Buffalo Rising Online

Anna Please.....If this were to actually come true, the people in this hick town would scream "NO EXPANSION" it'll take away the original line, or some other backwards BS that comes to thier little minds. Just look at Bass Pro/Waterfront Development, Elmwood Hotel, and so on. As soon as something great comes along, people are against it. The best bet in this town (after years of studying the people here) THEY DON'T LIKE CHANGE, LEAVE EVERYTHING AS IS, LET IT ALL ROT AWAY AND LET THEM COMPLAIN..That's how they like it.

And wasn't this line suppost to go into Amherst and Tonawanda? That was the original plan in 1984. But, of course the yuppies in those areas don't want it in thier backyards.

Wow, great posts DG4! So positive and insightful. But aren't 'yuppies' by definition urban dwellers? Therefore you need to study a little more and find another verbal slam for suburban residents. Unfortunatley that's not the only idiotic thing in your post.

Will this have a stop directly at the new proposed casino? If not, sounds like a waste.

Oh god, I hope they use an existing rail bed! I smell more lawsuits!

Also, why does it need to be a loop? Seems kinda shortsighted.

why would those of us against the big subsidized store on the waterfront be against the metro rail extension? it's a good idea. and, for those who trash the metrorail, it's not perfect but it's not bad either. It's on time, reasonably priced, and great to quickly get downtown w/ stations w/in a 10 minute walk of Elmwoood village & Allentown. the other poster had a good point though: why hasn't development happened by the core stops?

one step at a time, lets build one mile, look back and go see, that wasn't so bad, so maybe we can get it pushed into other areas. Unfortunately the Elmwood, Hertel area would require a whole new line = much more money. This expansion is dirt cheap in comparison and would help to link areas to the east of downtown eventually. After this segment there are two options, continue it along to the southtowns, or continue it to the larkin district and airport all of which have existing rail lines going to them. The map depicts that it will be on street for this loop, but it does connect right with existing rail lines for "future expansion"

great ideas, I just wish it didn't take the casino to actually spur its development.

Young Urban Professional = Yuppie

I am not sure that expansion of the light rail is cost effective... but if they do go ahead with such a plan, I hope planners remember Main Street and plan in a way that will encourage growth, not stifle it.

13 million for 1.2 miles is extremely cheap for rapid transit. There certainly isn't any urgent need for this expansion, but it certainly would be a positive development for the area. Any expansion of Metro Rail will happen in baby steps, so I welcome this proposal.

Great idea for area. think of potential use...attend dinner and theater in Entertainment district then hop on train and head down to cobblestone and enjoy Irish pub...and soon harbor development outlets and casino. could be nice mix use of Districts.

Stop cobblestone, you're making too much sense! ;-)

Hodgepodge- I realize that not everyone has the same reasons fro being against Bass Pro. I'm specifically referring to the mentality of Tielman and his ilk to litigate if something doesn't fit their vision.

obviously my humor is lost on you people... :p

Oh yeah, and Jerkface is right. Yuppies, by definition, cannot live in the suburbs. Maybe you're thinking of Suburbanites and DINKs (dual income no kids). Although a Dink may be a Yuppie, not all yuppies are DINKs .

The last part of the article sheds light on something that has left Buffalo in...suspended animation for way too long.

Part of the problem is the city is dictated by suburban mindsets. NFTA caved in to complaints about expanding the Metro Rail to Amherst, because whiny suburbanites were afraid of crime leaking into their neighborhoods. Meanwhile, we're stuck with a light rail which, in 20 years, drove many businesses away from downtown Main Street, and left those attending UB to battle chronic traffic problems by both car and bus.

Aside from lawsuits stalling both the casino AND Bass Pro, like parasites, something also needs to be done about the Main Place Mall. The Galleria and the Boulevard can easily expand 12-fold for their communities, but the one mall we have is just sitting there rotting. It's sickening.

If they are going to propose expanding to the Cobblestone District, I think it would be a mistake to not look at expanding a little more to the Larkin@Exchange. You are talking about thousands of people in that building that are removed from the rest of downtown.

Did you guys know that the original street car tracks are still intact underneath the street on Elmwood and Delaware so new tracks wouldn't have to be put down to resurrect those lines. The above ground street car system works well in Toronto so there's no reason it can't work well here in conjuction with the metro rail. Also, the tracks are in place already to be used for a Southtowns connector. We could model that connector after the metro north trains in NYC and then create a hub for people to switch trains at the DL&W. If we wanted to go east we also already have tracks that run out through the east side to Cheektowaga and we have central terminal. The infrastructure exists, the will to act doesn't.

I think extending to the airport is a lot more important than any of the other proposals. Hoss makes and excellent point that a flight to NYC via JetBlue costs less than $50 but a taxi ride to the airport is half that cost itself. In a fantasy land a lines on Elmwood and Hertel would be sweet. But I guess any expansion is a start.

gman, EXACTLY! i spent a whole semester studying old rail lines in Buffalo, the only thing stopping expansion of above ground Light Rail is willpower to get the money. The fact it is above ground reduces the costs exponentially, and the fact that the land isn't begin used and is vacant is another huge cost savings. We would only have to build the infrastructure which usually isn't the most costly part of these systems as long as you don't create overly dramatic stations.

If the train drove away all the businesses from Mai n treet how come main street has been one of the only streets in downtown with constant businesses for the last 30 years? Pearl, Franklin, Washington,Michigan, Genesee, Niagara, Ellicott, Swan, Seneca have nothing compared Main Street. Chippewa is new because it spawned up after the rail. Court, Elmwood and Delaware are probably the only streets that have more happening on them than Main Street but they are also the funnels of the richest neighborhoods into downtown so they had other positives working in their favor.

I think people like to use the Train as a scapegoat for other regional problems. The rest of downtown died much harder and faster than Main Street and I tend to believe that the train and the Pedestrian Mall helped to keep some semblance of life left so that we have a spine to building from today.

coolrobc -- i was called a yuppie once by a punkster when i lived down in the east village. was teed-off until I heard that he had more money than me. anyway, can you really say that your "vision" of the waterfront includes a subsidized large sporting goods store and Indian-run casino?

enough with the sarcasm and guff . ... The inner harbor plan is evolving and hopefully they are not in any stage to shut people out. I do disagree with people that think it must look exactly like the original(a certain respect to the traditional), however i do agree that the current plan lacks cohesion in certain areas. The metro rail extension will give more distinction and open up a large space for possible redevelopment.

I think it would definitely help bring people and businesses to the area. I am all for it!

I like the idea and I hope it sparks the idea from the past of expanding the rail to not only through downtown but the north and southtowns and, maybe, even the falls!! WOW!

I know I'm getting ahead of myself...but...it doesn't hurt TOO MUCH to dream!

First, I think any extension of the metro rail is a great idea. Hoss: did you ever hear of the 204 bus? It is an express bus (well, actually a van) that runs from sdowntown directly to the airport for $1.50!!! Also, GMAN and SBROF: the state of Virginia wants/plans to expand the metro to Dulles Airport at a cost of FOUR BILLION DOLLARS and they "expect" the Fed Govt to contribute 900 MILLION (approx ONE BILLION) towards the project. Imagine what could be done with the Buffalo system for ONE BILLION DOLLARS. Contact your Fed reps and make it an issue. Share the pie.

Jefferson - Good points! One thing to note about the Dulles line. This project has been delayed for more than a decade due to lawsuits, environmental impact surveys, protests, etc. The same thing is true of the Orange line extension to Tyson's Corner (people complained that this will just increase suburban sprawl and blight in DC) and the western extension of the VRE. The expansion of Rte 50 from 2 lanes to 4 lanes from the Beltway to the Bridges is also on hold due to lawsuits and civil protests, same with the western by-pass of I-95 (connects I-70 to I-95 without hitting the Metro DC area). The list goes on.

This type of lawsuit is not limited to Buffalo, it happens in all areas where there is a group of concerned citizens who want to have their voices and agendas heard. I am not a fan of the overly litigious society; I am just saying that it is a common practice everywhere.

Hodgepodge, Considering the lack of progress on developing anything in that area, a subsidy is the only way anything's going to happen down there any time soon. That section an almost perfect location for this type of store. I'd rather see buildings built out to the shoreline than a park in that location.

Where did I say anything about the casino? I'm not in favor of that.

... but that's not what this thread is about. It's about the Light Rail expansion. I can't see the value of making it a loop. Anyone have an idea why they want to make a loop?

Fudgeworth-I'm not advocating pork - my point is that other metro areas are getting more than their fair share of it. Actually I'd like to see more people from around the country contact their Fed reps and complain about the 900 million.

I said it before - We need a CZAR.

Well if we're extending the metro rail into the Cobblestone district because of development then we should also extend down deleware, elmwood, ub, and buff state... because theres just as much if not more development action in those areas and more ppl to use an extended metro rail... (i.e. - Bashars tower, ub expansion, dulski building, richardson area.. on and on)..

Does anyone know why the nfta put the moratorium ( excuse the spelling).. on llrt expansion?? Aside from angry suburbanites?

Oo and Jefferson has got it right.... follow the leader when it comes to pork barell transportation spending, if we don't take it someone else will!!

Transportation costs tons of money, Light Rail or Highways all cost tens of millions of dollars per mile. It is a matter of spending our money on more than a single vulnerable system. Example, during the October storm I was the only person that turned in a paper on time that Friday / Saturday cause everyone else in the class was snowed in.

I'd like to know why the NFTA isn't in Albany fighting for $$$$ to get our system extended? MTA in NYC did it last year and now they are expanding a few lines right in Manhattan.

I'm glad our leaders are finally recognizing the potential of light rail expansion. I think the cobblestone district is an ideal place to expand because it would be so easy and cheap (compared to most light rail construction). There is so much potential for development in the cobblestone district (other than that parcel of land wasted on a casino); some of that development could include a new convention center or football stadium. Ideally the light rail will someday expand to the airport and UB's north campus, and maybe even the southtowns. In the meantime, this is a good way to get our feet wet in terms of expanding our system.

Also the reason stations like Lasalle didn't create the anticipated development nearby is that parking lots were built right next to the stations. Parking lots mean that people don't have to live near the stations in order to use them, and having the lots right next to the stations means that if people do park and ride, they don't walk past any of the commercial district when going from the station to their cars, or vice versa. Lets not make the same mistake should there be any expansion in the near or distant future.

Lastly, many of the posters agree that Elmwood would benefit from light rail. I would suggest that we consider opening a streetcar line along Elmwood, similar to the streetcar in Portland. The Elmwood strip is too long for shoppers and residents to access all parts of it by foot. The streetcar could connect Buff State to downtown, and would allow patrons to park in one location and have access to the entire strip.

throw out the loop. i can maybe see and extension of the single line going down south park ave but the rest of it is a waste of time and money. the width of the loop is only two blocks, you could walk that in a minute

"NFTA caved in to complaints about expanding the Metro Rail to Amherst, because whiny suburbanites were afraid of crime leaking into their neighborhoods."

Have you considered that maybe the suburbs didn't want to add the cost of the metro rail to their tax base?

smh,

Are you saying that "Inner Harbor" development exacerbates poverty? If so, how?

smh, do you ever go down Main St. in OUR Downtown? If so, you'd see alot of poor people up and down the street begging for money, some with cups or just thier hand out. We do live in a poor community. It's the reality. Anyone who ever travels outside to bigger cities will see the difference in how people act and dress, the retail stores, and so on.

Oh yeah, my point. Baltimore was poor before their Harbor Development, just like we would. Maby our East Side is better than theirs, but we wont see a big turn around in the poverty level here till we see better paying jobs and developments , ALL of the city's neighborhoods. An over all development plan (Think Queen City Hub) that would actually go through instead of "the talks", "the studies" "the law suits"....We've been doing "Studies" in this town for DECADES , you'd think we would know what we're doing by now.

smh,

So you're saying that the waterfront should lay fallow and any money that was going to be used to develop it should be given to the poor.

I think the return on Perry is stupid because the airport expansion is along South Division all the way to Van Renssalier....which would put four light rail lines within blocks of either side of the I90.....talk about stupid.

Expand along South Park past Louisiana....past Hamburg ... expand all the way to Van Renssalier

if you want a return...think about a return along Ohio or Furhman Boulevard which could tap into the Inner/Outer Harbor area.

While I am encouraged....I am also discouraged because the extensions to UB Amherst, the Airport and Niagara Falls all have millions of riders and a huge economic impact to our economy.....and they should be given equal if not greater support.

ok here is a more brilliant idea

instead of the return loop, spend the money on an extension all the way down South Park to Van Rensallier with a Park & Ride (there is plenty of empty land for a parknRide in this area)

now here are the advantages 1) it allows people from South Buffalo and Southtowns to take the light rail to Baseball and Hockey games 2) it allows people from South Buffalo and the Southtowns who work downtown to not have to bring their car downtown and save on the parking by using a parknride facility 3) the light rail is only a few blocks from the Larkin District and an expanding Larkin District can have shuttles to South Park for anyone either going downtown or using a ParkNride 4) it allows downtown development to have less parking garages...instead of a large parking garage for Bass Pro they could have smaller parking garages at various ParkNRide stations in South Buffalo, Tonawanda, Amherst and the Airport

SORRY TO SAY THIS BUT BUFFALOS LIGHT RAIL IS A GOLDEN GOOSE THAT ISNT BEING ALLOWED TO LAY ANY GOLDEN EGGS.

AS IN EVERY OTHER CITY....OFFICE PARKS SHOULD BE SPROUTING UP AROUND EVERY LIGHT RAIL STATION AND ESPECIALLY AROUND LIGHT RAIL STATIONS WITH PARKING FACILITIES BUT HERE IN BUFFALO WE HAVE OUR COLLECTIVE HEADS SO FAR UP OUR ARSES THAT IM SUPRISED EVERYTIME A DEVELOPER SAYS THEIR GOING TO BUILD A MULTI-STORY URBAN OFFICE PARK IN ONE OF OUR URBAN RESIDENTIAL NEIGHBORHOODS. ITS JUST NOT HAPPENING! HOWEVER IT SHOULD!

I really don't think it is so bad to be highly critical of the some of us dress. We do have plenty of fat slobs walking around this city--that might or might not be part of Buffalo's charm--i'm not sure.

I think its more assinine that the editors of this website would even use that above image.

I've seen a few months ago some new comedy show where a guy told his friend "NO CUTE GIRLS ARE FROM BUFFALO!"...So true, lol. Nothing but Butch Women in this town, no wonder we have so many un-happy guys here (I'm single and LEAVING next week). Can't wait to see women who LOOK like women again.

Sara_k,

I hope you enjoy yourself elsewhere. Otherwise I'm sure you'll just continue to manufacture your own misery and drama. Your positive attitude, maturity and ability to engage in an intelligent dialog speaks volumes of your finest qualities.

Best Wishes, Rob

Wait, what was this thread about? Oh yeah, extending the Light Rail...

come on coolrobc don't take this stuff so seriously it's only a stupid blog. I love Buffalo and the culture of understatement but sometimes it gets a little frustrating especially when you compare it to culture in much larger sort of international cities.

Also, I think this topic is more interesting than light rail anyways.

New Point! Only the poor and sloppy go Downtown!

LOL, no worries davvid, I'm actually trying to make a joke, they really need to add the sarcasm font to this site...obviously, my humor is lot on you heathens ;-)

I think WalterT1 is on to something though, I met my lovely wife in Buffalo, but she's not *from* Buffalo...

lot should be lost.

stupid lack of edit feature! (shakes fist at monitor)

GETTING BACK TO TOPIC

think the return on Perry is stupid because the airport expansion is along South Division all the way to Van Renssalier....which would put four light rail lines within blocks of either side of the I90.....talk about stupid. Expand along South Park past Louisiana....past Hamburg ... expand all the way to Van Renssalier if you want a return...think about a return along Ohio or Furhman Boulevard which could tap into the Inner/Outer Harbor area. While I am encouraged....I am also discouraged because the extensions to UB Amherst, the Airport and Niagara Falls all have millions of riders and a huge economic impact to our economy.....and they should be given equal if not greater support.

ok here is a more brilliant idea instead of the return loop, spend the money on an extension all the way down South Park to Van Rensallier with a Park & Ride (there is plenty of empty land for a parknRide in this area) now here are the advantages 1) it allows people from South Buffalo and Southtowns to take the light rail to Baseball and Hockey games 2) it allows people from South Buffalo and the Southtowns who work downtown to not have to bring their car downtown and save on the parking by using a parknride facility 3) the light rail is only a few blocks from the Larkin District and an expanding Larkin District can have shuttles to South Park for anyone either going downtown or using a ParkNride 4) it allows downtown development to have less parking garages...instead of a large parking garage for Bass Pro they could have smaller parking garages at various ParkNRide stations in South Buffalo, Tonawanda, Amherst and the Airport SORRY TO SAY THIS BUT BUFFALOS LIGHT RAIL IS A GOLDEN GOOSE THAT ISNT BEING ALLOWED TO LAY ANY GOLDEN EGGS. AS IN EVERY OTHER CITY....OFFICE PARKS SHOULD BE SPROUTING UP AROUND EVERY LIGHT RAIL STATION AND ESPECIALLY AROUND LIGHT RAIL STATIONS WITH PARKING FACILITIES BUT HERE IN BUFFALO WE HAVE OUR COLLECTIVE HEADS SO FAR UP OUR ARSES THAT IM SUPRISED EVERYTIME A DEVELOPER SAYS THEIR GOING TO BUILD A MULTI-STORY URBAN OFFICE PARK IN ONE OF OUR URBAN RESIDENTIAL NEIGHBORHOODS. ITS JUST NOT HAPPENING! HOWEVER IT SHOULD!

yawn

Is this an actual option, or just an idea??? Why is everyone so worked up over something that may never happen?

What's the point in expanding a system in an area that is LOSING it's Population?

The reason for the HALFASS projects are because of all the BACKWARDS Groups in this town trying to STOP Any new developments from EVER happening in this town.