Buffalo Rising Online

Looks better than what is there now. I drove past the Salamanca Casino on 86 and I was honestly impressed with its appearance. If the Senecas build a structure similar to Salamanca and can sucessfully do business in Buffalo I am all for it. I am not a supporter of the Seneca Nation in most cases but in this case I feel that the casino will have a positive impact on down town Buffalo. I invite those of you who oppose the casino to call me an idiot and tell me why I am wrong. Do those of you who oppose it do so because you don't approve of gambling or because you don't approve of the Senecas business practices?....or both?

Im not sure if I should be happy or terrified. 1) What is this going to do to Buffalos existing hotels? Will it put them out of business or will they compete fairly and allow bigger events to be brought to Buffalo?

2) Will the Senecas pay the Bed Tax to support Convention and Tourism marketing and advertising?

3) What does this do to our plans for a new 400,000 sqft Convention and Conference Center? Will this hotel have banquet and conference rooms that compete with the convention center?

4) Will they have a restaurant and entertainment? What will that do to our theater and restaurant district?

5) What will happen to Chippewa Street? Will the bars start to migrate down to the Cobblestone District? I think so?

6) What happens to the Hyatt? Will part of it be converted to office space? Will they tear down the atrium and reopen Geneseee Street?

7) What happens to planned hotel rooms at the Dulski and Statler and City Tower?

8) What happens to the hotel that was to be part of Bass Pro?

We keep saying that we cannot attract large events in Buffalo because we do not have the maximum hotel space but now that we are getting the hotel room capacity, what will that do to our existing and planned hotel space?

One thing is for sure....it raises ALOT of questions...and since the Senecas dont pay taxes, I dont like the idea of jeopardizing our tax paying industries.

WE CAN SAY FOR SURE THAT THIS CERTAINLY DOES PUT THE NEW CONVENTION AND CONFERENCE CENTER FRONT AND CENTER ON NEW DEVELOPMENT.....AND IT HURTS THE HYATT AND ADAMS MARK THE MOST.

IF THE HYATT WERE SMART THEY WOULD RETHINK THEIR BUSINESS PLAN FOR LOSING THE CONVENTION CENTER....AND FOLLOW THE STATLER AND DULSKI INTO A MIXED USE BUILDING.

The invesment is great as is a shiney new high rise on the surface. But now we have an untaxed hotel on the property too.

Pataki's original compact should have accounted for all this. Letting the Seneca's build what ever they want for only a small take of slot revenue is a mistake. The hotel should be paying the same bed and property taxes or payment in lieu of etc as any other hotel as should be the case for anything else not part of the gaming floor.

And then to have the state keep most of what is gained is even a bigger slap.

To play fair any bar, concert, restuarant, hotel venue should be able to operate with only giving the state some slot revenue. We'd pry see a lot more developments like this. Which casino operator wouldn't jump at that chance? Oh yeah, we can't get the votes to change the state constitution to allow gambling. So we have to give away land to sovergn nation monopolies to work around it.

Can I apply for my own nation?

ps DONT THE SENECAS KNOW HOW TO BUILD A HOTEL THAT ISNT A BIG RECTANGULAR BOX?

ps.....it looks kinda....well 1970s Planet of the Apes.....Buffalonians can just call it ape city. hahahaaha

Now its up to the state delegation to get the city all 25% percent of the slot machine revenue.

What happened to the Seneca Gaming Headquarters that was in the original plans ? That would have brought a lot of high paying jobs to the city as well as more people wanting to live downtown? Was there no room on the site? Will they still move the Headquarters downtown?

Its always telling when you have a $300million development and they don't even bother to name the architects. This building is atrocious. Alone on its own island, rejecting the urban nature of everything around it. The metallic facade, boy they just took the worst part of the Burchfield penny design and put it on an even more rediculous facade. It is concerning when they just show one angle - you assume this is the best they got, can't wait to see the rest. Remember that the back of this P.O.S. is going to be facing the Buffalo river - that bodes well for future riverfront development down the road.

This is going to be a 100% self contained development, there will be no spin-off, its just not the nature of a casino. Anyone who stays in that hotel will do so for the casino only. Usually, with this type of development, we can at least say, well, it adds to the tax base. Not here. Go up to the Seneca Niagara Casino, which as been tremendously expensive, and tell me how much spin-off that has created.

Shiny new buildings are not what revitalizes cities, downtowns, and neighborhoods. This project is nothing more than that.

And a giant video screen on at the peak to top it off. Welcome to Vegas, baby!

There is an ugly blue steel building that reeks like cigarettes from 50 feet away there now. Before that it was an abandonded grain tower and warehouse. If this casino dosen't go up what will? Complain about the architecture all you want, it takes an eclectic mix to make a city look vibrant. With the redevelopment of the Fairmont Creamery happening now too this should breathe some life into a long dying area. This also sets up a great area for infill development ( W. J. Morriseys) between the HSBC arena and the new casino. If anyone needs to be concerned about this I do. I live across the street.

I was going to comment but I rather just refer you to Townline's.

This design looks no better than the industrial wasteland that was there before. It's a cluttered mess! When I looked at the design I thought it was a construction site.

They're not paying taxes...which is tough to swallow. Some people will stupidly gamble away their family's inheritance. Buffalo bars may see a few less patrons.

Beyond that...I don't see any devastating consequences. For locals that will irresponsibly gamble here...more than likely they already are making poor decisions just down the road in the Falls, or through the lotto, or some other means. Sure this makes it easier...but it doesn't create the problem. They're adults after all...not children. How is that different than leasing a car you can't afford, taking out loans you can't pay back, or enjoying a lifestyle on bad credit?

The bottom line is that a 1/3 of a billion dollars is being invested on brown fields in the shadow of the Perry Projects...in an area that would never see anything development remotely close to this without public money, tax credits and shady dealing. I love that condos/apartments are being built in the cobblestone district...but those are mere specs on wasteland.

This massive investment costs taxpayers nothing...no silver bullet public money as with Bass Pro. Sure we're paying for it through blackjack, slots, etc...but at least we get something back. A small percentage of revenue for the City of Buffalo. A ton of respectable jobs with good wages that will be re-circled throughout the community. Employment opportunities for many inner-city residents that can't drive out to the office parks of Amherst. Business for vendors supplying the casino's needs. A potential magnet to draw visitors who may then spend money elsewhere in Buffalo. Construction jobs. A new luxury hotel.

Inevitably there will be plenty of opposition on this site and people pointing to studies, history, statistics that prove this is bad. My response is that you find studies and statistics to make anything look bad. The casino offers Buffalo SOMETHING to work with in an area of town that has not been useful since the grain elevators all but disappeared and manufacturing jobs left town. This project isn't in the downtown core. Its not overshadowing Buffalo rich heritage, architecture and arts. Its merely another mode of entertainment for those who voluntarily seek it. People won't forfeit their Shea's season tickets or cancel their tour of the Darwin Martin house to play blackjack.

Its something where there was nothing. Its a giant development project that will hire Buffalonians to build it, supply it and work for it.

One word ....WOW ! A new business in Buffalo. With new jobs for the city that is 2nd most on the poverty level! Chris 69...What 400,000 sq ft convention center ? Please give us a link to that !

The Hyatt is an faded, aging hotel...it's probably the worst "hyatt" branded hotel in the world...I was shocked by its shabbiness the last time I was there. While I am completely uninterested in gambling in Buffalo, a new, high-end hotel is a necessity

While it's not a panacea, it seems like this investment, along with the other's we've been reading about recently, bodes well for Buffalo's future. I can understand those that don't hold gambling in high regard, but the simple truth is that it's everywhere. From the corner gas station with a hundred different ways to play the lottery, or online, or a short drive across the border, gambling is with us. Rather than fight a battle that appears more appropriate for the 1990's, let's focus on more productive issues. With the increasing value of the 'loonie', some high dollar gamblers will cross the bridge to get a bigger bang for their gambling dollar (assuming the trend of the last four years continues) and assuredly spend some money at other businesses, that otherwise, they'd never have reason to visit.

I agree with eyepharded and have said it in previous posts. It takes an eclectic mix to make a vibrant downtown core. Steel and glass mixed among mortar and brick. Too much over either one makes for a bland downtown environment.

I was initially significantly against the casino, because 1) the city would lose taxes, 2) people would spend their money at the casino and not at other local events and 3) all the profits would leave Buffalo for the reservation.

But, the more I think about it, the better this looks. 1) The city may lose traditional taxes, but with a share of the winnings, and no public subsidies, this project creates more income than most. Any industry we draw here we give massive tax breaks to anyway, and this creates jobs for 1000 tax paying citizens with no public funding. 2) The people going to the casino are not the type of people that choose between dinner and shopping on Elmwood or the casino. Its people like my Grandma, who chose between Canadian casinos, Bingo in Cheektowaga, or the casino. In that choice, I saw bring them donwtown. Or even better, with a hotel attached, its people from outside Buffalo who come to stay overnight. That's a net plus all around, whether they spend at the casino or somewhere else. And 3) with so few business being based here, profits always leave Buffalo for the rest of the country. We are no more retaining the profits from Bass Pro (or the Bills, for that matter) than we are from the casino. Profits leave unless the company is based in the city. And no one else in the city wants to spend $300 million in a derelict part of town and employ 1000 people.

Finally, if we want to see the effects of a casino on a Great Lakes downtown, look at Detriot and Milwaukee. Both have been net positives for both cities. No one project (Bass Pro, casino, Buffalo Tower, Erie Basin marina) is a silver bullet, so stop using that as a standard. Accept incremental benefits from all the projects, and the city overall is headed in the right direction.

Granted, I did like the old design better, but I suspect this one will undergo a little bit of tweaking before being constructed. I would also like to express a few thoughts. 1) Casino gaming is not the anti-Christ. 2) Is it not true that this anti-casino group is only about a dozen people (who think they know what is better for you, than you do)? 3) ANY revenue gathered from the Seneca nation for this parcel is about (I may be a little off in my figures) 100% more than what that parcel was generating. 4) The casino hotel will most likely take 100% of the patrons….who want to stay there. [Side note: there are no guarantees in business, if you want to compete then provide a competitive product / service] 5) let’s remember that the casino is not the silver bullet, it is a piece of the puzzle. Don’t expect the casino to BE the attraction, let’s keep developing around it and make BUFFALO the attraction. 6) Don’t forget, this has the potential to be the largest private development in Buffalo’s history, and may well result in a couple thousand jobs…gosh, that WOULD be awful. 7) Cities that compete in the arena that we aspire to have more than one convention location, they have several hotels, they have more than one or two blocks dedicated to entertainment. We love talking like we want to play in the big league, so lets stop F^({ing around and get in the game. 7A) Competition is good for industries such as these; it forces them to provide a better product / value to the consumer. [more to follow]

I have a lot of mixed feelings on this project, leaning a little towards being against it. However, for those that keep saying that this doesn't add to the tax base, that is not entirely true. The city stands to gain $6-7 million per year in slot revenue -- Much more than any taxable project would bring in, especially considering the area.

there is another big if that comes to mind now....if the Senecas have roughly 30 story hotels and casinos in Buffalo and Niagara Falls, then can we count on the Senecas to demand a light rail connection to connect the Buffalo Niagara International Airport, Tonawanda, Niagara Falls Airport and downtown Niagara Falls.

I those destinations get connected then that would have a HUGE economic impact for our region.

PS for those asking what 400,000 sqft convention and conference center. I cant give you a link. The CVB is concerned that talk of a new convention and conference center would cause cancellations or would detract from attracting events to the current convention center but I can tell you three things: 1) the preferred size is roughly 400,000 sqft (350,000 to 450,000 range) 2) the preferred location is the cobblestone district (Im hoping the Ohio Basin) and that would need a light rail extension. 3) the CVB knows any downtown location would require closing off more streets from the grid and would lead to significant opposition, especially from those that want more streets reopened not more streets closed. 3) there are talks with the current county executive (and the candidates), the mayor and the state for funds.

The casino sits next to the cobblestone district yet has no pedestrian access or connectivity to it. Why not?

This is the same problem that is created in Niagara Falls. The build-out of the entire master plan in Niagara Falls is entirely inward focused and will never generate one off site project (how long has it been around now and there is NO spin-off development).

I guess that's just how casoinos work... don't expect this to generate any new development.

I was completely against this until I went to the falls view casino in NF, ONT. While there all I saw was people carrying wads of American money. At least if this is built it will draw people to Buffalo with there money instead of them going over the border. People who want to are going to gambel if there is a casino in Buffalo or not so why not capitalize on it. Also my friend is a chef at the casino in NF, NY. He just graduated with an associates in culinary from NCCC, he is on salary and makes $38K a year with full health benefits and he is only 20. There are many more like him there, this will bring tons of jobs. The Senecas treat their employees very well.

Has anyone been to Foxwoods in Connecticut? I am shocked by this design. It has nothing urban about it. It belongs, like Foxwoods, out in the middle of nowhere. The waterfall, rock and tree motif has nothing to due with Buffalo. It doesn't even simulate the landscape pre-europeanization. The hotel looks like a cigarette carton which I suppose is, in fact, significant. Please please dear god I hope they reconsider and come up with something less "wilderness simulation" and more urban or reflective of the city's place on the Great Lakes Plain. Of course it is a done deal and will be another could have been great... if only... addition to Buffalo's growing list of worthless buildings like the convention center and that courthouse without windows. For 1/3 of a billion dollars this could be a true showcase. I seem to recall an earlier conceptual plan that was much much better. This is probably the Seneca's way of getting back at all who oppose them....

At one point didn't they talk about the landscape being something of a neighborhood park.. where did that idea go? It could be a great park if they designed it as such but they would have to make the edge a bit more urban and not just a huge drop off.

It kinda looks like the front entrance had too many free drinks and threw upon the cobblestone district...

I hope those are real 30 ton boulders out front. That's be great!!

It's sad that people have to have bumper stickers on their cars that say "Just Build It" with a picture of a bridge. It's because we have a city filled with morons who fight any type of change in Buffalo that are bringing this city down.

Here you got people who are trying to stop a 1/3 billion dollar project from happening in a delapatated area of Buffalo where the only other good idea for the space is a Bass Pro?! What, that stopping gambling in Erie county is going to deter people from gambling when they can just drive 5 miles over the border and gamble over there and have their money pumped into the Canadian economy instead of ours?

Use the damn casino as an anchor (HSBC Arena is NOT an anchor because they have nothing going on in the building 75%-80% of the time). Divert traffic to the Casio to pass through main street or some other section of town and build up stores and restaurants there. Force the Indian casino to purchase building supplies and hire construction workers from the Erie county region. The casino will probably employ 2-3000 people who will then spend their money in the Erie county region.

Look at how many people go to the Niagara Casino on the American side. Niagara county does NOTHING to promote local business or help develop new business surrounding the area, but they blame the Casino for draining its resources. They're idiots who are squandering the best thing that has ever happened to the city of Niagara.

The compaints from the Buffalo Niagara partnership says that business downtown are concerned about "traffic flow and parking". If you were a business wouldn't you want traffic flow to go by your place? Jesus Christ downtown is 60% parking lots I don't think we're gonna run out. Plus the Casino will have its own parking so anyone parking in the downtown area is there to look around and shop which is a GOOD thing.

Since the Casino is on an island of Indian territory, if they try to screw with efforts to build up the area by undercutting the competition, then put up toll booths on all roads in and out of the Casino. It won't be necessary as it would be in the interest of the Senacas to help revitalize the area to bring more people into the area.

People need to stop bitching and just build it!

it looks like a pack of cigarettes, But i don't doubt that they are going to provide a real attraction for the area. The hotel could be a different shape, picture a feather with its top and bottom cut off, or it could be a cylinder. However this shape does have an imposing enough presence and width, so perhaps the rendering is not doing the development justice. They are really giving the cobblestone an identity and im glad that its a full investment. now we will be able to question the points in and around the Seneca casino.

I think the hotel is a good addition because at least it will draw people from outside Buffalo, most of the people staying at this property probably will not be locals, that's probably good. Yes it is not the most inspired hotel design ever, but it's not a derilict industrial site either, also was it earlier on this website that I herd that the metro rail was goint to be extended in a loop track to this site or am I dreaming??

The overall design of the Casino looks odd and out of place. The tower isn't too bad, but the casino and parking ramp look worse.

I'm shocked that this is mostly positive comments. Regardless we have so many proposals right now; it’s very exciting.

This thing is a big ass fort. You park your car in the ramp, go in notice nothing going on outside, then notice how late it got, then go back to your car and home. Oh, and you get to look at it when you drive by on the 190. Who will go to a bar across the street with free drinks in the casino and free parking in their ramp? Who will eat in a restaurant across the street when cheap ass gambling subsidized food is across the street?

Tell me where the spin off comes in? Show me the spin off in the falls? Show me the spin off in Detroit? Main Place mall and convention center pry got the same, "but its a big investment after nothing happening, how can you people complain? Is the Milwaukee one Indian? How is it set up and integrated? How much does the city get?

Everybody loves to point to the Canadian side.....guess who gets all the money there? Ontario does since the gov't owns the casinos. Here we give it away to a sovereign nation and say thank you for chump change of the profits of one type of game while they build what ever they want. The compact should have been a cut of total profits of the entire complex. But no, we get 25% of only the slots. I wish they would decide to not offer slots at all and really stick it to all the people drooling over this mirage.

Satan (not the former Sabre) could drop $300mil here today and we would pry all drop our drawers for him no questions asked.

Well.. hey wait a minute.. this looks familar?? Where have i seen this design before?? Hrmm.. lol.

Well... I dont' like the fact taht they don't pay bed taxes.. but wasn't an agreement inked not to long ago that called for the Senecas to promote the casino and the city... paying for everything. ( Totaling double the convention and visitors bureau budget?) Did i miss something or is that off the books??

A large scale upper end hotel is needed in Buffalo... its an absolute embarassment that the dumpy ass Hyatt and Adam's Mark are THE MAJOR HOTELS OF BUFFALO. I concur with the mixed use option.. I'd like to see the Hyatt go 50% residental.

Lots of points about the casino in NF... its designed as a typical casino.. keep people in.. then send em out.. if this were to happen in Buffalo..they would have to eliminate the isolation of the gaming floor and its patrons.. I'd like to see restaurants and retail street side.. a massive amount of entrances. which is essential if its going to be marketed as a destination. ( which has some high high probability.. basspro, waterfront, hsbc, etc.weather museum. etc )

I don't think we've got to worry about losing partons and businesses large scale in the rest of downtown.... thats competition.. Chippewa is going nowhere, its here to stay kids!! Restaurants will close, others will open. 95% fail in their first year.. thats a secondary. If anything theres more possiblity here to create jobs and a desination then anywhere else downtown!! How can you ignore $333 million dollars.. thats friggen insane.

and please please please.... for the sake of humanity... change the name.. realize the stigma thats attached with the fact that its an INDIAN CASINO..can we get something in the realm of "foxwoods"... and not Seneca Niagara.. I for one and many others agree that Indian casinos are trashy.... this building needs to have a trendy name.. nobody cares about Indian Heritage when they're gambling.. they do care about the reflection it has on the city when you've got a skyscraper with a 40 foot neon feather on it.

It looks bad.. can we get a place with a little Las Vegas SAnds Flare.. and not something taht looks like it belongs in Alleghany county.. or in the middle of the woods ( Foxwoods) either!!

the hotel looks a lot more elegant with a detailed image(buffalonews) and if you can get around the poor rendering, it seems like the right statement. I also really like the massive front walls and energetic awning. They find an exotic way to convert the exterior of the parking garage with the casino, however something is really missing from the connection between casino and hotel, maybe like an atrium ceiling or some kind of deck. The buffalo creek is providing a distinct environment for the cobblestone district, hopefully they still have love for the plan to bring the outdoors inside, a true gift during the winter. I like how they use the parking garage as a barrier, and place the hotel on the most important angle of the original plan. Driving in from the 190 this tower will certainly grab a lot of attention.

It’s a more passionate attempt to bring a practical casino to buffalo and will help characterize the cobblestone. I am amazed that the Senecas came forth with a bigger and brighter effort. It is what we need them to do! Hopefully they include some historical elements, for older kids like me; these become more interesting then the Disney logo.

Does anyone have an idea where the road on the lower right hand side goes? (To a new metrorail station)?

The Buffalo Rising bias is obvious by the lack of information, the choice of the worst possible rendering, and the quotes from the CACGEC. It is good to see the commentators rounding out the perspective in the comments.

I have been to the Seneca Niagara casino a number of times in the past few months. I have booked more than 2 dozen rooms in Niagara Falls instead of Buffalo (I can't stand the overpriced Hyatt) and have taken a number of people to shows and events there as well. All said and done they have received well over $20,000 of my money in the past six months, probably more when you add the money spent by guests and visitors.

The casino is playing on the same level but a different playing field than other developers. We celebrate development that receives grants from foundations, tax incentives from the local, state, and federal government, or breaks on operating expenses and taxes (take a look at the Waterfront tower as an example).

The Senecas are running sound businesses in areas that have thirsted for economic development. They are good business men who are looking out for their investors, and they have produced a significant return for these investors because they are enabled to run a business that the state refuses to allow for the rest of NY. This is not a problem with the Senecas, this is a problem with the State of NY.

If you are worried about the "Social costs" as Comptart stated, then we better start closing all the bars and liquor stores, repealing the state lotteries, off-track betting, bingo, and football pools, and banning all tobacco products. After all, if the State is going to protect us from ourselves, they might as well do it universally and across the board. Alcohol and cigarettes have far more significant social costs than gambling, and the lotteries take millions of dollars out of New Yorkers pockets every day; yet we see no evil with them. I guess it only takes a dollar and a dream, as long as you spend that dollar at a local convenience store or bar instead of the casino.

I just wished they had finished the design before they created the renderings.

Citizens Against Casino Gambling in Erie County (CACGEG) can go F*** themselves. It is my money, and they cannot tell me what to do with it. Is the Citizens Against Casino Gambling in Erie County (CACGEG) going to invest $333 million in Buffalo?

How come they don't boycott or sue church picnics? It is because they are cowardly hypocrites.

its too bad this was not closer to the hsbc and its almost the cost of issa's tower. sweet

me thinks someone was watching to many reruns of Planet of the Apes...it looks like APE CITY

Is that Cornelius.....over by the leafless trees...and boulders LOL

Will they provide sidewalks from the street to the front door or is this only a drive-in, drive-out casino? So much for connecting to the existing downtown. Pathetic.

The tower looks like the Gates Circle Condo, or is it the other way around?