Buffalo Rising Online

"Where would our new station go?"

we don't need a new station. we have central terminal.

time to expand metrorail!!!

If/when an advanced rail system comes to Buffalo the Central Terminal would be the perfect choice for a 'new' station. It would be a premier facility with its old architectural charm and in my opinion be a catalyst for development in surrounding neighborhoods. A connection at the Terminal from high speed rail to the local light rail would help the downtown core as well.

One of the major reasons (if not the major reason) for the slow rail trip between Buffalo and Albany is that Amtrak has to share the track with shipper CSX which I understand gets priority because the railtrack is theirs. There was a time (up until the 1960s I think) when passenger rail had its own track and people really moved from NYC to Chicago via Buffalo. Until this issue is resolved (i.e., a new track built) I don't know how any express train can be feasible although I'm all for it.

Jefferson there were actually 4 parallel tracks travelling between Buffalo and Albany which could be used for freight or passenger service......they were removed and replaced with the thruway.

and your correct because of CSX and their freight line....passenger rail between Buffalo and Albany is limited to 60 miles per hour which is why it should be outrageous for albany to be spending all their money upgrading rail between albany and NYC....when parity of funding could yield so much benefit for upstate.

lastly.....the exchange street station....downtown if ever built would require trains to enter and then back out in reverse......but the Central Terminal has no such need and should be considered Buffalos preferred multi-modal station (high speed rail, rail, light rail, taxi, bus and parknride)

and of course if the Kensington was truncated at Jefferson and the I-190 was truncated at Louisiana (so we could eliminate the Elm-Oak arterial) then we could make Fillmore or Jefferson the new arterial and revitalize practialy the entire urban eastside in the process.

i dont think it makes financially. why spend the $ on a nyc-buf high speed rail when you can just fly there in an hour for cheap?

but buf-tor is another story. that would be an extremely smart investment.

i think a downtown station makes most sense. but if there's a light rail connection from CT do DT then that would be just as good.

I think I just said that?

The big thing is getting the 2nd track built for upstate....and demanding parity of funding between upstate and downstate for high speed rail....upstate requires much more investment and its not investment that can wait.

The Toronto connection isnt even in our hands since high speed rail Buffalo to Toronto would only go so far as the International RailRoad Bridge or the Whirlpool Bridge.....the rest of the way is up to the canadians. Until Ontario/Ottawa builds high speed rail between Toronto and Niagara Falls....not much is going to happen here.

But Buffalo to Cleveland, Buffalo to Pittsburgh and Buffalo to Albany are all areas that deserve funding.

and the sooner we build the light rail extension to the airport the sooner we can reactivate the Central Terminal as our multi-modal station.

I'm still waiting for that high speed connection between Buffalo and Albany...I remember back in 1999/2000 I was waiting at the Rennselaer Amtrak station for the train back to Buffalo, and looking at the model display of what the proposed high speed Amtrak train & tracks looked like...it said "Coming 2001"...still not here.

Definitly need this new kind of transportation option for the area. There is too much wasted time at the airport. Additionally, the amount of pollution given off in an aircraft per passenger is much higher than in an automobile and extremely higher than from a train, especially when the train is powered by a source such as hydro or wind power. Many states are starting to look into high speed rail on their own due to the fact that the feds don't seem to care that much and keep cutting amtrak's budget. I agree with that the central terminal would be perfect for a station. Extend the metro with the airport corridor line through the central terminal and it would be perfect

The supply of petroleum is dwindling fast while the demand for it is skyrocketing, especially in China. And last I checked, Earth isn't manufacturing any more of it. We have burned through cheapest of the planet's oil endowment in little more than a century. What's left will cost more energy to find, extract, process, and transport than the energy supplied by the end product. In a business or household, when expenses exceed income, we call it bankruptcy.

This means that the era of cheap gas, and by extension cheap motoring and flying, is ending. We need to invest in rail and we needed to do it, like, 20 years ago. But late is better then never.

yeah unfortunately I agree that there would need to be more in the CT to make it THE station for Buffalo. When people take trains they almost expect to get into the heart of the city. At least when in Europe that is exactly where they are. You walk out of the station and you are right there! It is fantastic! Granted CT is close enough that I think it isn't unreasonable to imagine a simple transfer to a local line into downtown as a viable option but without that smaller connection to DT the terminal is isolated. It deserves to be a stop but we need to make it simple for the commuter to get to where they want to go (DT / Airport) both of which would lie along the SAME line as the CT, it does make a lot of sense.

I also totally agree that we SHOULD privatize the rail network but also the highway and roadways instead of subsidizing the highways and roadways (which is partially why trains went under because the private companies couldn't compete with a federally backed highway program).

Also a great reason to train instead of fly for the 7-10 hour trips is because most trains, even amtrak, have plugs and tables for your laptop. No worries about battery life, hell if you have a nation wide wifi service you can have internet the whole time. There is plenty of room to move, stretch relax, wine and dine. I just find them a much more pleasant trip instead of the get naked so we cna make sure you are not a terrorist and cram you into a little sardine chair with some guy who is sick next to you with recycled air. yuck.

I totally agree that without high speed service the trains here are crap at best and I would still choose to fly for very long trips, out west etc. but to be in a train for 2 hours (high speed 400 miles @ 200 mph) or sit on the tarmac for that long alone. I think it would be a win for the economy and a win for the environment.

Good point gazaah on the NYC daytrip idea. I've done the London----> Paris EuroStar train that was about three hours using the Chunnel. Early morning train in, last train back at around $200/RT.

Of course London and Paris are two World-class tourist and business destinations. But Buffalo/Niagara Falls could surely draw some residents of the NYC area and a few of the millions of NYC tourists each year I would have to believe. One thousand? Ten thousand? Who knows. If it was fast and affordable, why not? Imagine NYRanger fans hopping the train for a Sunday afternoon game vs. the Sabres. OK, maybe not such a good idea.

Well if the skyway is used to create a high speed rail between cleveland-buffalo-toronto then i guess it can stay

The High Speed Rail System is not meant to compete with air travel. It is meant for short distances of 300 miles or less. However 300 miles puts Buffalo in range of Toronto/Hamilton/Niagara Falls, Erie/Cleveland, Pittsburgh and Albany.

It is meant to complement an overly clogged, overly congested and now near impassable security at our nations airports....and the same overly clogged and overly congested status at our interstate highways.

Its also a national security issue to have an alternate means of dometic travel if a national emergency shuts down our nations airports.

ALSO, PASSENGER TRAVEL IS BEING BROKEN UP AND BECOMING THE RESPONSIBILITIES OF THE STATES. THIS HAPPENED WHEN AMTRAK WANTED TO SHUT DOWN UNPROFITABLE LONG DISTANCE TRAIN ROUTES AND THE STATES OBJECTED...THIS IS A STATE PROJECT...A STATE PROJECT THAT NYS DARE NOT IGNORE.

I cant comment about the acella...but I can tell you that since upstate is going to require a separate passenger track we should have a clean slate to bring the best possible service.

What we have to demand from Albany is very simply equal parity of funding per mile for upstate and downstate. The idea that for 10 years all money on high speed rail will be spent between albany and NYC says exactly what is wrong and why upstate is dying from disinvestment.

Over a trillion dollars was spent by the federal government prior to 1971 to establish air travel as a viable means of transportation and airlines as potentially profit making enterprises. The decline of rail travel and the difficulty amtrak faces coinsided with massive government investment in other travel means, notably air (and of course highway). Taxes on the airlines and air travelors will never cover the initial investment in air travel by the federal government. Additionally airlines are still not profitable as nearly every major airline has been through bankrupcy and many have received government handouts. Railroads however are always held to a different standard and that somehow they should be self sufficient and profit making. This will never be as it has never been with air travel.

ok Al Alo, 30 posts in a matter of hours....I think a copy of this needs to be sent to: -Mayor Brown -Buffalo Common Council -the current County Executive and current county legislature (and then again to the newly elected) -Higgins, Hoyt, Clinton, Schumer and the other state and federal representatives -and lets not forget Spitzer, Silver [***POST AUTHOR'S INAPPROPRIATE COMMENT WARNING***]*(downstate jews that only care about downstate) and Bruno

to demand parity in funding between upstate and downstate and extra funding for upstate until our passenger rail travels at the same speed as downstate trains. In other words extra funding for upstate passenger rail until our 60mph passenger trains travel 110 mph just like downstate trains.

*al-alo has inserted a warning to this comment

This would be huge for the city, we were once a rail hub, we would make a great rail hub again.

day trips to cleveland and T.O. via rail would be awesome!

Don't forget that the Central Terminal HAS the capacity to include not only high speed rail, but Amtrak lines, freight lines and light rail. And its complex is large enough to include bus and taxi services, as it was designed to do and did for so many years. Its 2 and 1/2 mile distance from downtown is not an issue and really never was. Airplanes, automobiles and highways killed passenger rail service in Buffalo, not a short hop to the downtown hub. People travelling from NYC or Chicago to Buffalo never once said "if only it just went another 2 and 1/2 miles". They didn't know the difference.

The only problem is that the terminal doesn't deserve to languish another couple of decades while NYS government decides what's best.

What would you consider demolishing downtown to make room for a rail yard big enough to accommodate high speed rail? Because of the multimodal flexibility, Central Terminal really is the logical choice.

What concerns me here is how easily the terminal and its east side location is written off entirely. We're talking 2 and a half miles, not a 20 minute commute to Tonawanda. In NYC, you get off at Grand Central, take a subway line or cab another few miles to your final destination. Same way in any big or mid size city.

We have to stop thinking so small and so exclusively. Why can't we envision a plan that includes some of the assets we already have?

RonR and Carl...I dont know what city you guys are living in.

The Seneca Casino is in the Cobblestone District which is rapidly being developed (well rapid for Buffalo speed)

then across the l-190 there is the Larkin District which is rapidly developing (well rapid for Buffalo speed)

and then roughly what is it 5 blocks north off Fillmore is the Central Teminal.

and the downtown Fruit Belt extends all the way to Jefferson Ave....which is again only a few blocks away from the Central Terminal.

So...no its not the Central Business district but in the 5+ years it will take to get our empire line trains up to 100mps and then the additional 10 years to boost them up to 200 mph....our downtown boundary may well extend to include the Central Terminal.....the eastside is starved for development projects and this is a darn good one.

PS and thank god they built the Central Terminal at is exact location otherwise it would be demolished right now. The only other Great Lakes City and Erie Canal City that has its original Train Station is Cleveland. I think that says alot! We should be greatful we have this asset....and we would be stupid to put to many assets in one location especially when the Fruit Belt, Cobblestone and Larkin are all doing very well without a multi-modal station.

But what we need is for our local elected leaders to demand parity in funding for upstate high speed rail! Right now all high speed rail funds are being spent between Albany and NYC. This has to stop! Our passenger trains only go 55 mph......we should demand this be remedied before any money is spent downstate.

I agree with MMiller that the Central Terminal is the best choice for the hub, it has all the right-of-way neccessary and a fabulous structure already in place. Major transportation centers all over the world use trams to shuttle people from the main terminals to parking and city destinations...I envision a satellite terminal where the DL&W used to be at the foot of main street. The cost of acquiring right of way to make the the DL&W location (or any downtown location for that matter) isn't justified since we already have it at the original CT. Let's utilize the assets we already have.

carl and ron, trains at the exchange street location have to pull in and then back out and thats not easy or convenient for any kind of train...regular, freight or high speed.

carl and ron, you have have a train station off south park becaue there are no train tracks there..and a station needs to have existing tracks and right of ways for a train station...in fact it needs multiple incoming and outgoing train trackage. The Central Terminal has that while the exchange street location no longer does.

lastly I never mention walking....I said the central terminal was a few blocks away from major eastside growth areas linked to downtown: cobblstone, larkin and Fruit belt.

But I do agree with you that the Central Terminal should be the site of another Center for Excellence and it needs to be connected to the airpot and downtown via light rail. If you have read the 30 story hotel and casino complex proposed by the Senecas....the light rail might get a demand from the Senecas to be extended to both the Buffalo Airpot and Niagara Falls.

RonR, "Diverting to the CT would only benefit lines coming from the East. " Very true. No lines come from the West, which is Lake Erie. And the water level rail route along the lake and river is still in operation.

Forgive me, but I fail to see how the Cobblestone District, just a mile or so from the terminal, is any more viable and any less "awkward" a location?

It seems to me that we are too limited in our thinking. This high speed rail project, if it ever happens, is decades away from happening. The conditions of the east and the west sides may be entirely changed by then. But if not, why disregard current infrastructure, like the Central Terminal and surrounding rail lines and acreage, for notions that only apply to Buffalo as it is today? Not to mention the laws of eminent domain that would have to be enacted to bring high speed rail lines downtown. And if the east side is still undeveloped at that time, why not use this chance to help it along?