Buffalo Rising Online

i would love to get a new convention center for all the reasons previously cited. it would even be better if we could get built with a leed certification platinum rating to further reinforce buffalo's new green industries (wind farm, and ethanol - lets not get too sidetracked about a ethanol debate, you get the idea tho).

Building a new center from scratch and reopening the street would be great. but i think it would be remiss not to evaluate a retrofit (or for that matter the economic impact of a "no build" option) of the current structure. Wouldnt a redesigned facade with incorporated storefronts and a more visually appealing exterior could do wonders for downtown and the facility?

clearly there must be some internal upgrades that would be required - an insider would undouptedly have more insight (was that redundant?)

Sleep8,

waht dew ewe neeed spell czech four?

A stadium in the downtown area will never work.

1) With the casino taking up that block and the 190 using up so much space, there is not one contiguous parcel large enough to accomodate the footprint of the stadium. Period. And I challenge anyone to find a politician who would support tearing down government or low-income housing in the area.

2) The Bills DEPEND on people travelling from great distances to fill up the seats. In order to accomodate everyone from Rochester and points east, northern PA and southern Ontario, there has to be a great deal of parking (not to mention those in the Southtowns who have no rail access)... building a downtown stadium would require massive parking structures, sucking up otherwise developable blocks. Underground parking? Can't go underground far enough for the number of people that have no choice but to drive to the games.

A new convention center is much more feasible. In a region like ours, conventions don't instantaneously draw 75,000 people like the Bills do... HSBC Arena holds just short of 20,000, a number much closer to what a local convention would.

Sbrof has the right idea... locate the loading docks towards the 190 where nobody but Buffalo News trucks and employees drive anyway, and give the rest of the city a great view of a nice new building right behind the HSBC Atrium (perhaps even incorporate that building if HSBC still wants out?).

Any new Bills stadium should (a) make a statement and show a commitment to "green" ideals by building a self-sustaining/energy efficient/etc. building on remediated land on the Outer Harbor or in Lackawanna; or (b) enhance the push for truly regionalizing the franchise (its only hope of survival in the NFL) by placing it in Niagara County or some other point that makes it easier for folks from Toronto, Hamilton, St. Catherines, etc. to get to the games (mayve open up the Can-Pass only Whirlpool Bridge on game days to ticket holders as well as the Lewiston-Queenston?).

The DLW Terminal would be great for a convention center, but I doubt it is wide enough to host many conventions that showcase larger products or displays that can't be transported to multiple floors of a building.

SLEEPL8 - notice where loading is for pretty much every convention center in the country: street level to accomodate semi's, flatbeds, etc. You need good-sized loading docks and large bays to off-load many of the products and displays at conventions... and getting them up and down multiple floors would require a massive investment in lifts and/or unsightly ramps inside the center itself.

The convention center NEEDS to be downtown to take advantage of the hotels, restaurants, etc. A football stadium does not.

They are, actually, wastes of space. Seven regular season games, one preseason game (one of each going to Toronto), and a concert or two if you're very, very lucky. Throw in another event or two and you've got at most 15 days out of the year a football stadium is used. A stadium is better suited on the Outer Harbor (where nothing ever gets done), on a redeveloped brownfield or - and this might be most significant for the Bills' future - north of the city in Niagara County or another town accomodating to S. Ontario.

there is a space for a stadium: on top of the Perry St. projects. it makes sense for a couple of reasons. theres a fair amount of vacant land around them (surprise!), housing projects are a good intentioned yet failed urban policy, they are ajacent to the highway, and is adjacent to the route of the Buffalo Bills express (didnt you know, amtrak operates a special train from albany to bills games [and bused into orchard park]?).

there is even precedent for builing on the projects, the old aud atop the rough canal neighborhood!

Maybe its time to consider moving the Perry Projects and preparing that area for a stadium/ convention center? You have the Cobblestona District, A Casino, new loft housing and Elk Terminal. No its not a bash on the low income there but perhaps those projects are just too old or beat and the site would be better redeveloped instead of being "the projects". This way you would be relatively close to the HSBC Arena as well. Maybe get the land behnid the HSBC Atrium as the Convention Center, put a stadium on the projects? I dunno maybe this is a crazy idea and heck the projects probably dont offer enough land anyway. It would seem like that general area woyuld be well suited for those uses. Then again somewhere out on the outer harbor might be good for a convention center/ stadium as long as you have stacked parking, you have legitimate connections to downtown for car/ pedestrian/ AND RAIL. That Buffalo River need not divide downtown from the outer harbor if solid connections are made over or under it. We do have ship traffic on the Buffalo River and shouldnt cut that off so if you go over I guess it would be a lift bridge or something.

Wow your totally on the same page as al-alo. As I typed my comment I saw you were thinking like me.

al-alo... if the projects weren't there, I'd agree there was plenty of room to build a football stadium in the area. But do you HONESTLY think there is the political will at the city, county, state or even federal level to demolish housing projects that serve thousands of people for a football stadium?

I'm optimisic there is (and a more viable alternative made available to those folks living there), but I highly, highly doubt it.

Also, the Bills express (are you sure it still operates?) never brought in more than a few hundred people to WNY for the games.

The Bills are not AND SHOULD NOT be in the business of helping out the city of Buffalo. If we want a team in WNY, the Bills have to be selfish and in the business of cultivating their client base in southern Ontario. Make it easier for people there to come to games. If high-speed rail between Toronto and St. Catherines is really coming, put the stadium in Niagara County, provide charter buses from train stations, malls, wherever in St. Catherines and Queenston to the games, petition to have the Whirlpool Bridge opened to the general public on game days only, and so on.

WilliamZabka - if they want to build it downtown they will make the room. NYC had an 800million dollar stadium for the Jets designed for Manhattan, I think Buffalo has a little more land options than Manhattan. The outer harbor with metro rail extention is certainly a viable option as is the multiple parking lots between Cobblestone-Casino and behind HSBC Atrium. Look at where they jammed Pilot Field in. Granted this project would 3x the size but the area behind HSBC Atrium probably is 3x the size of the Swan-Washington area. You cannot use the OP parking concept for an urban application. Everything about getting to and enjoying game day experience would be different, probably more dignified actually. Taxi's, public transportation, Amtrak and even walking to the game would be required by many. Probably no more tailgating and full restuarants instead. Coming on Sat night and staying over in downtown hotel sound like a pretty good plan.

Niagara County makes some sense but we already have no problem selling out in OP every week. Who wants to invest 250K in a luxury suite in Wheatfield. If 73,000 find thier way to OP each sunday then I think Buffalo would be a big improvement.

SLEEPL8 - I never made the argument the 33 and 190 can't handle the influx of people. The problem is where does that influx go? There simply isn't enough parking in the area without building giant parking structures.

I want to agree with you that there is a site for the stadium in the area you describe. But without demolishing the Perry St. projects and completely reshaping the area with parking, street widening and removal in some cases, it just won't fit.

Again, a football stadium is better suited for an area like Orchard Park, Wheatfield, brownfields in Lackawanna, etc. Without a fully functioning public transit system that supports the entire region (and don't give me the buses... please), it makes no sense to go into the city.

Put the convention center there. Put the Bills elsewhere.

vgs - the Bills DON'T sell out every week. They were the ONLY TEAM IN THE NFL last season to not sell out every game and as of right now they are the only one on pace to not sell out every game this year. They have un-sold suites this year. It is clear as day they need to regionalize further. Tap into Toronto and Southern Ontario further. If you aren't going to just build next to where you currently are, make a statement and rehabilitate some brownfields in Lackawanna or build closer to those very Canadians in Niagara County.

Manhattan had a huge site they were going to build on for the Jets on the West Side. Not to mention, MILLIONS UPON MILLIONS of people could easily get there via public transit. Not so in WNY.

And you misread what I wrote... I agree an Outer Harbor stadium could work. Just like Pittsburgh, it would be "within the city" but across a river from the downtown core. I just don't think a stadium right in downtown can work. Anywhere. Look at the sheer size of the footprint modern stadiums take up. And find me land to replicate that downtown without relocating thousands of residents, businesses, etc.

I'm all for that, I just don't think the political will exists at any level to get it done.

WilliamZabkaAllStars,

you know, im not entirely sure the BBE express still runs. that said, id suggest it prob wasnt well marketed by amtrak or the bills.

frankly, i would understand why it would not be as popular as it could be if you needed to take a connecting bus ride. now, say a downtown stadium exisited on the perry st site, a buffalo bills express could pull right up to the stadium. actually, it would be easy to add local service (ie, depew, NF) where there already are existing amtrak stations. so now instead of just a few hundred or thousand, you could move many thousands without the need for land intensive parking areas, and lets face it, less drinking and driving.

and, not just let me get a little crazy, if metro rail was connected to UB (and at this point, i dont care if it ever made an intermediate stop between campuses - campi? forget it. doesnt matter. you get the idea), you get 10 of thousands of students with disposable income who would likely love to go to a game.

on the non selling out issue. let me make 2 points. one, the ralph is one of the larger stadiums in the league. why should there be a 15,000 person differnce between a sell out in buffalo and a sell out in indy. secondly, the bills havent exactly been doing great the last few years. maybe if there was a team on the field to get excited about, then folks would show up. the fact that anybody goes to see the mediocore product says a lot about the devotion of Bills fans.

People have you all lost your minds? The convention center is a shiny peice of our rich Soviet heritage. Josef Stalin and Nikita Khrushchev would be so proud of us. C'mon the thing looks like...cement?

By the way I'm being sarcastic.

As i heard on the radio this morning the Indianapolis Colts are building a 65,000 seat domed stadium with an attached convention center, at a cost of around 600 mil. For two hugely important projects thats not a bad idea. That way the stadium could be used more than ten times a year. Oh, heavens me, its eight now.

Buffalo is actually hosting some serious conferences in the next few years. The Nat'l Historic Preservation Society, American Solar Institute, an environmental planning one, all in 2009 or 2010, I cant remember their actual names but the point is we need to establish a niche. If we build green-energy buildings it will attract environmental groups and were already raging for our historic preservation. We cant land everything but those two fieldswill be very hot in the near future.

Oh, and heres a novel idea for the parking issue, GET THE FUCK OUT OF YOUR CAR AND INTO A TRAIN! Regular cities use public transport. The reason downtown is the way it is is because in the 60s we thought everything should revolve around the car, if any of you idiots knew anything about our history you would be lobbying for an extensive metro system. And for all you sniveling suburbanites who cant live without your lexuses park at LaSalle station, thats what its there for.

atypical - Baltimore, Houston, Philly, Atlanta, Detroit, and St. Louis all have ACRES of parking around their stadiums. Several of those, plus Chicago and Seattle all have fantastic public transit systems for bringing in thousands upon thousands of people to the stadium. Not sure about Indy, Tampa or New Orleans. We have neither in the city.

And what about the Patriots, Jets, Giants, Packers, Vikings, Dolphins, Cowboys, Cardinals, Kansas City, Redskins, Broncos, Titans, Jaguars? All teams who have - or will have - new(er) facilities in suburban or rural areas. They aren't concerned with redevelopment of an urban area because that ain't their mission as a business. Nor should it be.

You're all offering bad examples - cities that have downtown stadiums either all have abundant parking or superior public transit systems. We have neither. And enough of this calling for downtown to become part of some ridiculous transportation hub. Good luck trying to get the state or county to fork over the multi-millions (billions?) it would take to extend light rail all over the place, improve train access, etc. We all know they won't spend nearly as much on us as they would on the Jets or Yankees or any other team in the NYC metro area.

NOBODY has given one legitimate business reason it is in the Buffalo Bills' best interest to put a stadium downtown. People being bussed in from the McKinley mall? Going to restaurants for sit-down meals before games? None of this... NONE OF THIS... helps the Bills at all. They need to stretch every dollar as far as they possibly can, and the expenses they would incurr as a part of some vast infrastructure redevelopment associated with a downtown stadium is beyond what anyone can afford.

Let's not forget... the Bills are profitable because Ralph Wilson carries zero debt on the team, the stadium, etc. A new owner(s) is going to have to spend $700 million + to purchase the team, and then contribute serious dough to a new stadium (at least another $300-500 million). If part of that new stadium is a massive public transit and highway reconfiguration and development project, that amount rises even more. Per NFL rules and regulations, a team can only borrow up to $150 million against the team... that means we're going to need someone with either $1 billion in hand to buy the team and help finance a new stadium, or someone with a lucrative business that can borrow against that business for the hundreds of millions necessary to construct a new stadium.

Of course it can be done, people. I don't doubt that and wish it could happen. I just think its cheaper, more efficient and BETTER FOR THE FRANCHISE if its done with the Bills in mind, and not the City of Buffalo. Building in the City does absolutely nothing for the Bills' bottom line.

The Bills should follow the Patriots' lead (in more ways that one, as much as it pains me to say it)... build in an area (Foxboro) roughly halfway between the two largest metro areas in the region (Boston and Providence, with Hartford not much further away). If the Bills truly want to regionalize, they should learn from the masters. Build between Buffalo and Hamilton, with Toronto not much further away.

LivingForge - I've been to Detroit several times (one Bills game, a handful of Tigers games). You're right, the parking need not be contiguous. But it needs to be there. A downtown stadium in the area near HSBC where people are proposing it go would go OVER much of that parking. Look at a map of the area on Google Maps or take a walk down there. There are currently two lots behind the HSBC Atrium (one right up next to it, another at the end of that block). There is a giant lot across from the BRO headquarters. Those would be GONE if a new stadium went down there. Detroit is a great example, but unrealistic when comparing it to Buffalo... too many buildings (Casino, Elk Terminal, block after block of projects, the Nicholson (?) metal building) would have to come down. If they were all vacant, it might happen, but as it is... it won't.

People still need to give one legitimate business reason the BILLS should want the stadium downtown. Because nobody's given one. I don't know where you people expect to get all the money for this. Let's start there... where do you people think the just under billion dollars for a new stadium, convention center, public transit and highway reconfiguration development plan is going to come from?

Forge - once a stadium AND convention center went up, tell me where the lots - contiguous or not - would be? The large ones around HSBC that are there now would be gone, don't forget that.

And remember, once you put those in place, you preclude all future develoopment in that area of the city.

I don't think some of you realize just how infrequently stadiums - even those in downtown areas - are used. I have friends or family who live IN Philly, Baltimore, Houston and Pittsburgh. NONE OF THEM have been to the stadiums except for football games.

I agree with everyone calling for a new convention center and think this would be a great location. But a football stadaium attached to it does ABSOLUTELY NOTHING FOR THE CITY except for at most 10-12 days a year. The investment that would be necessary isn't worth the return.

If you people want a radical idea for a City of Buffalo football stadium, try this on for size - the Central Terminal location.

Let's be honest... nothing is ever... EVER going to happen there of any economic value. The surrounding neighborhood is deteriorating at a rapid pace and a major kick-start is needed. Why not demolish all but the iconic tower portion of the central terminal and build a retro-looking stadium right next door, even incorporating the old terminal as one entrance? There is more than enough land for parking, storage/garages, the office building the team would need, and practice fields. Further, land would not be difficult to acquire in the surrounding neighborhood as more and more homes burn, rot while vacant, etc.

Rail access is a no-brainer, and improving highway access to the area wouldn't cost any more than what people are proposing for the HSBC Atrium area. Just a thought...

Oh, and just got back from lunch... congrats on 40 Under 40, Newell!!!

If you REALLY want to spur development/transit change, push for a stadium on the Outer Harbor (old Pier site?). Watch how fast Outer Harbor access and Furhman Blvd. redevelopment follows, light rail is extended....

RonR -

Baltimore - You're not making any point I already didn't. Massive amounts of parking, and yes... in part because they share with the Orioles. So what? My point still stands... once a stadium is built in the location people are describing, those lots will be GONE. Then what?

Houston - I never said they were in the city or anywhere else... atypical did. Stop putting words in my mouth.

Philly - you're wrong. Not in the burbs. Next to Citizens Bank Park, the old Spectrum, and the new arena. All in SOUTH PHILLY. Surrounded by parking lots, but a reasonable amount... great planning by Philly. Philly - IN THE BURBS

Atlanta - I don't know about you, but when I was in Atlanta for the Final Four, there was parking everywhere. Reminded me of Detroit.

Detroit - Again, I know its in the city. And it DOES have plenty more parking than Buffalo does. Those surface lots all around it and Comerica which we partially recreate near HSBC would all be gone if a new stadium went up.

St. Louis - Been there. Know exactly where it is... and that its surrounded by ample parking, like you mention.

Not sure what your point is about New York teams, Boston, DC, Denver and Dallas. I know where they are, and I understand they are in huge metro areas. But the fact remains, they build to make money for themselves. Not interested in what a metro area might want. That's how a team SHOULD operate. And don't give me prohibitive crap... the Jets were going to spend nearly a billion for a West Side stadium. DC is building a brand new baseball stadium IN the city. The Yankees AND Mets are building in the city.

Minnesota - not sure how I slipped up there, as I've been there before. You're right, in the city, my foul up.

KC - I've been there. Yes its in the burbs. I never said it was rural, like you claim. Wrong again. The Bills would be better suited to follow their lead and continually renovate the Ralph.

Titans - play just outside of downtown... which I consider the burbs. Either way, my point there was surrounded by lots. Have you been there? I have... as many as The Ralph. Again, I never claimed it was rural. Again, stop putting words in my mouth.

Jacksonville - the place is a dump. If that is still considered "downtown" Jacksonville has bigger problems than I thought. To me, it is located on what is akin to our Outer Harbor.

I don't think you're even close on the two things that could happen. One, yes... the Bills could move. Two, there's no reason they need a new stadium IN the city. I want you to explain to us all how a new stadium in the city create more revenue for the team than a new stadium in OP or Wheatfield or another suburban location?

Short answer - IT DOESN'T. PROVE TO US IT DOES. Ticket prices and suite prices will be the exact same whether the new stadium is in OP, downtown, Wheatfield, wherever.

In fact, with less team-controlled parking, the team will likely make LESS money in the city.

I'm still waiting for someone to offer up a legit reason the business enterprise that is the Buffalo Bills should move into the city. It benefits their bottom line a grand total of zero dollars compared to a new stadium elsewhere.

Another point... what kind of pricing power do you think the Bills have, people? They can open a new stadium and magically charge an extra $20 for tickets per game (to get in line with league averages) or double the price of suites? Not in this economic climate. The Bills should mimic KC and continually renovate the Ralph. Its the most economically feasible solution at this point.

Also waiting to hear how you people want to finance a $700 million stadium/convention center.

RonR - maybe you know better than me about the Titans stadium... is right across the river from downtown (where the stadium is) considered the city still? I thought that was outside the city. If it is still Nashville proper, I stand corrected.

But my point about ample parking remains...

rb66, RonR, SleepL8 and others -

Don't get me wrong, I'd LOVE to have the stadium downtown. I just don't think (1) there is enough space without tearing down the MASSIVE Perry St. projects and relocating several businesses (the Colts new stadium not counting the convention center takes up 7.5 acres); and (2) it makes sound financial sense for a new owner.

If someone can point me to a parcel downtown that could accomodate the size of new stadiums and provide the minimal amount of parking needed for a new stadium, I'd love to hear it. 'Cause right now, all I see is the Central Terminal area and the Outer Harbor.

THANK YOU ATWATER.

Exactly what I've been saying. All about pricing power, and the Bills simply wouldn't have it with a new stadium...

... ESPECIALLY one funded primarily by incurring heavy debt.

FOLLOW KANSAS CITY'S EXAMPLE!!! Continually upgrade the Ralph year in and year out (start with geting a corporate sponsor) and slowly raise all suite and ticket prices.