corner stores that are easy to blame. What are those people to do? Closing some deli's would be a good thing but the problem people are just going to move on and bother someone else. It is like the vacant house problem. Tear down the house and the dealers just move on to the next one. The problem with that is it doesn't solve in inherent problem since the dealers and prostitutes are still on the street. At least if there are known problem deli's you should be able to avoid and maybe even know where to go to arrest them. The question I have is if it is so obvious how come they are not in jail? Sounds like a lack of good police work because there are people saying where the problems are but still not have not solved the problem.
If I was mayor Brown I would get a list of these really problematic deli's and schedule a cop car to drive by every 10 minutes... But I guess you would still have to trust that the cops if they did see something suspicious would actually investigate it instead of just drive by ignoring it. Unfortunately our police force isn't proactive but reactionary. If they were stopping by and asking random people questions around an area I guarantee it would make anyone doing something illegal there think twice about that location and if it was happening like that all over the place then maybe they would realize it is too risky. But right now the police just wait around for something bad to happen and then show up to pick up the pieces.
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AtwaterLouse
Because police arresting people very seldom leads to them ending up in jail except for a few hours until their bail or arraignment the next day. The system is a big revolving door.
I don't see how we can say its necessarily bad police work. No doubt the criminals among the customers being complained most about have each been arrested by police many times but haven't been sentenced to much prison. Hiring more police is fine, but if you consider what a huge number of streets and blocks there are it can't make a big impact if people they arrest are back at whatever they were arrested for the next day.
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sbrof
Atwater you hit the nail on the head of the real issue here then. If our justice system is little more than a revolving door then the number cops would never make a difference. Just as closing down every deli wouldn't solve the problems either. We also should try and take the glam out of a jail sentence. What ever happened to making them work community services. There is a lot of garbage along our highways can could use some cleaning. Maybe a little embarrassment would do the system some good to dissuade them from wanting to go back.
How does one change the system for criminal sentencing? Is it even possible on a local level or are these things that come down from higher up? Is there some way to putting these people cleaning up the neighborhoods they have helped to destroy. Get them sweeping the streets, cutting down weeds, dealing with bees and rats because of the fear and disinvestment they caused. Put them out where people can either say thank you for helping or shame on you for messing up. even if the words are not uttered they are probably running through their heads. How does a community have to go about changing its punitive laws and can / should we push for that more than band aid approaches to a corner here or a corner there?
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RisingDamp666
If the city won't address public nuissances like this deli, then the answer is to firebomb them out of existence. The reason for a justice system is to avoid vigilantism. The reason for vigilantism is to address wrongs that a dysfunctional system won't or cannot. Which would Buffalo rather have?
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Sal
MR - a 2002 lien see (http://ecclerk.erie.gov:9080/prod_public_view/detail_frame.jsp?doc_id=15141338) lists Ahmed Abubaker's address as 892 N CLINTON AVE ROCHESTER NY 14621.
Thanks for answering the questions raised. It would be interesting to hear Commissioner Tobe's views on this also.
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Einstein
On the matter of police, we have had an outstanding relationship with B District for many years and commend the officers and their brass for making sure they do whatever they can. Unfortunately, 911 operators do not necessarily take calls regarding loitering, drug sales, public drunkenness, public defecation and urination, and others like them seriously and they are placed on the back-burner, left to languish and be dispatched long after the event has taken place. Additionally, particularly in B District, the population density and crime events are significant and the police have a great deal on their hands
Let's not enable poor policing, we have added 100+ cops to the streets, we have officers who pull in $100K+ a year in overtime, there is no excuse for this. We know that these problems exist, fixing them shouldn't depend on the local residents to continually bring them to the Police's attention via 911. The Police should have a presence in this neighborhood, 24x7. Park a cruiser out front of these establishments and hold the officers accountable for arresting anyone involved in criminal activity.
If the police won't do it, then I agree with RD666, vigilante justice is in order. Videotape the criminal activity that happens outside the store, videotape the hooker as she is picked up. Maybe we could convince the Buffalo Police to put up one of their secret cameras outside, after all this is a high crime area. If not, then provoke the scumbags and hookers to attack and kill them. Easy as that, a few citizens taking the law into their own hands may be the one thing that gets Commissioner Gibson and his lazy ass police force into gear to protect the residents of this city.
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whynot
Acid and paint on cars, death threats, vandalizing homes and cars... all this and still no action? It makes me want to up and move to Williamsville. The burbs don't have to deal with this stuff. Those cops ain't no joke either!
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tudorguy
You're right, whynot - that's why I'm actively looking OUTSIDE of the city limits. Williamsville or East Aurora. I don't need to deal with this crap.
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fredrico
Thank you for this article and bringing this huge problem to more peoples attention. I thought I was the only one living in Deli corner fright night hell until I read what others are going through. But I am not going to run away to the burbs!! I am not going to let the scum bags take over our neighborhood (at least not without trying to solve it first. Thats whats wrong with the world today - too many people look the other way when people are being abused and just try to make life comfortable for themselves. Well I learned an important lesson when I was growing up in the projects. If someone (or a gang) is beating you up - if you run - sooner or later they will come a find you. You are better off to stand up- and face them and show them you will not be beaten and THAT IS WHAT IS NEEDED HERE.
I own a home near the deli that is on the corner of Grant and Garner. Over and over , in and out , endlessly all day long - cars pull up and by "cigars" and other drug paraphernalia. It has become the "meeting place and hot spot " in the neighborhood for drugs and prostitution. Prostitutes use the pay phone outside the deli door to conduct business. Many robberies have occurred at the pizzeria next door. Because it's handy to the deli --- in the nearby back yards prostitutes work their johns and crack dealers conduct their transactions.
Please read the "police and crime report" section that is in the Buffalo News daily. You will find that block - Grant street between Garner and Forest (the 400 numbers) in the paper at least once a week.
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simcoe
I'm prepared to be pelted here, but why is Rodgers always hailed as some god damned wrecking ball of justice? This has got to be the most lame brained resolution I've ever heard of. Ya, close all the delis down and then what? All the criminal elements and low lifes are going to disappear and move to the burbs, you've got to be kidding me. Someone moves to the West or East sides and you want to improve the quality of life, of course, but those areas are gone, gome, gone. They're Northern Ireland, Beirut, & Lebanon combined. They're combat zones now, you can't do a damn thing by closing down f-ing delis. Do I have the answer, yes a new chapter of the Guardian Angels (just kidding) aside from a silencer & a ninja outfit I can't think of anything, but closing businesses down is not it.
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AtwaterLouse
sbrof - Good points, good questions:
If I'm not mistaken, Buffalo City Court judges are selected to run rubber-stamp elections by a Democratic Party endorsement committee. Mayors occasionally appoint them upon mid-term vacancies. I've no idea how the public could influence either of those processes to select different mind set judges who'd give more jail time and/or hard work punishments for the kinds of crimes we're talking about.
But I agree with you it'd be a real solution compared to more arrests-without-prison or fewer delis. Since a toughening on punishment probably won't be happening around ehre, fighting the delis is one of the few things citizens can do so I don't blame them for trying. However it sounds like a very depressing cat-mouse game. New delis will keep popping up, or criminals will find alternatives to delis.
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simcoe
Einstein, c'mon, really. You want to get a group together and take on these people? I know some people involved in dealing and while I don't know you I don't think you or any vigilante group would fair too well. these are people that have been incarcerated over and over again and are proverbial bad-asses. This is what drives me crazy about BRO, this is the city, this what the city has become. All the positive stuff covered here focuses on such diminishing pockets. I really admire the efforts, seriously, but you can't will the city back to life with positive spin. And it's not just Buffalo, it's endemic in every urban locale in the US.
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AtwaterLouse
fredrico - You're right and it's even worse than Buffalo News crime reports imply. Notice they report 3 or 4 crimes each day for everything that happens across the whole city. There must be a lot of filtering to meet their few inches of space they set aside for that.
simcoe - Maybe you should start all your comments with 'I'm prepared to be pelted here, but'. You're right though, so I won't pelt you at all. Even if the shadiest bunch of delis all disappeared the same problems would go on. People feel frustrated so they want to do something to fight back. The good ideas for that just aren't practical so what's left is worse ideas.
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BROKEEPSBLOCKINGME
{deleted- racist ranting}
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sbrof
I want to second fredrico's comments. Running away from this isn't going to solve anything. The problems just spread. What was one bad neighborhood has engulfed almost the entire east side. Now all the same problems as the east side are starting to creep into Sloan, Cheektowaga, Tonawanda, Lackawanna is already reelling from the problems. Those residents hold on and then move off to greener pastures. Where does it end? Amherst? Well parts of that are already feeling the bite because of problems in the University district. It is only a matter of time.
Look at how fast thousands of acres of the east side became desolate.. 50 years? what about another 50... What about our grand children's WNY. How bad would the first ring suburbs be? The galleria would be in the middle of a ghetto and the businesses would flee along with the residents. Is this something we want to perpetuate? Wasting more land, more infrastructure more tax money to pay for all of it? It isn't sustainable or logical. We need to draw lines in the sand and say enough is enough. But again most people are content to run off to a cul-de-sac and live out their days in ignorance that their decisions affect anything larger than themselves. Should be have the right to better their lives for themselves and others, yes. Should they be able to do it at the expense of others. No I don't think they should. I don't care if you, your parents, grand parents ran away from violence or disinvestment just don't look back and say HA your problem now. Because whether we want to admit it or not we are all in this together. Poverty, crime, vacant houses don't stop at invisible political boundaries.
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Joshua
Eli - thanks for posting this article. MR - I'm going to send you an email soon. Thanks!
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telstart
Simcoe, no pelting, just a question. Do you say the same thing about Michelle Johnson, Michael Gainer or Harvey Garret? Then why dump on one woman who has worked hard as a community leader and has made some significant changes for the better? Afterall, she didn’t write the resolution, CM Smith did.
As far as the criminals metoned here, if the delis would be responsible and responsive businesses, they wouldn’t rule the roost like they do. Every business has a responsibility to be a good citizen just like we all do. If this weren’t true then we would have a wild west scene going on everywhere.
Atwater, when the west side deli closed for three months the area was eerily quiet and we saw more kids on the street, playing. I’ve lived a few blocks from there for almost 25 years and it was like a vacation.
The common council could make a difference just by allowing their constituents to have a voice. Seems like all we get are laws and rules imposed but nor enforced by government and we scream about accountability. This gives the people a voice and that accountability.
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AtwaterLouse
BROKEEPSBLOCKINGME's name is perfect. That deleted comment didn't mention any race and didn't violate any terms/conditions (wasn't "abusive, obscene, threatening, harassing, defamatory, libelous, offensive or sexually explicit").
It was consistent with many comments from others above which are still sitting there - such as tudorguy's comment and whynot's comment. To call that deleted comment 'racist' is libelious.
On an unrelated matter I'm sure, welcome back Elena.
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bizcomplete
Calling a comment can't be libelous, by the way. Libel is making a fale statement of fact about a person - you can't libel a comment. Carry on.
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AtwaterLouse
biz- you make a good point. But to delete somebody's non-racist comment and publicly state falsely that is was racist is... something. Not sure what word to use, but you're right it's not libelious. Maybe abusive or defamatory. At the very least it was lying.
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telstart
atwater, yeah it was, he used the first names in a negative manner.
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telstart
As for the result of the article? A lot more people commented on how they've been threatened or experienced damage to their property due to standing up for what is right. What I would suggest is that this group get together and start a coalition of sorts. Strength in numbers, folks.
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simcoe
Wow, so many things to address, will this thread go 100+? In the end I'm sorry but running away is the only solution, esp if you have children. Unless you can afford a decent house (harder & harder to find in Buffalo) and private schools and you're a run of the mill middle class person/cpl the majority of people don't have the time or tenacity to put up with the drugs, freaks, corrupt police & apathetic court system, robberies, etc. etc. Places like Amherst just don't have the housing infrastructure to ever support people who perpetuate the underbelly of society, so while general crime might spread it's not a matter of the East & West sides spreading like a disease throughout all of Erie County sbrof.
telstart-Those other people don't get the same press that Rodgers does, at least here. You would think it's a one woman crusade. Also, why does every business have a responsibility to be a "good citizen" perhaps using your moral code, yes, then again what about Mobil, Enron, the Cargo *&%$ in Hamburg. Morality has become a fairly relative thing from the collapsing delis to the big boys.
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ChristaSeychew
Marilyn Rodgers is a fascinating and tenacious woman. If we could clone her I have no doubt that Buffalo would see drastic changes in its struggling neighborhoods. I'm unable to comment on the other activists mentioned here because I am unaware of their work, but if they fall into Ms. Rodgers' company they certainly deserve accolades as well.
I think that the only way we will take back these areas of the city is one neighborhood, one corner store, one abandoned building at a time. Thinking about the scope of the problem can make this feel like a losing battle, but there are people out there--black, white, young, old, male, female, educated, and not so educated--fighting for their home, their neighborhood and their safety every day. They deserve our support in spirit if nothing else (though it wouldn't kill us to pitch in and help a little, too.)
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fredrico
I am not saying shut down all the deli's. I am saying - why do the cops drive around all night long looking for criminal activity when they know (hey if I know - then they must know) that there is a criminal smörgåsbord going on right at the deli. Isn't it interesting that when Mayor Brown went to a few areas in the city with a huge parade of cops to encourage people to snitch (do you remember when that was on the news and they did a big story on it) that the mayor picked that very corner- Grant & Garner as one of the spots to broadcast from. Officer Dina and some other high ranking cops arrived before the mayor and I approached them and asked them why they don't have more visibility there more often? I have also spoken to Chief of Police McCarthey Gibson about putting more police there. I also asked that a camera be installed there. These are the kinds of things I think should be done.
As far as the deli's go - They deli owners need to be forced to stop selling drug paraphernalia!!!!
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AtwaterLouse
telstart - No, he had street names in a negative manner - including Niagara and some others.
Anyhow back to the topic, I agree with you removing a problem deli can make surrounding blocks safer but don't you think the customers who had been causing problems there just went to somebody else's blocks and kept doing what they do? Maybe it made your blocks better for those 3 months and someone else's worse? I don't blame people for fighting nearby delis since that's one of the few things they can do, but how can it not just end up moving the problems a little bit?
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simcoe
Christa-The solution does not lie in lame cliches.
Freddy-Don't ever try to figure out the Bflo Police. I know some amazing individual officers but as a system it's about as dysfunctional as an organization can get. The leadership has been lacking for decades. It's funny that the BPD & DA's office are so often immune to criticism, yet they are two of the main players in aiding in the decline of the quality of city life.
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FrankQPublic
I am a resident in the Allentown section of the city and I have seen the retribution that these unworthy deli owners have wright on those who intend to protect their neigborhoods. Christa has a very valid point and her comment is neither lame nor invalid. Without community leaders we would be in dire conditions. They are there to defend others who live in fear.
We are losing our good residents due to inaction to defend the law by the city government. After fighting the good fight anyone would have to take a back seat. If that is what makes simcoe and others feel good and comfy, then you might really wonder who they really are under their handles.
We have to support those who would stand in the front lines if we cannot do it ourselves for any reason. the smell of urine and feces on a summer morning is disgusting. The gangs and thugs standing and blocking the doorways to corner stores only send one message, "We own this spot." and the owners sit back and smile.
There are many good stores. This resolution does not attack those that keep the peace or act as good neighbors, it only goes after those who break the law. Attacking individuals, whether the store owners or those they send to do their bidding, or those who feel they can judge from a seat at their computer is utter nonsense.
By the way, Christa, every time I have attempted to give you a high rating it goes from "6 ratings" to "5 ratiings", something is awry with the star system.
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RaChaCha
Marilyn, I enjoyed meeting you in Your Fair City earlier this year. I'm horrified to hear that you've been the target of retaliation for your good work and immense caring - my best regards and wishes. In case it may be helpful for the City policy discussion, I've copied below a comment I made to a January 17 BRO article triggered by a letter from Christopher Siano about this very same store.
www.buffalorising.com/story/my_name_is_christopher_siano_1 " We had a lot of similar problems here in RaChaCha with "problem businesses" - often located on corners, and almost always preying on the low-income - and still do, but to a smaller degree. Several years ago we instituted a new city-wide business certificate/license system which involves the accumulation of points for nuisance problems like those described by Christopher. Get too many points, and action is taken, up to and including revocation of the business license at which point the business is effectively shut down. Sure, some determined nuisances have tried to continue operating, say under a relative's name, but eventually the system catches up. The additional level of enforcement and administration of the program is largely self-funded by an increase in the business license fee. This program gives our City, neighborhood associations, and citizens who care (like your Christopher) a mechanism for cracking down on businesses and owners like this who may simply not care about anything other than a threat of closure.
If Buffalo doesn't have a program similar to this (or does, but is not enforcing it or working with neighborhoods to implement it), check out the program in RaChaCha, and get your council members involved. One of the Buffalo Control Board members is a former Rochester City Council member who worked on setting up the program - a very decent fellow who I'm sure would be open to talking about getting something similar going in Buffalo. "
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simcoe
ya frank I'm the mayor of Buffalo hiding under this handle as you call it. I feel for all of you making a go of it in these troubled areas, but frank you offer up a lot of gibberish. For starters, you give the impression of a pretty feeble person hiding behind your curtains. Anyone should have the right to live wherever they want yet that's not the case in the real world. If you're hiding behind the mantle of others get out! The smell of urine is most likely coming from patrons of the bars and not the delis so what the hell are you talking about, that's a totally separate issue.
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WeLovePanos
BROKEEPS said something along these lines... "These people dont care about a life, they hit their women, teach their 12 year olds how to smoke Philly Blunts and swisher sweets, worry about their rims more than their kids, and get paid by welfare to pop out more kids... "
Why do we keep electing politicians who allow his cycle to go on? No wonder people leave this area every day! Why would successful people want to pay to allow people to live off the system? The taxes, workers comp, and insurance here kills entrepenuerial dreams eveyday... Enough is enough... Take back the streets from these thugs and hoodrats... As RD666 said, become a vigilante... do what has to be done, but if you do, make sure you do it right because they will keep coming after u
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WeLovePanos
go ahead Eli keep deleting...well call u the new Bill Zimmerman of BRO...
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excop
In response to the comments about vigilante justice, please keep in mind:
Under Section 35.15, "A person may not use deadly physical force upon another person...unless...He reasonably believes that such other person is committing or attempting to commit [one of certain enumerated predicate offenses, including robbery]. This law was expanded in 1985 to include the instruction to jurors to consider a defendant's background and to consider whether a reasonable person would feel imperiled if that reasonable person was the defendant. In other words, if you were in a similar position and similar state of mind, would you respond in the same way. Put yourself in a jurors seat and consider a neighbor of one of these establishments who feels that s/he is at risk from the patrons of the deli mentioned above, this person may fear for the safety of his/her family, house, and other property, but may feel that calling the police will put him/her at greater risk. Past calls to the police may have resulted in retaliation and retribution. The person may feel backed in a corner with no where to turn but to take action on his/her own behalf. How would a jury rule in a trial with this person as a defendant?
Most Police Officers will tell you to never take the law into your own hands, but secretly many wish that more citizens would do the job that they are not allowed to do. It is frustrating to watch the same criminals and scumbags cycle through the legal system to the point that you are on a first name basis with them and they are laughing at you as they are being arrested. There is no respect for the law and the Police are at a significant disadvantage when compared to the criminals. The Police are bound by rules, laws, and protocols that the criminals do not follow. When it comes to situations like the one mentioned above, the Police are probably not going to be able to help the average citizen because the criminals have so many rights.
One comment that stuck with me from the Bernhard Goetz trial was a person who stated that Goetz should have been thinking about Darrell Cabey's mother before he pulled the trigger. My thought is that Darrell Cabey should have been thinking about his mother before he committed any of the felonies that he was arrested for before he met Mr. Goetz. Same goes for Allen, Canty, and Ramseur, they should have made some better decisions. That said, Mr. Ramseur and Allen went on to commit several more crimes before finally ending up in jail for 25 and 7 years respectively. It goes to show that some criminals aren't going to change as a result of a closed deli, things won't change until their lives, property, and future are in jeopardy. When it comes to gangs, one of the most severe forms of retribution is killing a member's grandmother or mother, this is one of the only things that I have seen that has turned a banger into an informant. Good luck out there.
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Brette
LOL!! Love the irony of deletion of BROKEEPSBLOCKINGME coments on THIS article! He's kinda the Problem Deli around here that won't clean up its act even under shutdown threat!!! But those of us in this here 'neighborhood' keep calling in & love it when we see the 'cops' taking action. Wonder if we'll get some acid comments thrown in retaliation.
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nightrider
brette-Perhaps you should not take the tone of speaking for everyone here.
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chillplz
I find the commentary on this blog hilarious, its destined for a successful movie script. The real characters being mentioned here I feel are exemplified through out every major city with big pockets for welfare handouts across the U.S. The reality of the matter, is that the acid stains, the paint thrown on cars, the Accusations of Thugz and hoes hangin outside of his or her deli, the selling dope scenarios, is a mere fact that people are not simply communicating with each other directly, and this animosity will persist, because getting apathetic politicians involved in your business will not solve anything. They have other agendas. Instead, I believe politically if we are so angry at deli's, we should really be getting off our seats to fight for a preemptive strike on getting welfare heads to show up everyday at a job. I mean, common on, why should it be so easy for them. Remember, we are subsidizing the habits of people that you habitually discrimate upon, so make this a note to yourself.
If you have lived in any other city, the city arenas that become a success are by the mere fact of people having the dialogue between class, race, etc lines, yet, without their financial backing, and the ultimate result which most people may go against, but ,can't deny brings progress, is job growth resulting in a gentrified population. It is not fare for the deli owner to have to leave his long standing business that helps cater to the honest hard working citizen and the opposing adverse characters to this script, nor is it fare for someone like the resident citizen living in that vicintiy to this deli, to have to go through vindicative acts like the ones embellished here in this thread.
By eliminating a deli that caters to a majority of welfare class or by imposing large meetings with fellow comrades and political backing to shut S(HE) will not solve this matter. We have a bigger issue to contend with, and most of us are aware of this, and its in promoting strong businesses downtown. Because, when more than half of your population is collecting welfare and sitting around all day not activating those brain sells mommy & daddy gave them, then what is their to look forward to, another blunt, or a day in the park with, Crack head Kenny.'
We are going to continue facing this up hill battle in our communities until we ask ourselves, 'How are we all getting by day to day.'
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Deliking
Here is an interesting side story, recently while shopping at a local food distributor I observed a group of ethnic individuals buying large quantities of food stuffs not in their usual diet as proscribed by religious practice. These same individuals paid for those same food items using food vouchers or credit cards which are government issued.
I commented on their unusual food purchases and method of payment to the security person on duty at the time, my friend informed me they where in fact Deli owners and frequent customers. He further stated, it was a good thing the place we were at didn't sell cigarettes or they would be there more often.
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