Buffalo Rising Online

I love the Washington Market, and hope that it continues on as successfully (and as beautifully) as it has been under Sarah's management.

The Washington Market rocks! Any urban area would be proud - and fortunate - to have something like it. I wish we did here in My Fair City. Best of all, it really makes that great developing district between the Market Arcade and the Oak Elm corridor come alive - I made sure to take my Downtown Development tour group over there during Old Home Week. Added to Rocco's loft developments, church, post office, theaters, flower shop, art galleries, and nearby Metro Rail, Old Editions, central library, etc. it's a gem of a downtown neighborhood. But - as pointed out frequently on BRO - it would benefit tremendously from a rethinking of the fenced parking lot at the center of it all, where the original Washington/Chippewa Market was. It would seem that redevelopment of that lot into some kind of outdoor market venue or events space, as has been discussed, would help draw people from outside the immediate area - the increased exposure and customer base would only help the viability of the Washington Market.

Maybe it had something to do with this, related article?

http://www.buffalorising.com/story/a_huge_bid

A mini urban wegman's or a Dashes would be great.

While we'd all like to see this business flourish, it seems caught between a convenience store, and a gourmet shop, and there may not be enough traffic in that area to support either. I've had good experiences when visiting, but unfortunately haven't seen many other patrons. Anyone who's owned a business can do the math. Let's hope it can make it to the point where traffic in the area picks up. This business is as close to a Wegman's (in operation) as it is a carwash (different square footage, margins, products, etc.). Let's hope they can work things out.

just go there for lunch and you won't find an open seat most of the time. They really have quite the draw and probably one of the saving graces for the business. My only issue is that becuase of the size you don't know if they are going ot have a certain product or not. I am not worried about brand either but it is a tough sell to go there for some stuff when you still have to go someplace else for the rest of it. Potatoes, aluminum foil, things like this make it a tough place to shop at. But at the same time I do a lot of shopping there for what I can but with issues like that it is tough to convince other people to go.

Get people to go to lunch, easy.. everyone simply loves their food and their catering has a huge reputation, just needs a little more room to expand its grocery selection and I think it could really be a draw. Maybe they can take over the old Buffalo Reuse building and add some square footage to the back of the building, maybe even add a small curbside fruit stand to entice people in for groceries.

I also wish we could untangle this upscale (expensive) and quality... I got to Guercios because you can't beat the price anywhere and the quality of the produce is impeccable. No where do they try to be gourmet about it. I think the washington market should come down from its horse a little and be the Guercios for Allentown, downtown and the east side. Good quality products at a good price at a great location. You would win every time!

Guercios can offer value to it's retail customers in large part because of the significant wholesale business they do. For every dollar of sales at Washington Market, Guercios (retail and wholesale) probably does 50. The cost per square foot on Grant is also significantly less than this renovated property.

Yeah but at the same time guercio's doesn't have a lunch crowd, I bet they pull in a pretty penny there. I do agree that the rent difference is probably has a huge impact but at the same time from their adds they want to almost exclude people from being able to do day to day shopping their. I don't mind paying a little extra for the convenience of it and a downtown location, I just don't want to pay for their ego's. I think the place has huge potential and with every housing project coming to completion more and more by the month. They just need to be seen as a place anyone in jeans and sneakers can go to and not a suit and tie establishment. But I mean if they want to push that and try, good luck, but take note what happened to Tailors with that attitude.

viking - One of the reasons why I've probably never shopped thre is becuase of the lack of dedicated parking. I was going to mention something like that, but I figured someone would post this definency. If the Washington Market had a parking lot or dedicated parking in one of the million parking lots in the City, without charge, or validated parking, I possibly might make my way downtown to check it out.

Please please let M&T sell that parking lot (or better yet partner with a developer) so it can get filled in with some cool residential/commercial development with underground and ramp parking. If that happened Washington Market would have a great customer base and could reserve some parking for shoppers. It is way too soon to entertain even a small full line grocery store for this neighborhood so don't get your hopes up for even a mini-Wegmans anytime soon. Retail wisdom holds that a grocery store needs a dedicated neighborhood shopping population of 5,000- 9,000 residents to be commercially viable. Downtown St. Louis just hit that number of residents and bam, a 22,000 sf Schnucks (the local Tops) opening this spring on the ground floor retail level of a new parking garage.

Something like this maybe? http://www.2ndstreetdistrict.com/. If you look at the page notice the comments about pedestrians, how the buildings occupy the whole block and yet there are 1,500 centrally located garage parking spaces. Even if this project would be too ambitious by two times for Buffalo it is still a great template for an integrated live/work/play neighborhood that would link downtown better with the growing loft and medical corridors.

ok maybe in some situations around Elmwood or other areas of downtown parking can be brought up as an issue but really here.. I have never ever ever seen Ellicott street full. Every time I am with someone driving to the market we parking right in front of the place. Ellicott street has tons of on street parking near this business. Why because there is nothing around if but MORE parking lots therefore little to no demand for the on street stuff. Also there is that little street next to the church.. always empty spots.

Come on people 50% of downtown is already parking but it is never enough.

Yeah Washington Market is OK, but it doesn't seem to be able to make up its mind if it is a restaurant or a food shop and it is too damn small to be both. I hear they have great lunches, but have you ever tried to go grocery shopping there? You can't really even buy a whole meal! I remember when they 1st opened I was VERY excited only having been in the city for a short time my self, I couldn't wait for what was billed as "an upscale grocery store". the 1st time I walked in I was completely disappointed. I waited a while and came back hoping that they had added more selection, but they hadn't. They still really don't have enough to really shop. You still have to go to Wegmans or the Coop or somewhere!

Just my $0.02

it's not built close enough to the sidewalk......(ah!! that felt good)

Icecream - now you are getting the hang of it!! welcome to earth

PS -

NO WAY this store is worth 275k! Maybe 25k on a good day

The Washington Market is most convenient for those living downtown, since they can walk to get some groceries. But, for us folk that live in other parts of the City and need to carry more than 2 or 3 bags there is a inconvenience factor. I've always wanted to check the store out but, I really hate to pay for parking (I'm frugal, I know, but for legit reasons). That is my two cents!

Like he even has that much! LOL BTD- you're a riot!

platt4 -

You criticize negativity, attacks, and name calling, but you are the worst culprit.

I was merely stating a fact that this place is worth no where near 275k.

You're disrupting the flow of this forum and I would greatly appreciate it if you would keep your negative comments to yourself.

Thank you

The store being sold for $275K is really not that much considering how much real estate is in other part of the Nation. I'm sure that this store would sell for close to a million in other cities. I've never looked into small business loans but I'm sure that this is an absolutely doable venture for the next owner.

From other posts it appears that their staff is not very helpful - fire them - get new staff. That's the way the ball bounces. I hate to be up front but that is how it is.

RonR - I suggest choosing a more realistic benchmark for when you will think downtown residential is turning the corner.

...Wegmans would be a great fit for this site. They are a semi local company and treat workers right. Maybe a Wegmans on the go or a mini Wegmans. ... For me, the day Wegmans goes downtown is the day I see downtown as really turning the corner to a true residential center.

Wegmans doesn't seem interested of late in expanding at all in the Buffalo area. In fact, they closed an under-performing store a couple years ago in Cheektowaga. They are not semi-local, whatever that means. They are regional, and are opening new stores (all of which are big) in places where they can earn a lot more profit than downtown Buffalo. Check their web site for details. Putting a small store in downtown Buffalo would be far outside their strategy in multiple ways: a geography they're not expanding in (Buffalo area), very weak demographics (density and income), and a store size much smaller than their business model. And I won't even say anything about parking.

...$275K is really not that much considering how much real estate is in other part of the Nation. I'm sure that this store would sell for close to a million in other cities.

Joshua - I really think it's irrelevant what it would sell for in "other cities". Prices in each area are judged in their own context. If the store was in some economically healthier city, then you're correct the price would be a lot higher. But if it was in some other city very similar to here then the price wouldn't be much higher. And there's some other cities the price would be even lower.

Is nonono correct? The rumors that I heard agree with him/her. I also heard (and I am not trying spread rumors) that Billy Huge funded this project for his girl and now they have parted ways so he is unloading it.

$275K SEEMS LIKE A HUGE DEAL TO ME BUFFALO!

AtwaterLouse....still, I don't think that $275K is a lot for a storefront, even in Buffalo. Comparing prices on the dollar is a good indication of how inexpensive prices are in this area.

AtwaterLouse....still, I don't think that $275K is a lot for a storefront, even in Buffalo. Comparing prices on the dollar is a good indication of how inexpensive prices are in this area.

I've no idea what the price should be. Just saying prices being low in Buffalo or another city happens for reasons. It's like a stock price. Somebody can say "hey look how low this stock's price/earnings ratio is compared to this other one - it's a good deal". And they might be right, but usually there's reasons. Prices in Buffalo could somewhat reasonably be compared to prices in cities of similar size, economic situation, demographics, taxes, etc., but even that gets messy. But to compare prices here to more economically healthy cities, or even to a healthier area around here like Williamsville, can be very misleading. That's all I'm saying.

Obviously a big unknown in this case is what downtown will be like in 2, 5, 10 years. I'm not expecting any huge growth in residential there over those periods. Probably some, but not a huge amount. So what has to be guessed is how much profit can that store make with it's current base of nearby residents and downtown workers on lunch hour.

Joshua, please retire your post from this site. You consistently reveal your own ignorance with your remarks.

You are embarassing yourself.

from gaustad to platt4 - "You criticize negativity, attacks, and name calling, but you are the worst culprit. "

Appartently, you need to take your own advice.

Just for clarification, there is no real estate being exchanged for $275,000. You are inheriting a lease that you would pay on (good questions raised previously about Fucillo's relationship with the landlord... you'd want to go over the lease very carefully). The money buys you the inventory, business processes, fixtures, the good (and poor) will of the business, and any employees that choose to stick around. To make a worthy comparison then, could you go to an empty storefront, start from scratch, and come up with something better for $275,00? The other way to value it would be on expected profit. What rate of return would you expect? Finally, it's not a big store. You could sit out front, count customers and multilply by an estimated average sale. No matter what you conclude the valuation to be, I think most agree that the business model may not have been thoroughly thought through. That being the case, I'm not sure what justifies the spread between the book value of the business, and $275,000.

vgs - thanks for some clarification. That was very helpful.

Rising...Schvug...nice word.... The thing about a price is you only need one person to pay it. I'd steer clear til a number closer to yours. The dream of owning your own retail business can quickly spiral down into you realizing you've put out a big investment, and bought yourself a job you'd never interview for (and listening to everyone tell you what a poor job your doing). Yeah, that's worth $275,000.

great post nonono!

ok im lost. Why is the business being sold? Are Sarah and hugecillo getting a divorce?

Anyway I do not think 275,000 is a lot for this. Especially because of all the lofts and development if the flower district around it. Rocco? You gooing to get it on this? You can collect rents and sell their groceries to them!

Great place. Hope someone keeps it as is. Going to miss Sarah. She has done a great job, super friendly.

i think the owners should give gp his initial investment and seat equity back befor it goes into bankruptcy

did you ever try shopping here on saturday mornings? you can't because it is always closed. the comments about the workers are right on - THEY SUCK!, but i guess its okay because they live in the city. i will drive the 7 minutes to wegman's and get great food good service and the store will be open when i get there and i won't have to look at sara, huge or rocco tickets termini

Wow, it is so refreshing to see that all of you are experts on doing nothing but writing on these stupid blogs. Clearly you have been very successful in running small business because you obviously know what you are talking about and must now be retired to have all this time on your hands.

That aside, I love the market. I live downtown and there is no other options. Im grateful that they took a chance on a small business. Their food is kickin and my office loves their catering. Parking? Plenty out front and parking is free after 5pm mon-fri and free on weekends downtown. Mini wegmans? Thats funny. I find the service down at the market better than most I ever get at a corporate chain... and faster. Wasn't there originally some other partner too? You guys are making it sound like this was some hobby? Um and the store is open on Saturdays...

If you people are going to spout off your opinions, at least have your facts straight...

ruserious - they charge $24 for a bottle of olive oil t - the service is terrible - and the hours are not very good - those are the facts - this is not rocket science

BTD... What I find insulting and disgruntled about is the attacks several of you have made on people I am sure you don't even know. And like you said, you haven't seen their books. It very well could be a profitable business. Many of you appear to be assuming it's full of debt, and that is very likely untrue. You are also basing a lot of your opinions on groceries. I know they do a lot of catering for business and personal. One of the cashiers was even telling me about catering a plane for the St. Louis Blues when they were in town. Id imagine that is a pretty profitable business.

If you have truly looked, that kitchen is a chef's dream. Its large, spacious, and full of equipment that most fine dining establishments don't have. The equipment alone is worth over 100K.

Wilson Farms has shitty service. I still can't see where you people think the employees are so terrible. I have always had polite, friendly, chatty service. Are you that mad at life?

I find it hard to believe that chatting in a blog is proactive enough to "focus on Buffalo." These are business people who actually DID something.

"be careful what you say now..." Thanks Sheriff, but I will keep my wig on

ruserious - if you find the business that viable, then why don't you pony up 275k and buy it.

Then we can all talk one year from now to see your ROI.

Come on, It is great they tried they built a business here, it it was going that well, than why sell?

by semi-local I mean they are in the region and not based in CA or 2000 miles away... Wegmans has a great understanding of WNY and does a lot for both Rochester and Buffalo

HQ location doesn't seem important. If they move HQ some day to another state many miles away, it won't make slightest difference to me as a frequent customer. They "do a lot" for other cities too - Cherry Hill NJ, Fredricksburg VA, Landover MD. I doubt Buffalo is any more important or special to them than any of those.

In terms of closing stores, why wouldn't they. Wegmans is a solid business and closing stores that are not productive makes sense

Point was they rarely close stores so closing one in Buffalo area, not replacing it with a new store, all while opening new ones in other states is a hint at their strategy.

When companies like Wegmans believe in Downtown is there and not on the way, I will as well. ... I am a realist in knowing that there is a VERY VERY long road ahead. ... People talk about the "Renaissance" of Buffalo and some think it is full swing. I am sorry but a couple of office buildings and condo conversions is not a renaissance. It is nice and in the right direction but most people on here are disillusion.

We agree If anything I'd add a few more VERYs. I doubt it'll ever be Wegmans downtown, but maybe "companies like it" might some day.

other national chains have opened mini stores in dense cores. ... Just because it is not done in Buffalo does not mean it is not something Wegmans would not consider

Sure, strategies change but theirs seems evolving very differently - continuing big box model and directing growth firmly toward areas other than NYS.

Oh and parking....This is like 1000 feet from the metro. Most massive parking lots for Wegmans has the same walk. It also has a giant parking lot across the street. Sure both options are not free but it is a city for Christ sake.

Anything's possible and I'll abstain from another parking debate - but suffice it to say I doubt any smart companies like Wegmans would open on a site without a good size lot directly in front or at least on side. But another downtown sites could provide that.

Atwater, do you really have this much time on your hands?

The Galleria Wegman's was closed after the Wegman's at Dick and George Urban (at the time their oldest and smallest store in the area) was fully redone and enlarged. Unless they were super booming having two stores 3 mins (2mi) apart would have pry left one an under performer regardless of other factors. All their stores in the area now seem to be up to date. Trying to make them sound uninterested in the area and even receding in it is a little over simplified to try to make a point, which is not fully accurate. For a metropolitan area with dwindling population growth I think Wegman's continued investment here shows dedication to the market they are serving.

If we want to leave DT the empty wasteland it is then lets beg everyone to take zero risks. The corporates will be the last (a mini Wegman's) and will be a marker for the core "being back". Until then we will have to count on local small businesses etc to take the risk. The Elk Terminal Lofts were criticized and were destined for failure. As was the Calumet when it first opened all alone on Chippewa. Someone took a risk here too. Maybe is was a bad plan, wrong time. etc. I appreciate the risk people like this take. I go out of my way to support them even if it requires an extra trip. I have a vision of what I want the area to be. Somebody took the risk to also see this vision though I can expend a little more effort to support them. I can also leave my comments behind on how it could be better.

We sit around complaining their is no critical mass to do anything DT while at the same time not wanting to put in the extra effort to see that the seeds start to grow. We cry to knock down the old trees that are already there. We stand around waiting for a shiny new forest to pop up all at once. Why do we then question why things are the way they are?

So what if deep pockets bought a business dream for its gal? If the price is too much it will come down. Maybe no one will buy it and it will fail ultimately. A great percentage of businesses do. But if we do not go there for what we like and give feedback to the owner management about what we do not, how do we expect things to change or grow?

Gaustad and BTD - Ha! Me? I type fast but could never keep up with very prolific commenters who must be real masters of time management. Can't think of any right now, but some names show up many times in almost every thread. Some even have time on their hands for ongoing personal battles. But thanks for noticing me - I finally feel relevant!

MJ - You twisted my context. My suggestion to RonR was to choose a different benchmark for downtown success. I agree DT has improved and might improve more, but a store like Wegmans is beyond unrealistic. Maybe a mini-Dash's or a full size Wilson Farms can happen down the road if there's more growth, but a DT Wegmans is about as likely as a DT Ikea. Hey we're all guessing so there's no right and wrong, but I was trying to be constructive. But you are mistaken to say I tried to make them sound uninterested in this area. I said facts look to me that they seem uninterested in adding NEW stores here. Big difference. Spin if you want, but it's other areas where their store counts are growing. Maybe that's random and not a sign of strategy. Yeah right. They were still investing in Walden store improvements even after planning/doing expansion at store two miles away. It wasn't as though they built one store to replace another. The stores co-existed for years, then reduced by one.

http://tinyurl.com/2jwxrj

Wegmans to Close Buffalo-area Galleria Store ... "Our Galleria store was the exception to our norm of being situated in a densely populated residential area," noted Wegmans Buffalo division s.v.p. Mike Keating. "As we have watched every one of our other area stores experience significant sales increases in recent years, our Galleria store's sales growth has remained flat. This was in spite of an investment of over a half-million dollars into improvements in the store in the last several years." ...

Btw, RonR, I wonder how well another store in city of Buffalo would likel