Light Rail Extension to be Studied
A citizens’ group is determined to make a case for extending Metro Rail through the Cobblestone District. The Citizens Regional Transit Corporation (CRTC) is raising funds to retain a consultant to look at the feasibility, benefits and costs of a 1.2 mile extension to the Main Street light rail line.
As proposed by the CRTC, the Cobblestone District extension of Metro Rail would be a 1.2 mile loop, traveling east on South Park Avenue, north on Louisiana Street and west on Perry Street.
Map by George Thomas Apfel
CRTC’s goal is to raise $10,000 to fund a feasibility study by Stone Consulting & Design, Inc., a firm that specializes in planning public transit expansions. A citizen’s group undertaking a feasibility study for a mass transit project is highly unusual.
“Because the NFTA is a government agency, they are somewhat limited in their ability to move quickly on planning items. Doing this project via private or non-profit initiative significantly shortens the timeframe for beginning the planning process," says Seth Triggs, CRTC Vice President. “For example, this obviates the need to submit three bids from three different consultants which would almost certainly bring the cost up significantly. In essence, we are priming the pump and gathering interest and energy to get this project moving.”
Stone Consulting will visit Buffalo to obtain input from stakeholders, determine if other route locations should be included in the study, recommend a final route, identify issues involved in connecting with the existing Metro Rail, provide rider estimates, determine construction costs, provide an operating budget, identify funding sources, and present a final report. Once begun, the study is expected to take 90 days to complete.
“We have made significant progress on our fundraising drive, having now received well over 40 percent of our goal to begin the feasibility study,” says Triggs.
The Buffalo City Council is on record supporting the extension. Councilmember Brian Davis, who sponsored the resolution, said the extension could help spur development in the area which is seeing increased investment but is still mostly surface parking lots. Bass Pro, Canalside, and the casino represent hundreds of millions of dollars of proposed or underway development.
“Expanding to the Cobblestone district will put a new focus out there,” Davis said. “To be able to move folks into that neighborhood will create the potential for new development.”
Light rail has not proven to be an effective economic development tool in Buffalo however. Other questions remain. Is the NFTA even willing to look at the expansion issue? Will casino patrons have any interest in activities outside the gambling complex and use light rail for access? Is a loop the way to go or is a spur that could be extended to the Larkin District, the airport or southtowns a better option? Will the public have any say where the local share of casino revenues are spent and is light rail expansion a funding priority for a community with many pressing needs? The CRTC is anxious to start seeking answers.
Get connected: CRTC email.
Entry image by Matt Shaver
Comment Options
STEEL
The extension is a good idea. The loop is dumb. It just creates a redundant length of track.
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sally
1) Unless the NFTA is on board and sposoring the study it is meaningless
2) Why loop it having tracks from the north and south portion of the loop only 500 feet apart? Very wasteful just extend it to Louisianna Street and have the trains swith track and head in the other direction as they currently do at the foot of Main Street. You would serve the exact same people and cut the project costs in half.
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NBJOHN
My opinion has always been the utilization of the main rail system for the "main route"
Above ground trolley system (Toronto) for anything branching off of it. Less expensive
"Main route" mentioned above being the current route - Possible extension to the Airport and South Campus - just brainstorming
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mpitman
While they're at it, they should revisit the feasibility of extending the other end to the airport and the UB North campus. Package it as one project.
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gaustad
We have a perfect example of the Casino already creating other kinds of progress. Even though the loop doesn't really "extend" the light rail, it is a start and will encourage people to ride the train.
If the Senecas were smart, they would add to the 333 million investment and pay for the light rail to extend to their door step. It is a win, win for the casino and Buffalo.
If a loop were added or another line, I believe it would spur more growth downtown and in this general area.
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gaustad
There is no real reason to extend rail to Amherst Campus. There are buses that will drop you right at South Campus station.. It is a 10 minute ride
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nyc
The light rail to UB north campus extension is the only extension i feel is viable given the growth projected for UB. Students more then residents are most likely to use metro rail as they often do not have cars. A Park and Ride could be constructed in Amherst but I think metrorail should become a part of our academic system linking campuses and students to downtown job, entertainment, and retail opportunites. It would make UB more attractive to prospective students.
This extension while nice would not offer enough and I don't understand why is extends so far east past the casino. The other issue is the cars are not articulated to make tight radius turns like the boston light rail cars. Would this be a problem on a city street?
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Geomike
I think extending the Metro Rail can only improve it's utility. If it's not going to be extended, then we should assess whether the money put into running it justifies the revenue and value to the community. I would say we should extend it's servie footprint, rather than step into the stone age of transportation - even Dallas, TX has added light rail...... I suggest altering the CRTC's suggestion to be a spur extending all the way to the Larkin Building (no need for a redundant loop of track) or make that a loop all the way to the airport and back downtown. A spur to the Airport or UB would be my #1 suggestion, and one to the east or west would tie the city together better. Ultimately the project should aim to improve mass stransit access for city residents & communters and reduce the # of cars and buses on the streets. And let's take advantage of our history and make these improvements look like the historic and much more aesthetically pleasing street cars or trolleys we used to have, as others have suggested. Buffalo's not an oldy-moldy town, but do the white and blue striped NFTA metro rail designs really convey the image of a modern city with great historic roots that we want people to see?
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al-alo
i do believe the study will examine the exact right of way, and that the proposed route is nothing more than a proposal.
im not entirely a big fan of omni directional loops, perhaps a new terminus (and shops) would be another option. it will be interesting to see what they come up with.
Sadly, a small loop or extention is very limited, and looses any economy of scale that a north campus extension (or whatever) could provide.
what strikes me, is that the proposal doesnt seem to ask if the vehicles are appropriate to the funtion. nor does it ask, what potential expansion would provide the best cost/benifit ratio. As NBJohn mentions, street running trolleys are less expensive to build than the Light Rail vehicles (LRV) that the NFTA uses. And as NBJ mentions, a system of streetcars looping through downtown would provide better connections to the current system.
additionally, 1.5 miles could nearly bring light rail to south buffalo. straighten that and add another 3 miles, and you are all the way to ridge road down south park. build it as a streetcar system as opposed to using the LRVs, you might even save enough to make it price/benifit competitive.
i would support almost any expansion, but without asking basic questions, its a little cart before the horse.
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reflip
This loop idea is ponderous. It is less than 3/4 of a mile from Main St. to Louisiana Street, and then to loop it back around? Why?
It seems like such a waste, especially given the idea that extending the existing rail to UB North Campus and the Southtowns is a real, viable, "good" idea. Buffalo should look at Minneapolis, where public transit connects the Mall of America to the south with the downtown "Warehouse District" at the northern terminus, including stops at UMN and the Metrodome. That is, all places where lots of people want to go. I rode it this summer, it was absolutely packed at rush hour and there was no Twins game going on that night, either. It's simply follows a single line (north/south only) and takes people where they want to go.
Since we are stuck with UB North campus for better or worse, the only way to correct that mistake is to connect the students with the city via light rail extension. When I was a kid I could figure out how to take the LIRR/MTA into the city (Manhattan or Shea Stadium mostly) without getting lost or falling into the gap. If I could figure that out, I have no doubt that college students on North Campus could "navigate" a train that only goes in a straight line with no changes. Not too intimidating, and a great way to get out of the dorm on a Saturday.
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mjs
extend a line east to the airport, with stops at galleria, broadway filmore, and building on what's going on in the larkin district. this may help to make a renovation of the central terminal feasible. extending the line north to connect to the amherst campus, i never went to an event at ub amherst do to it's inaccessibility. finally, extending the line from the airport north and westward from downtown to niagara falls. this is a no brainer. 10+ million tourists a year. the NFTA is suspect for not applying for funding of LRRT extensions given it's "success". Only in Buffalo have they turned an positive element such as accessibility and turned it in to a negative. take a look at "successful" cities around the world and the element of accessibility is inherent in all of them.
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al-alo
the other questions would be about construction and operating costs. What kind of system would be the least expensive to construct, at least out of local dollars (fed/state dollars are a different matter)?
and while part of the construction costs would be a one time local hit, long term operating costs are a differnt matter. much of that would be borne locally. what route or routes would provide the most cost effective to maintain? what kind of system would be the most cost effective to purchase new equipment?
the most important is how many cars could any proposed allignment get off the roads? the less cars on the road, the less associated costs of parking/road maintenance/polution. while all of those may be difficult to quantify, they should be considered.
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DumpsterKid
This is just like the marginally successful people mover that exists in Detroit. Except it doesn't really cover important areas of the city. I can tell you right now that the NFTA does not care, they have no money, the only way for them to expand would be to get a huge boost in Federal funds, that is most of their budget.
However this would be successful if gas went up to $6 a gallon, there are studies that explain that people will change their driving habits at $6 in todays market, $10 and people start changing where they live. Perhaps the best hope for the city of Buffalo is higher gas prices, and only then will you see any light rail extension.
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sbrof
Totally agree... extend YES Loop... NO... let trains do what trains do best. move forward and back along the same rail lines. It would cut the costs by 50% and would actually mean this would be easier to implement. No one complains about the current dead end at HSBC. Let the last stop become Casino Station.
plus a simple extension doesn't preclude a further extension to the Larkin District / CT / airport in the future. A loop would only make an further extensions complicated and expensive.
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jetsetter
Just thinking out loud... If the NFTA were to work more closely with UB, it would be cool to see more university investment near the rail stations. It would be great to see more student apartments, restaurants and the stores that students want all within close walking distance to the stations...like LaSalle, Humboldt or Delavan/Caniusius College. Seeing that there is going to be more investment at the Medical Campus, you have major university centers at either end of the underground line. A T.O.D. (transit-oriented development) style development at any of the stations would be great for a student or faculty member who has a class at the Medical Campus, then wants to use the Library at South Campus (or whatever). If successful, this could generate thousands of additional riders. This idea might be especially attractive to students who are from other cities where public transit is strong - that would be a great selling point for UB (and Canisius I suppose). While I realize there is a whole science to determining its viability, its just a thought. As far as the CRTC's idea, it may not be the best use for rail but its certainly a step in the right direction.
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brokeleg
The loop is dumb. Trolleys on the other hand... now thars a good idear. It will be appropriate for our Disneyland Canal Village. Ther should be trolleys downtown and if somehow the area starts making money off of things like tourism and renewable energy, I say we do something bold with our metro system and our transportation infrastructure. Lets close the Kensington and the Scajaquada, and extend the subway along their paths. Rebuild the Humboldt Parkway with an actual park,and reconnect Delaware Park. It would be like the big dig except we dug it up 40 years ago so ideally it wouldnt be as costly. Any engineers out there let me know if I'm wrong. Lay the tracks, create the tunnel, put soil, grass and trees over it. And more bike lanes damnit. Lets embrace the new green frontier.
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WCPerspective
Another factor to consider- competition for mass transit dollars on the federal level is fierce. A Buffalo extension would struggle to compete with cities with serious traffic problems, poor air quality and strong population growth. Thus any Buffalo extension is likely to be funded by State and local dollars. Casino revenues, Power Authority settlement dollars, Tax Increment Financing, a tax tacked on to properties along the line to pay for construction and operation, etc. are ways to fund a Cobblestone extension. Unless the Senecas are feeling overly generous- $10-$13 million is what the CRTC says a loop is likely to cost. So, perhaps $7 million for a stub extension?
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sbrof
haha 10 minute bus ride from north to south..
from someone who has to take it daily to go to and from work I can tell you that when i get to south off the train from downtown, it still takes me at least another 25 - 30 minutes to get to my office. The trip if you include walking between the station and the bus stop plus the ride is at least 20 minutes.
I can go 6 miles in the train in about 12 minutes. It takes twice at long to make the 3 mile skip to North. That is why few people go downtown from north and why the metro extension to north is probably the best most economical route NFTA could do.
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MJWorthington
Biggest Bang for the Limited Bucks would be moving the end to the casino and the other end to North Campus.
1) Turn North Campus from an isolated commuter campus into a single campus tied right into downtown and canisius, and delaware park, and medical hub etc. Provide a park and ride closer to the homes of Amherst Residents.
2)Going to Casino, hopefully those that park there would be enticed to take the train to somthing else instead of just leaving the ramp and going home. But I doubt it.
Looping it is a waste of track.
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galaxyjay
This would be a great idea if it did not Loop - I don't get the loop...if your going to do it why not go all out?
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sbrof
sbrof's guide to a mass transit mecca
plus the discussion on that board will cover many of the topics people will discuss here.
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Tesla
Word up jay.
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Dasein
The loop doesn't seem to make much sense - I'd much rather see the train extended to the Larkin District. It would be great to tie that area in to the train system. Still, I'll take even a modest extenion for now so long as it is designed in such a way that it doesn't prevent future extensions should the means and need arise.
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benfranklin
Wouldn't this incremental improvement make it easier for all of you to justify the 'larger' improvements most of you would like to see? We seem to be always looking for the silver bullet. Why not put the gun down, accept the fact the Casino will be built, and get on board with this small extension. It's easier to make the argument the rail should be extended to UB north (casino workers can get to campus...or worse (students can get to a craps table)) or extend to the airport (cheap shuttle to any city could get you on a train to a casino). Push those facts, and get the Senecas to foot the bill for the study (as Gaustad pointed out earlier...this would be in their interest).
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Spaulding97
Extend it to NF, connect each Casino and watch the progress. Hell, while Im dreaming why not build a new Bills stadium In NF too, best of both worlds.
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RonR
First off, if a loop is what the CRTC came up with, that is a challenge. Steel made a great point in a small section is needed. A straight line to Louisiana is only .72 miles.
Also, a loop would take up land that COULD go to a new downtown Bills Stadium on the Perry Project site. No offense to people who take action without pay, but did they think this through? Are they the best voice to represent the public?
If they want to find funding, how about charging for the FREE section today. A dollar a fare can go a long way. Or maybe run later hours. It is a joke that the last train leaves downtown at 12pm but bars are open to 4am and restaurants are open past 12. If they really wanted the thing to be used, they would offer limited service from 12am to 6am. Say one inbound train and outbound train every hour on the half hour at 12:30, 1:30, 2:30, 3:30, 4:30 and 5:30. This would keep some drunks off the road but more importantly, would allow people who live off the Metro line to work in the entertainment industry downtown and use the metro without hassle.
When I lived near UB South and worked on Chippewa, I was able to take the Metro into work and either found a ride or took a cab back home. I had a car but wanted to be safe in case I was drinking at work. :) For some this is not an option.
Even setting up a temporary measure to have a taxi line from the University Station to UB or having the UB bus line from North to South run off the same 25 hour schedule COULD allow the 20k students to go downtown and have reliable transportation..day and night and wee hours in the am after Jim's Steak Out. :)
Doing something like that would have minimal cost and a HUGE impact IMO.
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sbrof
RonR, You can take the 8 Main bus until about 1 or 1:30 in each direction.
I totally agree that one train an hour is about all you would need to create a much more functional system for the bar going crowd. No one needs 5 minute head times at 4am but if people out and about knew that at 1, then 2 then 3 there was a train they could easily plan accordingly to catch it. And if not.. well you spend another hour drinking and get the next one :p The fear of not having a ride home is what drives most people to get into their car and drive down knowing full well they shouldn't be driving home at the end.
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DXMontagnes
The real appeal of such an extension is getting the ball rolling for future expansions, most notably from here to the Southtowns. If you look on the map included here, you can see the old DL&W right-of-way that parallels Miami Street. That route heads southeast through the 1st ward before crossing over the Buffalo River on to Lackawanna, Blasdel, Hamburg and Orchard Park. Even a few blocks progress in that direction could build momentum.
I'm undecided if a loop would need to go all the way to Louisianna Street, but perhaps a more truncated loop through the Cobblestone District and then leading to South Park and the DL&W r-o-w might make more sense. Loops are very common in light rail and streetcar routes in downtown areas. Meanwhile, a stop at Louisianna & Miami at the r-o-w could likely serve the casino as effectively as a loop.
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Joshua
The best thing to expand the Metro Rail would be to just continue down So. Park Ave to Fulton St. This would be a good start to a So. Buffalo link. It really never made much sense to me why the subway or rail only focused on North Buffalo and not on South Buffalo. I can understand why there was an effort to try to link Downtown with UB Amherst, but why was So. Buffalo excluded? I also guess West Buffalo and East Buffalo were not going to get any part of it either.
Basically, the loop should not exist, a little bit of walking is OK. Just continue the rail on So. Park, that's it.
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Joshua
Also - the rail and subway should run until 3 or 4 AM. This would support more of the businesses that may miss out if there was no train going. This would probably turn into more profit for the Metro and NFTA to look at expanding.
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tonyarmani
If they are going to do this, it should be done the right way. City Hall should become a large underground hub, a slimmed down Grand Central. Then, like spokes on a bike, the underground subway will run up and down Buffalo's main streets (Delaware, Elmwood, Genesee) and extending to UB, Airport, South Park. Having underground rail running near the majority of the inner ring Buffalolians and going as far as UB North will expand ridership significantly and decrease the need for cars downtown. Businesses will be able to take advantage of more riders and increased foot traffic, and everyone will benefit. With our surplus the city will be able to start floating muni bonds, and actually get buyers due to a better rating.
All in all, the city will prosper when underground rail is implemented...
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al-alo
tonyarmani,
in general underground facilities can be very expensive. with the surplus rail r.o.w.'s currently available and potential for street running, i couldnt imagine too many locations where long runs of subways would be cost effective - although not impossible.
if any subterranean facilities are deemed cost effective, i hope they use cut and cover as opposed to the tunneling operation that ran up the costs of the main street line.
for that matter, above grade usages are also feasable - although also costly. the DLW right of way, for example, used this method.
as to the closing. many other municipalities transit systems shut down overnight. buses could be used as a "last call special", or instead of staying open, metro rail could OPEN earlier - say 415.
of course that leads to the question of public safety. is it a good idea to sequester a bunch of drunks on a bus or train? it sounds like it could be a lot of trouble.
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RonR
Tony- Way to big of a project. Like WCP said, there are other areas that actually have traffic. People think adding 5 minutes to a commute from OP to NT is horrible. Try talking to someone who live in Dulles who has a 90min commute to go 25 miles. FWIW, Dulles did not get funding for an extension. No way in hell Buffalo gets Federal funding for a large scale project off the bat.
Now, if you were to expand the Metro in small sections, say a mile at a time and showed an increase in riders per mile, an increase in development and all of the desired effects, I could see funding coming down the pipe for our kids.
I think HS rail from Albany to Buffalo via Rochester will happen before a massive network is created in Buffalo on light rail or subway.
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yeahright
The casino should pay for an extension direct to the airport so they can skip downtown all together and by heading up the existing rail lines they can go right though the broadway fillmore neighborhoods , thats where their money is coming from. why not make the funnel bigger and easier? Who wants people form out of town messing up our urban landscape, causing traffic jams and increasing population? Keep it small Jethro.
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Auburner
Question: Which "Einstein" Mayor was responsible for this light rail abortion? Sedita or Makowski? I have forgotten...
It seems they put in a subway just to say Buffalo has a subway.
Also, if you expand this disaster that will mean either more subway cars (expense goes up) or longer waits (convenience goes down). I for one am in favor of electric busses or like Pittsburgh manditory flex fuel busses.
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InformedOne
I am not sure that this privately funded study would satisfy the SEQRA requirements which would necessitated for this project to come to fruition. To imply that the NFTA is slow in its planning process may be a misstatement.All government agencies or entities undertaking a project which includes "discretionary decisions" by a governmental authority requires adherence to a rigid SEQRA process to ensure concerns about the projects impact on the environment are taken into consideration.
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nyc
UB North is the only area in WNY with significant projected growth, a population that would ride the train within walking distance, and the only line that I think would stimulate growth in the existing metrorail corridor. Build to UB and make the existing line as great as possible, it has the potential with the massive student population and we should utilize existing assets and commited growth areas rather than chasing dreams of a world class rail network going every which way. The proposed loop would not offer enough to justify its cost unless funded by the Senecas - yeah right.
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NBJOHN
My opinion has always been the utilization of the main rail system for the "main route"
Above ground trolley system (Toronto) for anything branching off of it. Less expensive
"Main route" mentioned above being the current route - Possible extension to the Airport and North Campus (not south as I mistakenly mentioned earlier) - just brainstorming
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Downtownjunkie
While I applaud CRTC's taking the initiative on their own time to study this LR extension I feel as though we have lost sight at the big picture. We in this region like to crack jokes and lament at the waste of money spent on our subway to nowhere while pondering up ideas for possible extensions that will never happen when in actuality the existing subway is just one of many assets our city and region should be proud about. Where is the public outcry at the state authority in charge of this mismanaged system. Does anyone besides myself see the opportunity in our existing system. Does anyone besides myself ask themselves why doesn't the NFTA get out of the Subway business and stick to what there good at the airport business. Their gross mismanagment of the current system is why we don't see the many benefits promised 20 yrs ago. Just take a look at any of the subway stations from Allen to Lasalle they are not only unattractive to look at but make riders feel scared for there life when riding a train at any hour. Now I may be exaggerating a bit but really why doesnt the NFTA disband its police force and hire security guards for every station to enforce loitering laws and panhandling laws and make there precence known as to assure riders of their security when using the system. On another note I totally agree with Jetsetters post about tying in TOD at every station. Imagine every subway station drawing students, professors and city residents alike to utilize new student housing, internet computer labs coffee shops etc. There is more than enough land available for these type of developments. Look at the Utica station there is a huge parking lot next door used for NFTA vehicles...WHAT A JOKE! or the Best station where there is ugly public art there currently where a new building would be more suitable. Yes i love the idea of expansing the system but i just wish the citizens of this area would demand form our state leaders that we fix the mistakes and alleviate the problems of our current line and realize its full potential. We are sitting on a goldmine people if the NFTA would just wake up.
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Downtownjunkie
And on another note the metro rails ridiculous weekend hours are just another reminder of the NFTA's ignorance toward this community.
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Downtownjunkie
Or should i say incompetence. Whens the last time this authority has been audited???
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SLEEPL8
This will link the Casino to Chippewa/Main St. helping to prevent the isolation of entertainment that some fear. It will help integrate the Casino and he rest of downtown. I think it is a good idea. I am sure the NFTA can approve it and get it done by 3025.
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chris69
Yet another example of the complete lunacy, idiocy and utter stupidity of the average Buffalonian and the Buffalo leadership!
There are what 6-8 million visitors now to the Seneca Niagara Casino in Niagara Falls There are what 6 million travelers now at the Buffalo Niagara International Airport UB is experiencing 40% plus growth at 3 campuses and the downtown, South Campus, Amherst Campus, CrossPoint Park, Lockport route is experiencing 30% growth The Larkin District is one of the biggest areas of gentrification and development on the eastside.
YET WHERE IS THE FOCUS OF THE CRTC AND THE LIGHT RAIL CHAMPIONS: THE COBBLESTONE DISTRICT!
THE PRESSURE NEEDS TO BE ON THE ABOVE CORRIDORS WHERE THE REAL VIABILITY AND THE REAL ENGINES OF OUR URBAN, LOCAL AND REGIONAL GROWTH ARE!
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SLEEPL8
It will connect the Perry Projects to North Buffalo....
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galaxyjay
Chris - Why don't u call up the CRTC and tell them how you feel..then they will probably respond with telling you that they could careless about the suburbs and are more worried about the innercity. But why would you even read the article? Why not just respond with your completely biased retort...
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chris_h_23
I think that an extended rail system would be good. Do I thinkn that it should be a loop in that area? No. I think it should connect to the other areas of the city and the airport. I also feel that the Seneca's should pay for the entire thing since it would most benefit them and they have more money than god. The city has enough financial problems and the Seneca's make money hand over foot with their current casino and will with the new casino. The Seneca's need to step up and make this happen, not the taxpayers.
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LarkinLot
More ugly overhead wires and tacky blue and green stations? Please No!
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ntdrew
At least its some movement on the idea of expanding the system, it would be nice to have the seneca's pay for the expansion since chris_h_23 is rite by saying it would benefit them most. Also where did this crazy loop idea come into play?
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ntdrew
Also, there is no need for a station every 100 feet!!
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magnum
I think this is the first post I've read were the majority of comments are on the same page. Summary: Extension, yes; Loop, no; Funded by, Senecas. Since we did all the thnking here, can we get some free bus passes?
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pbraun
Any light rail extension should integrate highly used transit routes as well as attractions such as the casino. Let's face it, if people are going to the casino, they can take the train to the special events station at the end and walk.
If the line isn't extending to residential regions it's not going to sustain itself financially. If the Senecas want to help fund the project, let them build a tourist train. I think it would be a foolish addition to a region that will likely be a fare- free zone for the NFTA.
If you want to encourage growth downtown, consider how attractive some of the housing options could be downtown if UB students could relax on the train to read on a direct shot to UB north. The stampede is a pain in the but as it is now, linking UB to downtown could be great PR for a campus that wants to not only grow, but attract grow out of Amherst.
I commend the effort to organize the funds for this type of project by CRTA
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tonyarmani
al - good comments...if only we could get the funds necessary to do it. Here in NYC underground is great (except when you're trying to make a call) and never have to worry about the weather. if only the train could be automated, and then it could run 24/7. Then again, are there really people waiting to go to cobblestone at 5am on a wednesday?
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Eisen
If you do a little research you will find that at one time that Western New York had a fairly extensive light rail (ended 1930s) and inter-urban trolley service system (ended 1950s). I think it’s a little silly that we here in Western New York had a better public transportation system over a 100 years ago than we do today. It actually looks exactly like the stuff sbrofs linked above.
http://www.buffalohistoryworks.com/photograph/others.htm
If you go to any picture it’s hard not to spot a trolley, train or trolley tracks, or train in those photos.
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GDC
Eisen is very on point, also at one time, We actually DID Have train service from Downtown Buffalo to Niagara Falls way back then. But with the auto craze, we tore the system apart and kept only buses, (ewww) maby we finally learned our leason, or not? Let's get the rail back people.
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RisingDamp666
Get the federal government to spend 4 or 5 billion on a comprehensive rail and trolley network for all of Buffalo. Let it be our little "bridge to nowhere". Earmark it in legislation to provide hot meals to the elderly. Why not? What's that kind of money? A nanosecond in Iraq?
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Joshua
GDC - I agree with you... Buses...eww. They are large and obtrusive, they take up the whole road. NFTA should have invested in expanding the light rail or subway not spend money on buses.
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BAEagen
I have to agree with the general feelings found here.....I don't understand the loop idea, but agree the extension could be a benefit. I also think extending the subway to the airport, UB, Galleria, southtowns, and NF are all things that should have already been in the works. Imagine flying into Buffalo, hoping the subway and riding straight into downtown. The NFTA really needs to get something figured out and soon. Ridership is up already, so no telling how much it would increase if the whole system actually made some sort of connected sense.
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al-alo
not to turn the subject away from the loop - but here i go anyway.
my feeling has always been that NF-Buffalo-Depew/Airport communter rail route would likely be relatively inexpensive, use existing stations and right of way, and serve the greatest potential number of riders.
i dont know that any kind of real value analysis has ever been done for any route in the last 25 years. and that is really the heart of the matter. save the money on the loop study and do a region wide study to compare alternatives - including no build, and lets really see whats the best use of dollars.
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al-alo
not to turn the subject away from the loop - but here i go anyway.
my feeling has always been that NF-Buffalo-Depew/Airport communter rail route would likely be relatively inexpensive, use existing stations and right of way, and serve the greatest potential number of riders.
i dont know that any kind of real value analysis has ever been done for any route in the last 25 years. and that is really the heart of the matter. save the money on the loop study and do a region wide study to compare alternatives - including no build, and lets really see whats the best use of dollars.
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sbrof
al-alo I totally agree, the rights of way are there, and underutilized. All we need to do is lay some new track and catenaries. We have the trains, and other infrastructure. I bet we could continue the LR from downtown to the airport in about 20 - 30 million / mile; dirt cheap when it comes to high capacity rail systems.
Most of the money for light rail goes into land acquisition and startup issues. We need a couple more cars, and some track.. Maybe even get new cars that store energy so maybe we don't even need catenaries out of the downtown section. They Charge while in the subway, store the energy and power themselves via batteries for the leg out to the airport and back. Maybe it’s feasible, maybe its not. But since the NFTA is getting all their train cars overhauled it makes sense to make some base technological upgrades at the same time.
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al-alo
sbrof,
id even go so far as to suggest a value analysis should include vehicle type - light rail, heavy rail, diesel, electric, etc . . .
so i might suggest that there is off the shelf self propelled equipment that does not require an overhead catenary and the associated infastructure. im not saying that it shouldnt be an alternative, but every option should be examined for our unique circumstance.
id bet a traditional commuter type train could be running btwn NF-Blo-Depew in a year, if there was any leadership.
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sbrof
True, but a large part of the social benefits of LR is its environmental aspects. I wouldn't suggest putting diesel engines into these train cars because while they still would be 100 times more efficient than your car it is still the wrong direction to move in.
Also there is a larger segment to expanding the rail It improves access to jobs for those who don't have them. We all know about the poverty situation on the East side. How do you expect someone who can't afford a car to get to a decent paying job or even a poorly paying job. There are always help wanted signs and assume a segment of the impoverished population has the necessary skills it should be everyones responsibility to make sure that they people can get the jobs they deserve. Because as we found out ove the past 40years of declining neighborhoods and increasing poverty the way we connect people with jobs now (cars) isn't working.
Plus if these people get jobs they start paying taxes and we all have fewer people on welfare. I think that is something anyone left or right can get behind. Growing up at Fillmore and Delavan without parents or money to buy a car leaves you very few options for employment.
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Martin
try what real city's do and extend the rail to the airport.
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SLEEPL8
I agree that the rail should, without a doubt, be extended to the airport.
Does Amherst want the rail extension to UB North as it would provide easy access for "city folks" to their "safe" town?...just a thought
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vgs
Huge waste of energy debating this. This Citizens Group has been funding these studies since the rail was built. Sally is right , its meaningless
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sbrof
No one said we need to put in a station between north and south... lets put the line in, direct it so that it "could" connect to the mall / NF boulevard but leave the station out of the construction. It would create the link between north and downtown and if any of us pesky city folk go out there to cause trouble it wont count against Amherst cause it will happen on campus.
And everyone knows once you get on campus walking off of it is practically impossible. And where you can it is about as inconvenient as you could imagine.
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al-alo
sbrof,
id be interested in seeing how much each type of rail vehicle actually polutes. overhead electric (or other means) has to be generated somewhere. obviously, the falls does provide our region with a lot of clean electric power. but a fair amount does come from other poluting sources.
would a clean burning diesel - electric or hybrid potentially produce a competitive amount of polution? ida know.
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sbrof
True, but with Steel Winds up and running, the NF power plant is going to restructure how and who they give their power too. (we need to push for a larger local share of our own natural resource here) It makes perfect sense that our regional transit system should get its power from any of these local and clean energy assets.
I get 100% of my electricity from NYS Energy Cooperative (based in Buffalo) and my electricity prices have been going down ever since I switched. I agree that with proper leadership we can get clean, local and sustainable energy for us and our transit system. If we actually capitalized on such resources, more electric buses, used it generate hydrogen etc.. we wouldn't only be able to decommission one of our coal plants but we could probably get some solid world press for a real regionally minded approach to energy needs.
Remember 50% of the electricity that NF sends to NYC is lost in transmission and still reaches them cheaper then their local supply. Every second of every day we are wasting a vital resource that should make buffalo and western ny and southern ontario one of the most sustainable places to live on the planet. The truth is we have everything we need, except the will power to put the pieces together.
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BuffaloNY
I dont understand the need for a loop. It would require half the amount of track if they just had the line stop at the casino. I feel the NFTA expansion should shoot from the arena to the casino. From the Casino, the rail should run along the Amtrak rail bed out to the Larkin District & Central Terminal. From the Central Terminal, the line could continue out to the Galleria Mall and further on to the Airport. It is entirely plausable to extend the light rail out to the Airport without going below ground. That would make the cost significantly lower then a 3 mile underground extension to UB North. An expansion to the Airport would connect the Airport, Cheektowaga residents, and a significant portion of the East Side to Downtown...
Hell if I were the Seneca's I would pay for the extension of the rail to the Casino site. Think of all the additional revenue they would generate if there was a train stop on their front door. Face it, Americans are lazy, people are less likely to go to the Casino if they have to walk half a mile, then if they can take the train directly there.
I hope this is not another Buffalo Pipe Dream. Let's get it done NFTA.
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MJWorthington
Even today if there are potholes big enough opened up you can still see old rails in the main roads. I used to see the old trolley rails in the road all the time while growing up by Filmore/Clinton in the 80's.
the airport through DT onto UB north would be a great linear route.
Are their current incentives to invest along the current line? It should have been part of the project. Say 3 blocks in each direction east/west of the line with the heaviest for right along Main st. Get the people in place to actually us