Buffalo Rising Online

Anywhere but on the water. Thank you.

Gag me with a spoon!

A new stadium isn't the answer. The Bills "problem" isn't the stadium, it's that the team can't charge the same prices or attract the same level of local sponsorship as bigger market teams. A new stadium wouldn't substantively change that.

It's odd that we're even discussing the Bills having a problem. They're valued at $885 million, up from the $25,000 Wilson invested in 1960.

i think a new stadium woud be great. it would not solve the bill's problem as colin pointed out, but it would help solve alot of the city's.

Buff- Solve alot of the city's problems?!?! Such as, and how so? Sure it'll take up 100+ acres of underutilized land and it'll be busy for 10 days/year. All for $500 million or so. Good deal! As stated above- the problem isn't with the stadium, it is with the market size and corporate $$$$ to put asses in boxes and premium seats.

if you put all the parking in structured or underground parking and build into a mixed use waterfront neighborhood, sure spend the 900 million, otherwise forget it. OP is good for me.

Exactly why would a metro stadium be a detriment? There are so many downtown stadiums that work so well, how is Buffalo somehow different than the rest of the world? When I lived in Pittsburgh, downtown on a football Sunday was filled with thousands upon thousands. Bars, restaurants, hotels, etc. ...and get this... pedestrian traffic!!!

The People of Erie County shouldn't pay a dime in taxpayer revenue for a new stadium unless the ownership, or partial ownership, of the team is offered to the People of Erie County. We should set-up a community based non-profit ownership structure similar to Green Bay's. I know that there are rules prohibiting this in the NFL, but the owners can vote to change these rules. Allow for community involvement and guarantee a future in Buffalo, or else forget about the stadium because it is just too risky for us.

I'm with Colin and Lulu about this. No, no, no, a million times no to taxpayer funding for a new stadium or convention center. Let those kinds of projects be privately funded as they are in some other cities, or nothing. Let the Bills stay in the current stadium (which as Colin points out isn't the problem anyway - but some don't want to hear that), or let them explore other options in the northern part of the Toronto-Buffalo mega region, or whatever they want to do where ever. There's way too many other more important priorites for public spending, and taxes are already way too high around here.

avarouge- help as in having a huge economic impact on buffalo. in 1996 the bills had a 115 million dollar impact on the economy. it has only gone up since then. employ more than 1,500 people part time and many full time. bring in 70,000 people to the city. fill the bars and restraunts. reintroduce the city to the suburbanites. im not saying you have to build it directly on the waterfront, anywhere would be fine.

but it probably will never happen. even if it did get funding, which it wont because we are dirt poor, city people like you would have a fit that the land that hasnt been used for decades will be used for a stadium. no, you guys would rather have it empty for future generations.

and as for your arugument that it will only be busy for 10 days a year. thats 10 more days than it is right now.

but all this is just wishful thinking. we could never afford somthing like this.

i usewd to think that a waterfront stadium would be the best use of our empty waterfront. i now have come to realize that this is not the case. i do feel the stadium should be downtown due to so many vacant brownfields. the brownfield on southpark next to the buffalo river would be a great place, as would the perry projects site consiudering there are already parking lots available at HSBC arena and the 190 is directly adjacent.

at the same time i like the ralph because its one of the largest NFL venues in the country currently and i cant see a new stadium seating anywhere close to what we have now. every new stadium that has been built in recent years seems to be around 60,000 capacity........thats nothing compared to our current 75,000 or so seat capacity which creates an atmosphere unlike any other in the NFL. also if a new stadium is built ticket prices are bound to go up. the reason the buffalo market is even able to sell out 75,000 seats is due to our old dumpy stadium which keeps the ticket prices low....i say keep the ralph for as long as possible!!!

GO BILLS!!!!!

There is nothing wrong with RWS. We have as many suites as do the Pats, for example. The problem is that they have the corporations that can pay $100,000 per game as oppossed to us at $100,000 a year at RWS. A better idea would be to put an 75,000 seat stadium in Ft. Erie by the racetrack or St. Catts. Still call them the Bills, but play 1or 2 games at RWS, 5 at the new place and 1 at Skydome. That way we are able to attract the kind of money from TO that puts us up there with the the bigger cities. I would not like to see it, but we will need to be realistic. Buffalo still gets the prestige and tha fans can realistically go to every game and the team will be making money and there is no reason for them to leave the greater Buffalo metro. I was adamant that the Bills stay full tiem in OP, but you can see that will not work. We'll lose them for good.

bills will be gone in 3 years anyway, who cares

i usewd to think that a waterfront stadium would be the best use of our empty waterfront. i now have come to realize that this is not the case. i do feel the stadium should be downtown due to so many vacant brownfields. the brownfield on southpark next to the buffalo river would be a great place, as would the perry projects site consiudering there are already parking lots available at HSBC arena and the 190 is directly adjacent.

at the same time i like the ralph because its one of the largest NFL venues in the country currently and i cant see a new stadium seating anywhere close to what we have now. every new stadium that has been built in recent years seems to be around 60,000 capacity........thats nothing compared to our current 75,000 or so seat capacity which creates an atmosphere unlike any other in the NFL. also if a new stadium is built ticket prices are bound to go up. the reason the buffalo market is even able to sell out 75,000 seats is due to our old dumpy stadium which keeps the ticket prices low....i say keep the ralph for as long as possible!!!

GO BILLS!!!!!

also, tailgating is the reason most people come to bills games!!!! if you take away the parking, you then lose the best part about the games aloow with a whoile lot of fans. no trailgating is a major complaint of canadians when the bills play in Toronto because its ILLEGAL there!!!!

Did anyone see what Goodell Said?

http://www.buffalonews.com/101/story/496398.html

This chump sounds like every high school football speech I ever got just before we got crushed by 52 points that heart was all that counted. Also eerily similar to when Rudy Giuliani gave the carefully crafted answer of "Because its New York" to the question of 'How he thought NYC could reverse the trend of corporations chosing to move there headquarters out of NYC rather than stay because of the high corporate taxes in the U.S. or high property taxes in the City?'

Things don't happen because you really really want them too, they happen for because you provide something someone else can't or because there's a lot of money in it, that's it. Thanks jackass, way to do you're best to protect you're local team.

Assaroni your a typical loser!

We as a region should be proactive on this topic. The politians should contact the bills, ralph wilson, and roger goodell. Relocation talk is nothing more then speculation. The Buffalo Bills is Buffalo's and New York's team to lose. We are the only team to actually play in the State of New York.

As with any good relationship open/honest lines of communication are the key to success. We need to have open lines of communication with the powers that be. We do not even know how much ralph makes per year. Some say around 10 million is a good estimate. I think he can make double or triple that if you bring in a proactive business man like tom golisano and a master marketer of the likes of larry quinn. We all know he does not maximize his revenue.(Ralph Wilson Stadium instead of HSBC STADIUM or Seneca Stadium) Why the Bills are making money is they carry NO DEBT. An 850 million dollar price tag is very high and would take decades to return for the new owner. Remember Ralph paid the same price for the bills as i did for my last car. If Golisano or Jacobs step up im sure they would be for a part community owned partnership similar to the green bay packers. Buffalo should not be scared... The bills have, do, and will succeed in WNY. With our connection with rochester, toronto, and history of fans all over the world it is time to secure the future. I am glad to hear this website exist, it is a small step in the right direction.

That petition the article links to is very extreme. It starts:

'We, the undersigned, support any and all measures designed to improve the City of Buffalo through the development of a stadium and convention center on the Buffalo waterfront. ...'

Any and all measures. Great, just great. At least it's good to see in the comments here that at least there's some real opposition to this.

1. I think RonR is right that there is some benefit to both the Bills and the area from a new stadium. I just think that those benefits would be fairly marginal, and probably not worth big time public dollars.

2. Anyone who cares about keeping the Bills in town needs to pay careful attention to how they frame this issue. The team doesn't need a new stadium -- or to relocate -- in order to be successful. The team is already wildly successful, a $25k investment that is now worth $885 million.

Wow- I agree with atwater and atwater agrees with colin, that rarely happens so we must be right. Stadiums should be payed for by team owners and financed by the fans. (or possibly the players since they got the big bucks)

This will never happen. Who in the world would spring the bill, and really for what?

The Bills will be gone, and Buffalo is not big enough to sponser events like the Final Four, as someone else mentioned (plus they would never be chosen.) As far as the UB Bulls...come on, they can't even fill their own little stadium.

Colin, you mention that the Bills are very sucessfully financially, which they are right now. That is because they have no debt. When Wilson dies they new owner will assume quite a bit of debt, if there even is someone in WNY that has that kind of $$ and is even interested. Do you really think that ticket porices would remain at the low level they are now? The Bills haven't even sold out games in recent years, and their last home playoff game was blacked out locally. Rich Stadium is antiquated by today's standards as well. Make-shift cheap luxury suites that have problems selling with no corporate presence in Buffalo.

So an owner that wants to keep a team here has to factor in buying a team in a city that is losing population at one of the highest rates in the nation, no corporate presence, one of the oldest stadiums, and a fan base that has not had a long string of sellouts-and prices are going to have to go up significantly to survive. Also factor in the fact the collective bargaining agreement is coming up, making it sure that salaries will not be capped as low.

Good luck finding an owner to stick it out here. LA is looking better all the time.

al-alo, #4 of your 18:22 list is mistaken. This group's petition is addressed to our city, county, and state govts and a bunch of politicians - asking them to take "any and all" measures for this. Do you suppose they're asking the addressees to fund it with their own personal money, or their surplus campaign funds? Sounds to me like this group is begging for public funding. If they change their opening and address it to Golisano, Jacobs, Rich, etc. and if they also change "any and all measures" to "any and all privately funded measures" - then that would be very different.

Here's how that group's petition starts:

'TO THE CITY COUNCIL OF THE CITY OF BUFFALO, COUNTY OF ERIE, STATE OF NEW YORK; MAYOR BYRON BROWN; MEMBERS OF THE BOARD OF THE ERIE COUNTY HARBOR DEVELOPMENT CORPORATION; CONGRESSMAN HIGGINS; AND MEMBERS OF THE NEW YORK STATE ASSEMBLY AND SENATE REPRESENTING THE CITY OF BUFFALO:

We, the undersigned, support any and all measures designed to improve the City of Buffalo through the development of a stadium and convention center on the Buffalo waterfront. We recognize that waterfront development will stimulate the economy, health, and vitality of Western New York and encourage spin-off economic benefits from its sports teams, tourism, and entertainment opportunities for citizens far and wide. We pledge our continued support to those who work to ensure that the vision of a waterfront stadium in Buffalo becomes a reality. ...'

(the shouting capital letters are how they wrote it - I'm not shouting that opening at you)

The problem is that there aren't enough opportunities for all athletes and actors, so too many struggle while the greedy few make millions. We need to distribute the opportunities to ensure that everyone who wants to do be a pro athlete or professional actor has a chance at it.

The higher priority is a new 450k sqft convention and conference center, preferably around a rewatered Ohio Basin.

The HealhNow, Richs & Buffalo State set the example for downtown growing north along Niagara Street

The Life Sciences in the Fruit Belt has set the example for downtown growing north along radial streets such as Main, Michigan and Jefferson.

The Central Terminal and Larkin District have set the example for downtown growing East along Broadway, Seneca and Exchange.

Now a new Convention/Conference Center must anchor the southern end of the Cobblestone District for downtown.

Only after a new convention/conference center are built should a new stadium be discussed because....in all reality...a new stadium has to be linked to a long term commitment to the Bills and to bringing Canadians to Buffalo for the games and staying in our hotels (instead of sending Bills Games to Toronto). This is feasible since many Canadians and Torontonians come for Sabres Games.

If this is the game plan then Buffalo is going to need the hotel rooms from the convention center first....of course if this is the plan then it wouldnt hurt to have the stadium, Niagara Falls, downtown and the Airport connected via Light Rail.

The success of the bills is going to require canadians and that means hotel rooms and transportation. Again it comes down to infrastructure!

Cleveland's airport is nowhere NEAR the waterfront...

I was too young to fully remember the last stadium controversy, does anyone have the details?

I remember debates about location and domed vs. open, etc... what were the arguments and are they still relevant today?

I always believed this is the key component to turning the city around.....however far fetched, if we were able to build a state of the art venue near HSBC arena and keep the Bills in town, I believe it would be the spark plug we are looking for...no city loves their team more than Buffalo...

sonyactivism, a new convention and conference center is even more relevant now because people do not want the travel expense so they are booking locally and regionally. That means that Buffalo doesnt have to compete with the same facilities that it once did.

Buffalo's Convention Center is smaller than Albany, Rochester, Syracuse and Erie, PA.....not to mention Cleveland and Pittsburgh. Furthermore, Buffalo also only spends a fraction of what those cities spend because Erie County will not give them the entire Bed Tax to promote our region.....

Furthermore, as we are learning from Bass Pro...just about anything of significant scale in Buffalo takes between 5-10 years so there is absolutely nothing wrong with pursuing this now.

LITTLE SPENDING TO PROMOTE THE AREA AND OUTDATED AND UNDERSIZED FACILITIES MEAN LOSSES OF HUNDREDS OF JOBS AND MILLIONS IN LOST REVENUE.

One other thing....speaking of convention and conference centers. The Buffalo State, Medaille and Canisius triad makes the Richardson a perfect location for a College/Community Conferece Center and this area could easily justify a hotel similar to the hotels and facilities we are seeing in Amherst.

Lastly, I will say that there are many reasons why its going to be difficult to keep the bills but for another reason its going to be nearly impossible for anyone or any corporation to get a bank to finance a billion dollars, especially for a sports team. The end of the story isnt written for the Bills but do not attempt to close the book.

EVEN WITH A STATE DEFICIT, THE BILLS ARE THE ONLY FOOTBALL TEAM LOCATED IN NYS...AND WILL NOT BE RELEASED FROM NYS EASILY...as we learned when Ralph was facing down the NFL on franchise contracts.

when ralph passes he wont be able to leave the team to his family due to the 45 percent estate tax (dont believe the line that his daughter doesnt want it, rather she cant afford it) therefore the bills will have to be sold. who in buffalo has half a billion dollars to buy the team?

The city/state/federal economies are a mess and we shouldnt count on any help to build a new stadium (500 mil or 1 billion for green as they're proposing) the owner would have to front the bill... unfortunately i dont see that happening.

i do believe tailgating would work downtown (it does in other cities), some restaurants/bars would see increased business (at the expense of those in op), there might be a few extra hotel beds filled but most torontonians stay downtown already. The biggest benefit (excluding the convention center because honestly thats just something thrown in to make the venue seem more usable) would simply be having a pretty new building downtown which looks nice on postcards.

dont get me wrong, i would love to see it, but i'm not holding my breath. this community should have stood up 30 years ago when they decided to build in op.

Teams that don't win don't bring fans. Fans that don't go don't pay. Teams that don't get money from paying fans don't stay.

Plain and simple.

lol...use the money to attract industry. for an area that has to use county tax money to put the name of the teams owner on the stadium instead of a corporate sponcor speaks vloumns!

I signed the petition, stating that I am in favor of a Downtown dome stadium. -J. Hall

Build a better Buffalo? How about starting with fixing the school system. Like any structure of this type of magnitude, to "Build a Better Buffalo" you need to start at it's foundation.

Allfit, I blieve, if memory serves me correctly, the land vested for the Stadium was similar to that of the Amherst Campus of UB. The reason UB is not located downtown, in my opinion one of the biggest blunders ever committed in city history (#1 believing the ships from the Welland Canal would backtrack and stop in Buffalo instead of continuing on to Detroit and Chicago) was due to legislators in Albany who had purchased the land, privately, and sold it to the State of New York to build on that very same land. A classic case of "Power corrupts, absolute power corrupts absolutely". It is my belief, people, correct me if I am wrong, it was a long time ago, Wilson was going to move the team and in the seventies there was suburban flight and War Memorial was in, what was then, considered to be a dangerous part of town; post race riots. I believe that the land was purchased privately and sold to Erie County at a hefty profit. Erie was pressured by the public to keep the Bills, pressured by investors of the land, a group of powerful people to build it there and the county placed it there.... Rich Products came up with a large sum of money to fund the state of the art scoreboard, hence naming rights.

Again, my facts on the stadium are somewhat vague but that is the best I can recall.

Look nay-sayers can stand opposed to a new convention center but none of you can see the bigger picture.

The bigger picture is simple....if Buffalo and Erie County do not build a new 450k convention and conference and hotel complex then the BED TAX is just going to be spent on unions and patronage and waste.

The savings from folding the BED TAX into the general budget provides and excuse for Albany to reduce its state aid.

Its the same pattern over and over...if Albany creates unfunded mandates and the more local resources are stripped into the general budget the more Albany rewards us with state aid reductions...the result is year after year our infrastructure and the jobs creating infrastructure get postponed, delayed or cancelled.

In the same pattern...if its not albany then its a civil servants union contract or as Brown demonstrates another 3 deputy mayor positions and stacks of patronage get created out of the general budget.

Buffalo doesnt get its stadiums or convention centers, it doesnt get its streets paved, sewars and water mains repaired (wasting 50%...explaining rates 50% higher than national average), curbs and sidewalks dont get fixed, signs and lights dont get maintained, trees do not get planted, neighborhoods dont get supported.

You can sight whatever statistics you want...but id rather have the (taxes) money dedicated to promoting tourism and financing conventions/conferences actually used for it rather than pissed away. Id rather have the building and the jobs and the promotions rather than have it pissed away via patronage, unions and albany.

Your basing your judgements that a penny saved is a penny earned. Yea but not in New York State government!

Downtown stadium. The bad idea that never dies.

The only thing Albany, Erie County and Buffalo cannot screw the taxpayer on are bricks and morter infrastructure!

I dont trust one penny of my taxes in the general budget!

You niaive sods can believe that a penny saved is a penny earned...but your fools.

For Albany, Erie County and Buffalo...a penny saved is a penny spent elsewhere

A PENNY SAVED IS NOT EVEN A PENNY SAVED, NOR IS IT A PENNY INVESTED OR A PENNY REFUNDED!

Give me a convention and conference center...and repaved/recobbled streets because then and only then will I feel like I got something for the taxes I paid.

But when I pay taxes and I see truant kids and have to spend $500-$1000 on new wheel bearings/suspension...etc....and a decaying city whose inspectors ignore troubled buildings to harrass any civic activist that dares complain they get off their dunkin donuts stool do their job.

NYS doesnt work that way....so yeah...Id rather have a $450k sqft convention and conference center rather than yet another bloated and whiny union contract, another deputy mayor, another albany unfunded mandated/cut in state aid.

The only way to turn Buffalo around is to invest!

allfit... as to stadium history they were also looking to build a stadium (with a dome) in lancaster, but the town voted it down.

Buffalo21st, you will never see your money spent on what you want, not when 51% of our taxes go to social services and the rest goes to keep city and county uinon members employed.

Also informative is the Brookings analysis that Bini's 11:25 comment above links to. Good comparisons of convention center "expected" impacts claimed when CC projects are being sold to the public vs what actually happens years later. It looks at a wide variety of U.S. cities who tried CCs. Also discusses declining long term trends for convention business.

Atwater- Wow- we agree again, 2 days in a row.

I sit back and laugh at all these articles everyday about how to rebuild Buffalo. I laugh because i already told people how to rebuild Buffalo and not only will it be nice but it would stand out not only around the country but around the world. . I know sit and just laugh at all the mistakes that are happening. What people dont realize is Bufflalo is a prime city just waiting to be taken up to that level no other city can match. Well anyway i come on time to time for a good laugh