Groundhog Day: Is This One Doomed Too?
The building was designed the late 1890's by architect and nearby resident William Sydney Wicks for the Unitarian Universalist Church. Many parishioners arrived for services via Belt Line Railroad which had a station within steps of the church (still standing). The Unitarian congregation disbanded in 1912 and sold it to Parkside Lutheran which used the building for 12 years, until they built a more grand church for themselves at Wallace and Depew in Central Park. In 1924, the City of Buffalo purchased the building for use as a library. In spite of its reportedly being the second busiest neighborhood library branch, it was closed due to county cut-backs in October of 2005 and has received little or no maintenance since then. Reports of its condition are dire. Some say the building will suffer serious perhaps irreversible damage if left in this condition through another winter season.
The Parkside community association reports: A tour of the library on May 8, 2008 was sobering. The window to the left of the front door has been partially boarded up because would-be thieves broke in on a quest for copper pipes. Foundation masonry needs tuck pointing at the entry porch. Water has entered through the flat roof over the 1961 addition that housed the children's reading room; floor tiles are warped and dislodged. A telltale line at the base of the children's bookcases bears testimony to how high the water rose. Mold is growing on the wall going downstairs to the basement community room. Many more floor tiles, believed to be asbestos, are dislodged there as a result of a broken drain pipe outside. The condition of the sub-floor is unclear.? A dank odor hangs in the air. Books and computers still wait for patrons. The children's reading tables and chairs stand vigil. Dishes remain in the staff kitchen, and the small plastic basket with a pencil and rubber bands is on the check-out desk.
The description is haunting. It is as if humanity just disappeared and left everything in its place to rot away. This wonderful, delicate little building is being left to nature, to just disappear because...why? It sits at 1659 Amherst Street in the middle of the prosperous and highly desirable Parkside Neighborhood. It is a building that could suit any number of new uses including a very attractive and unusual residence. Yet it sits unmaintained. Why? ? ?
Reportedly, the City is offering the building for sale at $75,000 but is not actively marketing it through a realtor. Last fall, a request for proposal was issued by the city's real estate department. The lone response was allegedly rejected because the financial backing was deemed inadequate. The Parkside Community Association was initially interested in leasing the building prior to the RFP but since then the city has declined to rent the building.
Other buyers including a photographer looking for a live/work space sniffed around, but these went nowhere. The most intriguing proposed use is for a new permanent home of the Grover Cleveland Presidential Library. Cleveland's grandson came into town to promote the concept over a year ago, but this idea seems to have stalled. In the mean time, the city holds onto the building, collecting no taxes, apparently making no improvements, and asking a steep sum for a building in poor condition.
Is there a plan other than to allow mother nature to bring the building to its final state? Why not offer this building for $1 to someone who will invest in and use it? Or how about free, plus no taxes for 5 years? Is the city trying to make a profit on this structure? What is the logic in letting it fall to the ground? Is "frustrating" an adequate term for this situation?
For information on this building, contact John Hannon, Director of Real Estate for the City of Buffalo. Let's hope there is someone out there who is perfect for this little jewel.
Images are from Buffalo as an Architectural Museum http://www.buffaloah.com/a/amherst/1659/index.html More images are available at that site.
Comment Options
sbrof
I remember walking here to do book reports in grammar school from St Marks down the street. Always was busy and was a very nice library overall. It is a total shame that nothing, not even maintenance has gone into the structure. With such a stable neighborhood around it, it is a shame that this isn't going anywhere or sold. If offered I would bet that someone would snatch it up to convert to a couple apartments or even as a grand single family house. Has some nice land and good mature trees.
The city should really put this into private hands. The city / county has no business owning property like this. They just become forgotten about in the city's utterly dysfunctional real estate division. This like the ones on Main Street in Allentown are just waiting for the demo crew almost like the city wants it to happen.
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JSmith
It really is a beautiful little building. It's not exactly in "the middle" of the Parkside neighborhood, though - more on the fringe. $75K is probably not a terribly unreasonable asking price, depending on exactly how much work is required to stabilize the building. I remember reading somewhere that the law requires the city to obtain a "market price" for its property, so I don't believe they can just dump it for $1 to anyone who asks.
Still, I think the city could do a lot better at marketing these properties. They should be listing these buildings on the MLS and have realtors actively pushing for sales. Seems like a no brainer to me.
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dixiechick
To demo this would be a shame. Yes, I understand, intimately, what it means to take a building/house, gut it down to the studs if needed, and bring it back. A lot of vision, sweat labor, tenacity and patience.
The asking price may be appropriate, but only if someone is willing to bite. If not, then do what HUD Used to do years ago, and lower the price, perhaps bringing it up for auction, BEFORE it is irreparable. (which appears to be just around the corner) Working with other organizations/local, state, and federal, to secure low cost loans to make this building inhabitable - either for a single family house, or a non-profit, or community organization.
The last thing this neighborhood needs is to lose a building of this stature. A 'cornerstone', if you will.
Why can't the City work with other organizations to make this process doable?
The livery...well, that was due to the neglect of a prominent private individual who one would think would have had the good sense to either take care of his property, or know when to get out/sell, (without putting neighbors at risk of falling bricks and walls, and without having the taxpayers foot the bill to preserve or demolish a grand piece of architecture. Not to mention...the cost to the families who had to vacate their premises due to his neglect, at their own expense!)
Pro-preservation, or not, this scenario will continue until there is some cohesiveness between the City, the public and private sectors in appropriately addressing the issues of these timeless buildings.
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Hoss
IT SHOULD STILL BE A COMMUNITY LIBRARY. REOPEN IT AS SUCH.
We have three public golf courses within city limits, but no library to represent one of the cities most stable neighborhoods? WTF???
Lynn Marinelli dropped the ball on us for this one.
A real friggin' shame...
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Colin
1. I know that the city claims they need "market value" to sell these places, but since when is some arbitrary number market value? If you get offers on a place, aren't those offers an indication of what the market will bear? If the only offer is $1, isn't that market value?
2. I think Mickey Kearns has a staff person in a satellite office in one of the libraries that was slated to close in South Buffalo. That way, the building stays open (at least sometimes) without much additional cost. That might be one way to help keep others open, or at least make sure that they don't rot too long without someone noticing.
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Tuco
I agree, it absolutely should be a community library. I live in another stable neighborhood (South Buffalo) and the old Cazenovia branch has been converted to a library/community resource center. A couple book drives filled it, and they have ample online access. Rather than an empty building, it's now a community asset.
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Tuco
I hope SOMETHING can be done with this building...it sounds pretty far gone.
Boy, when the BECPL abandons a building, they ABANDON a building. They just left all the books and computers sitting there, intact? Yet they cry about money every single year?
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al-alo
id love a Grover Cleveland presidential library, but i think i know a contributing factor to it stalling. the library movement also has a strong political aftertaste (as do many things here, but that is a different discussion).
the library's main backers appear to be from the Free Buffalo crowd. the library is on their website (http://freenewyork.org/) as an affiliate along with the libertarian hall of fame. the website states:
"The Grover Cleveland Library is a project of Free New York, Inc., a nonprofit, nonpartisan public policy research corporation based in Buffalo but serving New York State"
the creation of a library based on a political agenda (no matter what that is) is bound to undermine support and limit funding sources. its like a Helen Keller museum being pitched to promote the socialist agenda (yes, Helen Keller was a socialist).
the elimination of the ties to the Free Buffalo/NY movement is the only realistic way this project could move forward, no matter how good their intentions are. any good credible library would either be sanctioned by the American Association of Museums or the American Library Association. with the current arraignment, neither seems likely.
as for myself, i would have loved to been involved in a project like this. but i wont be. at least until any political agendas are removed.
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benfranklin
al, if someone bought this and somehow combined a business use, with a library, would this void it from being sanctioned by the American Library Association? How important to the average patron would this sanctioning be?
I'd consider doing some type of community center/libray, but I'd think the hours would be fewer than the standard library. I buy and sell a signiicant number of books each week. You'd be surprised on how inexpensively you could stock the shelves. You could have a certain 'rare' section that might not circulate, that would draw some people.
The flat roof on the right would seem to be the key. If its strong enough to support polystryrene (sp?) insulation, covered with 4x8 sheets and then torch down, that would be pretty easy. Obviously it could be more involved.
When this was a library, was parking an issue on the side streets?
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al-alo
ben,
if it were 2 separate entities that shared a space, there really isnt an issue. id say the problem i have isnt really the sanctioning, the issue would be independence.
a library or museum should not be a mouth piece, nor should it be justification for any political view. a library/museum should provide honest and impartial facts. any possibility of anything less fatally undermines the institution's credibility.
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benfranklin
al, thanks for the response. I checked the 'free ny' site, and have a better understanding of what you're referring to. Besides the political angle, they aren't afraid to ask for a donation, to the point it makes you question their motivation.
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al-alo
then you also have the funding aspect:
no city/county/state/federal official is going to help get money for any political group, let alone one with a small base. ditto for local foundations like Oishei. lets face it, that is where the money comes from to get institutions like this started, whether or not libertarians would accept it. :)
so basically that leaves you with private money. so now you need a wealthy libertarian patron to fund the enterprise. not that they arent out there, but the pool is a bit smaller.
frankly, that potentially leaves a group without a funding stream. and im not sure i would feel comfortable transferring city property to group or individual that could not provide a realistic business plan - although, im not sure that is the case here.
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buffaloed
I too used this library when I was a youngster, also attending St. Mark's school. The building is second to none as far as city libraries go. The building was in rough shape to begin with, and coupled with about 5 streetside spots, offered little to motorist patrons. Yes, the side street was available, but it is a one-way in an inconvenient direction. While the building is great, the BECPL is not in the business of historic preservation of buildings- Just books. Just look at how quickly they tore down the old central library for their international style behemoth. A recent paint job in 2000 will preserve her for a few more years. And as for the flat roof, the problem does not stop there, the roof problem also involves the gutter system, it is not your typical exterior situation, creating a very complicated system.
As far as the neighborhood goes, Parkside would love to have it in their little mitts, but it truly belongs to the isolated and small Vernon Triangle neighborhood. Check that little gem out sometime, it is bordered by Amherst, Main, and The Belt Line railroad. If their weren't a string of unsightly little shops on their section of main street, this community would be a mini-Allentown.
So yes, BECPL closed this gem of a branch a few years ago. Some fought with signs and petitions and meetings, while some supported the closing. Myself, I supported it, knowing full well that the BECPL was stretched far too thin, and eliminating some branches would strengthen the organization as a whole. What this article does not mention is that this library is two short blocks from the Amherst Street subway station, and while it goes nowhere for the most part, it does take you straight downtown to the Central Library, my library of choice as a kid, even though the Fairfield was just as close as the station.
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jstraubinger
I'm beginning to wonder what is going on down at City Hall. Mayor Brown is turning out to be a bigger dud every day. Is he an improvement over mayor Tony? I don't think so. He fires Tobe, the first real economic development professional as Planning Director in Buffalo's history and after a long line of unqualified incompetent political hacks-what could the real reason be? Has the political pendulum swung in someone else's corner? Suddenly parking meters are removed from Elmwood and nothing is in place to accomadate alternative methods of transportation. Various buildings fall apart or are falling apart; churches are up for demolition. A beautiful building like the Fairfield library is left to rot. How did the county, responsible for the libraries, even the closed ones, end up handing this building over to the city? Any abandoned building has its copper piping grabbed at the first nightfall. Complaints are mounting and little is being done to address them. And Lo and Behold!!! The Control Board is being defanged. Mayor Brown loves to talk about all the investment going on in the city. Well, Mr. Mayor, if you want to see that continue and you don't want to demoralize the growing but fragile belief that Buffalo is finally getting up off the mat, lead the city and make those who work for do their jobs. All the no response or an hour later response from calls by middle class and/or new downtown residents to the police department, especially since there is a station at Main and West Huron, is going to put a big dent in downtown living unless it's taken more seriously. Ask yourself this question-the partments at 210 Ellicott rented out faster than anyone anticipated. This should tell you that there is a sizable amount of demand yet nothing new has beenb announced. What are you and your adminstration going to do to encorage more apartment and condo development downtown? I'm not ready to give up on Buffalo but I wonder if you are?
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benfranklin
Al, I wouldn't have written the first post if I needed to rely on significant outside financing. I have experience rehabbing properties larger and older than this. I don't see this as a business proposal you could resaonably present with a straight face (to a bank or otherwise). As a 'breakeven/hobby/I've already got 5000 books in my house' this could be interesting.
Buffaloed, is it a 'yankee' gutter, rather than hanging on the outside, its 'built in'? Are the 5 spots in front available to this building?
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ElmwoodBoy
There has been one improvement: a fancy new blue light camera across the street. It has been placed there to record the Library's decay by the astute ones running the City. I understand this is the reason Rich Tobe was canned.
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Sal
I'd take a shot with this building. Anyone know John Hannon or how one could buy this property?
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al-alo
Ben,
as far as the outside financing goes, i was refering to the library proposal, not yours.
but id like to also point out one diff between a rehab and what the FreeNY people have planned. with free ny its a rehab AND a library (or whatever).
museums are not inexpensive places to run. despite what some other "museums" think around town, you just dont throw a shingle out and declare yourself open. there are artifacts to be sought, aquired, cataloged, deaccessioned and disposed of. there are exhibits to design, build and write. all of which, should be managed by a museum or library science professional. not only is it professional ethics, but museum artifact mismangement can also have legal ramifications.
whether you as an individual wanted to run a business operation within those wall is a differnt story alltogether - even alongside another entity. a business like the one you had proposed is of course free to do as it chooses. if you do pursue it, ill be the first one to puruse the shelves. i wouldnt suppose you will have lay away?
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benfranklin
Hey al, I took a quick look around this morning. The flat roof with 'psuedo' yankee gutters, on the right part of the building is just asking for trouble. I can see how they wanted the addition to match the original, but I've never seen a gutter like that on a roof with no pitch. Kind of asking the water to run down the inside of the wall.
Digging to the right of the property that would need to be investigated.
I will look into this further. That being said, I'm not sure I'd publically comment on the proposed price, just seems like a lot of building, with some nice architectural detail, in a decent neighborhood.
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onestarmartin
I don't believe the price is holding it back, in fact, at 75k, it should of sold ages ago if the city was actively trying to sell this a jewel. For a such a poor, broke city, stories like this annoy me knowing there is money to be made by the city if they would just pull it together. But somehow, I think I'll poop a gold egg first.
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benfranklin
onestar, I agree that the building is reasonably priced. Finding a profitable reuse is really the issue. The high cielings, etc. made it difficult for the library to keep it up (heat), same will be true for any potential buyer.
If you do have an idea for a big, high cieling reuse, the Catholic Church has a couple dozen opportunities for you. On the surface, any one of the churches would seem to be a bargain, from a 'what would it cost today to build' valuation. Valuation based on future cash flow, considering upkeep, makes these properties worth significantly less.
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Activist
With the thousands of buildings that were built in the 1800's, we as a city are facing some HUGE nightmares. This is devolving into rotting buildings, most, if not all, having historic significance. There are no policies in place upon which decisions can be based. There is no master plan that lays out the management of all of these buildings. HELP!!! Even those in city hall who are preservationists at heart are left to solve preservation problems without guiding principles on a piecemeal basis while under intense political pressure coming from the mayor's office to solve things. What a mess! That means that solutions have to come from city residents who know what they're talking about. Those solutions have to be aggressively advanced in the political arena by people who know and understand the political lobbying process. That's a whole lot of work requiring different skill sets, but if we don't do that, our gorgeous city will literally rot around us all.
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mjman4
i will buy this building for $75K. who do i need to contact?
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sbrof
Hell for 75K I would buy this also... Talk about a potentially killer house. Close to a subway stop, enough land for your own geothermal heating, gardens, yard, walkable to the zoo a great grammar school, the park. As people have said the price isn't holding anyone back it the the sheer ineptitude that the real estate division in the city is.
Go ahead call them. I guarantee after 2 weeks you will be no closer to buying it than blogging on this site.
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scsa35
Contact John Hannon, Division of Real Estate at 851-5275 .
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mjman4
thanks! calling him right now...
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reflip
It seems like there must be people out there who know why this keeps happening, over and over again. There must be a better way to do things, and people out there must have some knowledge and ideas. We need to get together and push for reform.
Have there been attempts to organize? Has City Hall come to the table to explain their processes? If "yes," then what became of those efforts? If "no," then let's do that - now. Count me in.
Could Neighborhood Associations take the lead by organizing community events together with relevant City Hall department heads whereby they create an inventory list of properties that must be either sold and preserved/rehabbed ASAP or demolished?
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JimOstrowski
Free NY has been trying to acquire the building for several years with little or no cooperation from the City. We have offered to buy or rent but can't get to first base. They would prefer to have the building vacant and decaying I guess.
We have contacted various local colleges to become our partners in this project such that the library function would actually be administered by the college so the utmost professionalism would be maintained at all times.
I don't have time to respond fully right now but let me just say that Free NY is the best group to do this project because, frankly, we really do love Grover Cleveland. The more I find out about the man, the more I like him but I have admired him for years and said so in my 2004 book, well before this project was even thought of.
As I told my class at Canisius last semester, he was our last Jeffersonian president.
Follow this link for a recent documentary about all this:
http://blog.freeny.org/?p=3405
Our website is http://groverclevelandlibrary.org/
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reflip
Why is City Hall not cooperating? What goes on inside their offices that prevents anything from ever happening? Do we know the answer to this question? How come, as people say, you call them and then nothing happens?
More importantly, what can be done about it? How can "the people" exert some political pressure (funny concept, I know) to get desired results?
Is there anyone who has worked within the system who can offer up some ideas regarding what needs to happen in order to get results?
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bc71
Jim,
Couldn't access either of the links you posted.
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sbrof
reflip, the real estate division has long been the dumping ground for political hacks. When the pressures gets put on inspections, permits etc etc nothing happens there you want to know why? Because developers and people who have politicians in their pockets aren't the ones champoining a cause. Get paladino on our side about that department and then maybe something would happen. Without money the city doesn't give a rats ass by this or any other property they own. Inspections work their butts off, so does the OSP and plan review but everyone I know in city hall has nothing but issues with the real estate division.
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CitizenKane
This city is all about petty bureaucracy and political fiefdoms. Someone outside the loop would have better luck buying real estate in the middle of Lake Erie than in Buffalo.
Read the following story to get a sample on how Buffalo "develops" real estate:
http://artvoice.com/issues/v6n51/selling_us_out
Shame on you John Hannon!
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Wellington
Why is it every time there is an article like this (which is all to often lately) there are pages of post of people outraged. but yet nothing is ever accomplished. I love this site and and everything it represents, but when the hell are we actually going to do something about it? I'm tired of reading about the the cities neglect towards it owns treasures and history. So the hell with them is there not some organization that we can form to control of these issues instead of wishing for city hall to do something while we watch bulldozers tear down the rest of the city.
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AtwaterLouse
bc71 - Both of those links just worked for me, so the URLs are correct. Maybe too many people tried accessing them at once when he first posted them.
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AtwaterLouse
JimO - If isn't too rude to ask (maybe it's public record eventually anyhow), was your group's offer price to the city at least in the ballpark of what's being discussed?
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reflip
Ok, so everyone knows this is a problem. What can be done about it? Do we have to just sit back and take it? Is there literally no solution - real estate will just be a black hole forever and buildings will keep getting demolished despite purchase offers? Must we fight the same battle ad nauseum or can we find an avenue to affect change in the system?
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buffaloed
Ben- Yes, the 5 (or 6) spots in front of the building are available to the building, but they are street spots, so they are available to anyone.
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Colin
reflip --
PUSH is trying to get the city real estate department to actually help people buy city-owned properties. Check them out.
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reflip
Thanks, Colin. I will contact them and ask if I can get involved somehow.
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al-alo
Jim O.
if you found a university to work in partnership with FreeNY I would be absolutely shocked.
unless the library/museum is completely independent in actuality and appearance, no learning institution would or could work within those limitations. let me tell you, I WANT A CLEVELAND MUSEUM. he was an honest man, a pretty decent president, and - like all good Buffalonians - love of beer and a good time.
my question to you is: would you separate FreeNY and a library? would you want to visit a John Adams museum operated by the Federalists?
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JimOstrowski
I think we need to back up. Is there some rule book about how presidential libraries operate? If so, send me a copy. Most of them are run to venerate some very mediocre men. Do you really believe they are run by some objective apolitical scientific panel? If so, I'd be shocked.
The fact is that there is no brick and mortar Grover Library and, before we came along, and the Presidential center people came along, no one was planning one. So, to suggest that it's a good idea but we should back off seems absurd to me. It was our idea and I think that counts for something.
That said, we intend to operate it according to the highest standards of professionalism in every sense. For example, we are planning a debate to promote the library: "Was Grover Cleveland a great President?" and we will seek a qualified scholar to argue that he wasn't.
Anyway, we intend to do this project, Fairfield or not. (We are already doing it on the web.). We just feel that the Fairfield is a great place for it for many reasons.
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UPSboy
Living in this neighborhood, I believe that something has to go in there. This library had the 2nd highest readership in the city and yet they still closed it. It wasn't supported by drive up patrons, they were all walk up. It is a travesty that the city is letting it rot so rapidly. I believe that Mr. Ostrowski, even though he and his group have good intentions, won't get any where. They have been a thorn in the city's side for too long. And you are not going to get it for nothing. I believe there is a children's museum looking to get in there. That would be great! I also have heard that Waldorf School was looking at it for a satelite kindergarten school. But I think that that is pie in the sky too. But I know this. The longer it stays empty, the more it will cost to get up and running again. Just my thoughts.
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al-alo
Jim,
Yes there are codes of ethics and legal requirements for library and museums operations.
See the American Association of Museums: http://www.aam-us.org/museumresources/ethics/coe.cfm http://www.aam-us.org/museumresources/ethics/index.cfm http://www.aam-us.org/aboutmuseums/standards/index.cfm
or the American Library Associations official wiki page (a really neat concept, but im off topic now): http://wikis.ala.org/professionaltips/index.php/Main_Page main page: http://www.ala.org/
Highlights of the new Regents Rules for Chartered Museums and Historical Societiesfrom the Museum Assoc. of NY (MANY): http://manyonline.org/NYS-Standards.htm
NY state says "A museum or historical society that wishes to organize as a nonprofit education corporation must do so by petitioning the Board of Regents for the issuance of a charter. " See: http://www.nysm.nysed.gov/charter/
assistance from the AAM, MANY or ALA would be advisable. trust me, its a lot easier to start out correctly than to try and remediate the situation ex post facto. and nobody wants a letter from Andrew Cuomo to ruin your museums day.
inevitably, a museums charter will be reviewed by the state. it seems difficult for me to believe that the suggested current museum structure will be acceptable by NYS.
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JimOstrowski
Thanks for the legal advice.
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JimOstrowski
I took a quick look at the code of ethics cited above. I see no problems with it.
I don't toss around the term Jeffersonian lightly. You may recall that it was he who helped found the Library of Congress. The First Amendment, which protects the right to have libraries at all, was in large part a Jeffersonian creation.
So, again, this notion that a Jeffersonian think tank is unsuitable to found and run the first presidential library devoted to a Jeffersonian president, is an utter mystery to me.
Logically, such a library could be run by (1) Jeffersonians; (2) Hamiltonians, or (3) those who couldn't care less or don't know the difference. I choose option (1).
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al-alo
A quick point, Jefferson or Jeffersonians did not and do not RUN the Library of Congress.
Libraries and museums hold a unique status in the United States and most of the world. they are inherently non political. as a presidential museum, the standards should be even more strident. any sort of motives, whether perceived or actual, destroy an institution's credibility. without credibility and independence, a learning institution is nothing more than a mouthpiece for whatever agenda. I can turn on cable news if i want that.
there isnt a library or museum in the country run by a group with any political motives. some may CLAIM they are, but they are not. go ahead, take a look.
ill say it again, ill cant imagine youll get a charter unless there is a clear seperation of organizations. but do whatever you want. without a charter you wont get university, gov't or foundation support. without those, you wont get much further than a webpage.
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JimOstrowski
We refuse to accept government money of any kind by the way.
The president of the Bush Library is Brent Scowcroft, a Bush family flunky.
I think that pretty much destroys your thesis.
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al-alo
an individual, qualified or not - a flunky or not, is not an orginizational philosophy.
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JimOstrowski
We refuse to accept government money of any kind by the way.
The president of the Bush Library is Brent Scowcroft, a Bush family flunky.
I think that pretty much destroys your thesis.
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al-alo
i guess that pretty much destroys your thesis.
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STEEL
Anyway, Pretty sad about this building isn't it?
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benfranklin
Jim,
If you don't accept public money, why would you attempt to 'rent' the property from the city? I may think there should be a library for Richard Petty, but I wouldn't say much about til I had the cash to make it fly.
I have a soft spot for your groups libertarian philosophy, but your approach has the ring of a vegetarian complaining that his hamburgers overcooked.
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al-alo
and btw, if you are asking any public university or college for assistance, monetary or otherwise, you are asking for public funding.
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AtwaterLouse
al-alo - A private foundation of Wilsonians operate the Woodrow Wilson Presidential Library. According to their web site it sounds like they disagree with your statement that all libraries are non-political and completely free of political motives.
http://www.woodrowwilson.org/about/about_show.htm?doc_id=428368
"Our Vision ...To ensure that Wilson's ideas and ideals related to public service, governmental responsibility and international engagement play an important role on the American and the world stages. ...
http://www.woodrowwilson.org/about/about_show.htm?doc_id=428368
. .to the end that the said property may be forever set apart as a National Shrine, dedicated to the aims, ideals and purposes for which Woodrow Wilson lived and died...
How is openly promoting Wilson's world view not political?
How would it be different to have Jim's group who promotes Grover Cleveland's views of small limited government operating a Grover Cleveland library? There should be a separation between funding of the library and anything else, but ideologically I don't see how having libertarians operate Cleveland's library is any different from having internationalists (or interventionists, or whatever one wants to call Wilson's views), operate Wilson's.
Are you going to start badgering the Wilson Library operators to cease and desist all political bias?
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al-alo
Louse,
do you really think that the Wilson center is operated by an orginization of Internationals or Interventionists? really? nor is it operated by a political group.
that said, they are playing a bit fast and loose with their wording. and im sending a note out on the subject. so to answer your last question: yes.
and i dont see a separation, delineation, or partition between the Cleveland lib and FreeNY. show me, please. im not trying to be sarcastic. i really want one to be there.
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al-alo
Louse,
do you really think that the Wilson center is operated by an orginization of Internationals or Interventionists? really? nor is it operated by a political group.
that said, they are playing a bit fast and loose with their wording. and im sending a note out on the subject. so to answer your last question: yes.
and i dont see a separation, delineation, or partition between the Cleveland lib and FreeNY. show me, please. im not trying to be sarcastic. i really want one to be there.
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AtwaterLouse
al-alo - It's not about what I think, but what they themselves say on their own web site. I didn't hack into it to type it.
As I said, use whatever names for Woodrow Wilson's views that you want. My point isn't to attack those views or disparage them. But it is a political philosophy and they make clear they're in favor of it, directly on the web site of that library. So does that make them a 'political group' according to your definition? Maybe so. How does it not?
About Cleveland Lib and FreeNY, time will tell what separations are put in place if the library ever happens. I'm not associated with either of those, never met Jim, etc. The groverclevelandlibrary.org page says: "Our application for tax exempt status is pending. If and when we are approved, we will begin to accept donations of Grover Cleveland books and memorabilia and look for a suitable location for the museum.", so maybe the details aren't final yet.
Keep us posted about what those Wilsonians say in reply to your complaint email.
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JimOstrowski
We refuse to accept government money of any kind by the way.
The president of the Bush Library is Brent Scowcroft, a Bush family flunky.
I think that pretty much destroys your thesis.
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JimOstrowski
We refuse to accept government money of any kind by the way.
The president of the Bush Library is Brent Scowcroft, a Bush family flunky.
I think that pretty much destroys your thesis.
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al-alo
So Jim, are you not going to accept help, time or expertise from UB's Library Science Dept? Or Buff States Museum Studies or Art Conservation Dept? Or ECC trades students?
and ill say it again, an individual's philosophy is not an organizational one. if your block club president is a socialist, does it make you one?
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JimOstrowski
We refuse to accept government money of any kind by the way.
The president of the Bush Library is Brent Scowcroft, a Bush family flunky.
I think that pretty much destroys your thesis.
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JimOstrowski
Sorry about those last posts. I guess I refreshed my page after being out a few hours.
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STEEL
Kind of off topic here guys. It is getting tired.
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sally
JimOstrowski - Your cluelessness is showing yet again, in oh so many ways. You can't even figure out how to post!
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AtwaterLouse
Good grief, al-alo, if you want a G.C. library in Buffalo run YOUR WAY, then YOU should form a group to start one. Same goes for anybody. How many people or groups have ever started one in Buffalo? Let's see now... hmmm... zero! Okay so this guy says he wants to start one. As long as he follows the law, wtf business is it of anybody's what political philosophies he supports? If for some reason you don't trust him not to misuse donated funds, then don't donate.
The city should simply put the Fairfield building up for public auction.
If Jim's group is the highest bidder, so be it. If Ben Franklin is highest, that's fine too. Whoever bids on it should be told they'll be held to strict but fair building code enforcement, so they should take that into account when deciding how much to bid.
This shouldn't be some big controversy.
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al-alo
hes starting a museum. he doesnt know best practices. frankly, i dont care is he doenst know what hes doing and i dont care if he gets in trouble with the attorney general of NYS for incorrectly managing the collection. or that it doesnt get off the ground because nobody would touch that model for running a museum. nor do i care if nobody takes a potential community asset seriously because of mismanagement.
im offering info and options. and like other museum on here, id be willing to help. but not under those conditions.
but then again, what would i know about museums, right? whatever.
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Colin
1. Why would what Jim proposes automatically be covered by all the rules that al-alo cites? I mean, I could open a "museum" in my living room if I wanted to. And a 501c3 organization has plenty of leeway in how it conducts its educational program.
2. The city should absolutely be selling this to the highest bidding qualified buyer. What the hell is wrong with John Hannon?
3. I'm hardly a libertarian, but I wish Jim (or whoever) good luck with this building.
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JimOstrowski
Yikes, "best practices," I hate meaningless cliches. How about "running government like a business?"
Those who wish to help with the project, let me know. I'm easy to reach.
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Einstein
Jim, you are putting too much "Liberal" in libertarian. Running government like a business means applying governance and diligence to decisions, holding employees accountable for work performed and output generated. I understand your simplistic perspective that "Government isn't in the business of generating profit", but that doesn't mean that government should be in the business of waste and corruption either.
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UPSboy
The Highest bidder? It went out for public bids and I don't think anyone bid on it. Or at least, they didn't give a good qualifying bid. The city realizes the value of this property and is not going to give it away. Mr. Ostrowski doesn't want to take government money, but he wants the city to sell him, or his group, the library for next to nothing.
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Colin
The city should not be in the business of sitting on properties in hopes of (maybe) one day getting a certain price that they pulled out of their ass. That's especially true when the property is rotting on their watch.
Jim has indicated that his group tried to buy the building. If he was turned down because someone else offered a better price, so be it. But that doesn't look to be the case, since it's still on the city's hands.
A big part of why people find the city real estate department so frustrating is these fantasy "market values" that they attach to city properties.
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