Buffalo Rising Online

Black Rock and Riverside were pretty much all white in the early 1970's except for a few black families in the projects. After being somewhat sheltered attending the neighborhood school a big change came in 1970. We were sent to the "new" West Hertel Middle School and integration became a part of life for us. The black and white kids did not mix much at all and this did keep conflict on the back burner. A couple of years later at Riverside High School all hell broke loose resulting in the National Guard occupying our school. Black kids and white kids were attacked at random which brought an atmosphere of fear and distrust. Adults of both races not only added to the conflict but some actually took part in the violence. I do not have good memories of this time and believe our education suffered greatly due to the fear and hatred that dominated that year. By senior year we began to get along a little better and some whites and blacks even became friends. As I have said before I believe integration was the right thing to do and we are better for it but at the time it was not a pleasant experience for any, black or white.

I think the racism that exists in Buffalo today is a result of the poverty that defines this city. It is easy to blame "others" for the problems that exist in our communities instead of looking at the real cause. Greed has resulted in a huge disparity in the distribution of wealth. The only way to make good citizen's and neighbors is to give all the opportunity to make a decent living, even those that may not be as bright or educated as we would desire. The "permanent underclass" should be an embarrassment to any decent American. Until we face this problem and demand change there is little hope of a better future.

Right on BlackRock. The problem is that many construe that to mean that thier tax dollars will be spent on more welfare for lazy cheats. The wealthiest country in America should be able to eliminate the continuous and self perpetuating chain of poverty that eats away like cancer in the inner city.

Those of us not in the 'permanent underclass' work very hard at not being a part of it. Greed's not the problem, lack of effort is. My son goes to kindnergarten at a well known public school. We do 30 minutes of homework a night (minimum), and then read a book. My suggestion to those that want to break the cycle you mention would be to do 45 minutes of homework a night, and read two books. There are no shortcuts.

Ben,

Are you saying this to the child of a family who does not have that work ethic. The child grows up knowing only one way of doing things, that being the way his parents do things. Many children are trapped in this cycle. They will grow up to perpetuate it.

My pre k children know the alphabet and all the sounds of the letters. They are doing rudimentary reading. There are children their age that don't even know what the alphabet is. Are you saying that these 4 year old children should buck it up and get off their lazy @sses? The problem is just not that simple.

Perhaps my issue lies more with blackrocklifer and his comment that "the "permanent underclass" should be an embarrassment to any decent American."

If the 4 year olds parent's aren't motivated, or lack a 'work ethic', I'm supposed to feel embarrassed? If someone watches tv twelve hours a day, I'd say that's a choice, not some social issue that proves greed is the root of all evil.

4 year olds do not make informed choices. They make choices based on their environment and extremely limited experience with the world.

You should not be embarrassed by the lazy TV watcher. You should be embarrassed that our country has no plan for or intent to change the situation that plagues the poorest parts of our country.

benfranklin- I agree parental involvement is key to success but I can remember a time when decent jobs were avaliable to anyone willing to work. This is not the case today because business has sold out the American worker to increase profits for themselves and shareholders. Shouldn't the richest country in the world be able (and willing) to pay a living wage to all?

Steel, as far as the plan goes, aren't all of these issues going to be handled by Obama? That is what he promised. Once the no good republicans are out of the way, poverty shouldn't be an issue for Pelosi/Reid and Obama.

blackrock, our country is losing wealth at an unprecedented rate. How would you pay a living wage to all? You see it that American business sold out the worker, I see it that consumers are satisfied with inferior goods made in countries that are worse off than ours.

Ben,

Obama never promised any such thing. That is just a phony argument. Do you want to have a real conversation or should we just spew some Rush Limbaugh nonsense?

What do you do about the 4 year old trapped in a cycle of poverty and ignorance? I don't have the answer. I do have an understanding of the complexity of the problem though.

It's amazing how casual conservatives and libertarians are about the fate of poor children.

The rhetoric here on both sides is simplistic.

Obama said he would change the world. I'm not making that up. I actually watched a number of his stump speeches, and he said it in each one (right at the end...just before the fireworks).

I'm not real comfortable telling someone how they should raise their children, just as I wouldn't want someone telling me how to do that job. How can a child be 'trapped' in a situation brought about by his/her own parents?

We have set-up programs like Head Start, Universal Pre-K, WIC, and the School Readiness Acts to help break the cycle of poverty for the "permanent underclass". There are numerous before and after-school programs, intervention programs starting as early as age two, and community outreach programs available to every family who receives any type of public assistance or is in contact with Social Services in Buffalo.

As Blackrocklifer aluded to above, the problem here is the parents of the poor who perpetuate the cycle of poverty. Generation after generation of poor families perpetuate the cycle by teaching their children more about the system than how to survive outside of it. They wish the best for their children, but wishes rarely evolve into actions. Too many families are looking for someone else to solve their problems, for more benefits, for more hand-outs, and for less work.

God helps those who help themselves, I follow this same philosophy.

The idea from BRLifer's 10:50 comment that racism is caused by not having enough government action against wealth disparity isn't confrimed by countries like France. Very soft safety net over there. So many social programs that working is essentially optional. For those who do take a job, it's next to impossible to ever be fired or layed off. They go about as far as any country can go to try preventing wealth disparity, short of full socialism. Yet still there's a terrible amount of racism in that country.

Lets all be honest, the "permanent underclass" I refered to is everyone's problem. It is the fault of the parents (or lack of) and the ghetto culture, It is the fault of the greed that has devalued the American worker for profit of a few, and it is the fault of government that has allowed and even encouraged two separate America's to develop. Work is needed on all fronts to bring change.

Atwater- I spent some time in Chicago a few years ago and was suprised by the large middle class black neighborhoods unlike anything here in Buffalo. I was also suprised how well blacks and whites of the middle class socialized together. Economic opportunities make good citizens regardless of race and poverty does exactly the opposite.

BRL - Anecdotes can be told on both sides I'm sure.

There's just as much chance the cause-effect is the other way around - people not burdened by racist hate perhaps are more likely to succeed in life because they're more likey to cooperate with others, learn from others, etc. - and eventually more likey to hold jobs that let them live in that middle class neighborhood of which you speak in which you observed better relations.

On the other hand, people with more racist attitudes might keep getting fired from jobs for that reason or other reasons to do with them being stupid or being jerks, and end up disproportionately populating poor neighborhoods bringing their hate with them. In other words sometimes racism might contribute to someone staying poor as much or more than their poverty contributes to them being racist. If you or I ever become poor we still won't be racists. I think my France example is good. Lots of government efforts to keep incomes more equal - and still a lot of racism.

Atwater,

What you say is true to an extent. Problem is that racism falls on both sides. You forget that the racism on the white side is responsible for setting up the poverty stricken ghetto in the first place. It would be nice to say OK we have a black president racism is now done. Thing is, 300 years of oppression leaves a lasting mark. The cycle of ignorance on both sides and the poverty it breeds can not be undone with a snap of the finger.

That really gets to the heart of what the original story is about. Life learning is much more that a classroom activity. As white American I had no basis to understand black Americans until I lived in the city. Things are very different today of course but we still strive to separate ourselves into groups in this country. This separation make it very difficult to solve the serious social problems eating away at our inner cities.

I didn't forget anything. It was just a blog comment, written in a balanced way, and without absolutes. It countributed one perspective to the conversaiton. Anyone reading it carefully can see, I didn't make any broad generalizations and wasn't claiming to explain every single g.d. aspect of the topic.

As often happens here with some people, you in your mind read in absolutes into it, and then tell me what I 'forget' about.

Excellent posts Heather!! Well stated. A lot of "talkers" on this site that feel that many of the poor have had no other choices. You can get a good education in any city school or a bad education in the top-rated suburban school. It is up to the individual and their family. Without a family support to help you and push you, it is a challenge to do so.

If so many of the posters here are concerned they should volunteer at one of the most deprived Buffalo Public Schools. That may do more to help the city than protesting demolitions of rat-infested homes or getting bike racks built.

heather- You are making the case that racism comes from distrust, ignorance, and especially misinformation. It is the lack of personal relationships caused by segregation of the poor (and minorities) that separate us. Stereotypes about different cultures soon fall apart when we are fortunate to get to know others as co-workers, neighbors, and of course friends.

and this applies to poor people

BRL - Where did you read that in Heather's comments? You have a magical way of painting racism and oppression by the wealthy into most of your comments. On the flip side, you paint pictures of the suburbs and the affluent with a very broad brush, assuming that someone from the suburbs or someone with money has no reason to be friends with minorities or the poor. That is an absolutely incorrect stereotype.

nothing like collecting welfare in buffalo and dealing some drugs on the side.....throw in some pizza and subs every night, a heat subsidy, and you got yourself a decent life style.....now only if the Bills could win a few games

Instead of talking about the people who have a choice let's talk about the people who don't have a choice - " the children ". It is very convenient to leave them out of the discussion.

And, Steel, that is the point. Not everyone prepares their kids for school before Kindergarten. Some don't even give the thought a passing glance. All this talk of choice and welfare and racism is merely a middle class (or more closely a middle American) perspective on the poor. The children have no choice about the parents they get nor the kind of environment they will grow up in. Unless there is something uniquely special about a child born into poverty or an exceptional family with middle class aspirations, most of them are doomed to remain life long members of the underclass. Sudies show that even with a Head Start experience kids lose the ground they gained by the second grade.

I went to a school similar to yours in Buffalo but not in a neighborhood such as privileged. For half of my sixth grade year while my parents were between houses on Grand Island and Kenmore, I had to attend what was then PS 65 on Skillen St. in Riverside. It was my first and last experience going to school with minority kids (courtesy of the Ontario Street projects). It was the worst year in my life for it felt like a year. The upside was that I was the smartest kid in the entire sixth grade and learned very little even though I had excellent teachers. Said teachers were distracted by poorly behaved kids who had very poor habits not having by even that age to have the prerequisite skills to be ready to learn.

Even at age 11 I knew that these kids were getting an inferior education and why. And, I reiterate, I had excellent teachers. So, even into mid childhood, where you lived played a significant role in student success. When you look at the whole package, children do not have choices. I strongly contend that those who profess that all children arrive at adulthood with even the right experiences, attitudes and social skills can make it by merely working hard and making the right choices is ludicrous. But, that's what happens when we deign to superimpose our values on others who do not play on the mythical level playing field we Americans would love to insist this country is.

I have been involved in my community for many years and as a landlord I have first hand knowledge of the working and non-working poor. I have no illusions that they are all tragic victims but I also know quite well just how challengeing life can be without the middle class safety net so many take for granted. Poor people don't have the connections for good jobs or even housing. They don't always have dependable family members or even parents to help in an emergency or just as a mentor. There are some that take advantage but most work at crappy jobs (that we don't want) and are paid crappy wages. We as taxpayers subsidize their food, shelter, health care, etc. instead of demanding a decent working wage for all.

blackrock... I find that I'm in agreement with much of what you write, until you make the statement (repeatedly) 'demanding a decent working wage for all'. Who are we demanding this from? My understanding of the job market is that it's a competitive place, where skills dictate compensation. If I'm missing something, please explain.

Blackrock, you are such a caring person. If you are so concerned go adopt a poor family in CrackRock. Stop complaining and do something.

benfranklin- Presently taxpayers make up the difference when employers do not pay enough for a person to stay out of poverty. Raising the minimum wage would go a long ways towards reducing the need for taxpayer subsidies. The saving to government could be used to offset the increased cost to business (maybe a tax break). Business would benefit from a more stable and content worker and the taxpayer would benefit from less social services.

georged- My community credentials are solid, Tell us what you have done for our city.

pegger- well said, My experience living in a pretty poor neighborhood makes me skeptical of the comments made by white bread middle class folks. Their perception is not the reality and the complexity of the problem is much bigger than they see or care to admit.

Pegger - Are you insinuating that poor parents are incapable of raising their children effectively? No child has a say in the choice of their birth parents, are you saying that we should remove children from poverty stricken homes to have them raised by more capable wealthy parents, sort of like the third world countries who sell their babies to adoption agencies to rich Americans can adopt them?

BRL - You should know better. Get off your f...ing high horse already. Rich White Bread Middle Class folks just keepin' the brothers down. Right? You know the true struggles cuz you be keepin' it real by livin' in the city. You are all about telling everyone else what they should do with their money, but you still haven't addressed the root of the problems mentioned above.

Are you that ignorant that you cannot see the role of the individual plays in being poor? You are all about blaming the system for letting the individual down, as someone explained above. Maybe the individual needs to own their situation and take steps to make it better instead of sitting by and waiting for one of the RICH WHITE BREAD MIDDLE CLASS to take care of their situation for them.

Businesses would not benefit from a higher minimum wage, businesses already struggle to keep up with the minimum wage, SSI and other benefits that must be paid for all workers. It hits the small and mid-sized business owners the most. I know from your previous comments that you primarily see businesses as huge, faceless, greedy institutions that are only in existence to line the pockets of the executives at the expense of the laborers, but this is just not the case for most businesses. Most Americans are employed by small to mid-sized businesses, and these businesses struggle to keep up with the ever escalating burden placed on them from myopic government policies aimed at one particular subset of the population.

The problem of poverty is huge, and most Americans understand that. What they don't understand is how someone can sit on their ass taking hand-outs from the government and can still feel that they are above a minimum wage job no matter what we pay in minimum wage. The same complaints existed when Minimum Wage was $2.25 an hour, and will exist if we raise it to $15.25 an hour.

I am interested to see what your socialist oriented mind feels about HeatherSmiles' comment in the church thread. That is pretty scary stuff.

Buffalo is a big time poor city, no wonder people are so moody there. Everyone wants a good paying job and some just want a hand out and not too much help for either groups. No wonder people are still fighting with each other.

Whynot- you are right, We gotta stop those crazy kids from choosing to be born to poor parents, what are they thinkin?

BRL - Don't be an ass!

What we need to do is stop blaming the system and do something about the parents. We have numerous services and programs for every child in NYS, but yet we still say that they are at a disadvantage and incapable of thriving.

Very interesting comments. Heathersmiles angry rant about poor (read black) people making babies and living of the rest of us appeals to the base instinct in all of us. Tell them what they want to hear heather, that the poor are dragging us all down and it their own fault and the middle class are burdened by the hordes of poor people living large while we all go to work each day. Don't consider how complex this issue really is and certainly don't admit that we have created this "permanent underclass" from years of racism and segregation of the poor.

Rocker: if you think the underclass was created by racism and segregation and accuse others of not being aware of the complexity, I think you need to dig a little deeper. It's not just segregation and racisim. Keep digging and find out how complex it really is

Rocker: if you think the underclass was created by racism and segregation and accuse others of not being aware of the complexity, I think you need to dig a little deeper. It's not just segregation and racisim. Keep digging and find out how complex it really is

carlmalone- never claimed it is the only reason, just that it is the one people find hard to accept.

"Don't consider how complex this issue really is and certainly don't admit that we have created this "permanent underclass" from years of racism and segregation of the poor. " Read it yourself, i don't see room for other factors. Please explain the complexity and other factors

HS: Don’t come down so hard the rock. He’s showing his depth of understand of a complex subject by simply dumbing it down to black vs. white and following it up with incoherent attack applying his own botched logic showing a complete misunderstanding of the subject matter. I give him/her an A for ignorance and B+ for a faulty cognitive mental process. I second Jackass!

heather- maybe your "definition of poor is not black" but your 18:48 post starts out with a crime on Jefferson Ave. and continues to "too many people making babies" and to "GET A JOB, walmart target, etc are not racist" . then its on to "just because you are African American doesn't mean you are going to be poor" and finally you quote statisics "birth rate for minority and so called oppressed is 40 times higher than affluent/ white" Sounds like your talking about black people to me. But hey,at least you found a kindred spirit in Sweetie

Of course thee Buffalo flaw is the "hyperlocal" viewpoint. We could point to someone on the street that isn't "dressed for success" and wonder why or point to some mother telling her child to "shut the fuck up" and wonder why. We could call them lazy and then watch as more and more people become "lazy" as we continue to lose jobs. To a person that can no longer afford the food at Wegmans--we can suggest that they go to Big Lots or Aldis. To a person without a home computer(and a library of pirated software) we could suggest that they go to the public library. We could offer up anecdotes and band-aids based on lazy logic or we could evolve and notice emerging technologies, business models, economic trends, demographic/political trends etc. and capitalize, carve out a place for ourselves, make money, gain cultural and political influence and start to rebuild the fabric of our community.

i think the poor have a fantastic opertunity to move up the social ladder in america. you get free public schooling up to the age of 18. then after that, the government will pay IN FULL for your college tution if you go to a SUNY school. state schools also are very lenient when accepting teenagers from inner city schools, as they know many of the schools themselves are failing. what more oportunity can you have?

buffawakening- you ask "what more opportunity can you have?" that's easy, don't be born poor. But I do agree public education is at least avaliable to the poor. Having the support and home stability to see it through can be tough for many.

Whynot, I reread my comments and nowhere can I find an implication that children should be removed from poverty homes. My sad point is that the kids get what they get. They have no choice good or bad. To think that all parents regardless of race and class are equal is also ludicrous. Here is one that you can really bite into: stupidity is inherited. All psychometric studies say it is so! Check out "The Bell Curve." It proves that the old adages such as "The apple doesn't fall to far from the tree," and "You can't breed work horses and get race horses," just might have some validity. Did you hear me advocating for forced sterilization? I surely hope not!