If Worcester Can Do It
When passenger rail service declined throughout the ‘50’s, ‘60’s and ‘70’s, the majority of America’s magnificent old train stations were rendered obsolete. In Buffalo, we know the dire consequences of this decline as experienced at our own magnificent Art Deco masterpiece, the Central Terminal. Cavernous train stations are a difficult fit for many adaptive reuses and due to the quality of the original materials and levels of decay experienced by many of these great stations, restoration can prove to be very costly.
Entering the picture last year with an intriguing solution is my friend, colleague and CTRC team member, Nick Kraus, who wrote his master thesis on the use of federal transportation funding sources such as SAFETEA-LU, which was the subject of a public meeting held Monday at Medaille College, as facilitated by Congressman Brian Higgins. In Nick’s thesis, he explains how Worcester, Massachusetts successfully used a combination of federal transportation funding sources (preceding SAFETEA-LU) to finance approximately 80% of the 2000 rehabilitation of their beautiful Beaux Arts Union Station from a decaying shell to an intermodal transportation facility.
As you can see by the before and after photos here, Union Station was in even worse condition than that of the Central Terminal. As Nick wrote in his thesis: “It is most important to note that the project was specified as a rehabilitation. Under the Secretary of the Interior’s Standards for the Treatment of Historic Properties there are four categories of treatment: preserving, rehabilitating, restoring and reconstructing.
If Union Station was restored, it would have been necessary to replicate every original feature on the building. Since the project was a rehabilitation, the design team had leeway in deciding what original features were replicated so long as the “character defining features” of the station were not adversely affected. Changes to the station can be seen in both the Main Hall and Rotunda.
In the Main Hall the terrazzo floor has been replaced with the same material but exhibiting a different pattern, and the Mahogany benches have been omitted to create an open gathering space. The Rotunda features a grand staircase leading to the railroad platform that was not originally extant. While these changes clearly do not replicate the historical design of the building, they cause no harm to the historic and architecturally significant features of the building and therefore are acceptable”.
The Worcester station has certainly regained its beauty and function. Imagine if the same process were to happen for the Central Terminal. It once housed not only a passenger rail station, but a bus company, taxi company and was originally designed to accommodate trolleys as well. The infrastructure for all that remains at the terminal to this day, but add to it the adaptability for light rail and high speed rail, and the need for public transportation and jobs in the Broadway Fillmore area and this idea is given more credence.
While there is certainly no argument that many of Buffalo’s infrastructural elements need immediate attention, the same case could be made that the Central Terminal is an infrastructure element that requires immediate attention. Without the CTRC acting as caretakers, the ultimate fate of the terminal would be a painfully slow demolition-by-neglect, with an estimated $20 million price tag for the City of Buffalo. To me, that is not a viable option, whereas this idea could be.
I am not proposing that all federal transportation funding allocated for the City of Buffalo be dedicated to the terminal, but as an additional incentive, and along with Empire Zone benefits and other historic tax credits, it makes the estimated $100 million rehabilitation more palatable to potential developers. So I ask myself, “if Worcester can do it, why can’t we?” I, for one, will be pitching the idea to our local and federal representatives.
Michael Miller is president of the Central Terminal Restoration Corporation.
Above image from vistadome.com
Comment Options
mmiller
Thank you for posting, Elena!
You can read Nick's entire thesis here:
http://repository.upenn.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1085&context=hp_theses
Report this
Irishkwh
The thing about the terminal is that its in the Ghetto. Plain and simple. If the Terminal was Downtown, where it should have been, it would be an office building for sure, No one wants to revamp that building with the view of the East Side. Just think about the people that would wander those streets asking for money or robbing your car. Is much as I would love to see the terminal converted to something of everyday use, until the east side is completely gutted, that building will remain empty.
Report this
RaChaCha
Mike, nothing could be more heartwarming to this love-at-first-sight Central Terminal fan than to see the president of the Central Terminal Restoration Corporation writing seriously and in earnest about the idea of returning rail service to that place where is so clearly belongs.
I did indeed follow your link to take a peek at a few of those Worcester before photos, but after a few just couldn't take it any more. It's to our everlasting shame as a nation that we allowed these monumental - and useful - pieces of our transportation infrastructure and heritage like Worcester, Central Terminal, the Claude Bragdon-designed station in My Fair City, Penn Station, etc. to be demolished or fall into such a heartbreaking state of decay. It's to Buffalo's everlasting credit that fine folks like Russ, you, Mark, Councilman Franczyk, and everyone have rallied to stabilize and celebrate the Terminal, and are now poised to take things to the next level.
BTW, I don't go along with the statement "if Worcester can do it, Buffalo can, too." More like, "if Worcester can do it, Buffalo can do it times two!" Or more.
Report this
mmiller
RaChaCha, thank you for the kind sentiments! We are definitely pushing to take the project to the next level. So far, I've gotten positive feedback from Sam Hoyt and from Sen. Clinton's office, who's checking into the availability of transportation appropriations for me. We've also handed Nick's thesis to Brian Higgins, and we anxiously await his feedback. It's bright and talented young people, like Nick, who will continue to come up with unique ways to save the terminal.
Irishkwh, let's remember the history of the neighborhood that surrounds the terminal: it was designed to be a starting point for immigrants. A lot of the houses need to come down, yes, but it's far from all of them. It has been estimated that 400 or more jobs would be generated out of the rehabilitation of the terminal, with more than that generated after it reopens. It has always been understood that what happens to the terminal happens to the neighborhood. We've seen so many positive things happen in the area since the terminal has been cared for.
Report this
btal
I grew up near Worcester. Nice to see Union Station featured here :)
That said, there are a lot of issues Central Terminal suffers from that Union Station never did. Union Station links Worcester to Boston by commuter rail, which made the project more viable from the beginning. Buffalo doesn't have a similar nearby commuter city. It would be nice to link to Toronto, but that won't generate the same use as a commuter line.
Also, Union Station is pretty centrally located in Worcester and is right off the highway. Before it was restored, I think its visibility made it easy for people to imagine it as a transportation hub again. Plus, it's a building people notice when they visit the city, so fixing it improved people's first impressions of Worcester. Central Terminal, unfortunately, isn't nearly as visible or (perceived to be) centrally located.
Then there's the size of the buildings. Union Station is big, but I don't think it's half the size of Central Terminal. If it can be turned into a transportation hub again, it will be difficult to generate enough activity there to convince people Central Terminal isn't "dead."
If Amtrak were interested in relocating there, that would be a start toward a reconstruction plan. There has to be good reason to fix the building besides its architectural value and the estimated cost of letting it sit there.
Don't get me wrong, I love Central Terminal and want to see it fixed, I just think someone has to draw up a convincing and realistic plan for the building's use before anyone will sign on with the money. I think the Union Station plan basically wrote itself, whereas this is harder.
Report this
fredrico
mmiller Thank you for all your hard work on this vital project.
Report this
mmiller
There's a proposed link of the light rail to the airport that could stop at the terminal. Amtrak has told us that they are receptive to stopping at the terminal, once it's viable again.
I didn't say it would be easy! Nothing I've done there in the past 5 years has been.
Report this
tonyarmani
Mike - great post. Maybe we can think of how to employ the East Side residents at CT to get them involved, decreasing the possibility of vandalism and neglect. I have always said the Central Terminal should be re-used for what it was originally created for, as rail transportation should begin to reach levels not seen in 100 years. We must make the terminal an attractive and beneficial port for companies looking to transport through Buffalo & north east. Call me crazy but a large scale return to railroads (with greater speeds and efficiencies) is just what this country needs.
Report this
mmiller
Tony, we do have neighbors who are involved in the project. I have one neighborhood friend who keeps an eye on the terminal (walks the property with he dog every day) and lets me know what's going on. Our instances of vandalism have been greatly reduced in the past couple years directly because the neighbors are watching.
To be clear: the terminal is so large that there will be room for other projects (retail, offices) there besides an intermodal transportation facility. Over 1,100 people worked there during its heyday. The plan has always been to return rail service to the terminal.
Report this
PaulBuffalo
Tonyarmani (and anyone else who wants to comment), what is your perspective that the terminal is not centrally located downtown?
Report this
blackrocklifer
tonyarmani- Nothing crazy about a return to railroads, this is exactly what this country needs. Cities would benefit greatly and railroads are very environmentally friendly.
Report this
mmiller
The terminal is a very short commute from the 190 and the 33 and from the city or suburbs, Broadway, Genesee, Best or William will get you there in minutes.
Think of the possibilities of linking light rail to the airport and Galleria Mall, with a stop at the terminal.
Report this
rydog71
The Terminal was built in 1929 at which time the east side of Buffalo was a different neighborhood. It was predominately working/middle class plus it also had some of Buffalo's major rail yards. This was a major facility for the New York Central Railroad and it just wasn't a passenger destination. In 1929 the East Side was an ideal location.
All that said, the question shouldn't be why it was built there but how we turn it around. Until the City of Buffalo does more to reduce crime and turnaround these neighborhoods places like the Terminal and Broadway market are going to struggle. But with some innovative thinking these buildings can become vibrant business once again even in these neighborhoods. No one ever thought the Elk Terminal Lofts would be a success since they are right next to the Perry Projects but that has worked out. Also take a look at the Larkin Building, another run down neighborhood that has seen successful development and the Terminal is only about 3 minutes from there.
Report this
Joshua
How far is the Central Terminal from... ...I-90 @ William St. Exit?... 4 Miles ...Downtown?... 2.5 Miles ...Larkin at Exchange?... 2 Miles ...I-190 @ Smith St./Fillmore St. Exit?... 2 Miles
Besides the rail lines that go directly to the Buffalo Airport, Downtown, et. al... This building is centrally located to just about everywhere.
Report this
mmiller
Rydog, "Until the City of Buffalo does more to reduce crime and turnaround these neighborhoods places like the Terminal and Broadway market are going to struggle." In defense of the Buffalo Police, I've witnessed several major crime sweeps through the area, generated from the back parking plaza at the terminal.
Report this
Courtney
I have been to various events at the Central Terminal over the last few years and have never felt unsafe or threatened. In fact, during this year’s Dyngus Day party, hundreds of attendees walked through the East Side neighborhood to different venues and participating bars. That’s right, Irishkwh, we walked at night, in the dark, down those ‘ghetto’ streets and nothing happened…aside from some cheers and highfiving strangers. The vehicle(s) that we parked there during events have never been vandalized, broken into, or damaged.
Irishkwh, please don’t make rash judgments. Come down to one of the many fun and safe events at the Terminal year round and see for yourself.
Report this
Courtney
I have been to various events at the Central Terminal over the last few years and have never felt unsafe or threatened. In fact, during this year’s Dyngus Day party, hundreds of attendees walked through the East Side neighborhood to different venues and participating bars. That’s right, Irishkwh, we walked at night, in the dark, down those ‘ghetto’ streets and nothing happened…aside from some cheers and highfiving strangers. The vehicle(s) that we parked there during events have never been vandalized, broken into, or damaged.
Irishkwh, please don’t make rash judgments. Come down to one of the many fun and safe events at the Terminal year round and see for yourself.
Report this
mmiller
Thanks Courtney! My sentiments exactly.
We've only had one incident of theft at one of our events. Some girl reported that her car got stolen a couple years ago after an event and it turned out to be her boyfriend that did it. Other than that, nothing.
Report this
WCPerspective
The before/afters for the Worcester station are amazing. I wonder if there's a market for weekend trains to/from Toronto...they could also be used for WNYers heading up there for the day/weekend and for Toronto folks to shop, dine, etc. in Buffalo. Maybe even Bills game trains. It would be a start to getting train service back at the terminal.
Report this
Dan
rydog71> The Terminal was built in 1929 at which time the east side of Buffalo was a different neighborhood. It was predominately working/middle class plus it also had some of Buffalo's major rail yards. This was a major facility for the New York Central Railroad and it just wasn't a passenger destination. In 1929 the East Side was an ideal location.
Central Terminal is where it is because it's the closest point to downtown Buffalo where through trains west to Chicago along the New York Central Water Level Route, and mainlines of other railroads, would be able to stop without backtracking. If Central Terminal was placed downtown, there would be more switching operations for non-New York Central passenger trains to serve the station, and through trains to Chicago would need to backtrack or loop around the busy Belt Line to return to the Water Level Route mainline.
A long-time local urban legend is that Central Terminal was built where it is now because railroad officials anticipated the expansion of downtown Buffalo into the Broadway-Fillmore area as the boom of the 1920s continued. That just isn't true. Downtown Buffalo is very linear, and traditionally grew northward, not eastward.
FWIW, the threat of crime in Broadway-Fillmore/Poloinia is greatly exaggerated, but it's still a rough neighborhood and an emerging urban prairie.
Report this
onestarmartin
If it was downtown it would be an office building...thats rich. To many historic buildings downtown are still empty and rotting away. We still have a long way to go. Also, if it had been downtown, would it still be standing from our bulldoze happy days of the 60's and 70's? I must admit it would stand a better chance of getting done quicker if it was in the city core. Make a hell of a better convention center than the one we have. Oh well, keep up the good work.
Report this
Biniszkiewicz
Dan: that explanation (why so far from downtown) makes a lot more sense than the anticipation that downtown would expand so far east (the reason i had often heard). Thanks for that info.
I own a property a stone's throw from the terminal. Very happy with all the restoration corp has managed to accomplish over the last decade or so. That said, the location makes attracting tenants for re-use difficult.
Report this
mmiller
Biniszkiewicz, "That said, the location makes attracting tenants for re-use difficult. "
Difficult, yes. But as CityView proved with the Larkin Co. building, it's very possible.
Report this
MJWorthington
Anything is possible with determination and manpower. Its all too easy to give up on something and then move away and try to forget it. Thanks to all those who take chances large and small on places such as this. We are all much better off becuase of your underappreciated efforts.
Report this
mmiller
Thanks MJW!
I'll remind people that 5 short years ago, when we reopened to the public, we were basically told that nobody will come to a dilapidated old train station in a crime-ridden area. 100,000 visitors later, we're still an attraction.
If we give up, the city loses big time. It's time for those who CAN do something about the terminal to take the blinders off and help us make it happen.
Report this
buffaloweiner
If the Central Terminal was downtown or any closer to downtown then it would have been demolished and would be a parking lot....PLAIN AND SIMPLE
Buffalo had atleast 3 major train stations. 1 totally demolished and I believe that is the exchange street station. 1 is fractionally present and that is the DL&W missing its concourse. Finally the Central Terminal which is near fully intact.
The dynamics for the central teminal will change once the light rail is extended to the airport/lancaster.
Remember the dynamics arent friendly to a multi-modal station downtown nor are the future dynamics friendly to the maintenance sheds at the DL&W. Bass Pro and the Buffalo Casino and the Canal District are all going to place a high dollar premium on the DL&W. Translate that to developers are going to want the waterfront access which the NFTA maintenance sheds block. Especially if the Senecas start luring Great Lakes Cruise Ships to dock at the DLW as it was originally constructed. If that turns out as I predict, then expect great public pressure to reconstruct the passenger concourse for the DL&W to extend the wharf district all the way from Erie to Michigan.
Furthermore, growth in lancaster, airport, galleria, larkin district and ecc downtown all mean that the airport corridor is more profitable and viable than ever before. Infact, the airport has so much growth it cant expand the terminal or parking without the light rail.
The most likely alternative relocation for the NFTA maintenance sheds is the Central Terminal.
The most likely alternative location for the multi-modal station for rail, light rail, buses is the central terminal.
If that happens then Buffalo will be one of the rarest of the rare in the nation with two intact rail stations from this nations golden age.
Now if we can just get albany to give equal funding for high speed rail to upstate intead of spending 99% of it between albany and nyc.
Report this
driz716
The constant and overwhelming turn out for each and every Central Terminal event is sure fire evidence of just how much we want this building to come back to life.
I agree Rachacha, if they can do it, we can do it times two!!
As a diehard fan of the building and the cause, I promote every Terminal event and attend every clean up. Little by little, I manage to convince more and more of my surburban and east-side-apprehensive friends to experience the neighborhood, the building and the community of Terminal lovers. We all have a great time there and my volunteer crew is beginning to grow!
Can't wait for another chance to contribute............Can't wait to see what the future holds for this special place.
Report this
ExWNYer
Wouldn't it be great to see this rehabilitated and turned into a convention center and hotel that was part of a rail extension that went through the new casino, the central terminal and to the airport?
Report this
PaulBuffalo
Mmiller, I ventured into the terminal on cold New Year's Day in 1999 or 2000. It was rather easy to go through the gaps in the plywood meant to secure the building. I took some photos and, as I wandered through the structure, I thought that it was only a matter of time before the building would be razed. I just looked at my photos and am amazed as I read the comments about the terminal's future. What a turnaround.
Report this
driz716
The constant and overwhelming turn out for each and every Central Terminal event is sure fire evidence of just how much we want this building to come back to life.
I agree Rachacha, if they can do it, we can do it times two!!
As a diehard fan of the building and the cause, I promote every Terminal event and attend every clean up. Little by little, I manage to convince more and more of my surburban and east-side-apprehensive friends to experience the neighborhood, the building and the community of Terminal lovers. We all have a great time there and my volunteer crew is beginning to grow!
Can't wait for another chance to contribute............Can't wait to see what the future holds for this special place.
Report this
mmiller
PaulBuffalo, if you look at the before photos of Worcester Union Station, I bet it looks similar to the destruction you saw back then. Since that time over 350 tons of debris have been removed. Check our website for current photos: www.buffalocentralterminal.org.
Report this
wizardofza
miller, Larkin is in a de-populated industrial area smack-dab next to the 190 and just minutes from downtown, whereas the Terminal is in the middle of a decaying residential district that requires taking a short drive through quite unflattering surroundings in order to get to both nearby expressways.
About the history involved with locating the terminal, Dan is right on the money. There is no way for trains to go directly southbound/westbound (to Cleveland, Chicago) from Downtown without turning around and backtracking. The terminal would make a great replacement for the pitiful Dick Rd. station exception for the fact that there would be a lot of chickenshit suburbanities who would be squeamish about driving through the east side to get there much less leaving their car parked there for several days.
Report this
mmiller
"miller, Larkin is in a de-populated industrial area smack-dab next to the 190 and just minutes from downtown"
My point is that when CityView started on the Larkin Co. building, Doug Swift was told that he was crazy too and that no one would want to work there. 1,800 tenants later, the Larkin District is thriving and even expanding!
Report this
rydog71
mmiller, you can defend the BPD all you want but the reality of it is that people watch the news. Its unfortunate but more often than not the major crimes reported are on the East Side or near by. This is what a large portion of WNYers know of the east side. Crime, specifically violent crimes in the city l has been spinning out of control and the city needs to be more involved in controlling it and that goes way beyond a police presence.
mmiller this doesn't mean I'm against the east side or finding a use for the central terminal. In the past I have been very involved with the CTRC in helping to get the message out.
dan, sorry i didn't get into specific details of the rail system on the east side but what you mentioned is the reason it was home to so many rail yards.
Report this
nick
The key to this, and all of Buffalo's myriad of problems are finding solutions. Saying something can or cannot be done is easy, but making change and solutions are difficult. Change and improvement will be limited without someone or something (private investor, non-profit, govt) taking a risk on neighborhoods, infrastructure and investment. The plan for this building encompasses the redevelopment of the building as a ancillary benefit of creating an integrated transportation network. The redevelopment of other sections of the building would be a significant aspect of the plan, to induce private investment in the building as an east side business incubator akin to the Larkin center. The plan is not a dream, but a solution that has been utilized in other cities.
Report this
jsk1983
There already is one train a day from Buffalo to Toronto run by Amtrak. Its not cheap, is slow as mollases, yet tomorrows train looks to be sold out. I doubt anyone actually takes it from Buffalo to Toronto (it originates in NY) as the journey time is about 4.5 hours for what would take 1.5 by car. It takes about an hour just to get to NF, NY, then it sits in NF, ON for an hour. I saw fares from $38 to $55. If rail were to ever be viable between Buffalo and Toronto the entire system would have to be rebuilt and there would have to be an easier way to go through customs. Anyways my point, if I have one, is that the demand for rail is definitely there, especially considering trains manage to sell out despite their slow speed and their cost which can't be called competitive compared to air. For example Amtrak between Buffalo and Chicago starts out at $58 (its getting harder and harder to get those $58 seats) and runs up to $112 as the train nears capacity. The train leaves at 10:00 at night and takes its sweet old time to get to Buffalo (about 11 hours if it actually is on time). Now imagine if we invested the money to get trains up to say 100MPH (I believe there is a stretch of track in MI where this is the case) that journey could be reduced to six hours, sure a little bit longer than flying but the extra few hours are well worth it for the more pleasent travel expierence. People traveling from say Cleveland to Chicago would probably be at an advantage. All we need now is a federal government that will fund it.
Report this
shaneboy
whens the next cleanup project? lets clean it up and start making sweet railroads again.
Report this
Joshua
shaneboy - if you are interested in volunteering please message me.
Report this
Biniszkiewicz
Many good comments.
mmiller: no, not impossible. In the early 1990s, the president of the company Air-Sep wanted to acquire the terminal for its headquarters. He loved the iconic presence of the structure. City Hall frustrated him, he claimed, and they stayed in Amherst. They had harder times afterward, but were growing like crazy then (still in business). Anyway, no it's not impossible to find users for this building, but it is going to be tough.
I, too, thought the Larkin bldg. was a stretch and doubted its success. It's a home run. But Wiz is exactly on the money when he highlights the on/off ramp of the 190. What makes the Larkin work is exactly that: it's essentially a multistory new suburban office park with free parking at the on/off ramp which happens to be only a mile from downtown. Quick on, quick off. In this suburban commuter world, that's key. Driving one block from the highway exit, as per Larkin, is a lot different than driving ten blocks through struggling neighborhood, as per the terminal. But again, not impossible to find users, just particularly challenging.
Maybe it's a non business use. Maybe it's an office condo building housing exclusively non profits. Homeless shelter, soup kitchen, counseling services, twenty different agencies focused on troubled populations could call it home. All their clients could see the building from a distance and figure out a way to walk there. No confusion about where to go.
Maybe rail comes back (it's doing well freight-wise). jsk is right: if the trains were fast and efficient like in the rest of the industrialized world, they'd probably be a lot more popular in this era of rising fuel prices. If rail comes back stronger, maybe this building has a different life.
Is there a need for a commercial rail shipping center? Is there such an animal? lots of companies used to have rail sidings, but few do today. Maybe there's a place for a commercial rail terminal with office space catering not to the passenger market but rather to the freight market. Maybe a smart developer acquires a long term lease from the terminal corporation for the purpose of operating a commercial freight multi-modal shipping center. Get all the freight from across town and ship via rail and then vice-versa, as diesel costs continue to impact shipping charges. There's lots of trucking operations in every burgh. Maybe rail will entice some industrial rail counterpart. I hope. It would be nice. And industrial users don't care as much about the neighborhood.
I don't mean to imply that saving the terminal is hopeless, the solution is not impossible. But neither is it self evident.
Report this
ksarkisian
One of my best friends is getting married and having the reception in the CT on the 30th. I think this is great. Hopefully mmiller and company can keep up the good work. When my kids get older hopefully they can volunteer and help contribute to it's success.
Report this
bfloghost
nick-you get the BRO Genius Award.... in my best Brain Regan voice "duh what we need is finding solutions. Yeah solutions is what we need."
Report this
nick
bflo, I appreciate the backhanded compliment, sadly there are more dreams and pundants than solutions. Sometimes the easiest ideas to grasp are the last one to take hold. Try reading the plan instead of just commenting on other's comments, you may learn something.
Report this
stewie
this place is a nice toy that mmiller et al like to play with but it's a crumbling reminder of yesteryear that will never find any use beyond eclectic gatherings. It's in the middle of a black ghetto where the lowest of the low reside. Take a drive through there some afternoon & see all the 2 & 3 year olds walking around unsupervised & all the men drinking out of paper bags. How come Queenseyes never reports on bike rides through this lovely part of town?
Report this
kooksapalooza
exactly what woudl that report say? buffalo is dying? this is buffalo rising slugger
Report this
buffaloweiner
The Central Terminal and the DL&W have very bright future though not in the near term.
The light rail will get built to the airport and out to lancaster. It will stop at the Central Terminal.
There is a NYS Commission on High Speed Rail and the Central Terminal is the only location that can handle high speed rail. While most of the money is being spend between albany and nyc....its only a matter of time before Buffalos connecting rail lines to Pittsburgh and Cleveland and Albany and Niagara Falls/Toronto dictate its funding. Already Buffalo is on the national watch list for needing its freight rail upgraded.
Rail and Light Rail are the most efficient forms of transportation for passenger and freight.
Extending the Light Rail to the airport will change everything...and the sooner the better.
PS. UB has a center for global enterprise management which deals with international trade, logistics, supply chain management, etc. Buffalo also has centers for trade with Canada, Europe and a World Trade Center. It wouldnt take much to turn a center into a center for excellence and locate it at the central terminal.
Report this
al-alo
Just to clarify:
there were a number of downtown stations: the Lehigh Valley Station located roughly were the Buffalo News is, the DL&W station at the waterfront, the New York Central RR stations at the CT and the old "Union Station" on exchange Street. There were others at various times, and smaller Belt Line RR stations dotting downtown.
The construction of the BCT and all of the rest of the stations were a result of the collapse of negotiations between the railroads, and the railroads and the city (what, you thought disfunction was a new thing?).
Report this
nick
kooks, are you talking about the forbes report?
Report this
kooksapalooza
yeah i was...i wasnt saying i agree with it tho..i was pointing out that why would a website called buffalo rising focus on "taking a drive hrough there some afternoon & see all the 2 & 3 year olds walking around unsupervised & all the men drinking out of paper bags. How come Queenseyes never reports on bike rides through this lovely part of town? " As stewie mentioned
Report this
sonyactivision
It could be a World Trade Center for Buffalo with customs offices, businesses involved in trade with Canada and convention and meeting facilities. Its lack of proximity to Downtown's built up core is actually a plus for some government agencies that require huge setbacks from the street. It could be the kind of fortress that they seek. But to gain such tennants, it has to be restored to Class A, with the best of amenities. And the feds should cough up: when has any project of this scope ever been undertaken privately? (St. Louis's Union Station mall conversion notwithstanding ) Keep up the good fight, Mike Miller!
Report this
mmiller
I thank you all for the comments, negative and positive. There has been some really good commentary on here and I love reading it all.
This article was written to give this rehabilitation plan some exposure. It's not a new idea. Nick and I have been talking about it for better than a year. He even proposed the idea to Bashar Issa at a board meeting we had last July at the Statler. It has some real and practical advantages for a developer. We just wanted to plant the seed and see what grew from it. While it wasn't met with overwhelming support by Congressman Nadler (who knows very little about the terminal), it has been met with support from Sen. Clinton's office. We've found over the years that new ideas regarding the redevelopment of the terminal are always met with opposition at first.
Report this
al-alo
Sonyactivision,
DC Union station comes to mind as the other large investment. But that was a clustermess in a whole lotta ways. Also Cinci Union station houses rail service (minimal currently, but Ohio has some pretty bold plans) as well as an omnimax and their history and science museums.
the old Reading terminal in Phily is something worth checking out. no rail service, but a giant public market.
I believe the DL&W terminal in Hoboken is getting a fair amount of work.
Report this
mmiller
Omaha has a beautifully restored Art Deco station. Lockport's beautiful old sandstone train station is in the process of being restored, after a fire completely gutted it.
I think we have to stop thinking in terms of what can't happen at the terminal and why it can't happen. We all have a responsibility to find a use for it. It's not going away any time soon and we really have no other option but to find a reuse for it. Time is of the essence though.
Report this
mmiller
To all those who are negative about the terminal's future: what do YOU suggest that we do? I'm really interested to know.
We know that whatever path we take, we'll face difficulties and obstacles. We're ready for that. Dismissing its future because it will be difficult is not an option. If the CTRC quits maintaining the building, it will slowly fall apart until the city (or some governing body that can afford it) is forced to pay $20 million to tear it down. First, the neighborhood will pay, then we'll ALL pay.
Report this
nick
Hmm, seems there are few actual comments on the actual plan and viability of reusing the buiding with federal transportation funding sources. People complain about lack of solutions, but does anyone really want to talk about them, it seems not. Maybe this is why politicians don't really try to solve problems, because people don't really care about the solutions, policies and details.
Report this
mmiller
Nick, you're absolutely right. We have to move past how hard it's going to be, to finding a solution. Sure it's going to be hard. It's been a hard road for the past eleven years.
Report this
AtwaterLouse
Spending tax money to relocate the downtown intercity bus station to a much less convenient location in Broadway/Fillmore is a terrible idea all around. mmiller, is that part of what you're proposing? If so, I'm surprised. I also don't see the point of moving Amtrak back from Depew to the CT, although that's not as crazy as moving the bus station. Both moves would be a very poor use of tax money, however.
What Bini wrote makes the most sense - the possibility of some day a private company buying the CT. That should be the goal.
Report this
AtwaterLouse
Opps, I guess 'buying' isn't the right word. Make that: the possibility of some day a private company obtaining and using the CT.
Report this
nick
Atwater, a mixed-use, multi-funding source is most likely the only chance the terminal has to be rehabilitated. Utilizing public funding for transportation is viable and the entire pricetag wouldn't be passed to tax payers, private investment would be used for the bagage buildings and most likely the tower. It would only be the concourse which would recieve public funding. The building would not be rehabbed in a bubble, it would be the centerpiece of a revitalized regional transportation center, and a business incubator for the neighborhood.
Report this
mmiller
Atwater: "Spending tax money to relocate the downtown intercity bus station to a much less convenient location in Broadway/Fillmore is a terrible idea all around. mmiller, is that part of what you're proposing? If so, I'm surprised. I also don't see the point of moving Amtrak back from Depew to the CT, although that's not as crazy as moving the bus station. Both moves would be a very poor use of tax money, however."
I missed your input to this discussion, thanks Atwater. What I was envisioning is more of a set of satellite offices for NFTA buses, taxis, light rail, Amtrak. The rest of the complex could be developed as retail and office space or light industry. Or freight and mail services. I wasn't thinking of moving the Greyhound bus station, but they could have an office there also.
In this scenario, you could spend $80 million of tax dollars to have a building that is once again employing people and on the tax base or $20 million to tear it down for land that's currently not worth much and no other benefit to the community.
Report this
SALA
The odds of one single owner / developer for this project is remote at best, given the circumstances of the neighborhood, size of the complex, and required complexity of the rehabilitation. In short there is no silver bullet, one magical stroke for this project. Leading one back to exactly what Nick has proposed with a mixture of private and government expense. Perhaps the creation of a regional transportation system highlighted by such moves that are presented here would resolve many of the issues facing planners, however a blog comment log is not the place for such a discussion.
Nick your comment about the general mind set of the public / politicians in regards to creating and executing solutions is exactly correct. Why would anyone actually attempt to solve something when you can recieve all the award without having to experience the risk of the project. Which is exactly what happens when projects are announced. Basically look like you're working really hard and people pat you on the back, who cares about the result.
Besides it's more fun to shred the plans and opinions of trained professionals until the negative projections come true, than it is to let the pros do their job and applaude the success.
Report this
mmiller
Sala, "The odds of one single owner / developer for this project is remote at best, given the circumstances of the neighborhood, size of the complex, and required complexity of the rehabilitation. In short there is no silver bullet, one magical stroke for this project."
Thank you for contributing to the discussion. We've known all along that there is no silver bullet answer to this project. That's exactly why we think this plan has potential. I should have mentioned specifically that this is not the total answer for the terminal, as Nick stated a few comments ago. I just assumed that everyone would know that based on the enormous size of the complex.
Report this
AtwaterLouse
"What I was envisioning is more of a set of satellite offices for NFTA buses, taxis, light rail, Amtrak.
mmiller (& nick) - To me that sounds like a 'make work' job for the CT.
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/make+work
make work: noun Date: 1923 : work assigned or done chiefly to keep one busy
Set aside for a moment the significance of the CT structure, and consider the questions:
Would anyone seriously say there's a real need for a 'satellite offices for NFTA buses' in Broadway/Fillmore? Satellite for what purposes exactly? Was 'offices' a typo there? Did you mean NFTA bus garages? Even that sounds strange, doesn't it? Does the NFTA have some shortage of garage space?
Why would it be a smart use of money to divert from making the NFTA bus system as good as it can be for passengers? Just to make people feel good about the CT being used for some NFTA-realted purpose that's invented out of thin air? Shouldn't NFTA investments and ongoing spending focus on more directly improving customer service?
Even if Buffalo's light rail system is expanded some day, would anyone seriously say its an important priority to locate a very expensive station for it on Memorial Drive? Even if a new Metro line would connect downtown and the airport, wouldn't it make more sense in a lot of ways to locate a station around there closer to a street where people walk and live? I doubt the CT would be an efficient sensible spot for a Metro station.
And what do you mean by taxis? You lost me with that too.
As you said it won't be easy, but I think what will need to happen is to find a real job for the CT in which it earns its keep much better than some creative mix of ideas that aren't justified individually at that location. I know it's a long shot, but was there ever been any follow up with that company Bini mentioned being interested in it once - Airsep? Or what about a finding a developer to consider converting it for multiple companies to use parts of - maybe in ways similar to what Airsep envisioned for it?
Report this
AtwaterLouse
About Amtrak, again moving it back from Depew to the CT isn't as terrible an idea as moving the Greyhound/Trailways bus station away from downtown (that would be crazy, good to see your not proposing that). But still the Depew station must have big cost advantages over the CT.
Fewer than 300 people per day total use Amtrak in the Buffalo area (210/day at Depew, 45/day at Exchange St downtown). If more money is to be spent every year related to Amtrak passengers here, maybe upgrading the Exchange St station downtown, and/or improving NFTA bus service to/from the Depew station would be much more useful spending from perspective of regular normal average Buffalonians.
As btal points out a few comments up, comparison to the Worcester Union Station's use as a transportation center has big weaknesses. That station is right in the heart of their downtown which makes a big difference, and in addition to Amtrak and intercity bus lines it also serves 1000 daily passengers on MBTA commuter rail to Boston.
Report this
nick
Atwater, Your points are valid concerns. The transportation funding is limited to certain expenditures. NFTA could not be able to spend a great portion of the money on buses as its only for rail-related facilities. Other expenditures are specific line-items that are utilized for designated infrastructure projects. Why put money into the Amshack in Depew, again I'm not calling for goverment paid rehab of the entire building, but a mixed-use facility. Private investment is needed, but it may only be primed following public expenditure. Writing this building off means writing off the neighborhood, but priming the area could lead to economic development and rebirth. The money is out there, and its going to be utilized somewhere, why not Buffalo, why not the East Side, why not Central Terminal?
Report this
MAP051970
I spent some quality time in Buffalo earlier this summer in order to attend "Artists & Models" at The Central Terminal and I've just read through the comments in this thread to date and am amazed at how many people view the structure as a liability rather than a potential asset to the city and to the region. While I'm firmly on the side of returning the terminal to its intended use as a rail station, there are examples of creative reuse of similar structures all over the country and you can read more about my thoughts on this issue here: http://icartographer.blogspot.com/2008/07/series-of-modest-proposals-for-buffalos.html And as for the location of The Central Terminal, will further neglect of this historic building benefit surrounding neighborhoods in any way, shape, or form? Similar arguments were voiced while I lived in San Francisco in the late 90s about The Mission Bay district and the Caltrain station located there: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mission_Bay,_San_Francisco,_California After extension of light rail to the Caltrain station, however, UCSF moved their genetics labs into the area and several businesses, residents (both high- and low-income), and tourists followed suit: http://www.ucsf.edu/mission-bay I currently live in Iowa, but not for long, and there are some towns out here that have put themselves on the map with much less to work with (I assure you). So, to rephrase one of the questions that I posted in my article above: "Why not make The Central Terminal a tourist destination unto itself?”
Report this
AtwaterLouse
nick - I'm not saying write it off, I'm saying the opposite. Treat it like a grown up with potential for self sufficiency doing real job(s) for which it's really economically suited here in 21st century Buffalo.
Why not put together a volunteer group of 4 or 5 commercial real estate pros - starting with locals like Bini if he's willing, and also ideally recruiting some not from Buffalo for outside perspectives (maybe with interest in that style architecture, or with some past or indirect ties to Buffalo)?
Ask them to take some time and formulate strategies to market the CT for some private sector uses (single, mixed, whatever) that it really could be great for. I don't know what those uses are but there very well might be some. Maybe what that previous co had in mind who considered it as Bini mentioned would be a good place to start the ideas. Then find cheap ways to promote it nationally and internationally for a few years, including a very professional web site outlining serious possibilities and linking to some professionally produced discussions about it. These efforts should be of serious high quality, first class all the way. Get a contact in ESDC to help from that end for tax breaks and other help they could offer and for their contacts in NYC and elsewhere, etc.
It would still be a long shot considering the location and the NYS business environment and all that, but who knows. It's a very unusual structure that might be perfect for something some kind of company somewhere would want but they've never heard of it. My guess is it's more likely to work than begging politicians to just make a highly subsidized job for it being a satellite public sector what-chama-call-it or mixed use set of them.
Report this
bfloghost