Buffalo Rising Online

i agree!!...i dunno i cant see the city or the state letting it just sit there once its all done and built. For which i think the senacas are playing it smart. If you build it....we will make it legal...or legal enough. I think no matter what this is gonna be cool for buffalo

Glad to see it! I can't wait to read the anti-casino crowds reaction for this post! I'm really pumped to read someone's post that will reference a "study" that was done, yet not actually provide any links to said study. I'm also pumped to read real weak arguments about how it will take away jobs from other business and ruin the quality of life. My favorite is the "Sliver Bullet" argument. For some reason the Anti-Casino crowd thinks that people who support the casino believe that it will be the ONE business that will save the city. I'm starting to think that the Anti-Casino people are the ones waiting for that magic business to save us all.

Most rational people believe in diversification of downtown, and this is a start.

By the way I bought a 2 dollar scratch off ticket the other day, I guess I'll see the rest of you Casino supporting people in gambling hell.

So sick of the anit-casino people.....but what about the poor people....going against the stores that run the games and how the odds are bad......why would poor people gamble their life savings away.....work hard, educate yourself.....get a job, if you can't find one here......then relocate! Then make your money and then gamble for recreational purposes......so sick of that crap......this project is not the be all-end all......but if you can pull some tourists and out of town $, like the NF and Salamanca are, coupled with economic spin off from suppliers to the casino and the jobs that are created...then full steam ahead!

This is NOW Indian land. "OUR" government sold the land to them !!! So they will do what they want, rightfully so. Just my opinion. It would be like me selling you my house, then telling you that you can't paint the walls white. I KNOW this isn't the same as gambling ! Just my OPINION.

Its funny how the city was going to sue the Indians a few years back because they were going to build the casino near the airport and not the city. Now they start building and the city says its illegal. This city is such a joke!

I don't see what is wrong with having the CHOICE to gamble your money away. In NYS, we don't have the CHOICE to subsidize a broken system called medicaid.

I think the only dishonest argument between the pro- and con-casino crowd is the "they don't pay any taxes" argument.

Do you read the business section of the paper? Have you heard of an IDA? What percentage of businesses in WNY (or NYS in general) actually pay full taxes? Every manufacturer gets electrical subsidies. Every group that promises to create 5 or 10 jobs gets a PILOT (Payment-in-lieu-of-taxes) deal. The Seneca's agree to pay 25% of slot revenue to the state (and then Buffalo gets a share of that). 25%, of even a portion of revenue, is more than many businesses pay in taxes. Think of that payment deal as a PILOT, and there is little difference between this project and any others.

Oh, there is one difference - this project is worth $330 million, and will create 1000 jobs, at all levels. That doesn't happen in Buffalo every day.

Have any of you people who complain about the competitive advantage that the Senecas are getting ever actually been to the casino in NF? Here's a link to the menu at Blues, their 'normal' restaurant (meaning not a higher end one like the Western Door steakhouse): http://www.senecaniagaracasino.com/pdfs/blues_menu.pdf

Do those prices look like they're set at a level to undercut other local establishments? You think people are going to stop going to their favorite local spot to go to a restaurant at the casino for a $12 hamburger? As for the free drinks - those are for the people gambling. If you aren't at a table or a machine, drinks cost the same as they do at any bar on Chippewa. Even if you are gambling - they charge for anything but draft beer or well drinks.

The casino - which WILL open, you can bet on it (haha) - is simply another choice for people's entertainment dollar. Nobody is looking at it as the savior of downtown, but it will be a nice addition to an already pretty decent assortment of entertainment options.

As for the design - another building downtown that doesn't look like it's 100 years old, fine with me. Mix it up a little bit! Just keep the giant neon feather up north please.

Vivian- hotel demand in NF is through the roof? Why is overall occupancy for the year under 50 percent? Even taking out the Route 62 shacks, demand is NOT thru the roof. If it was- where are all the hotel proposals on the NY side? "Apparently" you are wrong. The proof is there- not one hotel is underway in downtown NF, and the only one on the horizon is the Seneca's. Failure.

flyguy - the canadian casinos are owned by the canadian govt and follow all canadian laws and regulations. They are fully part of the local economy because the govt can design them that way. The senecas can ignore NYS laws and regulations and design it any way they want to keep people inside. The only way NYS casinos could have the same positive affect on WNY would be to LEGALIZE gambling and allow non-sovereign casinos.

Yes! Lets look at this post from Hoss first.

"Have none of you been to Niagara Falls lately? Economically, It's a disaster" That casino is killing all area small business."

Wasn't this the case before the casino was built?

"Plus the building is ugly as hell, and totally out of place."

Oh I forgot the run down houses, parking ramp, and Mall are so beautiful!

"This Casino opening in Buffalo will be the death bell for this city"

How exactly? Where's your proof? What do you suggest?

Lets look at the post from Tuco

"Owner Gary Macri was public in his criticism of the casino's competitive advantages, most notably free drinks and tax-free food, and a policy that allows smoking"

Ok this whole free drink thing is complete BS. This dude makes it sound like you walk in and they give you drinks for playing nickle slots, that's not the case! You have to be spending some dough to get comps. As far as smoking, it has been found that the smoking ban has not caused a loss of revenues for resturants in NYS. The tax free food issue I'm not too aware of, but I do know that the food prices are not so dirt cheap that it would casue another resturant to go out of business, infact the buffet is about 16-20 bones!

We have been given a gift of a natural wonder in our back yard. People come from all over to see it. What do we offer? A nice state park that you can spend 1 day in tops!

The number 2 money maker in NYS is tourism. Despite what some people think, a lot of out of towners visit this area. We should be having a healthy competition with Niagara Falls for their money instead of having a "who can ruin a city faster" duel.

One more from Hoss "I can also avoid the parking headaches on Allan Street and the Chip Strip."

I'm sure the Casino is really going to eat into the crowd at The Pink at 3am on a Friday!

JohnMarko

You do make good points on the Monopoly issue and I agree with you on that point, however I need more info from this statement.

"As to whether it will be good or bad for Buffalo, just look to the NY side of the Falls - the Casino there is a DISASTER for the local businesses. That's a FACT that NOBODY can dispute."

I'm disputing this. Where are the facts, give me some links or something. Niagara Falls has been going under for years now, I have yet to see any reasonable evidence that states it's the casino's fault.

Can anyone say what happens after 15 years when the agreement ends? Does the State or Buffalo get anything? are we stuck with a casino for enternity and with no possible income? and Can anyone identify how the state and the CIty are looking to invest this casino money such that when that day occurs (if this is in fact the case) we are not caught with all the negatives and no positive impact. For example Dubai know that one day its oil income with run out, so they are making large investments in other industries such as tourism to offset the loss. What is Buffalo planning (and can buffalo plan anything given it is receiving peanuts in the deal anyhow)? Becasue, as i understand it, this is a short term benefit. And as anyone should know, the casino is not going to attract enough outside visitors to claim that tourism dollars will offset income loss. When is the last time anyone said, "oh let's get to Detroit and gamble!" It caters mostly to locals just as buffalo will.

Someone please explain the 15 year agreement!

Darrell, it is not the casino's fault that Niagara Falls is going under. Nobody blames the casino. The point is that you can not look beyond the casino jobs for any net benefit to the city. Othere then jobs (which are partly offset by job losses elsewhere) there is little benefit to a casino and Niagara Falls illustrates this quite well.

I am so sick an tired of people giving THEIR OPINIONS on this topic. Are there any real scientific studies that have been done to prove one way or another if this is an overall good or bad? Basically you have one side that says it is good because it:

Brings over a thousand jobs Gives Buffalo a cut of the money that would be spent in Niagara Falls (US or CA) or where ever else local people would go to gamble Does something with land that has sat blighted for years with zero development and *could* spark more development Could attract people from outside the local economy to spend money in Buffalo

Then you have the people who say it is bad because it:

Supplies over a thousand jobs, but most will be low paying and many only go to Senecas leaving the poor in Buffalo poor Does give Buffalo a cut of the money that is being spent elsewhere, but will raise the cost of dealing with "social ills" that arise from gambling and will attract MORE people who would otherwise not drive somewhere else to gamble and would normally spend their money at another local business killing other local businesses Make use of blighted land, but it will not be on the tax rolls ever again, and also casinos in other areas typically do not spark other development. The Senecas have stated that they will not target people outside of the Buffalo area with this casino

So is it good or bad? I think that I have no idea and neither does anyone else until someone really studies this. It could really make a great graduate studies project, anyone from UB agree?

I for one like the Seneca monopoly, because after all the bills are paid, that money stays in WNY. It doesent end up at the HQ of some giant multiNational based in LosAngeles or Vegas or overseas. It stays right here.

Just putting this out here. Rough estimate . 20 people who have posted are in favor and 8 are not and 3 a neutral. This is just from looking at the posts and trying to keep who posted more than once.

NYC

"The point is that you can not look beyond the casino jobs for any net benefit to the city. "

I look at other possible development and never use the job creation arguement. Someone needs to do a study on how hard it is to build in Niagara Falls. Maybe there would be more develpoment if there was less red tape.

"Othere then jobs (which are partly offset by job losses elsewhere) there is little benefit to a casino and Niagara Falls illustrates this quite well"

Last I heard 3,500 more people are employed now in the city of Niagara Falls, not all of these are casino jobs. (I'm looking for the link)

"Darrell, it is not the casino's fault that Niagara Falls is going under. Nobody blames the casino."

Are you sure about that, just spend a few minutes online and plenty of people are blaming them. Not saying any of those people are rational, but those are the people who get heard.

Most state building codes are based on federal code. And the Senecas MUST follow Federal code.

Also if they did not strictly follow building codes, they could not get Insurance on their buildings or contruction financing or any fire protection from the city government.

Darrell-

New York City has some of the worst red tape and yet there is a huge building boom. If a developer will make money, they will find a way to build it.

It would be interesting to see the stats on NF employment. I won't argue that the casino has removed jobs but job gain has always been questionable with casinos. It's not a guarantee one way or the other. I think it would be important however to look at spin-off jobs as well as casino jobs.

and yes there are alot of lunatics yelling one thing or another from both sides of this argument.

Also, where is the freaking plan from the state or buffalo as to how they will target and spend their share of the casino income? How about use it to offest property taxes downtown? What baffles me the most about all this is the fact that neither New York State or the City of Buffalo can illustrate how their share of the pie will be a net benefit to the city or region. If they want to sell the casino to the people, why don't they have a plan? As of now the money will go down the public toilet. It reminds me of route 5, the "just trust us" attitude of New York is sick. Put a FREAKING long term plan together and show us how and why you are spending money.

On a side note. Has anyone driven by or through Batavia lately? That "city" was a dump less that 5 years ago then they had a big push for Batavia Downs race track. Just driving by on the 90 you can see the explosion this city is having. Not saying Batavia Downs is the reason but it probably helped by drawing people in. They have track racing and video gambling machines like slots. The Gambling at Batavia Downs is not killing their economy in any way.

Vivian- If you go from 20 percent occupany to 40- 100 percent!!!! Wow- that's impressive! NOT. Dig into the numbers to see where they came from and where they went to- they're still far below national average occupancy, and Buffalo's for that matter!

I'm glad they're not stopping construction because of some small group of hicks are saying Gambling is illegal on the site. If only Paladino would take note and just build his tower on Court St. already. In regards to the Better Buffalo Group..Did this group ever consider suing local church's? I just past St. Marks Church last evening on Eggert Rd. to find the Entire Parking Lot and Street full of Cars due to BINGO!!! Oh, no, I'm not sure if gambling is allowed on this site, maby they should sue St. Marks. It's probally been going on for 40 something years now and I've never seen any hookers near by or hear of any robberys. But, hell this should'nt go on anymore, not in my back yard....Sound dumb?.. Because it is. The Casino is just one big Bingo Hall taking place 24/7, it's mostly older people and I can't picture this one casino completly turning Downtown Buffalo into the next Vegas as said by the Ciitezens for Better Buffalo leader on the news recently.

I just want some type of explanation for whoever gave me 1 star on my posts? The first one was just stating what I noticed for posts? WHY would that require a one star? Can you please explain why 1 star would be necessary? The second post was giving an example of Batavia. They have gambling and there economy is booming. I didn't say I was for or against I was just pointing out this example. Whoever is so ignorant to just post a star because they feel it does not go with their view is dumb. My posts where not aggressive nor arrogant. Just simply points to keep in mind.

I think that we all agree on is some sort of PLAN to diversify business in the area.

I work right near the Erie Basin Marina, and the difference between this year and last year is amazing. The Commerical Slip has added a lot more foot traffic. Hopefully someone will be able to build some resturants and attractions soon.

On a side note if I was the PR director for the Seneca's I would try and invest in some sort of family friendly Navy Pier like attraction on the water front. This wouldn't quiet all the critics, but it would show that they are trying to invest in the area with something other than a Casino. It would be a good idea to partner with someone else so it's not "soverign land".

Ok, I'll bite:

1. Links to some of the academic studies that show that casinos are bad economic development can be found at http://www.nocasinoerie.org/. You can also find links to pro-casino studies that were bought and paid for by casino operators.

2. The anti-casino people aren't "hicks," or any of the other insulting non sequiturs you want to throw out.

3. Just because something is being built doesn't make it "progress." Just because that building is tall doesn't make it "progress." Just because the project employs people doesn't make it "progress." The urban renewal projects of the 50s and 60s built plenty of tall buildings, and employed large numbers of folks. Not a great example of progress . . .

4. According to the Seneca's own SEC filing, the casino would cater to a local crowd. That means that it would be a tax-free competitor to already existing local businesses. In exchange for harming local businesses, we get to keep 7% of the slot profits.

5. The state has actively encouraged an Indian casino as a way to get around the state constitutional ban on casino gambling. In exchange, they get 18% of the slot profits -- more than 2 1/2 times our cut. Why should we send them so much of our money as a reward for essentially disregarding our constitution?

6. If casino gambling is actually such a viable means of economic development, why the need to grant a tax-free monopoly to another nation?

7. If casino gambling is so beneficial to the host community, why wouldn't the state -- which is dominated by downstate interests -- push for a casino in NYC? Given that New York is already a big tourist draw, a casino there would seem to have a better chance of bringing in outside money. Could it be that the whole casino business is little more than a ploy by Albany to impose what amounts to a tax on already poor upstate communities?

1. Why should we care what people around the country think about us? Businesses looking to relocate research their decisions carefully, they don't rely on an impression of a city's reputation. It's a terrible idea to make big development decisions based on a desire to impress outsiders, most of whom aren't paying attention anyway.

2. Making big development decisions based on how they would affect the skyline is even nuttier.

3. Building isn't necessarily positive. We built the 33, the 190 along the waterfront, and UB in Amherst. All of these projects could have used a little more "foot dragging."

4. I don't understand why you assume that anti-casino people don't do the things you mention. Many of the people involved in the lawsuit or the casino campaign in general have long histories of community involvement.

5. That said, it doesn't matter. The idea that a group formed to address one particular issue must address all issues in order to be legitimate is crazy. For example, the folks working to save the Central Terminal aren't doing anything to reform local schools. So what?! It's not a valid criticism.

1. I'm against the casino. My "better solution" is not to have a casino. Given that I feel a casino would harm the city, a better use of the land would be to let it sit empty.

2. Greater connections between Toronto-NF-Buffalo would be terrific. I don't get what it has to do with a casino, though.

@ Colin, The reason we should care what other people think is because it is better to have a good reputation than a bad one, and that applies to any set of circumstances. Even you have to agree with that. As it relates to businesses moving here, ultimately it must make financial sense for a company to relocate. Companies need employees and if the employees don't want to relocate here because of our reputation (weather, taxes, nothing to do) then they probably won't do the deed. It is not practical to assume you can get the talent you need to make the business a go or take the financial hit while you develop local workers into what you need. This is not just me talking out my ass, either. My company is looking at closing our plant in California and bringing the work here, a big consideration is that no one wants to give up SoCal for Buffalo. The choose unemployment over what they think is waiting for them here. So yeah, we should care what others think.