Buffalo Rising Online

Thanks for submitting this....and the brochure....it gives a little more weight to the possibilities that not everyone one who says "hang on a minute.." is a NIMBY.

I think it's a great idea. I have grown up and still live in this area and the affectionately known "tracks" could use some attention. They have mostly been known for places to do drugs and worship the devil. When I have explored the tracks it's a pretty cool thing. A trail connecting all the way to the Riverwalk would be amazing.

Hey as long as they have a 30 foot easement for future light rail expansion.....Im out of the argument.

Yes, this is empty land but the North Buffalo Alliance should be looking at all of North Buffalo for redevelopment.

Except for Hertel....North Buffalo is a hodge-podge of former industrial land....some being converted to retail and some neighborhoods starting to decay....and they should really look at block by block redevelopment......some block rebuilt with new homes....some blocks built with office/business/light industrial (not just retail).

This debate is really a sign of the same mentality that cause the eastside, southside and westside to decay with abandoned buildings. No one looked at how to reweave the fabric of their community to keep older neighborhoods intact by keeping jobs in the community and keeping new residential development in the community.

This railroad greenway shouldnt not be the only focus for North Buffalo and the fact that it is...says alot about the future of North Buffalo. Leave Hertel and North Buffalo is filled with the same decay that the other communities in Buffalo are experiencing. Dont wait until the problems at the fringes reach the heart of the brain....if you want a thriving community, then you have to make sure that all parts of the community are viable for all income groups!

hmm, a 1.2 million dollars investment, funded by public money through a federal grant program, that will produce zero tax dollars VS. a 40 million(i believe thats what i read) dollar private investment that will create high value taxable property.

leave the thirty foot rail ROW. build the damn houses.

I think we could have both

Ditto--Why can't we have it all: greenbelt/trail, rail line, and housing. It's called smart development and an economic catalyst. The LaSalle Metro Station area is a perfect location for an urban transit village. It's a win-win for all and would make some (small) amends for U.B. North. It sounds like NFTA leadership is M.I.A. --again. That's the real and ongoing problem.

I agree with STEEL. Incorporation of a greenbelt/trail is typically a selling point in new developments. A good balance of public land/private development can increase the per-unit profit for Natale and hopefully offset (or exceed) any lost revenue from decreased private acreage. Has Natale posted any proposals on how the acrage will be divided?

im all for a mixed development. incorporating public space into a new residential development is a fantastc idea. however, if you have read the rail trail brochure and paid attention to the arguments againts natale's proposal you know that that is unfortunately not what they (they=nimbys)have in mind. i do think that we should demand that NFTA keep the 30 ft rail right of way. i do think we should demand that natale incorporate public space into the development. i do think that we should demand that all streets built in the proposed development remain public. i just don't see how anyone can even suggest that we choose a million dollar investment into parkspace that will undoubtedly require public money to maintain in the long term and create no increase tax dollars with the exception of the slight increase in propety value that the proposed green space might bring to property in the direct vicinity of it, over a tens of millions of dollar investment (privately funded mind you) that will create mid to high priced residential units, on taxable property(likely with enough aesthetic improvement to also raise the value of bordering properties) and will also bolster construction much more that a million dollar landscaping project. HELLO PEOPLE!!! JOBS!!!

you know the last time i checked, buffalo was bleeding jobs and people, not parks.

veryprotourism, well said! well said!!! -jb

Steel/Urban Body, i couldnt agree more. we can indeed have it all. and it's already been done. it's not rocket science and we're not recreating the wheel. our lake erie neighbor has had it for years. maybe the NFTA should go take some pictures......

http://www.lightrail.com/photos/cleveland/cleveland09.jpg

Do not build the trailway, in that neighborhooh it would be a magnet for muggers. Build the houses to help stabilize a neighborhood that is teetering on the edge of decay. If you don't stabilize you are looking at an area that will be a slum within 15 years.

I'm afraid of muggers too. Lets avoid any development that incorporates open space. And while we're at it let's get rid of all existing bike paths for that matter.

I don't like graffiti either, let's knock down the commercial buidlings on Hertel.

There are multiple areas in and around the North Buffalo nieghborhood that this proposed for which have good to great housing stock. If this area is "teetering on the verge of decay", they have done little to prevent it so why would these new houses?

I agree that if there is enough room, do both plans and leave a light rail easement. That should make everyone happy, and perhaps the new houses / rail would deter crime from the bike path.

There will never be an extension of the light rail. The City is too small and the suburbs do not want it. There is no money to fund the operating deficits and there is simply not enough of a market for it.

New houses will bring in new blood from the suburbs in a way that the existing housing stock will not. Simply put there are a lot of people with means that will only consider new housing. There is plenty of open space within the City already.

"teetering on the verge of decay"... "slum within 15 years."..... ??? do you even know where this area is? this section of north buffalo is one of the more pleasant places in wny. it's so tightly packed that everyone knows their neighbors, and everyone looks out for each other. i grew up there, lived there and still have friends and family in that part of the city. most everyone is true middle class, works for what they have and for the most part take care of their houses and porperty. people go for walks, walk their dogs, kids ride bikes.... i suggest you take look for yourself.

My wife and I live on the north side of Taunton Place. The rail easement property is just on the other side of our backyard fence. This fact was a major plus in our decision to buy the house in 2004. As a lover of all things nature related and an avid birder since childhood, I've been astonished and delighted by the variety of wildlife that inhabits the rail property. I have identified over 40 species of birds in and around our yard, some of which nest in the red osier, mulberry, reeds and cottonwoods that have grown there over the years. This property is not just another example of empty, unproductive Buffalo industrial brownfield. Because of its size and because of the variety of habitat it offers, the rail easement land has become a little ecosystem of its own, supporting an impressive array of animal and plant life. I hope that this is considered in any decisions made about the future of this resource. There is real value in the product of nature's effort to reclaim itself after years of abuse and neglect (think Tifft). I believe this, too, is a part of Buffalo's rich heritage.

Edward: I have been to that neighborhood thousands of times over the past 30 years. It has definitely gone downhill during that time. Much of it is related to the age of the structures but much more of it is socio-economic. The decaying sections of the City are creeping closer to that neighborhood every year. To deny that is to deny the truth. That area now is about as prosperous as the Ken-Bailey area was in the early 80's. And we can see how that area has declined.

pavtogs - if you like using the land behind your house so much you should have made a purchase offer on a piece of it. You should not expect others to provide benifits to you at no cost.

sally- we weren't in the house when the nfta was accepting purchase offers on the property. We would have gladly done what we can. I don't expect anyone else to provide me with anything. I would welcome the use of my tax dollars to help support the preservation of this land. I was simply stating what has excited me & inspired me over the last 2 years.

Sally, the name of this site is Buffalo Rising. Post your slam letters on the Buffalo Sucking website. God knows there are plenty of them out there. You live in fear which is pretty damn sad. Don't compare ken bailey with north buffalo. A bike path alone wouldn't bring young people back to the city but couple it with timeless housing, hertel avenue and then a bike path and you have a recipe for success. I have many young friends that live in North Buffalo and most of them have kids and families. Bringing suburban famalies into the city ISN'T the answer. If ANYONE wants to make a difference please attend March 29th. From Bill Parke....

Thank you for your email. I am a community planner working with a citizen planning group, the North Buffalo Good Neighbors Planning Alliance (NBuf GNPA).

This group has been at the forefront in advocating for the "North Buffalo greenway". The co-chairs of this group are Frank Armento and David Chudy. They have an upcoming meeting on March 29 at the North Buffalo Community Center at 6:00pm. I'll forward your email to them and invite you to attend the meeting.

You might also be interested that I have an intern from Germany in our office working on city-wide Greenway planning issues. He has a presentation he has prepared, and if you would like, perhaps you can visit our office in City Hall and meet with him to see his work. He is from Hamburg, Germany, where there is a strong bicycle/pedestrian culture. Many of his ideas have influenced our thinking on greenways in our community planning division. You can schedule a visit via my office, at the number below. Please note, however, that his internship ends March 15. His name is Lars Koch.

Bicycling weather is upon is, and it is a great time to raise this issue.

Rgds,

Bill

Bill Parke Community Planner Office of Strategic Planning City of Buffalo 920 City Hall Buffalo, NY 14202 Phone: 716-851-5123 Fax: 716-854-0172 bparke@city-buffalo.com www.city-buffalo.com

I am a first time home owner in North Buffalo who scoured the market for the perfect location and my perfect house for over 18 months. Now that I've been here for about 18 months, I am 100% happy with my final decision and have already seen the value of my home improve in my fabulous neighborhood. We don't need no stinking Sallys.

Thanks Lulu & Kevin! We LOVE our house and feel great about the neighborhood & its future. I'm encouraged by the passion & interest folks have on issues like these. Apathy & negativism are the surest paths to failure. Let's hope whatever solutions are found help improve an already great neighborhood.

i like how honest criticism is turned into slamming when it doesn't line up with your way of thinking.

kevin s.- maybe you could further elaborate on why north buffalo good neighbors has repeatedly stated that they want "no new housing built in this area" perhaps you could explain why greenspace alone would be better than housing with public access and greenspace(which natale has publicly suggested that it is willing to create) furthermore, maybe you could tell us why, since the greenway project is over 4 years old and the city of buffalo has had the funding from the grant program in place for several years now that there was never previously such a vocal outcry to build the greenway. why were your efforts so slow until recently?

and yes, this is buffalo "rising". slamming buffalo is not necessary. however, debating the value of one project vs another, regardless of what side you end up taking, seems alot more concerned than blindly jumping behind every presevationist movement.

Thank you Edward Industry and Pavtogs for defending our neighborhood. I live on the other side of the tracks in the University Heights community- a very diverse and tightly knit neighborhood. In the past 3 years we have experienced renewed interest in our neighborhood. Young professionals, young families are purchasing and rehabilitating homes. More sustainable businesses have cropped up along Main Street. With the formation of the University Heights Collaborative we are reaping the benefits of community involvement and accountability as it pertains to home ownership, business development, neighborhood beautification, as well as civic responsibility. This is not an area of urban decay- this is not a place where the idea of renewal has gone to die.

Our home is the last block of one of the streets that ends at the former railroad corridor and green space in question. It is a quiet, peaceful neighborhood and for the most part it is well maintained. I grew up in the Parkside area of Buffalo. Delaware Park was an extension of our backyards. When we moved into our home in the Heights 9 years ago with our then infant son, we were so pleased to discover this hidden gem- a consolation to the absence of the larger public park I was accustomed to. Of course we had to navigate our way around the remnants of illegal dumping and we kept a vigilant eye on our immediate surroundings as we took our walks along the tracks. But there is something so spectacular about watching hawks soar overhead and ground hogs scamper near your feet that you forget you are in the middle of an urban environment. Frolicking critters and interesting vegetation aside- this is such and asset for our community. It discourages a sedentary lifestyle and offers a refuge away from the noise of the city. Many have suggested we just use the bike path in Delaware Park. Itis not as close as those of you who are unfamiliar with our neighborhood would like to think. And with 3 children in tow, itis not that easy. Itis so nice to just be able to walk out your door, when the spirit moves you, any time, any day and within minutes be on that trail enjoying fresh air and interactions with neighbors. Many of you who are responding to this issue have little comprehension of the make up of this community and how development would, if it even can, fit into our neighborhoods. Please visit and familiarize yourself with the land and community in question. You criticize citizens who have been fighting to protect the integrity of their neighborhoods by working diligently to preserve and improve upon this Greenway, belittling their efforts by dismissing them with a NIMBY attitude. But truthfully, it is so easy to make decisions for others- to decide what constitutes well being of a community when it is Not In Your Back Yard.

I an truely sorry if I offended some of you by stating the obvious. The fact is that that portion of the City needs this development far more than the developer needs the City. You can do some research on the net which I have done and you will see that there has been a steady erosion of population, relative income and retail activity in that section of Buffalo over the last 30 years. This erosion actually picked up steam during the 1990's according to the federal data I saw for that neighborhood. This development offers a chance to stem the tide before it is too late.

As for Amy C. if she thinks that the University District is anything but a poor shadow of what it was in the 60's or 70's they she is either too young to remember or too blind to see.

Buffalo can rise but it cannot do so with out an open arm to new development and a business friendly attitude. Developers are not the enemy people they are a tool in the solution.

Sally, tell me something new. The biggest issue to me is people go where the jobs are. End of story. Buffalo has lost allot of jobs to other cities and it's own neighbor suburbs. Buffalo HAS to be developer friendly and I think Tobe can do a great job. As for the rails to trails...I think in a perfect world you would want to do housing integrated with the bike path. I have worked in holland and TOTALLY seen how it's been done "the right way." That being said I know Natale has NO EXPERIENCE with urban environments. I don't want the suburbs in the city!!!!! End of story. If Natale can come up with some urban design that works, God bless our city. In fact I'll put in my prayers this week. I'm just looking at the realities and I don't know if Natale can make it happen. In fact I challenge him to make it happen. There needs to be deadlines and LOTS of details. I don't want to see vague drawings with pink tree's like everything is going to be perfect. Of course it looks good in a drawing. If Natale can't come through then Rails to trails is the easy answer. The money is all set to go for Rails to Trails. I have a ton to say and this forum isn't conductive to discussions we are having. I'm 99% in I'll be at the March 29th meeting so you can talk to me then I'll be more than willing to share my thoughts and experiences with anyone.

Sally, You are right. I wasnit here in the 60is and 70is. But I AM HERE NOW. I have lived in North Buffalo for over 30 years. We chose to live in this community above all other locations because of the people, the uniqueness of the area (the cottage-y houses), its close proximity to shopping and recreation and, of course, itis potential for growth. We have not been disappointed. Our eyes are wide open. Our minds are wide open. You can not discount the experiences of those who actually live here presently.

For the record, we arenit against businesses and development. But we also canit proceed with myopic, singular visions of development. Once the green space is gone, itis gone. We feel a responsibility as a community to consider the long term effects of destroying this little ecosystem. I understand the backlash toward the preference of grassroots, hands-on efforts over leveling what has been referred to as decay or plunging shovels into the earth to make way for growth. It must be frustrating to watch because it is a much more tedious process. We believe the best way to achieve healthy growth and development is to maintain dialogue with our civic and community leaders and engage our neighbors in hands- on efforts to address our concerns (safety, beautification, business development, revitalization and recreation). We have already made great strides with the help of the University Heights Collaborative toward achieving our goals of civic and personal responsibility and accountability in our neighborhoods. We welcome constructive input, well thought out plans, and knowledge that will help us move forward. No one on this side is so obstinate as to dig his/her heels in and allow a critical opportunity for growth and improvement to pass us by. But, development in the vision of Nataleis proposal is a very weak band aid and the ailments that have existed for decades will only continue to fester beneath it. THIS neighborhood primarily will be dealing with the scabs and scars for decades more to come. Also, development will not be as simple as many of you who favor it choose to believe. The land is swampy. There is a natural spring that runs along the land and through the neighborhoods. You will not be the one left with a vacant development in your backyard because foundations began to sink and structures became uninhabitable. We are trying to take a reasonable, thoughtful approach to all of this since it is in our backyards. We are enlisting the help of architects/ planners who are familiar with the area interested in exploring further options for development. We would prefer someone who is knowledgeable about our urban environment.

There is a very interesting essay by Lynda H. Shneekloth titled Why the Greenway Should be Green( presented at the Annual Meeting of the Buffalo Niagara Riverkeepers, January 23, 2006) that addresses the concerns of lost revenue with the construction of a Greenway. I donit have a link to the article but if anyone is interested in it- please contact me through my link here and I will try to get it to you

Kevin: Who are you to challenge them to do anything? If you have all of the answers and can do better then why don't you buy and develop the property? Developers must deal with the realities of the financila nd consumer markets to make the project work or they will go out of business. It's very easy to say how things are done in Europe but last time I looked in my wallet there were no Euros just US Dollars. Holland is a totally different culture than the US and to try and replicate them is just silly.

Sally, I don't have all the answers but I will try to give my input in a couple of weeks, for better or worse. You on the other hand have NO answers at all other than saying development is good. That is so 80's. I think development is good but you have to take into account an existing area, especially North Buffalo which is already heavily developed. I'm not saying the Rails to Trails = holland. I'm saying take some of the key parts of how you integrate bike path in holland and use that here. They are the experts in holland. Just like I'm saying if you do a project in an urban enviroment then get and urban developer. Last time I checked...Natale wasn't struggling to make ends meet. All you see is $40million = good for the city coffers. I'll all for the development if you can take into account the bike path and the existing urban enviroment. That is where Natale and North Buffalo residents don't see eye to eye. If I win the lotto tonight I'll buy the land and make it all better.

Sally, north buffalo is anything but in a state of "decay"

Gabe:

I did not say North Buffalo was in a State of Decay I said it was heading in that direction and that unless the slippage is stopped it will be in a state of decay in a matter of 10-15 years.

Kevin:

Perhaps if Buffalo had experienced some of the 80's development you so disdain the population would not have fallen by the 160,000+ that it has since 1970. For tonight try 6-14-32-44-29-18

Sally, what we are saying is we are trying to make North Buffalo a better place to live, because that is what it's all about. That what makes the city a better place. That's what brings young famalies back in. When I think 80's, I think sinking homes in Amherst. See the damage that has done not only physically but perception wise? It's 100% easier to develop on farm land in the middle of no place where there are no zoning laws. Hell, my grandma could do it. Oh and if I play your numbers and I win you have to buy a house in my development. ;-)

Buy? Shouldn't mine be free since I gave you the winning numbers? You are talking like one of those developers already!!!

You have provided no evidence that North Buffalo is on its way to decay.

If any places will fail, it will be the more sprawling suburban areas within the next 10 years while global oil depletion starts rearing its ugly head. This series of events will render unlivable, places built 100% dependent on automobiles. The old city will be worth saving everything is much closers and errands can be accomplished by foot., bike, and streetcar.

Places like Cheektowaga and Amherst will be grim places to live when it takes 40 minutes on foot to grab milk and bread.

Gabe: Please come back to Earth. You want proof of the decline look up census data for those census tracts from 1970,80, 90 & 2000. Compare the population decline, then compare the income and eduactional levels in those tracts compared to Erie County as a whole, do this and you will have your proof. I have done it if you want the proof you will have to do it too. I am not going to spoon feed a lazy kool aid drinker.

Gabe; Don't you think that even if your doomsday scenario came to fruition and people needed public transportation to get around that it would be provided in the suburbs first. Of course it would compared to Buffalo the people of Amherst Cheektowaga and Tonawanda have far more wealth, clout and voting influence. There are no current streetcars in Buffalo and if they were to build them under your no gas scenario thay would do it in the burbs.

Plus I would venture to say that in the inner suburbs you probably have no longer of a walk for living essentials than you do in the City. In fact the walk is probably shorter in the suburbs because of the plethora of retail choices that is g in the City.

Sally, since this discussion is about my neighborhood, and since I believe you stated in an early post that you don't live here, I ask this: Where do you live? Is your neighborhood also doomed? Has this discussion taken an argumentative tone due to our collective effort to justify our personal opinions? (thinking out loud...no need to answer that one!) So be it. Regarding the 'steady erosion of population, relative income and retail activity in that section of Buffalo over the last 30 years', I dare say our entire region has been subject to such decline, City and Suburbs and pocket neighborhoods throughout. To highlight North Buffalo as an area of specific concern is contrary to the neighborhood investment I see every day. As someone who lives here now, and plans to for a while, I choose to focus on the positive and will continue to make my neighborhood a better place for the entire community to enjoy.

LuLU you said : "I dare say our entire region has been subject to such decline, City and Suburbs"

Not true City of Buffalo population since 1960 down 240,000. Erie County population outside of Erie County since 1960 UP 113,565. Specific Towns in Erie and Niagara Counties since 1960: Amherst up 75%, Cheektowaga up 32%, Lancaster up 87%, Town of Lockport up 203%, Wheat field up 119% and on and on.

Source: US Census Bureau

Thankfully you have so many answers. How about answering the questions I asked directly of you? Regarding the suburban flight since 1960, I get it. I also can't do anything about it. However, my point was and still is that the effects of said suburban flight are felt by the entire community, both those areas losing the peeps and those gaining them. It is a community issue, not an isolated us vs. them, city/suburb issue for me.

Sally doesn't get it. Were talking about revitalizing an area and she is talking about how her fake community rocks. You would be perfect on an episode of desperate housewives. Well amherst technically GREW guess what...erie county didn't. I'll bet your married or know one. Freaking sad. It's all about developers and shuffling the population. I'll bet you paid MSRP for your car and think catherdal ceilings are the best thing since the resurrection. Wake up to the REAL world, not wysteria lane.

The claim that the Natale development will produce an influx of new tax revenue for Buffalo is completely false. Each lot in the LaSalle One development on Main St cost $200,000 to get shovel ready. At that rate, it will be 20 years before the city breaks even, and that is assuming that the residents don't use any city services like schools, police or fire.