Buffalo Rising Online

You hear that Phoenix, Atlanta, and Las Vegas? Only from our dead hands will you get access to our h2o.

Day One, everthing changes. Go Democrats, way to ($*%$ it up.

Its good but there are no US States, Canadian Provinces, Domestic or Foreign Corporations planning to redirect water from the Great Lakes.

More likely would be attempts to redirect the waters of the Mississippi but my guess is that the Mississippi effort might succeed under the guise of replacing Federal Levies with Federal Locks.

GREAT NEWS!!!! So important to our future and our children's future to not throw away this resource.

now can we get Buffalo to join the Great Lakes Cruising Coalition....and built the light rail to Niagara Falls so those cruise ship passengers can disembark and easily visit many our cultual interests within one day

I admittedly am ignoring some legitimate environemtal issues, but to me this just sounds like sour grapes. The reason why places like Vegas, Arizona, Charlotte, etc. are growing is because of lower taxes, less union influence, and a much more business friendly atmosphere. Instead of trying to be like the kid who wants to take his ball and go home when he is losing, the northeast needs to focus on those issues first.

We have to proctect what is ours.... We are giving away our cheap power and lower taxes to other states, let us at least protect our water

Vegas, Arizona, and Charlotte are also relatively new cities that haven't been saddled with the costs of an aging infrastructure while enjoying persistent growth over the last thirty years. The municipal and state budgets of these locales are going to absolutely explode in the coming years.

This is, of course, to say nothing of the public school systems in these areas which are sub-par. The cruelest irony of all is that these areas have benefited immensely from the high levels of human capital they have been able to import from us high tax states.

I will concede every point made thus far so I can ask a question: How much would it cost per capita to "fairly" have sufficient water in Arizona (above what we pay now)? I

One point I didn't mention in original post is that I sadly concede that every US state will eventually turn into the municipal union dominated welfare state that NY is. That is becasue the American people have shown that is what they want want. I personally want to take advantage of this temporary market imbalance, make a lot of money here and then maybe move back later. Come back and vote? I lived in North Buffalo for 25 and am very proud of Buffalo people and Buffalo culture. But coming back to vote is useless- New York and Buffalo are so Democratic, so Liberal, that is would take 30 years to change- and that is if the change started right now, which it isn't.

I will concede every point made thus far so I can ask a question: How much would it cost per capita to "fairly" provide for our own water in Arizona (above what we pay now)? Let's say $1,200 per person per year- $100 per month. The last time I did a rough estimate, I would have to get about a 10K per year salary raise, just to BREAK EVEN to come back to NYS- property taxes, gas prices, sales taxes, personal income taxes, etc. And most people in AZ could probably say the same thing. So if everyone's point is that we should pay our fair share, you have no complaint from me. But paying more for water is not enough to stop the population bleeding from the notheast- its a fair point, but as I originally stated, protecting water is an "easy" decison- it doesn't take courage to fight for becaase anyone from NY would be in favor of it. What about the hard fights of making real cuts to government employment, real cuts to public union contract benefits, or eliminating the ALL tollbooths on the Thruway (as should have been done in 1996)? I lived in North Buffalo for my first 25 years- I am proud of Buffalo people, culture, and traditions. And to me this still sounds like sour grapes- these states will continue to grow for the foreseeable future whether or not they pay a little more for water. If you want to make them pay more, God bless you, I have no problem, but thats not the real problem.

nagowski is right in my opinion 20 years from now these "cheap" places to live will be decidedly less cheap as schools age and need upgrades, teachers there will demand equitable pay and if you think suburban sprawl is bad in Buffalo you haven't seen anything compared to some of our western or southern cities. My mother and father in law live in a sprawled out suburb ok Knoxville 30 miles from the city center, a city smaller than Buffalo with a much more spread out population. These places are already getting more expensive as a percentage terms their municipal budgets are growing faster than many in WNY already. Their water and electricity rates will be rising faster than ours as well because especially in the south they have few renewable options.

Northeast states benefit greatly from natural resources of states to the south and west. Fresh fruits and vegetables year round, cotton for our clothes. All that needs sunshine and water. Also of course petroleum for the cars we like to drive and plastics we like to use. The U.S. imports 58% of oil, so the other 42% comes from where again?

On and on. Are we 'stealing' all that from them?

I agree with mds that it sounds like sour grapes. Keep all the Great Lakes water here - fine, whatever - hurry up and pass laws for that once and for all, and then move on the the next excuse to whine about with a fully victimized attitude.

And to me this still sounds like sour grapes- these states will continue to grow for the foreseeable future whether or not they pay a little more for water. If you want to make them pay more, God bless you, I have no problem, but thats not the real problem.

Damp - Thanks for the nomination, but I heard a rumor Client 9 is trying for that job.

Biniszkiewicz - Who's said it'd have to be large scale and who said there wouldn't be payments for water, infusing NY with money? However I won't argue that. I'll accept the assertion that ever selling for money any water to any other state would harm all residents of NYS.

...large scale removal of water from the Great Lakes would have a pronounced detrimental effect upon all of those residing here.

NYers use of other states natural resources throughout its history has had some detrimental effects too. No doubt there's environmentalists who argue some aspects of oil drilling harms all residents where it happens, but still NYers seem happy to use the oil. NYS imports coal from non-GL states for power plants, and coal mining causes pronounced detrimental effects. NYers also buy a lot of farm products that need water and soil of non-GL states. And the oil industries and refineries down there need communities, people, and ...water. So it's ok for NYers to benefit from non-GL state water, soil, mountains, off-shore drilling areas, etc., sometime with detrimental effects, but the idea of ever selling any water to them is off the table.

I'm sure that's all different though. Other states are in an 'environmental bubble', but GL states aren't because... well because.

As I said, it's fine with me to require all GL water to be always forever kept in GL states. Sounds extreme, but I won't oppose it. I don't know if it'd be feasible to transport water that far to Arizona anyhow. Probably not.

But when you extend your argument to tell mds he's living in an 'environmental bubble with insufficient natural resources' that sounds to me ignoring benefits that NYS for many decades has obtained from natural resources of the south and west.

...Move back and vote. Reform the place. Then you can also avail yourself of the resources native to this region. Otherwise, go on living in your environmental bubble with insufficient natural resources. ...

What inspired you to switch from saying water to 'natural resources'? Just sounded better, or you did you have some other resources in mind? What other than water makes them an 'environmental bubble' more so than NYS is with its heating needs? This I gotta hear.

That was my guess too - closer sources would make much more sense than Great Lakes water anyway.

Should New York State sell water to the Southwest? Maybe, but there are better options much closer to that region that should be explored. Off the top of my head: Flood control in the Mississippi River Basin can be redeveloped to send large shots of water to the Southwest when possible. Steadier supplies can be gained by desalination as well as a return to the table on Colorado River water.

Energy is a pretty big 'aside'. And sure, NY could import food from other countries but at more expense. Seems to me that Bini and Great Lakes United make it sound like NYers are on high horses in a white hats about all this.

Energy aside, most states are relatively self-sufficient...

Bini - Quick look at USDA site says in dollars Arizona grows much more farm products per capita than does NYS (AZ: $2.4B and 5.1M mouths to feed, vs. NYS: $3.2B and 19M mouths).

As to what other natural resources I had in mind, I was thinking specifically about farmland.

Looks to me that NYS would need to triple its farm output to match Arizona's per resident, or with same farm output reduce its population by two thirds. Yes it's trying hard to do the latter.

http://www.nass.usda.gov/census/census02/topcommodities/topcom_AZ.htm

(and same URL with _NY instead of _AZ).

Damp - Even with the a/c, AZ per capita energy use looks near lowest in U.S., 46th. NYS is 49th. Btu numbers very close. Yes they have growing electricity needs and have proposals for a large solar plant and more nuclear. NYS has electricity issues too as we've seen. Re. oil and gasoline, since it's going to California anyhow sending some on to AZ from there is really a lot worse than where NYS transports it from?

Great Lakes water controversy aside, you guys haven't convinced me AZ is an 'environmental bubble with insufficient natural resources' compared to NYS as Bini accused mds of living in. Both AZ and NYS have similar energy use, AZ has more food output, both need more electricity, both import oil from far away. What am I missing? Should Bini's demand that mds move back here and reform Albany's taxing-spending for us be changed to a request or a beg? Or has he already rented the U-haul?

http://www.eia.doe.gov/emeu/states/sep_sum/html/pdf/rank_use_per_cap.pdf

I'm surprised to read that AZ produces $2.4B as compared to our $3.2. Is this all produce? Does it include livestock?

Those USDA links I posted above for AZ and NYS show sales amounts for different categories of farm products per state. Yes it includes produce, livestock, dairy. Top selling category in AZ is "Vegetables, melons, potatoes, and sweet potatoes" (31% of total) and in NYS it's dairy (50% of total). For the "Vegetables..." category, AZ produces over double what NYS does in total dollar sales ($750M vs. $322M).

Maybe it does sound like sour grapes. But then again, maybe in this particular case my paranoia is justified.

I'm sure the whole issue is far more complicated than my info made it sound too. Good arguments can be made on either side for something like this. Many factors and variables.

It worries me that their water usage is so out of proportion to what nature replenishes. It wouldn't worry me at all if they had a plan, at least one not involving water our region depends on.

I've seen no verifiable evidence that AZ ever made any serious effort to obtain Great Lakes water. There's a lot of speculation, paraphrasing of politicians, and alarmism from some people and groups. But what I've heard so far sounds like rumors.

I don't know if your worry that AZ doesn't have any plan for future water needs is true. My guess is they have big concerns and some plans. According to this (see pg 6), the feds suggested three possible long term plans to them (none of which involve Great Lakes) but I don't know if those are the only plans they're considering: http://www.usbr.gov/lc/phoenix/reports/ncawss/NCAWSSROFFULL.pdf

Lastly, I'm shocked by the statistic that NYS ranks 49th in per capita energy use. Did I understand that right? We are only one state away from being the lowest energy use/capita?

I was surprised too. Maybe it's helped by things you mentioned or by having many millions people not too well off economically in NYC - not owning cars, not living in big houses, etc. In that DOE list (near lower right corner) the B.t.u. numbers of lowest few states are pretty close together. There's got to be some margin for error in an analysis like that. Rankings probably aren't precise, but it's interesting both AZ and NYS are in lowest portion of that list compared to most states.