Seneca Spinoff?
Inspired by STEEL's post a couple of days back, a few of us decided to head up to the American side of The Falls on Saturday. Not only did we want to pay a visit to the Winter Garden, we also wanted to see what kind of development was taking place around the casino. I wanted to see how much progress the aeronautical museum was making in packing things up for the big move to Buffalo (to be temporarily housed in a Town of Niagara warehouse).
Throughout the day we asked a few of the locals about some of the changes occurring in Niagara Falls. The interest comes at a time when Buffalo's Cobblestone District is seeing the initial signs of work on the $333 million casino. We wanted to know what sort of spin-off the American side was seeing... since the Canadian side has been reaping the benefits for quite some time. One of the first stops that we took on Saturday was to the top of the currently-being-rehabbed United Office Building (UOB) at a price-tag of $10,000,000. As STEEL posted the other day, this building was saved from the wrecking ball in the '70's, only to see new life now. Why no takers until now? I bet that if you asked Paladino (developer), he would tell you that the casino played a big part of his decision.
After spending some time looking out over the falls (onto the Canadian Side), we descended the stairs and headed over to see Cesar Pelli's Winter Garden. While we walked around the building I made a few inquiries (thanks to questions by BRO viewers) about the possibility of moving the glass and steel structure - the word is that it would be close to impossible. The expense to perform the task would far out-way the ultimate usage. As we walked up Old Falls Avenue towards the casino (top photo), we passed by the new Niagara Falls Conference Center - built at an expense of around $18,000,000. Other projects that we noticed (underway) while we were atop of the UOB: Crown Plaza investment (formerly the Hilton - tens of millions), rehab of a Comfort Inn Hotel and Suites, Hotel Niagara ($20,000,000) across from UOB, a new 27-storey tower where the water park once stood, and the Aeronautics Museum is the Seneca Gaming Headquarters (former Carborundum Center - bottom photo).
Since the Seneca Casino opened in 2001, there has not been a ton of development in Niagara Falls (American side). Seven years into the gaming operation it does look like developers and hotel owners are finally starting to make investments. Is seven years that long in the grand scheme of things? Can all of these investments be contributed to the casino? When you look at all of the investment that has taken place on the Canadian side of The Falls, it is easy to think that nothing is moving forward on the American side. The American side has been screwed up for so long that it is no wonder that investors have been so cautious.
So what will we see when the casino is finally built in Buffalo? Some say that we'll see a bunch of pawnshops move in. Once again, I bet that if you ask Paladino if he would have announced plans to convert the Fairmont Creamery (aka Arctic Freezer) into living accommodations if it were not for the casino… he most likely would have answered, "No". Savarino and Jacobs? They would probably say that it was more the Inner Harbor development that prompted their investments in the Cobblestone District. It will be interesting to see what eventually becomes of the DLW Terminal... the structure is situated directly in-between the Inner Harbor and the Casino. And of course the true test will be if any of the developers take advantage of the sprawling surface parking areas that can be seen around the casino development.
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JohnMartin
I am not affiliated with the paper, but Mike Hudson at The Niagara Falls Reporter has done extensive reporting about the state of the UOB and downtown Niagara Falls. Just in case anyone wants the actual story, head over to their site and peruse the archives.
Here is his latest column on Paladino:
http://niagarafallsreporter.com/lead2.26.08.html
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Downtownjunkie
Im not really getting what this article is stating? Are they mad that Paladino is investing his own money into a decrepit Niagara Falls eyesore? I mean did they think anyone would invest in that piece of crap building without any subsidies?
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Downtownjunkie
Im talking about the Reporter article not the BRO article.
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JohnMartin
The point is that Paladino was handed the building for free and hasn't done much to it in the time he has owned it.
"It's been six years, but there is no sign that the naive daily newspaper reporters assigned to the Niagara Falls development beat are getting any wiser when it comes to Paladino, who came to the city with a dollar in his pocket and was gifted with an $850,000 landmark building.
"I never had a doubt I was going to complete the project," Paladino told one of those reporters recently.
No mention was made of reality, which is that the project isn't complete, isn't nearly complete, and that the United Office Building is as vacant today as it was all those years ago, when Paladino first got his hands on it. "
Niagara Falls politics and development is so complex, corrupt, and laden with historical incompetence and malevolence...BRO is so incredibly out of their depth when it comes to reporting on it. They do it an epic disservice with this throwaway piece after a daytrip to the Falls.
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thestip
As to the UOB, the first office tenants have just moved in. The leasing for the apartments has also begun.
The smart thing that Niagara Falls has done was to invest the casino proceeds into infrastructure. Mainly, they have redone the streetscapes around much of the casino site and are slowly working out from there. The 3rd Street and Old Falls Street projects have greatly improved the look of that area. They did them right with bumpouts, brick crosswalks, decorative street furniture, etc. Very well done. Buffalo could learn a few things when it comes to streetscape design from these projects.
JohnMartin, I do agree that NF politics and development is ridiculously complex, hence the length of time it took to get the UOB project to the build stage. It is absurd what a developer has to go through up there. We all thought Buffalo was bad!
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Biniszkiewicz
I have had some real estate dealings with a well known highly regarded Buffalo restaurant owner. His friends in the business in the Falls are getting crushed by the casino. People only have so many dollars to spend.
The casino wants to keep its customers on the premises, so they offer a variety of attractions. They offer top notch dining at cut rate prices in order to lure and retain patrons. Yet the local restaurant operator can't retaliate against the casino (compete) by offering, say, better odds on gambling (it's illegal). Fundamentally there is an imbalance and injustice in this equation.
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sally
The Casino Restaurant prices are not cut rate - they are on par to a little above what you would pay for a similar restaurant off premises.
With a rapidly declining population in the City of NFNY the non-Casino restaurants would be closing with or without a Casino in their midst. in fact I am willing to bet that more closed in the five years prior to the Casino than in the five years following it's opening.
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sbrof
I agree with thestip.. If the city invests the proceeds from the casino the right way it could be very helpful to improving our city. If it means we get some proper street furniture, urban design, bike lanes, garbage / recycling containers etc. So be it. I think sound and forward looking infrastructure investments would change the face of many blocks in downtown. Often our streets feel drab and blank because they have cracked asphalt, horrid sidewalks, ugly lights. It is all worn and old.
If it takes the casino to bring into money for good infrastructure so be it. 3rd street in NF is a very nice street. Imagine that type of streetscape with our new residential projects, or around the new developments...
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MJWorthington
Look to the Canadian side and see the benefits of Gov't controlled casinos.
Look at the American side and see the benefits of sovern nation controlled casinos.
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ktl2277
Let's not forget that the casino in Niagara Falls draws a decent number of people from outside WNY, many from Canada. These are new dollars to the area, some of which would not be spent had a casino not opened, also lets not forget that some of the local people gambling here were gambling in Niagara Falls Ontario so at least their money is staying on this side of the boarder, it was going to be gambled anyway so why not get a piece of the action. Niagara Falls NY hotel occupancy was up in 2007 I presume that includes the casino and non casino hotels, I bet the Crown Plaza, newly remodled benefited greatly, does anybody know what the bed tax numbers look like for the past 5 years I bet they are increasing. This would show positive non casino hotel occupancy trends. Also 2 new hotels have been recently announced, or are being built in Niagara Falls, I know they are not downtown but new rooms in this city are a good thing. I have long thaught that corrupt entities like NFR were holding the Falls back, I mean the Casinos in Ontario "hold the people in ect... just like the American side but they were not shackled to a crook the likes of NFR. Finally The casino provides somthing like 3000 jobs with excellent benefits but I'm willing to bet that few of those jobs are held by people from Niagara Falls, There is a certain segment of Niagara Falls population who are so lazy, or drug addled, or whatever that they would turn down a $25 per hour job with full benefits if they were offered. Just like the Buffalo News reported a year or so back, Atlantic City still has somthing like 15% unemployment even though the Casinos in that town provide 40,000 full time jobs, more jobs than people to take them in that city but there is still a group who will not work.
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sally
MJW - Could you be any more simplistic? I think not. Go back to 1993 before either side had any Casino's and you will still see that the Canadian side was vibrant and alive - Clifton Hill, Skylon etc and the US side was still boarded up and vacant - United Office Building, Rainbow Mall etc. The rainbow mall has been largely vacant since at least 1988 more than ten years before the Casino came along,
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LivingForge
A little more information would be useful here. Who did you ask? Why should we (or you) trust their word on issues of engineering, materials, and cost? What is their stake, if any, in seeing this building torn down? What is the "ultimate usage" decided upon between last week's post and your weekend trip? What is the basis of the cost-benefit analysis that has been started, decided, and has condemned the Pelli winter gardens in the space of 3 sentences?
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phenimore
Niagara Falls has, for eighty years, forgotten what it can do to grow, and they continue to make the same mistake. The key to saving Niagara Falls is and always has been the people!
Not the original gorge-side factories, not the quirky tourist trap museums of the strange, not the later manufacturing businesses, not the power project, not the vast and destructive chemical companies, shredded wheat new city idealists, malls, or now not that casino! All of these of these pieces were once depended on to soley support a community and still are. They eventually fail, let the people down, or self-destruct and when they do it's disastorous for the town that puts all its eggs in one basket. Looking at the Canadien side we see success through diversity, they still have some element of all those things and make a constant effort to encourage new ideas and growth on a small scale. You can't pour water into a broken bucket. Niagara Falls needs to stop looking for a gigantic savior and get people willing to roll up their sleeves and fail on a much smaller scale until they figure out the recipe needed for success there. Investing in the infrasructure and the state park there is a great start.
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NewBuffalo
"Look to the Canadian side and see the benefits of Gov't controlled casinos"............
The canadien government has an entire different attitude towards its cities than the USA. Canada puts much more money into their cities than the american government. The US lets private investors build in american cities with very little money from the US government. The USA would rather give money to foreign nations to put them in their "political pocket" to control the world. ANY canadien city is in better shape and cleaner than american cities. Ever SEE slums in canada compared to the slums in the USA? Canada has no slums.........
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GDC
The difference between Niagara Falls and Buffalo is that BUFFALO has already been investing around the Casino Construction site and throughout the city...Anyone remember hearing about how Niagara Falls would jump to other investements after seeing how the Casino works out? Well, Buffalo doesn't seem to be waiting and already jumped in. So, I really don't see a need to compare the two cities, maby this means, Even MORE money can go into Downtown Buffalo after the Seneca Creek Casino opens.
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magnum
REGARDING THE WINTER GARDEN: "I made a few inquiries (thanks to questions by BRO viewers) about the possibility of moving the glass and steel structure - the word is that it would be close to impossible. The expense to perform the task would far out-way the ultimate usage."
What about taking all the glass out, door off, etc. and converting it into an outdoor structure? I think it would be pretty cool looking and it would be a great away of avoiding the demo ball. Now go back and ask please :)
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ktl2277
If the senecas build another hotel tower and some more casino space than the Falls site could probably be producing perhaps 1000 more jobs. That is development that Niagara Falls needs, that's 1000 more families with health insurance ect that maby did not have it before. Also the local share of revenue rises this year or next the community might be seeing 15 million in 08 or 09' from the casino, that's probably more than the CITY collects in taxes from all other NF businesses combined. Now getting that money to produce good things like lower taxes, paved streets, and spin off development is the challenge, but the hard part seems taken care of the money is rolling in.
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sally
John Martin
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Auburner
Man, that is one butt ugly hotel they have there in Niagara Falls! It looks like a Super 8 on steroids.
Maybe if the Loonie stays stronger that the dollar, which it looks like for the next 20 years, the Senecas will do something about taste in design.
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RisingDamp666
If the State of New York would just get over itself and allow Vegas style gambling in Niagara Falls, there would be an impact. Indian casinos aren't enough. Why is the Canadian Side so much more vibrant and successful? Because they have the best view of the falls! That's it. To compete, Niagara Falls NY has to have the best view of itself. And looming architectural travesties, vacant malls and derelict Winter Gardens aren't helping. "Big" won't work on our side. Imagine if this town had the intelligence to retain its old downtown and create a Saratoga feel. That, juxtaposed against the vulgar, plastic swirling rubbish across the gorge would draw not only more tourists, but a better class of tourist. Oh well, time for another convention facility...
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ktl2277
Thinking about spinoff development, the Senecas are building a Robert Trent Jones designed golf course in Lewiston, not a downtown spinoff, but a taxable development because it is outside of the 50 acre boundry. A high end course certainly can't hurt the region.
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Martin
Please!! the american side was a "craphole" years before the casino. I remember dating someone in the early 80's there, it was wicked depressing then.
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SLEEPL8
NewBuffalo...."Canada has no slums" Are you serious?
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MJWorthington
The Canadian side was vibrant and alive? It had a tacky Clifton Hill and a pretty much empty Maple Leaf Center which was put out of its misery by becoming the "temporary" casino. What else was there?
I will admit the Canadian Gov't did it right. Gov't controlled casinos with all the money coming back to the people. SImilar to the state lottery. Unfortuantely here in NYS gambling is forbidden in the constitution and would need to pass to consecutive legislatures, a public referendum, etc to be allowed. That something this complicated was bypassed by a simple end a round show set off the alarms.
I have no issues with casinos. I have issues with giving a monopolty on them to a single sovergn nation for chump change and allowing them to build whatever else they want on the site with no extra revenue sharing allowed for. This is such a wonderful deal. Maybe we should lease our lottery system to them in exchange for another pretty building. They give us back %25 of the scratch off revenue and operate whatever else they want tax free. Brilliant! Make me govener.
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gaustad
Fall View Casino is 100 times nicer than the Casino in the US, in addition to the view.
If I want to play some cards, I am going to Canada, not US.
The Casino is Buffalo will precipitate develpment if it is built as nice as the Falls View Casino. However, I think the current design sucks balls.
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Olcott_Beach
…call me Rip Van Winkle, but when did Falls Street reopen to traffic?
Honestly folks, I grew-up in Niagara Falls and the city does not look any different today than it did almost forty-years ago!
If I turn 180-degrees around from the casino it is still the same old, dumpy and depressing city that I remember.
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