Buffalo Rising Online

ABSOLUTELY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Transplant> I think you're jumping the gun about Darien Lake completely shutting down. While Six Flags may sell off its stake in the park, I would not suprised to see another major amusement park operator like Paramount or Cedar Fair (which owns Cedar Point & Geauga Lake) take over operations. While I like the idea of an outer harbor concert venue, i think this is a case of the media taking a story about Darien Lake posssibly being sold and turning it into a gloom & doom scenario.

Transplant, can you give a step-by-step. If property is purchased and the the ampitheatre is built, who in Buff is poised to operate it? Sounds like a good idea to me.

Great idea! And there's no shortage of open space down there. Anyone in City Hall listening - er - reading?

Rue B, Your absolutely right. Darien Lake did just fine before it became a Six Flags and if its sold it will probably do just fine. Just because its might be sold doesnt mean its going to be demolished but it will mean that the new owner will either raise prices or cut costs by operating less shows closing some high cost rides at which the park will find its happy medium of profitability and do just fine.

Its not just an asset for Buffalo but Rochester too. Ive seen people come all the way from Jamestown, Ithaca and Syracuse to go to Darien Lake and thats not going to change anytime soon.

I think Buffalo's money is better spent with a new convention and conference center off South Park plus it would extend the Light Rail further into South Buffalo and give them a great Park&Ride alternative to I90 and Route5/skyway.

DT Buff, here you go:

There are two potential operators as I see it.

1. Funtime Presents. Artie and Donnie are seasoned concert industry vets, who have a lot of history in the market.

2. Live Nation. They currently operate the PAC at Darien Lake and every other similar venue in the country. While I am sure many would like to keep it open, Live Nation is the only way to go in terms of guaranteeing a heavy amount of shows. Live Nation is the promoter responsible for the entire tours of The Rolling Stones, U2, Barbara Streisand, Sting, amongst many others. Every show at Darien Lake is produced by them.

RUE B:

You many be correct that I am jumping the gun on the park closing, but the capacity there is 21,800. There may be three shows this summer that will sell out the venue.

Quite simply, these venues are too big and the entire industry is moving away from this size, towards the smaller ampitheater's. So while the park may remain open, I'd bet at least 85% of the shows listed above, would be better suited to play in a smaller ampitheater downtown.

I'd actually like to see some plans for a an outdoor amphitheatre combined with a new stadium for the Bills on the waterfront (Orchard Park lease is up in a few years) -- these two venues can work "in concert together" (pun intended) with common parking, concessions, etc. and really add some critical mass to the waterfront...Buffalo's only sizeable outdoor music venue shouldn't be 45 minutes away from the city, and it's football stadium shouldn't be 25 minutes away...they both belong in the city, along with the other sports and entertainment facilities.

Rayzor--

A good idea, and I too like the idea of a city stadium for the Bills. But, these are two incredibly different operations, and it mostly has to do with an event that fraws 8,000 people versus an event that draws 10 times that amount. A stadium is a huge undertaking, and parking certainly is an issue with it.

People can take the train down to the waterfront and walk to a concert venue, but football=tailgating and you can't tailgate without cars.

Rayzor's right. So is Jefferson. Is anyone at City Hall listening?

I always thought it was ridiculous that tour tshirts say "Buffalo" on the back and you have to drive 45 minutes to see the show.

I think that a nice sized concert venu would be nice along the waterfront. I would like to see it designed with the flavor of Millenium Park in Chicago... Not that I like the Gehry design.. because it is not my favorite but I like that it is an open park for the city to use, hang out with or nap in when not being used for concerts. To build something that sits empty unless being used, or that has large walls and fences is not the best use for that land.

Sbrof:

I LOVE Millenium Park!! Unfortunately, it is not realistic for this type of project. There needs to be both assigned and lawn seating, and there need to be visual barricades from all sides. Otherwise, you end up with what happened at Rockin at the Knox: a small crowd inside, and a large crowd peering through the holes in the fencing.

But, that doesn't mean that it needs to take up a massive amount of space, which there does seem to be a plethora of.

We are talking about something that is nearly one third the size of the PAC at Darien Lake.

There is plenty of room for parks along the waterfront, something of which I am a HUGE proponent of. But don't the potental benefits of this sort of venture override adding more parkland?

What would it take for Funtime or Live Nation to pull this of? Free land, not taxes, bank support -Greater Buffalo Savings Bank, support from City Hall?

DT Bruff:

Here is the damned if you do, damned if you don't part.

For the city to make any serious money off this project, it needs to control the ancilary revenue sources (parking, concessions.) Live Nation generally does not go into a situation where they do not have at least a majority ownership of these profit centers. Anyone in the concert industry will tell you, that you lose much more often than you win.

So if the city builds it, Live Nation may not be interested because it is a venue with no other revenue sources other than ticket sales, which most times do not cover the expenses of putting on a show of this magnitude.

If Live Nation builds it, it will be a major boom to the culture of the city and the downtown ampitheater will be inundated with an influx of shows in the summertime, but the city will not realize much if any cash out of the situation.

So culture and a better quality of life or money?

The wild card comes with Funtime as they are locals. However, there is a good chance that many of the tours will just skip over town or remain at Darien Lake with 25% of the capacity sold because Live Nation has all the tours.

I think in a perfect situation, the city provides the land dirt cheap, and offers serious tax support. In return they get a share of the ancilary revnues and a lump sum every year from Live Nation.

As for bank support, Live Nation had 516 million in sales last year, they don't need a bank.

Agree with Millenium Park being too ambitious/unrealistic right now..however, the Northly Island Pavilion would be a good model:

http://www.chicagoparkdistrict.com/index.cfm/fuseaction/parks.detail/object_id/5235D96E-2F1C-4C63-80B7-C9E7C589E0BA.cfm

As much as I disliked Daley's illegal land seizure to create the venue, something like this could work well here..along with a nearby football stadium -- we would need to justify infrastructure/access improvements, and a 7,500 seat venue would be a hard sell -- but a 7,500 seat and 75,000 seat venue would demand it....

Also, Transplant, as a recent transplant myself from a larger city, I understand the rationale for not needing parking at this potential venue, but this is Buffalo, where 80% of the market lives outside the city and will not take a train to the waterfront - without parking and decent access for vehicles, it would fail -- I don't like the fact that Buffalo is anti-mass transit, but we need to be realistic as well

Rayzor:

Northerly Island and the Gibson Ampitheater in LA are what I am thinking of for here as well.

I am all for building a stadium downtown, the more happening there, the better, but I don't think that they exclusive of one another.

The fact of the matter is, that 80% do live outside the city boundries, but are people going to pass up the chance to go see their favorite band because they have to park at Chippewa or Tupper and take a train a few blocks?

The city has more than enough lots, let them walk or take the train for a minute, where it is free anyway.

If the city does this, and then puts 7500 parking spaces as well on the waterfront, I'll puke.

If the Darien lake did close (which it wont) I don't see how that means the amphitheater goes dark also. I mean You don't need a theme park to attract concert goers? Its usually the other way around at least from my perspective. I have only gone to seen concerts there due to the band and have entertained the idea of going early to check out the park but always wind up just tailgating. However I like the idea of a smaller amphitheater on the waterfront such as the the one in Toronto (not the Molson amphitheater the other smaller one, I believe in Harbor place? I think that's what its called.) I think you could get away with both. If Darien lake's amphitheater ever did close you could expand on the smaller amphitheater that you have on the waterfront. Buffalo for sure should have one and owned by the city just for "Buffalo rocks the harbor " and other events it would fit in perfectly tp have a smaller open air amphitheater.

Why not have the TITS people run it. They seem to know what they are doing

We wouldn't need a 7,500 space surface lot if we actually built underground parking like Chicago has at Millenium Park and Musuem of Science & Industry...I can't figure out why we don't have any underground lots here (other than the added costs)

http://www.nfta.com/outer_harbor_development.asp

There is a plan in place to have a theatre on the waterfront...as to the size...I believe it is 4000-5000 people...

If this plan goes forward, it may be a good idea to lobby a slightly larger venue....

STEEL:

You may want to spell out that acronym as TITS had me scratching my head for a minute. I'm pretty sure Funtimes produces that event so see above in regards to Funtime vs. Live Nation

The master plan improvements for LaSalle Park already includes a large ampitheatre. on the waterfront.

It just needs to be implemented.

Other than a few small road improvements at the park, that plan seems to be just collecting dust somewhere. (following ancient buffalo tradition for development plans)

i'm pretty sure funtime runs TATS

I agree, LaSalle Park is seriously underused. I would much rather go to a concert there than Darien Lake. Although I'm more of a fan of all lawn seating instead of the setup at Darien Lake.

Well heres the link to the six flags article http://investors.sixflags.com/phoenix.zhtml?c=61629&p=irol-newsArticle&ID=875468&highlight=

So you can read it for yourself

Well the ampitheater is a nice idea but the darien lake facility is to serve a major scope of audience. Do you think people from Rochester want to drive to Buffalo for a show? No. Then acts will have to choose between the two markets. And we'll lose out. Or have to go to Rochester which is twice as far.

And for the Stadium Idea, waaaaaaaay to late. After the recent MILLIONS spent on the Ralph Wilson fix ups. Do we and NYS want to pay 500 -600 million for a new stadium? That's used sparingly. They already killed the Westside Stadium for the Jets.

Jonathon-

You bring up a good and very valid point regarding the location of Darien Lake and its ability to hit both markets.

But, what makes you think shows are going to go to Rochester instead of Buffalo. Buffalo still has a metro area of over one million and if the building has good sound and cheap rent, people from Ra-cha-cha will just have to drive.

As for the stadium, I agree with you also. The only way a stadium gets built downtown is if Galisano buys the team and finances the thing himself. Something, I would not put past him.

i agree with Transplant's response to Jonathon. folks from Rocha will go the extra 30mins into Buffalo to see a show if they were budgeting the first 45 in the first place to get to Darien Lake. I'd bet the number of people who draw the line that Darien Lake is close enough but Buffalo is too far is a small one.

I like the idea of an amphitheatre on the lake, and I agree with the intented size/scope. I just think it and Darien Lake's PAC are mutually exclusive and cater to different tours.

Hey, gang, let's put on a show! Entertainment is fine, and entertainment venues are fine, but they don't add to the economy - they are a way to spend what's been earned. An amphitheater would be impractical and a waste of land in Buffalo.

See all the development around the last, new entertainment venue, the hockey arena? None. Nothing but asphalt deserts. Same for "Thursday in the Square" - it has done nothing for downtown Buffalo, except turn Lafayette Square into mud & make access to the library difficult, on the only evening it's open.

When the unemployment rate in our poorest neighborhoods is below 5%, talk to us about amphitheaters.

And a spokeman for Six Flags was just on the radio; they are NOT closing Darien Lake.

Good Dr.

It's not a money issue, it's a quality of life issue.

How does this sound for a tourist brocheure:

"Stay in downtown Buffalo and enjoy some fine restaurantrs. Than go rent a car and drive 40 minutes to Six Flags Darien Lake, where you will watch your favorite bands play in half empty venues with screaming roller coasters in the background."

vs.

"Stay in downtown Buffalo. Enjoy some fine restaurants and then take free metro-rail down to the cobblestone district and take in a show at _____ Ampitheater as the sun sets over Lake Erie and the Niagara River.

Find investors, buy the land, build the thing. But don't expect to have land given for free, or tax breaks, or a subsidy. The NFTA has such an amphitheater in their plans, btw , and its value is the same.

Quality of life begins with a decent income, not the occasional 'concert' by touring acts.

This is the same sort of fantasy as 3million customers at Bass Pro, which would require 685 people entering the store EVERY HOUR, 12 hours per day, every day including Christmas.

Darien Lake is a terrible place for concerts. I would love to see it go, really. Why on earth do we have to drive out to farm country to see big name acts play? We NEED a large amphitheatre on the Buffalo waterfront, it only makes sense. I don't know why it's not there already. Is the town of Darien benefiting from the massive amount of traffic they endure in the summer? Why not send the crowd to our city where people can do more than see a concert and watch rows of corn fly by the window. Buffalo nightlife is vibrant and exciting, our restaurants are exceptional. Have the concerts in Buffalo, not an amusement park in the cornfields. Why not do like Germany and incorporate the grain mills as a unique giant wind block.

This issue has been on my mind for a while. I've always thought that we needed an outdoor venue in Buffalo to compete with Darien Lake, what a perfect opportunity.

yeah it makes sense and Thursday In the Square not doing anything for buffalo? ARE YOU KIDDING ME? The amount attitudes that this event has changed about Buffalo for people, in, outside and no where near Buffalo is more than any money dumped into some advertising campaign. I have brought friends to these events from Tonawanda to NYC and all of them loved it and it helped to change their perception of Buffalo almost instantly. The monument, city hall as the backdrop, grabbing a beer outside on a beautiful sunny day listening to a good band. I think if you talked to any business owner you would realize that it does spin off customers.

It comes down to the design of the venue and the area around it whether or not it will spin business. Parking lots promote cars, the reason people in amherst wont take mass transit is because there is a parking lot everywhere they need to go. On the other hand very few people ever would think about parking close to TITS. Hundreds of people stop at South campus and take the train and if they drive downtown they certainly park and walk the rest of the way.

The arena has done nothing for Downtown because of the parking. The arena is not the problem the availability of cheap easy parking is what killed any spin off effects.

doktork, who you foolin'?

"Same for "Thursday in the Square" - it has done nothing for downtown Buffalo, except turn Lafayette Square into mud & make access to the library difficult, on the only evening it's open."

Gimme some a what UR smokin'. Yeah, let's cancel Thursday in the Square (or as Steel would say TITS) so you can get to your books easier.

Downtown has continued its decline into a ghost-town, during the past 20 years these noisefests have been held. Show some numbers which prove they are beneficial. Maybe we could just have free beer stands at every corner - that would attract people downtown, too.

Around 3pm today, I walked on Main from Court to Tupper ; I passed fewer than 20 people. Tell me again about "attitudes" changing?

Facts, people - show facts and numbers. You can't do it, because the numbers are all negative. The population is dropping, jobs going away, entire blocks abandoned, half of Buffalo's drinking water leaks out into the ground, etc etc .... and you think parties will help. Sorry to awaken you from the dream. Party on. Yahoo.

Wow DoktorK, I'm not one to criticize but I think your anti Thursday at the Square attitude may be off base. Sure not all of us like huge crowds, and no one likes to be stuck in the traffic that the shows generate, but the spin-off business is quite significant. Ask any Chippewa bar owner how their Thursday night crowd is affected by the hordes of people that jam the streets of downtown for the concert. Or the Fridays restaurant on Main Street. Many people make a day of it. I stop for a bite to eat on the way to the square, friends of mine go to bars afterwards, or spot, or for a hot dog at the place on Roosevelt Plaza. All the festivals including Thursday at the Square help to shed light on all the things the city has to offer, it gives people an occasion to visit the city and bring a friend. And as for downtown "continuing its decline into a ghost-town", you must be talking about some other city. More projects have been initiated and completed in the past 5 years than in the previous 30. and we are finally getting apartments in the downtown core. Surely you have driven through Buffalo and remarked at all the new construction and remodeling that is going on. People are moving out, but many more are moving in. If you demand numbers, how about the median income of the city is increasing, as people move out of poor neighborhoods others move into our beautiful neighborhoods, and they bring their money with them.

I don't think an outdoor ampitheater on the lakefront is a good idea either. Think Lake Effect. Much of the year it will be filled with snow. If it was a smaller one, well, ok. Like that Romanesque one (albeit rundown) one at Artpark. Or something that could be converted...now you would be talking. But... anything besides exclusive condos would be good. A big park, skateboard park (indoor/outdoor), a children's museum, a residential living area intermingled with small business (like the Elmwood village area)...if you could make that sort of pedestrian friendly thing happen would be great. Restaurants overlooking the water. And a beach would be nice, too!

DoktorK, in regards to the NFTA and their plans for an Amphitheater....

THE NFTA SHOULD STICK TO TRANSPORTATION NOT REAL ESTATE DEVELOPMENT!

I DONT KNOW WHAT INSANE LUNACY ALLOWS A TRANSPORTATION COMPANY TO HAVE NO LONG TERM PLANS FOR ITS LIGHT RAIL BUT 50 YEARS OF FAILED PLANS FOR THE PORT OF BUFFALO, LIGHT RAIL & ALL ITS OTHER RESPONSIBILITIES!

PS, I'm all for a beach on the waterfront. That's another key thing for this city. Why does a city which is ON the water have no beach within 5 miles. I'd like to see a beach around the old Bell Slip on the outer Harbor.

In regard to Thursdays-In-The-Square, Buffalo Place officials gather economic impact data every year on this event. They publish this information every Fall. When this year's lineup was announced, some of TITS' economic impact information from last year was included in the press release. Buffalo Place stated that every dollar that it spends on the concert series generates $6.38 in spending in downtown venues. The complete story is at this link:

http://buffalo.bizjournals.com/buffalo/stories/2006/05/29/story2.html

Buffalo Place also runs the "Rock The Harbor" concert events in the Erie Basin Marina. Economic impact data and logistics planning information from those events might give us a hint about the success of concerts at a lakeside ampitheatre.

The first time I was in Chicago and saw the downtown beach on Lake Michigan, my immediate thought was, "Why don't we have this in Buffalo?'. The cost of developing beaches along Lake Erie in Buffalo and the needed, accompanying infrastructure would be a great use of public tax dollars because it will not require a large exenditure and you will have a lot of private investment that will follow. I point to the apartments and condominiums on Lake Shore Drive in Chicago as exhibit A. Now, I'm not saying that Fuhrmann Boulevard will turn into Lake Shore Drive, but you'll see more movement from the private sector, and quickly, if we develop some beaches than we'll ever see in our lifetimes from the public bribe that state and local officials seem ready to give Bass Pro to create another ghost zone downtown. A caveat-it's very important that any housing developed as a result of these beaches be mixed income. Be it rent or condo selling price, those residential buildings on Lake Shore Drive in Chicago are very expensive.

I have had several out of towners request information on Relocatioin info for Buffalo. Most have never been here before or have had friends or family from here. People DO Want to move here and are moving here. Most are interested in the new lofts/condos in the downtown core (They are cheap and gorgeous). Thursday at the Square has been increasing in the last several years and does bring money to the area. Yes, people from the burbs, people who work near by stay, and even out of towners here for business or pleasure are told by their hotel about this FREE Concert in the city. Businesss near by do very well with this event as people do get hungry, thirsty or in the mood to see a film..Stay Downtown. A large out door theatre on the downtown waterfront would be an extra draw for more peple to come, stay, and discover more of this great city as they walk, drive, or take public tranist around.

I don't want to get off subject, but has anyone seen the new MySpace for Buffalo? It's very positive looking. Check it out at:

www.myspace.com/buffalonewyork

Hey Gio (GD), do I get credit for taking the city photo on your myspace page?

Send me a private message queenseyes, and I'll put your name under "Photograph by" on the site. I'll be adding my own photos as well this week, so watch out for improvements and more info added on.

Thanks, you can just say photo by queenseyes @ BRO if you like.

Back on topic for a minute...

Thanks for all the feedback. Yet, I have not seen a definitive reason why something like this couldn't or shouldn't be done.

I'll be as clear as I can. If Buffalo does not do this, someone else will and the bulk of the shows that go to Darien Lake will go elsewhere. It may still be in the metro area, but why not downtown?

I had no idea that the Buffalo Lakefront Development team had incorporated a theater into their plans, so it would be a very easy stretch for them to make this a bit bigger and make it the place where 80% of the shows that are going to Darien Lake would take place.

It's not even about adding businesses to downtown. A new venue certainly isn't going to attract a whole lot of new business, but it will help the businesses already in downtown. People from all over the region would come into downtown buffalo rather than Darien Center.

what would be a dream would be having Buffalo's version of Chicago's Navy Pier - basically recreation and exposition facilities with plenty of shops and restaurants all in one spot. check out www.navypier.com - ever since I visited Chicago ten years ago, I've wished Buffalo could do the same thing. PS: (its thursday AT the square...officially)

oh brother more people trying to sneak their free advertising in Buffalo Rising.

Hey DoktorK or lets simplify "dork"

"Facts, people - show facts and numbers"

Here you go Mr. or Mrs. ignorant here's your numbers "40,000 people" http://www.buffalonews.com/editorial/20060623/1006389.asp take note of the articles headline "traffic stopper" I am sure all 40,000.00 just went home after and did not spend a dime as they got all there "free beer at the square" sure! ......I hate to say it because I try not participate in the typical Buffalo negativity and mudslinging, but you are an extreme idiot!!!!!!!!!!! Oh, "noise fest" thats real positive! I will help raise your plane or bus fair so you can just leave this city your attidude is why we have the same problems over and over. Please Leave!

Thousands of people showing up for a free concert and shutting down the subway is detrimental to downtown, not beneficial. These events should be held in a different location, where there's enough space for attendees without blocking rapid transit tracks and trampling park grounds. The intelligence level of people standing in the way of trains must be a thing of wonderment.

The number 40,000 means nothing except that you cannot comprehend the question. The question isn't about how many bodies are concentrated in one spot, but how this affects the City. The fact that downtown streets can be closed at will indicates just how unimportant downtown has become.

As I said, party on, tell yourself this is something important, and don't worry that the population of Buffalo drops each day. As long as you're happy. You don't sound very happy, though. :(

Yahoo, KIP. That's not an exclamation; look it up in one of the books at the library, if you know how to do that. You might want to sober-up, first.

Darn it, I changed my mind about sending that, just as I clicked the Submit button. Feel free to delete, o Rising Gods !

I was raised in Darien Center, Graduate from CanisiusCollege and now live in Houston. I know six flags management and they are serious. They closed Astro World here in the fourth largest city in the country because the real estate was valuable ;200 acres went for $100,000,000. If they give up an entertainment market as big as Houston they will sell Darien in a heart beat. However Darien will survive but with new ownership; the business is solid because you support it. Best Regards