Buffalo Rising Online

Over my dead body.

The primary responsibility for finding a reuse lies in the Buffalo Diocese. Ideas for reuse are legion, but the church doesn't get passing grades by passing the buck to people who don't own the building.

As usual the preservationists are against an innnovative idea. Here is a new idea let the building rot away a be looted for copper and other metals and then we would have another beat up building on the east side of buffalo.

Why don't we send the Central Terminal to a place that has more train travel? Why oppose that innovative idea?

Somehow I believe that this is flipping in the purest sense and should be an Anti Flipping Task Force issue.

The former St. Francis de Sales church (575 Humboldt Pkwy at Northland Ave) is a similar building and should be dismantled and given to the congregation in Georgia. Even though it already is a local landmark, no one has cared about it since the Catholic Diocese dumped it 15 years ago.

Here's a plan from the preservation community: landmark the building so stupid ideas get nothing more than embarassing news articles.

Chrishawley:

That would be proactive and make too much sense, the preservation community stands by its creed: reactive to a fault. Stand on the sidelines until someone tries to do something instead of logically mapping out a detailed plan to identify and protect key landmarks, therefore creating predicability and advancing the region.

I love the idea. Flipping? More like reuse.

If it were moved, what would take it's place? another vacant lot?

Maybe the Diocese can throw Tim Teilman into the package, so although we would lose a great architectural structure, we would be getting rid of an eyesore who plagues our community.

Maybe we can send the politicians, that have not created job growth in 50 years and that we insist on voting in, with the church.

Hence the reason for church closings and this dialogue.

The fact it's economically viable (and apparently necessary) is a kick in the collective gut to our community.

We're in dire need of some leadership, none seems forthcoming.

NBJOHN, church closings are a national phenomenon in central cities across the nation. It is not unique to Buffalo.

Carlmalone, the legislation that created the city Preservation Board does actually require the board to actively seek out new landmark designations, with historic resource surveys such as what you describe. This power has seldom been exercised, though some cities do it routinely.

A more proactive approach to landmarking historic buildings would require a change in the law that's held the preservation community back: a mandatory $500 fee just to *apply* to have a building designated. Applying gives no guarantee of success, either, particularly with an uncooperative owner like the Buffalo diocese. In cities like New York, reviewing landmark applications is considered a public service, and there is no charge.

To the Preservation Board's credit, they are seeking to landmark threatened churches.

Landmark all these churches.... we all know how we treat our landmarks here in western new york..

They think they can disassemble this church, pack in properly and ship it all the way to Georgia and reassemble it as is for a paltry $3 million... this won't happen because its definately gonna cost $5 million +++ to get this job done properly. Crazy rebels.. we're not talking about a strip mall here

ChrisHawley:

Please don’t take this the wrong way, but please let’s just call the “the law needs to be changed” what it is: an excuse and poor one at that. I am fully cognizant that not all applications are approved. The reason being not all structures are actually historic, regardless of one’s personal viewpoint. A lot of people here think every building in this town is worth saving, they are wrong.

The monetary concession forces the preservation community to prioritize high-value, architectural significant properties. Let’s say there are 1,000 high-value structures. That’s $50,000 in total application fees. Let’s throw in another $50k for application submission, copying costs etc. I routinely ask for money from individuals and corporations in this town and easily raise much more than $100k for a cause which quite honestly has far less value than the preservation of architectural jewels.

Excuses are excuses and only serve to block progress. What the preservation community really needs is some leadership and a viable strategic plan which encompasses both the business and greater community’s interests. This is not the case today. Coming up with the money is not the hard part.

My guess is the cost and other practicalities will prevent the Georgians from going though with moving this church. But if they really want to move it, why not? Buffalo obviously has was too many vacant churches to make use of. How is moving it worse than the likely alternative?

It's a numbers issue. Suppose some re-use could be found for this church. It's doubtful, but suppose it could. That re-use could easily occur in some other vacant church instead. The number of vacant churches greatly exceeds the amount of realistic re-use. There's been a few success stories, sure, and some more are possible. But look at the numbers and look at what usually happens across the city.

al-alo, I think you'll agree that communities are people, not geographic locations. The Catholic community that as you said "saved their pennies to build" this church are people/families who in large number moved away, in many cases far away, a generation or two down the road after it was built. If much of the community didn't stay in a city, why should it be that each and every building they built in that city has to stay forever?

It wasn't the ground at any particular spot of earth who saved pennies for this building. It was people who had feet and long ago used them to move away. I'm neither defending or attacking them for moving away. That was their decision and none of my business. But now the reality is there's all these empty buildings around here. When they stay empty too long they do more harm than good to the people here now in the present day.

I agree with you there shouldn't be deed restrictions. However for this particular church building, what realistic re-use is being prevented by deed restrictions?

Those who built it are passed away, their descendants are in many cases decided to spread out - some still in Erie Co, some far away. It's a mobile society obviously. People come and go.

The diocese selling the bishop's Oakland Pl mansion has been raised a lot and might happen some day. That's none of my business either. If the bishop moved from that, I doubt a huge church would be the most cost effective place to live compared to other buildings the diocese owns. The former Courier building downtown is another that they could sell. None of this affects the reality that huge churches don't have a lot of realistically viable re-use in present day Buffalo. Some do, but not nearly enough compared to how many there are.

How do we reuse St. Gerars's, anyhow?

* The Catholics in the Delavan-Bailey neighborhood are mostly gone, except for some elderly hangers-on.

* The physical plant is too large, and therefore too costly, for most smaller African-American congregations to maintain. There's many smaller, more easily-managed non-Catholic churches fleeing whites left behind that are more practical for a growing inner city congregation.

* The neighborhood is distressed, so there's almost no demand for adaptive reuse such as lofts, offices, a large nightclub, and so on.

* Community center? Maybe with the school, but not with a sanctuary that costs tens of thousands to heat every year. It's a waste of money for what is probably an already-underfunded group.

* Museum? See the above.

There's only two option I see here, if the building is to be saved,

* Force pious Catholic whites at gunpoint to move back to Delavan-Baiiley.

* Move the building

Maybe, though, instead of Georgia, if the building actually can be relocated, it can stay closer to home? Somewhere in the 'burbs, or possibly Toronto? Still sucks, but what;s the alternative, aside from keeping it empty and spending thousands to heat and guard the place when it has no practical reuse as it stands?

FWIW, the kids I knew that attended school mat St. Gerard hated the place with every fiber of their being. The place was legendary in Northeast Buffalo during the 1970s and 1980s for its cruel corporate punishment. Whenever I met a St. Gerard student, almost right away they'd reveal tales of classmates or themselves being duct-taped to desks, forced to stand at attention for hours, and so on. St. Al's students experienced a cakewalk in comparison.

Skarnath:

The preservation community’s lack of leadership is clearly demonstrated by Tielman's presentation on the Buffalo Psychiatric Center and the Richardson Complex, released ahead of the Richardson Center Corporation that is charged with overseeing the redevelopment. Why waste his energy focused on even delivering a plan? The RCC is more than capable of developing a plan for redevelopment. Look who is on their board; are they not capable of delivering a thought, realistic plan? I most certainly would think so.

Why are his resources deployed and expanded to develop an alternate plan, or Tim’s plan, when instead energy and resources should be focused on other needed matters. Let’s be cliché: too many cooks in the kitchen.

You need to strategize, prioritize, execute, stay on point, and avoid redundancy. Quite frankly, I don’t see any of this coming from the leadership of WNY’s preservation community. It truly is sad.

I wonder how many people posting to this thread are practicing Catholics who routinely (religiously) attend services in the City of Buffalo churches.

How many of you classify yourselves as 'free thinking agnostics and atheists', and how many of you are quick to jump as soon as a politician mentions religion or if there is a religious symbol displayed anywhere in public.

The same people who celebrate Buffalo Reuse for selling salvaged plywood and toilets are up in arms about the reuse of an entire building. Has anyone quantified the environmental impact that reusing these materials will have? I bet there is some group in Norcross, GA complaining that the most recently built church lacks the charm and character of the older churches in America.

We are getting what we have been asking for, creative reuse of a historically significant building. It is too bad that Buffalo doesn't have the Catholic population to support the reuse of this structure, and the diocese doesn't see fit to let it become a bar or occasional rental hall for weddings and community art shows.

If you have a better idea, then put up the money and reinvest in the church. If not, then let it go. There is a reason that the Preservationists are often perceived as reactionary and obstructionist. You want to fight this move, but you have absolutely no plans for better use of the building.

It realy saddens me that people are so spiritually bankrupt in our nation as is evidenced from the closings, the neglect, the wholesale gutting, the abandonment, the demolition or even moving of our churchs.

The south and west really have no such architectural gems. To be honest worshipping in those locations is not much different than worshipping in a cafeteria or auditorium. Why because the newly built cities were built after vatican2 when the latin mass was banned, simple things like incense and candles were dismissed and chorals and organs were replaced with grass, unwashed bodies, bare feet, beaded dresses and guitars. Ave Maria was replaced with Kumbuh Yah. The churchs of the Latin Mass were built for their physical presence to place you closer to the holy spirit...the 60s said the holy spirit was everyway and mother, father, abortion, birth, marriage, adultery, fornication, chastity, prudence, providence were guidelines. A nation interwoven in community became unraveled into selfishness, self centeredness and alienation (email, tv, videogames, etc)

I dont know...losing one of Buffalos Churchs would certainly aid the spiritual masses of cities that dont have Buffalos gifts but if that is the case then why not a church in danger of demolition like Our Lady of Notre Dame De Lourdes?

The Catholic Church of Buffalo which I am very sad to announce is about as much a shephard of its flock of parishoners as it is caretaker of its churches. How anyone can entrust their spiritual salvation to a Bishop that is unwilling to care for the institutions that built his diocese...is beyond my comprehension. The bishop should be out there putting the question of school choice and school vouchers and the fate of parochial schools right nect to the issue of charter schools. The bishop should be right out there in the community working with the municipality and the business community to rebuild endangered communities, especially since churches know before governments which communities are in danger and in transition.

If our body is the temple for our souls, then should we care less for those buildings which are caretakers of our communal spirit? The answer to this question is that the bishop is a business manager devoid of the holy spirit and his spiritual void is manifest in the flock within his diocese and visibly manifest in their buildings.

An incredible idea. Would love to see such an event occur. Reason? First, why not? -- it'd be cool to see the deconstruction. Secondly, as someone said this, the US, is a mobile society, and as someone, me, who was married in one of the Buffalo Diocese's recently closed church's, St. John the Baptist in Black Rock, I'd love to someday attend mass in the church were I was married again, and if it was moved to GA or wherever, well then, ROADTRIP!!!

Most of the above comments are not about faith, but simply, "oh yeah, its a cool building, let's bitch about it. When one of these church's dies, a part of ourselves dies. ANY attempt to keep them faith communites should be looked at, and not a 'freak out scene' for the area's hipsters. Frankly, unless your an RC, mind your own business.

-John

It is incredibly unreasonable to think that everything is going to stay the same forever. As we speak, something is changing slightly in our city, one direction or another. So groups like the Catholic Church need to adapt to those changes. They need to serve their members, but where those members are is always changing. The fact is that there are not enough members to support this many churches in those urban areas. And they're anticipating not having enough priests to staff them all soon. People who want to keep everything, and keep everything the same, are fighting a losing battle against the tide. Think of the opportunity costs we could incur by not trying or building anything new. So many people only talk about what you lose with old buildings (many of which have a lifespan). What about what you gain with something new? Louis Sullivan designed what we consider to be a masterpiece of early skyscraper construction with his Guaranty Building downtown. This we gained. What did we lose in the process? - what sort of 1800's building was demolished in its place? You save what's useful and what can be useful and can be adapted. And in any case, if you want to save something, who's going to pay for it? Who's going to use it? These questions haven't been answered. Except by these folks in Georgia. Instead of building some McMansion of a church they're trying to adapt something for changing current uses. You want to save all of these buildings - where is the money going to come from? If you make into an art exhibit, that's great for some but again, where's the money coming from because that won't be a revenue-generating operation. Times change and so do needs. If we do not adapt to meet those needs, we'll be left behind...much like we keep complaining that we are.

1. Why should we let another part of the country loot a piece of our heritage? Our architecture is one of the advantages we have over other areas. Letting it be picked apart is short sighted.

2. The Catholic Church is awash in money. Even today, it is one of the most powerful institutions on the planet. If it actually cared about this church, it could save it.

3. While people blame the loss of the Catholic population to the suburbs for the closing of this church, Church policy played a big role in encouraging that flight. The Catholic Church is on record against sprawl and its negative effects, and could have lived by that commitment and refused to build new churches out in areas that had been farmland a decade before. Instead, they chose the path of least resistance and abandoned the city in favor of ample parking. This whole issue is, forst and foremost, a failure in leadership on the part of the Church.

Just think of how great this will be for the thousands of Buffalonians who have moved to the Atlanta area. Norcross is 25 minutes away from Atlanta, and even closer for those living in North Atlanta and Mechanicsville. We lost the population to greener pastures, now it is time for the rest of the city to follow. We no longer have the population to fill the pews and probably won't for decades to come, especially in that neighborhood.

Maybe we could strike a deal with Norcross that they buy the church and we throw in 500 dilapidated houses for free. Start clearing out the East Side and get it ready for the second coming of Buffalo, something that will occur no earlier than 2090.

Colin - 1) Because we can't take care of it.

2) Probably true, but they no longer care about this church, either does the surrounding community.

3) Probably true, but so has popular sentiment, the continual push towards political correctness. As far as building in the suburbs, that is where the population is. You won't fault Wegman's for building near the people, then why fault the church for moving to where the communities moved. BTW, I believe that the Diocese closed many churches in the suburbs and exurbs as well, the difference is that the suburban community can reuse the churches while the City cannot.

Here is an idea.

Move a wealthy suburban congregation to this building and ask the southern congregation to use their 3 Millions $$ for charitable work. This way the local congregation can work to aid this distressed Buffalo neighborhood as Jesus would have liked and the southern congregation can use their money to do good rather than the harm this concept will do to Buffalo.

Buildings define and belong to the community and should only be moved as a last resort. This area is not desolate or beyond redevelopement possibilities. The future is in the city and losing our best will prove shortsighted. The Catholic Diocese has a poor record in disposing of its surplus real estate and could do much more to protect and market these vacant churches. Rarely agree with Atwater but he is right, it will probably cost too much to move.

Bini,

Oh yes you will run out. The supply is not endless. It is extremely sad to see how little regard Buffalo and WNY has for its very precious and finite heritage.

"You won't fault Wegman's for building near the people, then why fault the church for moving to where the communities moved."

This quote really gets to the heart of the matter. Wegmans and the Catholic Church are radically different organizations. Wegmans is a bottom line business, while the church makes all sorts of claims to be a servant of the people, to operate according to a higher moral code, etc.

"These people have a need, and we can serve that need."

Here's an honest question -- why should I care about the needs of people in Georgia? I'm a partisan of Buffalo and WNY. I don't give a hoot about Georgia. Let them pray in their lousy prefab churches.

The Williamsville Mill is turning out to be a problem- (lack of suitable re-use, restoration costs keeps growing beyond budget), maybe they could put it on e-bay. And then there is the Roycroft Campus, not enough money to restore and maintain this complex, maybe Atlanta could buy it and move it.

Steel says: Here is an idea.

Move a wealthy suburban congregation to this building and ask the southern congregation to use their 3 Millions $$ for charitable work. This way the local congregation can work to aid this distressed Buffalo neighborhood as Jesus would have liked and the southern congregation can use their money to do good rather than the harm this concept will do to Buffalo.

Here's an idea, let's get the expatriates like STEEL to move back from places like Chicago and Georgia. It must be great to preach about people moving to the suburbs when you fled to Chicago.

Steel says: Here is an idea.

Move a wealthy suburban congregation to this building and ask the southern congregation to use their 3 Millions $$ for charitable work. This way the local congregation can work to aid this distressed Buffalo neighborhood as Jesus would have liked and the southern congregation can use their money to do good rather than the harm this concept will do to Buffalo.

Here's an idea, let's get the expatriates like STEEL to move back from places like Chicago and Georgia. It must be great to preach about people moving to the suburbs when you fled to Chicago.

"Hey lifer, that reminds the Coit house on Virginia is up for sale on Ebay right now- No Shit- copy and paste the link below. B.R.L You should put your 1830's Federal on Ebay . http://cgi.ebay.com/3-Bed-2-5-Bath-Virginia-Buffalo-NY-14201_W0QQitemZ160289526242QQcmdZViewItem?hash=item160289526242&_trkparms=39%3A1|66%3A2|65%3A3|240%3A1318&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14"

I t would be a great deal for Buffalo...0nly if the owner (no name used) WENT WITH IT!

BRA - Sanctuary lofts are located in a developing and growing city. This church is located in the slums of Buffalo. Not near the slums, but pretty much ground zero of one of the most crime ridden and depressed area of Buffalo.

Quick poll: How many BRO readers live in the neighborhood immediately surrounding this church? Let's go out 10 blocks in any direction... anyone?

Ask yourself why you do not live in this area, and then take that thought and apply it to 10,000 other people who won't live here. Do you really think that there is a chance for this "gem" to survive in BUffalo?

Colin - Do you attend church services? Do you understand the purpose, mission, and vocation of the church or are you just throwing stones from your holier than though pulpit?

BRA - I disagree... that section of Denver had turned the corner from slum to vacant wasteland a few years before this project was introduced. I would liken it to the New York Avenue / Rte 50 townhouse project in DC that took place a few years ago. This area was similar to Black Rock and areas around Grant Street when it started, while other areas of Denver that are analogous to the East Side still remain poor and depressed.

I haven't lived there for a few years, but I was working there when the Sanctuary Lofts and similar projects were started. The entire city went through a rebuilding and re-branding exercise, they moved the airport, closed the air force base, and dropped in many high-end residential and commercial projects, mostly subsidized by Colorado and the City of Denver.

One thing about Denver is there is only so much real estate that they are able to develop, the rest is either National Park, State Park, Reservation, or uninhabitable. So there is a greater need for gentrification than what we have in our dwindling city.

If the church stays where it is, as probably will happen but who knows, nobody seems to be disputing that it will become a dilapidated eye sore that adds more blight around Bailey/Delavan. The arguments people are making against it moving are centered on dislike for other things the diocese does or on abstract emotional feelings about the importance of architecture even if it sits empty, falls apart, and creates hazards for neighbors.

Yeah a vacant lot isn't ideal, but a vacant lot is better than what will probably happen. There's simply no sensible purpose for a building that large in that spot.

If the Georgians really want it, they should be encouraged to move it and then thanked if they do.

It is a shame that Buffalo can't or won't maintain this church, but it would be a travesty to let this church disintegrate rather than let others have it.

It is a true shame that City of Buffalo has failed the people of Buffalo time and time again. People like PaulBuffalo and STEEL, who are passionate about Buffalo, must tell us what we should and should not do from more successful cities in California and Illinois. It is a shame that we are so broke that we cannot even attempt to save a building like this, because we know that we are on a continuous downhill slide with more people leaving the area than moving to it.

We are losing the most attractive and inspiring facets of this city, because we lost the lifeblood of our population long ago. The city cannot even compete with the surrounding area, how is it going to compete with cities like Atlanta, LA, Chicago, and Boston. It can't, and as a result companies continue to move and build in these cities while Buffalo wastes away a little more each day.

It is sad that this church is a visible sign of how bankrupt we truly our as a city, spiritually and economically. I hate to say it, but I think that Buffalo may be too far gone, and we may be trying to do too little too late to really make a difference for our future.

Whynot,

It is not a matter of Buffalo being too broke. It is a matter of Buffalo (meaning WNY in general) having set bad priorities. The Catholic Church has built new buildings within the last few years while it closes these amazing treasures. WNY expands outward placing a large percentage of its resources into bloated government and wasteful infrastructure as its population declines.

When you do not take pride in the things that make you unique you are ultimately doomed to mediocrity. At times it seems Buffalo takes pride in it ability to reach mediocrity.

BRA> Sanctuary Lofts is not your typical loft project or a common reuse for an historic church building. With smashed windows, a fire damaged interior and a deteriorating red sandstone exterior, the former Methodist Episcopal Church in Denver’s Uptown area was once one of the largest churches in the city.

Uptown is a mostly-gentrified neighborhood adjacent to downtown Denver, in a metropolitan region where every few years, an old neighborhood is "discovered" and gentrified in less than a decade.

In Buffalo, there isn't the same market forced driving gentrification (growing population of young professionals that embrace city life, general economic prosperity, pricey residential real estate that forces young homebuyers to seek out marginal but livable neighborhoods where they can afford to boy, and so on). In Buffalo, you don't have people paying $500K for North Buffalo four-squares, and a growing market of young prospective homeowners getting into bidding wars over $200K "bargains" in Lackawanna and Kaisertown.

Delavan-Bailey isn't a quaint but unappreciated neighborhood filled with charming architectural treasures. It's a formerly working-class to lower-middle-class German and Italian neighborhood filled with small Buffalo bungalows that have been mostly vinyl-sided and Formstone-veneered beyond recognition, which for the past 15 years has faced severe socioeconomic upheaval; racial transition, influx of low-income households, increases in gang activity, an exodus of most of its family-owned businesses, and so on. Whenever Channel 4 starts off a newscast with a murder, odds are very good the story will include the words "Delavan Avenue",

With so many great affordable, livable neighborhoods in the Buffalo area, why would a young professional choose to live in Delavan-Bailey over Allentown, Elmwood Village, North Buffalo, Kenmore, or Parkside?

Steel - Well spoken from a man who contributes to this mediocrity by abandoning the area. Thanks from all of us in Buffalo to all of you in Chicago!

BTW, the new builds for the catholic church were primarily targeted at areas that do not have churches of sufficient size to fit the congregation (refer to Amherst) or where the congregations are no longer large enough to support the dwindling congregations. Perhaps if more people stayed in the area we wouldn't have as much of a problem with dwindling populations in WNY.

whynot, are we related? You could be one of the all time greats....keep up the good work!

I like reading your posts....a true realist.