Buffalo Rising Online

Cry me a river!!

These suburbanites have some gall to whine about these "tolls." First off, no one forced them to move to Tonawanda or West Seneca.

Second, no one forces them to drive.

Third, look at the tolls paid in NYC just to get from one borough to another.

Last I checked, the Belt Parkway, Staten Island Expressway, Van Wyck and Clearview were part of the interstate system. So much for the junk thesis about these tolls being unique.

More mis-directed granstanding from Higgins. He's the best city councilman in Congress. Glad he had time to work this issue in between voting for torture, the PATRIOT act and the war in Iraq.

Can finally take the 190 into the city and not worry about driving down Delaware all the time!! But, with everything else in Buffalo, we'll believe it when we see it.

Think of this additional possibility: physical removal of the toll plazas could free up that sliver of land along the water for a continuous waterfront path.

The sad thing is that we aren't getting off scott free. They're just going to raise taxes by $14mil to compensate for lost revenue.

I for one think all highways should be toll roads....Pay as you use is very fare. If you need highways to get around then you should pay for them. The case of these tolls is another matter. This system is inequitable because they only collect this highway tax in the city. The tax burden is put on the city and not all the other towns in the region...towns which rely much more on these roads and should be paying a higher percentage for their upkeep and construction.

True, but that 14 million will be raised from the state as a whole and will not be noticed locally. And as for suburbanities, yes they left the city but that does not mean that we bar them financially from entering the city. They are an important part of the downtown economy and cannot be ignored.

Is this really gonna change the economy around here? It has been raining and snowing for the last 3 weeks- that is why no one wants to live here

Well its good a bad, now all of use who don't pay for the highways have to pay a little more in our general taxes but those then again it is an unfair system between Buffalo and other upstate cities.

The more equitable way to handle this would have been to put tolls on all the other interstate highways and then lowered the taxes for everyone. This way the people using the roads would pay a higher proportion of their maintenance than those who don,Aeot.

E X A C T L Y ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! !

I think that if they don't remove the tolls they should add them to the 33 and 198 because much of the traffic on them are from those avoiding the tolls. I knew a guy who would come from Grand Island, get off at the 198 and take Elmwood or Delaware downtown to get to work. And it's not like this guy would stop on his way to patronize city businesses. Jusst passing through. If we're going to have a toll to commute into the city, lets charge everybody or nobody. It's not fair to the 33 or 198.

These are ridiculous tolls--and demonstrates the slime in Albany government that has always treated Buffalo like the red-headed stepchild of NYS.

@ IRR Soldier - it isn't always suburbanites that use those tolls, I live downtown and I use the tolls regularly for work or visiting family.

I say that us WNYers tear down those toll barriers like the Berlin Wall.

Sorry, but I am having a hard time working up any excitement for yet another subsidy for drivers and cars. How come your highway and parking space are free while I have to pay as I go on the bus?

More cars = more pressure to turn decent architecture into deadly parking lots.

I agree with Steel: The highway system is expensive gold-plated infrastructure and those using it should pay extra. Airlines charge extra for first class, so should governments for highways.

The real opportunity lost here is the chance to redirect the I-190 tolls from the bottomless pit of Albany to funding the grand plans of decking over/downgrading the I-190 along the waterfront. The tolls could have provided a dedicated funding source for providing these essential capital improvements.

With no dedicated funding, it is unlikely in our lifetimes that we will see the city be reconnected to our most precious resource: the waterfront.

Not to get too far off topic, but what makes people think that all suburbanites moved from the city to get there? I skip the tolls anyhow, like the trip on the regular streets.

Uhhh... For all you (Primarily Steel and IRR) who don't think commuters pay to maintain highways, or contribute funds to roadwork, why do you think I pay nearly $.45/gallon in fuel taxes. Or $78.50 bi-annually to register each of my cars. Or ask a trucker what they pay in OTR highway fees, registration, road-miles taxes, and so on.... We already pay, and pay dearly.

The tolls are inequitable because I ALREADY pay NY more than any other state, except CA and MA, to maintain my roads. I don't complain. We have bad weather, and honestly, good roads with that in comparison. I DO complain however when this suburbanite needs to pay to drive roads that in the majority of the nation, where fuel taxes are lower, would be "free".

I am a suburbanite (And not ashamed, some space demanding hobbies preclude me from an urban home), I do come into the city for work daily, and to play at least 2 or 3 times a week. I like the city. I patronize the city. I shop, eat, and hang out in the city. I pay taxes on the goods I consume for the city. Hell, I'd do my Christmas shopping downtown, if somebody would revitalize Main St, now it's mostly on Elmwood and Hertel. I haven't been to the Galleria in better than 4 years....

I don't need to send $.75 to Albany every time I visit. I'd rather keep it here, and tip a waiter a bit heavier.

Just my $.02 from a suburbanite who loves coming downtown...

-Andy

I think we ought to flog any suburbanite who comes into the city as punishment for moving outside the city limits. Then we should set up the stocks, just like the good 'ol days and make them do some time there before they are allowed to enter.

But wait -- a lot of people don't really want to go into the city. Maybe we should just tear down the tolls then.

Swift-

Amen.

Now on to my tirade...

I love this board; but gott tell ya, this US vs THEM approach to the 'burbs is getting a little old. If the BRO people, the so-called enlightened group, can't figure out WE'RE ALL IN THIS TOGETHER, then Bflo really is in trouble...

Target the soccer moms who don't wanna come here.

Target the bad PR some of the towns give the city.

Target the news who portrays the city as violent, uninhabitable, and lawless.

And maybe, just maybe, CATER to the guy who lived in the 'burbs for 20+ years, with money, to move back downtown. Yeah, I said it. Make the city convenient... Don't turn it into a suburb, that'd be dumb. But, appeal to the people who had the resources to leave, and get them back downtown.... Surcharging them, and me, everytime I come into the city isn' t the answer. It WILL drive people to patronize other areas, like NF Blvd, and Transit....

-Andy

I think Steel and sbrof are talking about the larger problem of interstate highways in general. The tolls on 190 aren't going to make a whole lot of difference either way. But the interstate system is perhaps the most subsidized public work, and creates a terribly inefficient market for transportation. Subsidizing the highways and highway construction using tax dollars (including from people who do not USE the highways) is like giving a big check to the automobile industry. Train companies have to pay to maintain the railroad tracks, why don't car companies have to pay to maintain highways? It's completely inequitable and churns out an inefficient system of travel. Most every other good we consume is based on user cost... why not roads? And Andy B... OOOOOOH $80 every 2 years! Wow, that's totally going to take care of highway building and maintenence. The "costs to commuters" you cite are a joke.

Andy has hit the nail on the head.

We need to give people good reasons to WANT to move back to the city. Otherwise, we can post all the blogs we want and people will continue to vote with their feet.

More new housing stock and lifting residency requirements would be a start.

Reinmoose...

You missed the MAJOR point of my article. The $80 helps subsidize. The FUEL TAX and charges to people who drive a LOT more than I are the taxes I pay to keep roads going. I own 4 cars; I'm a car collector. It's part of owning them that I can't get away from..

Probably my most fuel efficient vehicle, my Maxima gets about 30mpg on the highway; I pay, last I checked $.435/gallon for fuel (I rounded previously, for convenience). I pay, rough math, on the highway $.0145/mile to drive, and maintain roads. I live 12 miles from the city (Hamburg). Each round trip costs me $.348 in taxes. To help pay for roads. Period.

Multiply that by the amount of people that drive in to or out of or around the city, and you can figure out quickly how much NYS, the Feds, and our local governments take in to maintin those roads we all (Yes, ALL) so dearly love and use.

I don't drive a lot; probably 15K mi/year. But I know people who do. My father in law owns an "on the road" business in C-NY. He does 75K miles a year. Figure that out. Ask a trucker what he/she pays. We do subsidize road construction, and improvement.

And, gasp! My fuel taxes also subsidize public transportation! Next time you jump on the metro rail; self funded at less than 40%, thank a commuter....

But, wait, we can't do that. They're suburbanites.....

The crux of my argument is drivers already pay to use roads, and subsidize other items with our fuel taxes.

You have a beef with how that money is allotted, take it up with your elected officials.

-Andy

No MOney, YOu hit it on the head...People choose to live elsewhere because of jobs, crime, high welfare costs, high healthcare, etc. not because of tolls...get real people

It comes down to equity....all this non-related city vs suburbs whining gets tiring.

Choices:

1) Drop the 190 Tolls

or

2) Put up tolls on 290, 390, 490, 590, 690, 790 and 990.

Either would be fair. I guess they are going for choice 1.

Its about time.

Andy B - I know there are studies that support your opinion on this matter as well as there are studies that support mine. I am not able to comment on a particular study, but perhaps I can point out a few facts that might help my cause in the context of the numbers that you cite. One reason Metrorail is subsidized to such a level to where it only pays 40% of its own operating cost is because the goal of Metrorail is different than the goal of highways. Rail and bus fares are subsidized because they would otherwise be unaffordable to the people who can't afford to buy a car and use the highway system (for which they are paying). Rail ridership is low because of subsidized highways, and rail would become increasingly self-sufficient with increased ridership. The "costs" of you driving your car are not solely the costs of building and maintaining roads. Studies that would support your claims do not take environmental impact, accidents, and the cost of building parking into effect. Adding these costs (many of which, the government ultimately ends up paying for in one way or another) would certainly make driving cars subsidized, even if the costs of road construction were already covered by the gasoline tax (which I have no reason to believe they are).

Just some thinking points.

Andy B - I know there are studies that support your opinion on this matter as well as there are studies that support mine. I am not able to comment on a particular study, but perhaps I can point out a few facts that might help my cause in the context of the numbers that you cite. One reason Metrorail is subsidized to such a level to where it only pays 40% of its own operating cost is because the goal of Metrorail is different than the goal of highways. Rail and bus fares are subsidized because they would otherwise be unaffordable to the people who can't afford to buy a car and use the highway system (for which they are paying). Rail ridership is low because of subsidized highways, and rail would become increasingly self-sufficient with increased ridership. The "costs" of you driving your car are not solely the costs of building and maintaining roads. Studies that would support your claims do not take environmental impact, accidents, and the cost of building parking into effect. Adding these costs (many of which, the government ultimately ends up paying for in one way or another) would certainly make driving cars subsidized, even if the costs of road construction were already covered by the gasoline tax (which I have no reason to believe they are).

Just some thinking points.

"Rail ridership is low because of subsidized highways, and rail would become increasingly self-sufficient with increased ridership."

So, the subsidy for the service you don't use should end so the subsidy for the service you do use increases. How typically Buffalo.

I think there is merit to the idea that those who don't use a service, like highways, should not have to subsidize them. There are a few services that I don't use that I wouldn't mind getting my money back on.

I have a car and don't use public transportation, so I shouldn't have to subsidize that. I don't use welfare, I shouldn't have to pay for that. I don't have kids, so why am I paying to school other people's. I don't get sick. I've only been to a hospital twice in my adult life for sport related injuries and paid for all treatment out of my own pocket. Why am I subsidizing medical research? I'll give up the non-driver subsidy to roads if I don't have to subsidize those things.

Here's Republican and former Buffalonian Michael Lewyn weighing in on how we subsidize the automobile and by comparison starve public transit:

The Taxpayer-subsidized Car Culture: Is Vehicular Freedom Really Free?

Why does everyone forget the Lackawanna Toll Booth on what is it 5 mile line road? I think its a pity that this Toll Booth was left out as one of the obstacles to the city.

Now if only we could get rid of the Elm-Oak Arterial and move the highway access ramps further away from downtown.

Honestly; if Metro rail would have come, as proposed, to the Southtowns, I'd ride it in a heartbeat. I don't ride the Bus due to the extra time (Like 5-fold) it would take me to get downtown in the morning.

I don't begrudge the subsidies. I LIKE public transportation. I'm from Philly, and one of the major things missing in Buffalo is a comparable system to LANTA and SEPTA (Philly's public transportation networks). I wish Buffalo would get it's head out of it's arse and fix that. It would save me money, and time.

I agree Autos do have additional costs. Environmental, and otherwise, some can't be quantified. But, if you want to stop people from driving, fix the public transportation networks. The $.75 doesn't, and didn't keep me from driving. Nor does the $100 I pay monthly to park downtown. I'd treble that to save 40 minutes each way, every day, for public transportation.

Bring the Metro Rail out; it'd drop me off a block from my building.

As far as Ben McD's comments on my dissapproval of the subsidy, my dissapproval of school taxes, and public assistance, etc... I think you're a little off. My wife and I are comfy DINKs, and plan on staying that way. Education is cheap compared to alternatives (ignorance), and strangely enough my wife is an addictions counselor for a major HHS agency in Buffalo; ex-SSI caseworker for a C-NY county. Why would I be against public assistance? Why would I not want the people she deals with every day to have a leg up? Are you that closely involved with the people in Buffalo who need/use such services? Wanna fish again? What you inferred, above, is wholly incorrect. Feel free to contact me if you'd like further clarification of my viewpoints, before you put words in my mouth.

I'm just PO'd at the us-versus-them attitude. Guys, deal with these simple facts:

People moved to suburbia because the cities didn't fit their needs/wants. For various reasons. The highways were built during, and after that exodus to support it. And the commuter traffic BACK IN to the city. Unless the cities change; they'll stay there.

Public transportation is used when and if it's a convenient alternative. It's not in Buffalo. When it is people will use it, not before. I can make it from Hamburg, to my office, in 15 minutes; try that on a Metro Bus.

-Andy

Andy,

You need to calm down and reread my post. I was commenting on a statement by Reinmoose. I put no words in your mouth. When talking about the different kinds of subsidies I used the pronoun I. That wasn't a mistake. I was referring to my views and no one else's.

Your rebuttal though proves my point. People, when liked to the particular subsidy, approve of it. When people talk about being abused by some subsidy, they are usually in favor of another subsidy that they benefit from. To your credit, it seems that you are in favor of both the road and rail subsidies, which is a fairer position than most.

To be truthful, I would get the gov't out of the business of building roads and railways. I prefer to let the market work its magic.