Buffalo Rising Online

They went all out with the beautiful parking lot landscaping. That's what I call low-maintenance!

I was at the outer harbor yesterday and walked the entire area. There are already some great changes and there was more people down there yesterday just walking, jogging and biking than I have seen in two years. There is an excitement in the air down there and I can't wait until it is complete.

Hoping is a wishful word. This is a pathetic picture. Buffalo's working-class interpretration of a Japanese garden?

can't they just go underneath or above the elevated portion, via bridge, to have access to the water? i mean is it really that complicated? has the 190 stifled development of the inner harbor and all those condos? i feel like the time to question it was a few years ago

Looking forward to this series. There's lots of potential for the Outer Harbor, it just needs to be guided in the right direction!

The DOT's plan to make an even bigger wall doesn't make any sense. Why does everything in this city have to revolve around the automobile? Some people don't even WANT their cars, with all the gas prices and difficulty travelling in and around suburbs.

Let's hope RIverkeeper's lawsuit pulls through.

I agree with bfloboy86 about the world revolving around cars and I don't think that the wall makes too much sense either. I think that the Riverkeepers ideas are much well suited and it is a better design as well. As stated in other comments though, it needs direction and someone to take charge and get it done. It is like having an army and telling them to go to war but not having a general to lead the way. Once the project gets leadership and direction then I don't think it would take too long for the project to get completed. HOO-RAH!

bfloboy86...You ask, "Why does everything in the city revolve around cars?" Unless you have a light rail system that you can pull out of your magic hat and deposit it throughout WNY, what would you like people to use in place of their cars. It's great that a few Elmwood strip folks rely on bicycles, but they are completely impractical for daily use by most folks.

I am not sure what everyone is up in arms about? There will be a 4 lane lower speed PARKWAY(not highway) that runs between Rte. 5 and the outer harbor making it much easier to navigate the area(instead of zig zagging underneath Rte. 5). The reconstruction of Rte. 5 is being redone and will not be as elevated as it was before. So what if it is elevated? What is it, that is being cut off? Tifft Farm Nature Preserve and a bunch of industrial sites?

Focus on developing the outer harbor parcel and getting a bridge up between the inner and outer harbors and stop worrying about how this is "supposedly" going to prevent this area from ever being successfully developed.

If they were building this along the rivers edge like the 190 is through riverside, it would be a whole different story. Complaining for the sake of complaining is why nothingever gets done in WNY.

bfloboy86...You ask, "Why does everything in the city revolve around cars?" Unless you have a light rail system that you can pull out of your magic hat and deposit it throughout WNY, what would you like people to use in place of their cars. It's great that a few Elmwood strip folks rely on bicycles, but they are completely impractical for daily use by most folks.

I am not sure what everyone is up in arms about? There will be a 4 lane lower speed PARKWAY(not highway) that runs between Rte. 5 and the outer harbor making it much easier to navigate the area(instead of zig zagging underneath Rte. 5). The reconstruction of Rte. 5 is being redone and will not be as elevated as it was before. So what if it is elevated? What is it, that is being cut off? Tifft Farm Nature Preserve and a bunch of industrial sites? Focus on developing the outer harbor parcel and getting a bridge up between the inner and outer harbors and stop worrying about how this is going to prevent this area from ever being successfully developed.

If they were building this along the rivers edge like the 190 is through riverside, it would be a whole different story. Complaining for the sake of complaining is why nothing ever gets done in WNY.

Just because some people choose to live where they must rely on a car doesn't mean everyone should be negatively impacted because of them. This is a city asset and 40% of the city's residents do not own a car. Why must the city lose its waterfront to people, many of whom turned their back on the city when they moved out years ago, all for 10 minutes of their time.

It shouldn't be the city's fault that people decided for themselves to live and move far away from their work and must rely on highways to make their homes convenient. We tried to 'bring people back' to buffalo.. it was called the 33 and 190.. all it did was give people faster access to cheaper land on the fringe and became a vacuum to suck population away from their jobs and traditional neighborhoods. This highway along our waterfront does the same thing.

Good point sbrof- The residents of the city derive very little benefit from the highways that haved been rammed through our neighborhoods. Why should we accomodate and even subsidize highways when we know they will only cause more harm.

Well said sbrof!

Sbrof-

I can agree with you that I, along with my neighbors, choose to live in the suburbs. I do not feel, though, that I have turned my back on the city. Demographically, it seems people my age (I'm 32) embrace the city; whereas my older neighbors (50+) seem to view it as a wasteland. Either way; I'll continue to volunteer, shop, eat, drink, work, and entertain myself in the city, while living in Orchard Park. I've made these choics to fit my lifestyle, and I'm OK with the commute.

As far as the Parkway system, versus the highway system... I don't care if I'm doing 55, or 35 down this road. Drop the speed limit. It'll take me 5 extra minutes. Life goes on.

The concern I have is that I really, truly, honestly don't see an advantage to the panacea that this site is trumpeting in the Parkway system. It just offsets some of the disadvantages; shfits them from a highway of speeding cars, to a sea of traffic lights, and stopped/idling cars. Take your choice, either will detract from the waterfront, but we'll end up with al least one of these necessary evils.

I usually am wholeheartedly behind BRO; but I just... don't...get... this one.

And, where were y'all in the past 7 years when this plan came up, repeatedly, during the review session if you were so against it?

I was there on Saturday and saw broken glass in the parking lot, indicating to me that there was most likely a break in. Not good. The views however were spectacular and gave me a new and different appreciation of the waterfront. Few more quick things: Get a security camera or do something for parking lot security. Glad Route 5 will be a wall - nothing but crap on the other side. Having the expressway and a boulevard running parallel along the waterfront is exactly the set up in Toroonto and it seems to work just fine.

Lastly, they need garbage cans out there and someone to clean up the bird poop - they are really bombing away out there.

Yea the Toronto expressway works just fine thats why the citizens of Toronto are fighting to get the Gardiner downgraded to a boulevard

There is general agreement that authorities suck, so we created another one to run the waterfront.

I will try to get down there this evening with a Spot Coffee in hand.

sbrof...40% of households or 40% of adults don't own a car? I'd love to know the source of these numbers?

Thanks.

sbrof...40% of households or 40% of adults don't own a car? I'd love to know the source of these numbers?

Thanks.

Look at that, another double post. "Buffalo Slowing Down Online" does it again.

blackrocklifer...Without the highways leading to downtown, you have no businesses. Take the highways out and see how many of the remaining businesses/govt offices remain except for city hall. People don't want a thruway around the perimeter of downtown(190) and they don't want it cutting through their neighborhood(33), where exactly should they go? Do you honestly believe that all the commuters can get to downtown using Clinton, Seneca, Broadway, Genesee & Main St.

Once again, can someone please explain how the redesigned Route 5 is going to be the back breaker in terms of the outer harbor development? This is no different from the BRO cries to have Main St. reopened to traffic. Main St. died when the suburban malls took off and at the same time, the city population dwindled. Go ahead and reopen Main St. to traffic and let me know how that "silver bullet" works out.

KenS- I rarely use the highways and have no trouble getting around. Buffalo has a radial street pattern that served this city well until the 1960's. Genesee, Sycamore, Broadway, William, Clinton, Niagara, Main, Seneca, South Park, Delaware, and Elmwood all lead downtown and many of these streets carry very little traffic even during commute times.

Paul...Both examples you cite are cities with extensive public transportation systems. Compare that to Buffalo where we have one short subway run(and almost zero chance of ever being extended in any direction) and bus service that has been cut to the point where it is of little use to those in the suburbs.

blackrocklifer and Paul...The reason the main arteries(Clinton, Seneca, Broadway, Genesee, etc...) are never busy is because most people are using the 190 or 33 to get downtown. Take all those cars and put them on these streets and I believe you would have gridlock during the morning and evening commutes.

King Higgins' first priority is ribbon cuttings, not good planning.

If we didn't have so many highways we would have more demand for transit and could very well have a better public transit system. A lack of public transit isn't an excuse for removing highways, they are the cause of such a poor transit system.

It has been proven time and time again through study after study that a GRID street pattern can handle more traffic, with less congestion than an arterial \ highway system. the 190 is 4 lanes.. Broadway, Genesee, Sycamore, Clinton, William etc etc are all potentially 4 lane roads.. PLUS the shortest distance, from most people's neighborhoods are not the highway and drivers must often drive many more miles to their destination in order to take the highways..

Downtown Buffalo to NT via highway 14.3 miles via Delaware 10.5 miles.

Another one:

Downtown Buffalo to Walden Gallaria. Via Highway = 10.3m Via roads 6.6m

Here is an interesting concept against spending money for highways.

Who has driven down a major Buffalo parkway, avenue, street, etc? Who has driven down one of the thousands of side streets?

These are streets people live on and have businesses, as well as commute. If Buffalo wants to be a livable city then instead of using the gas tax for highways, then why not redirect more of those monies away from highways to repaving and recobbling/rebricking and recurbing every street in the city of Buffalo.

Of course that means updating the electrical mains, water mains, sewars under the streets (or its all wasted effort).

Of course that means new trees and sidewalks and street lights

But I say...if you want to increase property values enough for people to want to livein Buffalo, then you have to stop making Buffalo such a filthy, unplowed, unswept, pot hole ridden 3rd world ghetto.

No...its not just about highways....and its not just about uban parking garages and its not just about extending the light rail...ITS ABOUT PRIORITIES

Priorities which our city, council, county, legislature, and local institutions simply will not step forward to do.

Before you add another lane on a highway...frankly my repaving the streets in my neighborhood are more important...and since I know many who do not drive...so is extending the light rail.

Highways enable suburbanites to get downtown without driving through areas they fear. Maybe taking the streets would be helpful to broaden their horizens. Maybe they would see first hand just how deep the poverty runs and develop a little empathy. They might even see how many good decent people work hard to maintain their property and neighborhood even when the deck is stacked against them.

blackrocklifer...I often drive in to downtown via Broadway and while it isn't as bad as Genesee, there isn't a lot there outside of the broadway market.

The entire East side is a joke(sorry if the truth hurts) and is the primary reason why people moved by the tens of thousands to the suburbs over the last 30 years.

PS I've never seen so many problems in a city that are linked to the infamous "street grid". I've got a better place to start in terms of the root cause...it's called city hall.

I'm going to have to disagree with the comment... "The entire East side is a joke.... . The truth is that it is not a joke, it is a tragedy. I'm sure the people who are living there are laughing, huh? If people stood up (40-45 years ago) and didn't allow their neighborhoods to turn out the way they did then we would not be having this conversation. Instead these people went for greener pastures in the burbs. With the destruction of a great public transportation system (trains and trolleys that connected the entire city 50 years ago) people needed cars to get around the City and then was the need for a garage and driveway. There is more then one reason why cities like Buffalo and Cleveland saw a major decline. It is a tragedy.

becker -- Wouldn't it make sense that if people are working downtown that they might live downtown or in the City somewhere?

It's not the new urbanist agenda, its traditional urbanism as its occured for hundreds of years prior to the 1950s propagation of the National Highway System. It's fine to say people will never embrace urbanism in buffalo, and that's fine but don't expect the city to grow. Sorry, the burbs aren't attracting anyone to buffalo, a burb is a burb no matter where you go. I guess I'll have to stay in a large city to enjoy the easy of city life, which people in buffalo see as a hindrance.

Personally, I find living in the City, for the most part is not a hindrance. I'm always driving opposite "rush hour" traffic and never being caught in traffic. I love being so close to Elmwood and Hertel shops and restaurants. Having a small parking spot would be great but if not, oh well. For example, The Parkside Neighborhood is only about a 5 minute walk to the subway, 10 minute walk to Hertel. In addition to having a meal and leaving, you can grab a coffee or a drink. In my opinion, there is a much higher quality of living in the City.

The ease of vehicular movement in a city is a great indicator of a failing city. Cities are meant to have traffic and conjestion, it means there's people! Buffalo has infrastructure beyond capacity, leaving little incentive for people to change their ways. Things don't change without incentive, apparently losing half its population is not incentive enough to enduce change, and I'm not specifically talking about transportion policy. People complain that their kids have to leave Buffalo, but will they make the changes neccesary to keep the kids in town? Not while things are comfortable.

Paul - I would really like to visit Vancouver. All I hear are great things about the City. You are right about the commutes here. I suppose if it took about 2 hours to get from Downtown to the Airport then there might be increased value in public transportation. With that being said a rail line connecting Downtown to the Airport would bring increased value in the City.

Becker- I don't believe all the people in the suburbs are terrible and greedy. I have friends and family there. Most are not intentionally working against the city but there is an attitude of contempt for Buffalo by many in suburbia. I have spent time in both communities and have heard a lot of debate. Playing defense for the place you call home can be tiring and I will admit I may sound defensive. Black Rock has taken a beating by forces beyond its control and the suburbs have benefitted at our expense. But no victims here, I live in a great neighborhood, with good friends and a sense of community few are lucky enough to expirience.

Becker - 1) I'm not telling anyone where to live. I don't appreciate having words put in my mouth. 2) I'm stating my opinion by highlighting the positives of the City where people only focus on the negatives. I enjoy living in the City.

3) Why would anyone take pity on me or anyone else that lives in the City. That has got to be the most uninformed comment I've seen on this site in a long time. 4) The reason why someone would purchase a house on Bidwell, etc.. for $300,000 is, it is the hot area to be in. I'm thinking of a simple case of supply and demand??? Possibly that is the case. 5) Safety? Did you hear about the 5 cars that were set on fire in the Frankhouser neighborhood (for those that don't know - it is between Maple and Sheridan Dr. - next to UB Amherst!!!) The safety argument hold very little water.

Al and Nick - Thank you. We need more people to leave comments that support the City.

I've never been there but I've been to Nashville, Columbus and several others. Nashville, believe it or not is another great walkable City also. Columbus has made great strides to rehab many older buildings and that has helped to make it walkable.

Orlanmon- You are resonable and I pretty much agree with your take. As I said, playing defense can get tiring and I think sometimes to get real debate it is necessary to provoke a little. as for "lending a hand" my rep is solid here in Black Rock

The only thing I can ask people to consider from the remarks would be: 1) its the perfect argument why people will use light rail but will not use buses for mass transportation. People want heat, air condition, security, safety and timeliness which can be offered on the trains and at the stations and via cameras in the parking lots but not at bus stops.

2) As far as spending money on streets....remember its about more than commuters. People have businesses on these streets and they home homes. These are community streets more than commuter streets and community streets should be the priority. The reason the suburbs are successful is because businesses are attracted by the community.

No one says, hey, I want to live next to my office....most people say...I want to live in "x" community because of the safety, the retail, the parks, the schools, et all the amenities of a community....which may be different but could all be offered in an urban environment. Furthermore, Buffalo is not NYC....the majority of urban housing isnt that much different than suburban other than being 1 story ranch and having an attached garage.

Furthermore, D'Youville and Medaille are pretty much landlocked and out of room. Its only a matte of time before they start searching for a new location or a 2nd campus...but you can bet that no location will be considered unless it is light rail accessable.

The same can be said for airport expansion, growth at Central Terminal, Larkin District, a new convention center, etc the list goes on. Few people say I need to live near a bus route but many many say they need to be near a highway or light rail or one of the radiating streets out of downtown like Delaware, Main, Seneca or South Park

Thank you Paul and thank you to everyone else on the debate panel.

Joshua...40 years ago my parents lived on the East Side as it was going down hill fa