The Inner Harbor: A Vision
It is time to think creatively about how the waterfront should be developed. We need to lay the foundation for an urban district where retailers want to locate, people want to live and visitors want to experience, regardless of what particular store is located there. An environment must be constructed that satisfies the needs of all parties in a way that private development will happen not because millions of dollars are being offered, but because there are millions of dollars to be made.
This plan is an elaboration of the 2004 master plan currently under construction and argues that public funds invested 100% into ‘canal district’ infrastructure can leverage private development by creating extraordinarily unique and developable sites for retailers to locate.
The primary infrastructure improvement is the extension of the Commercial Slip and the dredging of both the original Erie Canal and the Main and Hamburg Canal within the Aud property. This recaptures the intersection of these waterways and one of the most exciting moments in Buffalo’s history. It would be the heart of a new canal district that at its core is a major retail center anchoring a dynamic new neighborhood. This plan was created with the hope of setting a precedent for rebuilding some of Buffalo’s historic canal system and using it as a framework for future development.
The obvious advantage of extending the Commercial Slip and dredging the canals is the increase in developable land immediately adjacent to water. These locations then become much more valuable to private interests. In this scheme there is the potential for both large and small scale retail and restaurant space with residential above to be located adjacent to the canals. Specifically, the structure directly at the end of the Commercial Slip and visible from 190 would be capable of accommodating an extremely large retailer, such as a multi-level Bass Pro providing a prime location adjacent to both plentiful parking and water. However any structure within the site should at its ground level provide for multiple retailers to generate enough foot traffic to create a vibrant district.
Major parking facilities flank the east and west sides of the retail core, as shown above. These are the optimum locations because they are the most easily accessible by downtown road and highway infrastructure and prevent an overflow of traffic onto the pedestrian oriented streets of the site, while not completely limiting automobile access. Additionally the Metro Rail station occurs directly within the core of the retail center at Main Street encouraging visitor travel into downtown Buffalo via the fare free zone.
The plan is predicated upon the idea of removing both the Skyway and the Memorial Auditorium. However, it is understood that the Aud is likely to be removed first and therefore, the plan must be implemented in phases. The skyway itself is a major obstacle as one of the piers stands directly in the path of the Commercial Slip.
The first phase is the development of the Aud site. The retail structures can be built fronting to a temporary public space or perhaps even a partially dredged canal and connecting via an elevated walkway to a parking garage and mixed use development on the Donovan site. This primary development capable of accommodating a Bass Pro will serve as the anchor to the retail tenants surrounding it.
The second phase of the plan following the removal of the Skyway would include dredging the remainder of the commercial slip and the canals, in addition to opening up the second lot of canal-side land for mixed use and retail.
In drawing the water further inland, the viability of “canal era” type buildings greatly increases as they take advantage of small footprints and their proximity to the water. The result is a larger development area, where, when standing inside this area, the density and vibrancy of the tight-knit mixed use areas of the past is surrounding on all four sides. The view above is north along Commercial Street, which is currently under construction, looking along the Commercial Slip on the right. By building mostly on a smaller scale, it allows development up to just feet from the water, while also allowing plenty of permeable public access, through and around each building, to the water.
Several bridges, both pedestrian and automobile, must be constructed crossing the slip and canals replicating the look of ones that existed and providing for exciting vistas of the waterways and surrounding development. A major interpretive element is included in the rendering above, the Immigrant Steps seen in the foreground. Historically, this location along the Erie Canal, at the end of the Commercial Slip, is where passenger boats would dock, often carrying European Immigrants. Buffalo’s diversity of ethnic backgrounds finds its origin here. These steps, while incorporating a significant piece of nostalgia, also serve as a major functional part of the site. Seen in the distance on this rendering is the Metro Rail Station on Main Street.
While the 2004 Master Plan excludes development on the Central Wharf site, development can be accommodated in this location if it provides visual access to the water from upland streets, physical access to the central wharf boardwalk from the terminus of Hanover, Lloyd, and Perry Street, multiple storefronts and food vendors to generate foot traffic, and maintain a wide pedestrian boardwalk adjacent to the water. The original central wharf Bass Pro plan had maintained a wide boardwalk, but had physically blocked access except at distant ends of its building. If the central wharf is not going to be developed in a sensitive manner then it should remain as planned, a public park.
We need to develop the Inner Harbor in the context of its surroundings, its history, and most importantly, its water. This plan is about leveraging the site’s best resource. Build this infrastructure, and development will follow. Maybe not overnight, but over time we will get the right development without selling our waterfront short.
This plan is being put forth as an effort to experiment with what could be done on the site, with realistic ideas and dollars. There is no one way to develop the inner harbor, but there are certainly some better ideas than others. No matter what you support, we all want a vibrant waterfront and believe it can happen.
Design and Rendering Credits: Greg Leonard.
Comment Options
eyepharded
Would be, should be, could be...
Report this
Hospitable
Well.. take the skyway down and then we can get excited about these renderings.
More drawings... great... just wondering though if this is actually wahts being pitched/planned for the actualy waterfront.. more high rises, parking, office buildings.. etc. I'm all for development of the outer harbor, but this seems a little ridicolous with the current market for space in wny.
I don't think its smart to initially pitch this type of waterfront.. I'd like to see some attractions down there, with parking and train access.. that aides in and supports the growth of the current downtown. ( Something infront of the hsbc arena, weather museum next store, basspro down the road) I wasn't for Basspro locating directly on the waterfront/central wharf, but I did like the historic recreation of a building they were located in... I could definitely see it there as a Navy Pier/PIer 17 look alike Buffalo Style. ( MInimal parking as well.)
I mean doesn't this whole waterfront development thing represent what we've been getting wrong forever.. what would it take to pour some of this money from the power authority into downtown infrastructure and the waterfront??
I
Report this
tinker
That is one point of view.
It cost us $49M and several more years of waiting to make the little bit of progress that is visible at the end of Main Street. How long will we close off the rest of the waterfront to make this plan happen? How much will it cost for the basic foundation to be laid? Do we have backing for this, or is this just another artist's rendering of what could be if we all believed that a historic district will indeed pay dividends and offer a return on investment.
One thing I love about Americans is our ability to compartmentalize taxes, as though we are not contributing to the Federal taxes that are shelled out each year for pet projects like this all around America. Where is the financial and business discipline? Where is the return on investment?
I can't wait to read the next few dozen posts. They will all contain the same rhetoric about pedestrian this and re-water that. Mass transit over parking and eco friendly designs. Small business incubation over big box retail. The list goes on and on and on and on post after post after post.
What makes you think that retail will survive on the waterfront if it can't survive on Main Street or thrive on Elmwood Ave? What makes you think that this new silver bullet will lure stores from the Galleria and people from Orchard Park back to the city?
You are all so misguided by your idealism. Sit behind your computer and talk about what you want to see happen. You all need to get real. The fundamentals have to be there before the rest of this will come to fruition. If we build it with hopes that the people will come then we will wind up with just one more expensive project that will forever seal our fate as the mistake on the lake.
Report this
TownLine
Tinker - sooooooooo do nothing? Never another project in this region? Those complaints were great, glad we finally found the solution....
Report this
sbrof
"development on the Central Wharf site, development can be accommodated in this location if it provides visual access to the water from upland streets, physical access to the central wharf" is the best line from that whole article and is at the center of the former Bass Pro Issue. It actually seems like a very smart move and a very smart expansion on the previous plan.
Plan that are adopted by government hold weight in many ways. They give developers a sense of securty about their investments because they know and can see where the city is going to be going and investing. If this plan is adopted then developers know that the skyway is going to be fought and eventually removed, they see the smart allocation of land between public and private, they see the reasons that will draw people to the site, history and water.
Plans also give weight with governments. You can't get federal dollars for projects like this without proving where the money is going to be spent and how. These plans give the foundation for higher public investment. Other cities did this in the 70-80's we only started in the 90's with actually seriously and publicly backed plans.
The current canal is happening and is coming along rather nicely I think especially now that Bass Pro isn't on the central wharf the reconstruction of the street infrastructure can continue. I also whole heartedly agree with the sentiment that the city should be spending ALL of its money on infrastructure, create a place worth going to and private development, locally or nationally will follow suit. Spending money on hand outs is the easiest way to see nothing returned for your investment.
Report this
hrbuffinstuff
A million spectators, a million opinions, a million critics, a million visionaries. Planners, Planners, Planners all. Where are the Doers? It's part of the spectator mentality: "I'm going to show my worth by my opinions"
"It is not the critic who counts: not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles or where the doer of deeds could have done better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood, who strives valiantly, who errs and comes up short again and again, because there is no effort without error or shortcoming, but who knows the great enthusiasms, the great devotions, who spends himself for a worthy cause; who, at the best, knows, in the end, the triumph of high achievement, and who, at the worst, if he fails, at least he fails while daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who knew neither victory nor defeat." - Theodore Roosevelt
It's part of a collective sickness of Buffalo. Do the same thing over and over again and expect different results? Insanity.
Report this
cdubmoo
I can't believe how many curmudgeons the City of Buffalo has in its borders. The would have, could have, should have metality is what's holding the city back. Sure pretty renderings and promises won't bring back business to Buffalo. It won't guarantee Buffalo's prosperity. But business surely won't come back if NOTHING is done. Sometimes I feel as though Buffalo wants to be the underdog... the struggling city that only its current inhabitants want to be in... well if you truly feel that we have misguided idealism and that Buffalo is indeed the mistake on the lake, then you should find a new place to live. As for Buffalo, let's keep our idealism, our hope that a plan like this can - WILL - take place. Get behind our elected officials and put continued pressure on them until it gets done. DEMAND that it gets done. As long as we continue to think business won't invest here, it won't. Start showing people that Buffalo is a rich, historic, and vibrant community that anyone would be proud to call home.... and not a mistake.
Report this
eyepharded
"curmudgeons" great term.
Report this
Spaulding97
God! Im 25, and i'll be dead before anything ever happens. Another wait and see.
Report this
Spaulding97
Oh yeah, the rederings look great! I would love it if the canals were to go that far in. It would look awsome and would work.
Report this
josephr921
We may be dead before anything ever happens, but let's make sure our children stay in Buffalo so they can fight the same fight we are today. Otherwise, they'll move to Buffalo Jr. down in North Carolina and all these pretty renderings will do nothing more than secure the jobs of the local artists.
Report this
gaustad
I am glad I am not the only pessimist on this website. I wish I has something to look forward to in the city of Buffalo, but the reality is there is really nothing significant happaning that will make this a nice place to live in the near future. ( 5 yrs out)
The cold hard truth is, we are realitically 30-40 years from putting this city on the map. That includes: extending the light rail, waterfront development, bringing traffic to main st., losing our footbal team, a new peace bridge, corporate turnarounds, etc etc
No one on this website will really live to to enjoy any of it.
It is better to accept then to lie to yourself and believe that any/all of these projects will come to fruition any time soon
Report this
RonR
While I am a huge fan of the skyway coming down, am I the only person who sees the problem with the General Mills plant in regards to development of the harbor? I just do not see residential development being successful when the view for half of the units is a working manufacturing plant.
Additional to this, the region is divided on the skyway. Until the residents of the city are convinced on the benefit of the skyway coming down, the residents of the northern and southern towns will will. They have a vested interest in keeping the skyway up as it effects their commute. Residents of the city are indifferent in my opinion to the skyway as it does not effect them on a daily basis. Unless you consider the cost of maintaining it. The challenge with this is city residents are numb to the unnecessary taxes, they do not know where to start.
I feel in order to have the skyway come down, we need a striking blow. We need a developer who will commit to come in and develop the entire area. We need a "if" and "then" from deep pockets. Not a "if" and "maybe" from a visionary group. Now matter how passionate John Norquist is, he is not going to be spending any money on the project. We need to sell a developer on the vision who is willing to come in an spend money.
An example would be Gaylord Entertainment. They are a Nashville TN, lodging and entertainment organization. In a nutshell, they build hotel and convention center complexes around the US that mixes retail and residential space. There were about to start a 1 BILLION dollar project in San Diego (Chula Vista) but could not come to terms with labor. Because of this, I think they may be looking for a new project.
Now companies like Gaylord have a safe play in building out convention center complexes compared to municipalities. The reason being is they lock groups into multiple year contracts. They have properties in Florida, Texas and Tennessee. When an organization does business with them, they book conventions in multiple years at the different venues. This provides a security blanket as a new operation would have built in business.
Anyways, I want to see the skyway come down but there needs to be more behind the movement then some nice drawings and studies.
We need the residents of the city to understand the long term benefit of this and how it will help the tax base.
We need the residents of Erie county to realize it is not just about their commute.
We need a developer who is not tied to elected leaders to come in and do the job.
Report this
chrish
A plan being put forth by whom, by what, with whom as backers? Is this a variation on ECHDC's "revised" plan?
Report this
RonR
While I am a huge fan of the skyway coming down, am I the only person who sees the problem with the General Mills plant in regards to development of the harbor? I just do not see residential development being successful when the view for half of the units is a working manufacturing plant.
Additional to this, the region is divided on the skyway. Until the residents of the city are convinced on the benefit of the skyway coming down, the residents of the northern and southern towns will will. They have a vested interest in keeping the skyway up as it effects their commute. Residents of the city are indifferent in my opinion to the skyway as it does not effect them on a daily basis. Unless you consider the cost of maintaining it. The challenge with this is city residents are numb to the unnecessary taxes, they do not know where to start.
I feel in order to have the skyway come down, we need a striking blow. We need a developer who will commit to come in and develop the entire area. We need a "if" and "then" from deep pockets. Not a "if" and "maybe" from a visionary group. Now matter how passionate John Norquist is, he is not going to be spending any money on the project. We need to sell a developer on the vision who is willing to come in an spend money.
An example would be Gaylord Entertainment. They are a Nashville TN, lodging and entertainment organization. In a nutshell, they build hotel and convention center complexes around the US that mixes retail and residential space. There were about to start a 1 BILLION dollar project in San Diego (Chula Vista) but could not come to terms with labor. Because of this, I think they may be looking for a new project.
Now companies like Gaylord have a safe play in building out convention center complexes compared to municipalities. The reason being is they lock groups into multiple year contracts. They have properties in Florida, Texas and Tennessee. When an organization does business with them, they book conventions in multiple years at the different venues. This provides a security blanket as a new operation would have built in business.
Anyways, I want to see the skyway come down but there needs to be more behind the movement then some nice drawings and studies.
We need the residents of the city to understand the long term benefit of this and how it will help the tax base.
We need the residents of Erie county to realize it is not just about their commute.
We need a developer who is not tied to elected leaders to come in and do the job.
Report this
42nate
That General Mills plant provides tax revenues and jobs, for heaven's sake! People scream on BRO about JOBS JOBS JOBS and are then ready to flush some of the better-paying ones down the toilet to improve the scenery for a privileged few.
I LOVE the General Mills plant. It makes all of downtown smell like a pastry shop when they're making Cheerios. I find it visually interesting. I like having productive uses on the waterfront. I appreciate Buffalo's industrial heritage and what little is left of it. Mixed-use doesn't mean shopping and recreation only.
Report this
bjfan82
"Just Do It" - Eliot Spitzer
Report this
chris69
I agree, the General Mills Plant is actually an advantage..providing density and diversity. I only wish that Buffalo could have landed Barilla next to General Mills.
Actually this relies on two premises. The First is that the Skyway comes down and two that there is a single Parkway for the outer harbor instead of both Route5 Expresway and Fuhrmann Blvd of which I agree but thats going to be a huge battle with intransigent NYSDOT. It can be done easily by redirecting Route5 traffic along the "TO BE" constructed Tifft Street Arterial. This is another battle I think can be fought and won! If we win this battle a bridge can be constructed at Erie, Pearl or Main to Furhmann Boulevard
I also support the expansion of the Commercial Slip to the Erie Canal & Main/Hamburg Canal. This must be done.
The biggest drawbacks to the plan is just something that was omitted: 1) how the Naval Park, Erie Basin Marina and LaSalle Park should be integrated to the North 2) how the DL&W to the South should be integrated to the South 3) and the limitation to one story canal buildings when the original canal building along Front Street were 3 stories. As a matter of fact, the majority of the canal buildings were atleast 2-3 stories and shouldnt be limited as that extra space would add dimension and density while making great apartments and offices.
Side note: now that we are seeing how powerful the Canal District can be...some thought needs to be put into rewatering the Ohio Basin and building our new Convention and Conference Center there which would act as the southern end of the Canal District.
I recognize this is a long term plan but the area surrounding the canal district is every bit as important as the canal distict itself....because the surrounding neighborhood is what would feed and complement it. Therefore, I implore you to take a few steps back and expand the boundaries of the plan from atleast the Erie Basin Marina to Michigan Street and Furhmann Blvd.
Report this
nyc
Do people really know what they sound like?
"You are all so misguided by your idealism." "...collective sickness of Buffalo" "i'll be dead before anything ever happens" "We may be dead before anything ever happens" "No one on this website will really live to to enjoy any of it."
There is nothing more depressing in Buffalo then hearing those phrases over and over again. Good progress has been made in the city in the past few years and considering what Buffalo has to climb out of, nothing is worse then the "curmudugeons" beating back optimism.
Report this
RonR
I understand that the General Mills plant provides jobs. Good paying jobs at that. They also have a lot of tradition in Buffalo.
However, my point is people are not going to want to live NEXT to the plant. The harbor plan above shows high and mid rise development. This means views will be sold. While some of the views will be amazing shots of Lake Erie and Downtown, others will look directly at this plant. It may smell nice but it does not look pretty.
Think outside of the box here folks. Some have posted that if the skyway comes down, the value of the land will increase. Provided there is not massive amounts of cleanup needed, I agree with this. So...
What if a package deal were made. What if General Mills was given a different plot of land directly on Lake Erie and not on the Buffalo river in exchange for their current lot. Maybe the Freezer Queen site. Moving GM off the river would also reduce the need for a lift bridge as they are really the only consistent site that has freight ships doc. We could offer some great tax rebates and development funds in the move as well.
This would allow GM to build a state of the art plant in Buffalo and could lead to the creation of more jobs then what currently exists today. Additional to this, the newly freed up land could be sold to developers to cover the cost and once developed, it would bring in a significant amount of taxes.
I know we can not turn our back on industry that is on the water but this does not mean we should not try and consolidate it. There are MASSIVE stretches of land that site between a few working sites. We need to try our best to consolidate these sites in a central area so the rest of the land can be reused.
Report this
eyepharded
RonR wrote: "However, my point is people are not going to want to live NEXT to the plant." I live in the elk Terminal which is about as close as any residential property is to the General Mills plant and the only effect the plant has me is the pleasent smell of Lucky Charms baking in the morning.It doesn't look any worse than any other building in the cobblestone district either. In fact it looks better than most. So I have to dissagree with you there. Moving that plant is logistically foolish if they are going to be forced to move what makes you think they will stay in buffalo?
Report this
42nate
Sure, just like no one wants to live next to vacant grain elevators and public housing complexes. Oh, wait a minute, they did--at the Elk Street Terminal. For market rate rents.
Report this
chrish
The vision above is entirely feasible with the infusion of state backing for demo of the Aud and the yearly 2.5 mil from the NYPA proceeds. Match those with federal grants and you have a formula for resurrecting the supportive infrastructure that can make private development happen.
Report this
RonR
Eyepharded,
Agree to disagree. Here is why. The Elk terminal is an awesome project but it is also very rare. If someone wants to live in the cobblestone district, today there are very few choices. I am not talking about today and the current stock. I am talking about 20 years from now.
I think everyone would agree that the "plan" is to have thousands of people move back into the city. Correct? For this plan to happen a lot has to be fixed. One of the main things that needs to be fixed is overcoming the lifestyle offered by the burbs. The main counter to this today is an urban lifestyle. A lifestyle that both you and I enjoy.
This lifestyle will be created in a dense population cluster and right now the best place for this to happen is where you life, the cobblestone district and in the future the harbor district. Right now the only development that is happening is conversion projects like the Elk Terminal. At some point, these properties are going to run out. It is at that point, developers will need to build from scratch. This is where the challenge lies.
Developers either build on large tracks of land or build mid to high ride towers. Since I hope that we would agree, suburban style plots of land and single family homes are not going to come to the cobblestone district, we will soon be left with the latter as an option for developers. Here in lies the problem.
In mid to high rise development, the developers make the majority of their profits on the upper floors. This is because not only do they provide the same amenities as the lower floors, they also provide a view. People pay for views when they live in these types of projects.
Fast forward 15 years. They skyway is down. YEA! A proper street gird has been placed on the harbor and land is cleared waiting for development. Who is going to build? That is the problem. A building has 4 sides. If a development over 4 stories has 50% of the property overlooking brownfields, do you really think a developer is going to take a chance and build? If you were a buyer, would you buy a condo with that view? The answer is no. I see it first hand.
I live in San Diego and in the East Village of downtown. A development project that is about 20 years ahead of the harbor/cobblestone district in Buffalo. Same challenges. Every plot within a 1/4 of a mile of an industrial site has not been touched, even with heavy incentives. The warehouses of yesterday sit idle today. Get outside of this radius and everything has been cleared and new development have been built.
I am not talking about today but 20-50 years from now. I am not talking about the conversion of an old warehouse. I am talking about mid to high rise development from scratch.
As for moving the plant:
1- With the right incentives it could offer GM an opportunity to build a much more productive plant which could lead to more jobs. 2- With the way things are going, where is the guarantee that GM will be in Buffalo in 20 years.
I am pretty sure that if Buffalo got a plan together to rework is port, there would be money for this. Similar to funds for the "Canal Plan" getting Federal dollars to consolidate our port, improve rail and ship channels and brownfield cleanup could be tied into one major project. Just think 50 years not 5 and you will see where I am coming from.
Report this
eyepharded
I wasn't refering to any particular time line. Just that fact the the general mills plant does not scare away residential development. I live about 400 yards from the plant, you're thousands of miles away. I just might have a little more direct insight on the subject. I'm not trying to sound condesending but its kind of like yelling at the tv telling the players how to play when you're not even there.
Report this
nyc
The GM plant does not seem to impinge on views except for the single tower and even then I think the upper floors with a view towards the plant have a spectacular vantage point all the way to the Boston Hills, to lake erie on the right and then overlooking the "brownfields" and the grain elevator canyon of the Buffalo RIver. I would love it and it would be a much more interesting view then the project I am currently working on in Providence RI - high end housing orientated to views of a refinery...
Report this
Justin_Azzarella
I'm sensing that today’s "wow" or "ewe" comments surrounding the General Mills plant may be a type of generational involuntary reaction.
Example: I remember taking a tour of the Ellicott Lofts before they were completed. Half of the people on the tour were 30 and younger and the other half were 40 and above. The 30 and younger crowd appreciated the modern amenities and historic authenticity of the neighborhood. The 40 and over crowd kept asking where they'd be able to put their china cabinets.
The point I'm trying to make is that a great number of my friends and I want to own a condo in the Cobblestone District. Yup, I said condo and own - and we want to own directly across from the General Mills plant. The Plant’s industrial character is the number one reason I’d invest in that part of Buffalo.
Imagine walking out of your condo and seeing an active grain elevator, cobblestone streets, a sporting arena, Erie Canal, a submarine, Erie Basin Marina, sail boats, and restaurants. Don’t forget you can also take the train a few blocks to the Downtown Farmer's market, Thursday at The Square, The Theatre District, Fountain Plaza, Chippewa, Allentown and more!
I understand that living in an industrial environment isn't for everyone – and that’s ok. Let’s keep our minds open and consider that “the neighborhood as industrial” may be exactly what others in Buffalo are looking for. I know I am.
Report this
RonR
Eyepharded,
As someone who works directly with developers in all parts of the US on marketing, I think I have more insight on the mindset of developers then you. Take no offense, but having the "Buffalo Perspective" is a bad thing. Your prospective, which I value, is of today and only based on Buffalo. In regards to development, this is not much. What I am talking about is 20 years from now. I have lived in areas where projects like these are in different stages and well beyond the planning stage that Buffalo currently sits in today.
I am speaking of mistakes that I have witnesses first hand in other developments and pointing out where the same circumstances exist in this development.
There is a reason why the 1st ward is a rotting neighborhood. There is a reason why the cobblestone district is a series of empty blocks. Yes your perspective comes from 400 yards away but you also have to recognize that you are an innovator. In terms of marketing and sales, you are in the top 10%. While the Elk Terminal is a smashing success, it is just one project. If there were 1000 units down there today, with industry mixed in as it stands, you would have a huge vacancy.
I have lived in several areas where neighborhoods change by simply crossing the street. How something like a bus garage or mid level industrial site can take down a 4 block radius. How these things were overlooked in the planning stage. Kinda like how NYC thinks people will enjoy the Boston Hills instead of an industrial plant at their feet.
Like I said before, I am not talking about the forward thinkers like yourself. I am talking about the masses. The masses are what makes large developments profitable. The masses is what the end game is all about. The masses are not able to overlook the things that people like you, the innovators, can.
The masses is what the burbs in WNY have catered to over the last 50 years. This is why everyone is leaving.
Report this
BuffaloCook
WOW!!! This looks great! Much better than anything I could have envisioned. I cannot wait.
Report this
eyepharded
I'm Not trying to sound like a prick. Just prove a point. I don't care about 50 years ago or 50 years from now. I care about right now and doing what I can to help the city that I live, work, and attend school in. I know that the cobblestone area is not for every one. But the Terminal is full and at a pretty penny for rent. Plus the Fair mont creamery direct next dor is being gutted for what is rumered to be a condo conversion by Ellicott development as we speak. Its just hard for me to listen to someone who has already left this city tell me I don't know whats going on in my back yard.
Report this
RonR
Justin,
Great job with forever elmwood!
You echo my point. Yes there are lots of people like you, but stats show that there are more who are not.
Report this
nyc
Any condo tower right now in the united states is not catering to the "masses" no matter where it is located. The "masses" want a single family suburban house in a low density neighborhood if the masses are living in the burbs. That will never be provided here. So, since we are obviously not catering to the "masses", we have to cater to another group and that paticular tower is the only building that would be significantly affected by the view of the plant - and the contrast of the plant with the hills, and the lake, and the river with lift bridges, is pretty cool.
Report this
SLEEPL8
The renderings remind me of The River Walk in San Antonio, TX. I would love to see Buffalo follow a model similar to that used in San Antonio. Ther river walk an incredible place to visit. It is lively, comfortable, and clean. Sadly though, these are simply more renderings. I have to agree with the sinical majority in that none of these glorious ideas will ever come to fruition. It is nice to dream while we live the Buffalo nightmare.
Report this
nyc
should we add the "buffalo nightmare" to the comment list of how everyone is going to be dead.
Report this
TownLine
If people really are worried that these will be just more renderings, then why don't you use your voice on this site and clearly state your support, so that, perhaps, someone in power will realize that these ideas would have great support and push them through to fruition. Ho hum attitudes don't do anything productive. Constructive criticism is always a good thing, but crappy attitudes are a waste.
Report this
RonR
You don't sound like that at all eye. I see your perspective but you seem to be blind to the other point of view. The challenge with Buffalo has been for the last 50 years all decisions were about now and not for the future. The skyway and 33 were built at a time when people were thinking about fixing traffic today. Not what effect it would have on the future.
The things that people are trying to correct TODAY are mistake from YESTERDAY. Doesn't it make sense to try and prevent the mistakes of TOMORROW?
Rome was not built in a day is always thrown around in conversations like this. But what I was told a long time ago was Rome was also not built for today. It was built for tomorrow.
I respect your opinion and desire to have things happen in a way that they only effect you, but that is not a community. In fact, it is that mindset that kills communities that exist or from ever happening.
While my address may be in San Diego, I left because of work. I own two homes in South Buffalo as rentals and will return when I do not need to work. Furthermore, I find it comical the attitude of people who live in Buffalo who say "Its just hard for me to listen to someone who has already left this city tell me I don't know whats going on in my back yard." I would hope that you see that the solution for Buffalo's future is a combined effort of those who stayed, those who left and want to come back and finally those who will come from other places. Also, someone who does not care about the past or future of Buffalo is more of a determent then some who lives 3000 miles away.
Report this
chrish
If I could, I'd live directly across the street from the General Mills plant - a fabulous modern building, designed after the Van Nelle factory in Rotterdam, with its horizontal bands of glowing glass block! It's in my top 10 best buildings in Buffalo.
The complex of grain elevators which General Mills still uses and were once part of the Washburn-Crosby Company, contains Buffalo's first concrete tile bin elevator, one which was prominently featured in Le Corbusier's landmark treatise on modern architecture, Towards a New Architecture of the mid-1920s. Who woudln't want to live near something like that?
"The American engineers overwhelm with their calculations our expiring architecture..."
Report this
chris69
I dont care if they are just renderings!!!!
These renderings are what we need to lobby the NYSDOT to get rid of the Rout5 expressay and skway
These renderings are what we need to lobby NYS for matching funds to rewater the canals
These renderings are what is needed to make sure the building parcels and streets are properly planned so that new construction fits in with the future of this area
These plans are needed because Bass Pro wants to build and we need to give them options! Creative options that are just as good if not better than if they were on the wharf.
So no there is nothing wasted! Now if we only had a regional leader to take on the NYSDOT! Forget higgins he has burned himself with the expansion of the peace bridge plaza.....for one.
Report this
RonR
ChrisH. You can have your wonderful view for less then 14k. Just move to the 1st ward. It is in the shadow of our wonderful industrial heritage and home to house values just a hair better then the east side.
Report this
Denizen
Finally.....a nice plan!! And one that is based off the skyway no longer existing. These renderings, sketches and the overall idea looks great.
Now...just if we could get this codified into an official master plan for Canal Side, potential tenants, big and small, will have an impressive framework to be within.
Report this
RPreskop
This is just another meaningless, pie-in-the-sky plan. There is not enough money in WNY to make this plan a reality. Until we change the way we deliver local government services and change the way Albany does business and make this Buffalo-WNY Region more competitive and attractive for new investment this plan will never be implemented. As for removing the Skyway, lets stop blaming that elevated highway bridge for Buffalo's urban problems and face the fact that many WNY suburban commuters prefer their limited access highways over at-grade boulevards that you guys want on the waterfront. Keep in mind that suburbanites are the majority of the region's population so removal of the skyway and other superhighways could easily spur fierce opposition. You cannot force this "new urbanism" down peoples throats, you have to slowly educate the people to the many possible benefits of the new urbanism. I personally have mixed emotions about removing the skyway. I do not feel that I have enough knowledge on this controversial subject to come out as either "for" or "against" removing the skyway and the NY Route 5 expressway.
Report this
nyc
I don't think there is too much opposition to removing the skyway. The town of Hamburg even endorsed it and they would be most affected... and nothing is being "shoved down people's throats" - that's a bit of a dramatic statement about a concept of how to redevelop an empty waterfront.
Report this
vgs
Ron R you will never convince anyone that General Milkls is a bad thing. The plant is what will attract people not deter them whether it is today or 50 years from now.
Report this
cdubmoo
People in the suburbs need to remember that their communities are affected by the development of a sustainable city core. The region lives and dies with downtown Buffalo.
Report this
RonR
Thanks for the advice vgs. I think Buffalo should keep doing the SAME THING OVER AND OVER AGAIN. That should bring different results........
I never said GM was bad. I was just stating my opinion on why things that people get all excited about will never happen. But hey, these are some really nice drawings...
Report this
PrincetonElms
RonR- One of my best friends did exactly that : bought a house in the First Ward, for less than $16K, and is the happiest guy I've ever met. He likes his neighbors and the area is quiet. I've pet-sat while he & his family were away, and I heard nothing but crickets and tree-frogs at night. Very nice. Next question???
Report this
tonyarmani
I think we should pick something and stick to it...whats the worst that can happen, we lose part of our population and the taxes go up?? what else is new
Report this
chris69
nyc, the opposition to removing the skyway doesnt come from those in Buffalo or WNY. We want it gone and we want our waterfront developed.
As with many things in Buffalo....its the albany political machine and its various agencies that is fighting us!
Report this
chris69
I have to say it again....you guys need to zoom out and incorporate the DL&W and the Naval Park.
Report this
gaustad
nyc - if you know so much, why don't you move home and show us on its done - ?
Even though, there has been some real estate development downtown, the fundamental problems in the local economy have actually become worse. More jobs and more people have left. Some of us beleive that brutal honesty may help motivate, instead of sweeping the problems under the rug becuase we have issued some nice renderings.
Report this
Auburner
Fall into the Gap?
Report this
NSphere
I like the plan. I like it a lot, but I have to say I'm skeptical even on just the basis of cost. I'd like to see how this plays out.
Can you please post where I can get/read a copy of the entire plan? Thanks
Report this
nyc
Who is sweeping problems under the rug? I am just saying this fatalistic attitude that pervades so many posters is not addressing any problems but rather resigning to the idea that nothing could ever come of anything. That's not very motivational.
The renderings show how addressing infrastructure problems such as the skyway and the removal of the aud could result in something great. Infrastructure is a major problem where it inhibits the development of lands that would naturally be attractive to a developer. Look at the Erie Basin Marina - they developed a master plan, they build roads, they provided lots and presto! You have development!! It didn't occur overnight but it did happen. That's what is needed in the inner harbor (and outer) and because retail will be a major component, the extra step of making lower Main Street that much more exciting by dredging additional waterways and building bridges, would be a catalyst for the creation of a themed retail and entertainment destination. I think it would have the potential to tap into touristes from Niagara Falls and shoppers coming down from Toronto.
It's about what is the best we can make of our waterfront and using that as a departure point. Now we need some local leadership...
Report this
Denizen
Planning is good. It's much better than doing nothing but whining about problems that won't go away any time soon.
Typical Buffalo fatalist: "The East Side sucks, City Hall is corrupt, and our taxes are too high, therefore no one should give a shit about improving things like the waterfront and downtown."
Report this
RaChaCha
Dan: an interesting piece of work. If you're not already aware, there's a group in Rochester that has been developing like-minded plans to restore abandoned sections of canal in Rochester's downtown. Prior to WWI, the Erie Canal ran through downtown Rochester, but then was rerouted south of the City. The old canal route downtown was later replaced by (believe it or not) a subway, and, later, streets. Like your idea, the vision plan of the group in Rochester includes boat basins and canalside development. If you're interested in more information or comparing notes with the Rochester group, send a note to my BRO login, and I'll hook you up!
Report this
chrish
RonR, the Old First Ward is where I grew up and where my family history originates. So I would know it's a great neighborhood and understand how interesting these views are. Thanks for the reminder.
Report this
DanLeonard
Thanks for everyone's comments. The designs and renderings that you see here are a small, but extremely imporant, piece of what is becoming a much larger plan, incorporating the Outer Harbor, Erie Basin Marina and cobblestone properties to the southeast. We are also examining the major connections to those areas as well as to the rest of downtown. We felt it was appropriate to focus just on this area in this article because it is the major issue at hand, considering the recent changes with Bass Pro as well as the fact that the 2004 plan is really only months away from being completed. Its time to take a serious look at what is the next logical step for development, and how we can best leverage our resources.
Thus far, between this post and informal presentations to various local leaders and community groups, there has been a lot of enthusiasm. This is not a pie-in-the-sky pipe dream - it has been done specifically in consideration of the resources that there may actually be available. The designer, and actual talent here, Greg Leonard (yes, we are related) has a great deal of experience with these types of projects. He's a Cornell and Harvard graduate and has worked with several internationally prominent Landscape Architecture and Design firms. He has been involved in what has been done elsewhere and understands how to do this type of project right.
Currently, the plan is not readily available to the public. However, in the near future, we are looking to create an online resource for hosting it and encouraging the exploration of creative, yet realistic, ideas for development.
Report this
RonR
ChrisH there was no intended slam on the 1st ward. Most of my family is from South Buffalo and I would bet we are somehow second or third cousins...If you are Irish.
My point was the 1st wards PROPERTY VALUES are low because of the industry that surrounds it. No comment as to the people, crime or noise. Just property values.
Now people can say how great the views are but when house values are below 50K for a 3 bed 2 bath, not that many people would agree with the "view" or the how would be worth more.
Report this
Prodigal-Son
Dan and Greg Leonard,
I share everyone's mix of enthusiasm and cynicism. There are so many wonderful plans on paper that are easy to get excited about. There are also a hundred times as many interesting plans sitting in the dumpster because of the challenges of implenting a vision in Buffalo. Is this plan different from any of the other plans offered by the Erie Canal Development Corp, or any other group pitching an idea? No offense to any particular planner, but any of the 12 plans I've seen would be better than what exists now. When do we start digging?
Report this
DanLeonard
Prodigal-Son - The fact is that we are already digging! the 2004 plan, which is the right plan in my opinion is already being implemented. Drive down to the inner harbor and you'll see for yourself. The Canal is watered, buildings have been constructed (though just the museum to this point), stone is being laid, and the streets are being rebuilt. Soon we'll have an inner harbor site that is viable for private development.
This plan is the next step. It takes into account what will have been accomplished in the 2004 plan and expands upon it. Thats part of what makes it viable - it was designed in context with what is already there and what is already under construction. Once the 2004 plan is done, that doesn't mean we're done developing the waterfront. While that plan is under construction, right now is the time to plan for the next phase, so that we are ready to go when the opportunity comes.
Report this
WholeLottaJibbaJabbah
I know Buffalo doesn't seem to have many jobs, but I must say there seems to be a market for Infrastructure/Urban Renderer.
Since the last time they came out with new plans I had said, make it like Baltimore Harbour!!!...these Rendering look more and more like it! I love it, now lets do it! Is there any way i can help?!?!?
Report this
SLEEPL8
JibbahJabbah....You can help by running for office. Winning. Attaining millions in funding. Then spending it on this project while ignoring the constant opposition. Oh and hire some good lawyers because you will definitely get sued by all the shit bags that don't agree with your brilliant vision. Best Wishes.
Report this
SLEEPL8
PS...
Can we drop the "C" from Canaltown? Way funnier. Everyone would visit Analtown.