Citizens Regional Transit Corporation
Buffalo might be a ways away from seeing a Metro Rail expansion to UB and the airport... and that's a shame. While many people keep their hopes high that those expansions will take place sooner rather than later, there is a group of supporters who are beating the drum to move the plans forward at a quicker speed. Gladys Gifford is president of the Citizens Regional Transit Corporation (CRTC), a group that is dedicating themselves to everything and anything having to do with expanded service. Gladys stopped by yesterday to see if there might be an interest from BRO readers regarding the possibility of an extended 1.2 mile loop starting at the South Park bend (from Main Street). The loop would travel down South Park, curve up Louisiana, then back up Perry, before heading onto Main Street again. I asked Gladys why there was a push for this loop instead of a push for the airport or UB and she explained, "If we can show that this loop is doable, then we can take what we learn from it and apply it to a bigger project. Part of the study is to weigh the financial burden of operation and maintenance as the lines grow. We want to demonstrate that these expansions can be done, and with the support of more people we can push to see that they are. The 1.2 mile loop that we envision would be the start of the push for a South Town connector."
In other words, it's been so long since there has been any sort of Metro Rail advancement that this loop could trigger enthusiasm for the big expansions. This loop would come at the same time that the Buffalo Casino would be built. That means that people coming into Buffalo to visit the casino would have the ability to hop on the Metro Rail and head down Main Street into the rest of the city. This would help bridge the gaming facility to other points of interest throughout Buffalo. The track would also pass by the Elk Street Terminal. Then there are the mass HSBC parking lots that could be used for park and rides into the city. At one point Buffalo Place ran a successful shuttle that was used to transport people from lots to other destinations - that program eventually ran out of funding.
At this point the CRTC is in the stages of raising money for a feasibility study. The group has raised a third of the $10,000 needed to complete the study, and is interested in additional support to see the study through. The CRTC is also looking for members who want to help in supporting expanded Metro Rail destinations. If you're interested in learning more, or would like to attend a CRTC meeting (or donate), visit the group's site.
What Others Have To Say
What Do You Think?
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flyguy
How about the outer harbor first? Link the rail line to the outerharbor and run it southwards through the hopeful new development. Straight shot across the Buffalo River.
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Jay
I think the loop is a great idea.
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PDB
I wonder if the interest in expanding the Light Rail would be so high if it was known that only 15%, or so, of the operating costs are covered by rider revenue. The balance is subsidy by the NFTA. That subsidy could go a long way in other development in the City.
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halljd39
Newell, Where is that a picture of?
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flyguy
The loop would be great if we had full confidence that the area it would loop around would build out and become a vibrant residential/ commercial area. Keeping fingers crossed. I think much of the reason why the current light rail doesnt get more user funding is because it just doesnt access enough people or go to enough lpaces to make it worth using. When I was a UB student on South Campus it was convenient to use and in situations where I worked downtown but lived in the northtowns I used it sometimes but the fact is that the park and ride lot at South Campus packs up and theres really no way for additional ridership at that point because "park and riders" cant park there. Unless you live within 5 miles of a station and work downtown, are a UB, Canisius student, live close to the line or are going to an event downtown from the immediate area surrounding a station i dont see why you would use the line, its just not practical unless its expanded to gain more ridership. A feeling of a bit more security down in the stations would help as well.
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LivingForge
Such a loop would certainly provide a nice connection to HSBC arena. A slightly larger loop going up South Park, turning at Van Renssalier and turning back toward Main St. would service the Larkin Co. Building and its many many daily inhabitants (and hopefully in the not too distant future 24 hour residents). Such a connection would give hundreds of workers a quick, car-free way into the CBD for lunches (professional and personal) and errands (professional and personal), not to mention commuting from northtowns park and ride and points within the city. There is existing track running along Exchange St. too, though I don't know if the rail gauge is the same as used by MetroRail. Following the Exchange line would also hook the NFTA up to Amtrak service since the Amtrak station is right there.
It just seems like to make a loop and base its hopes and promises on the Casino is a little more risky than providing a service to an established business park and existing transportation infrastructure.
Point A on this Map is the Larkin Co building.
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Spaulding97
Great idea. I wish we had map that showed the loop.
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Geomike
I'd love to see the Metro Rail line go anywhere beyond what it does now. The Louisiana loop would be a great start. And I think a logical next best test ( good call flyguy) would be to run south along the outer harbor and use some of the vacant Behtlehem land for a park and ride for all the Southtowns commuters stuck taking Route 5 and the 190 into downtown (btw, I don't live in the Southtowns, but route 5 in the AM is a carbon monoxide nightmare). And get the outer harbor line elevated so traffic can pass under it allowing access to the waterfront development that will then come, and not obstructing a ground level view of the lake. Imagine a couple stations, one near Tift and one closer to Lake St in Woodlawn, getting all those cars off the waterfront portion of route 5, so that a true scenic parkway could exist near Fuhrman Blvd and we could then justify taking down the Skyway because fewer cars would need it and the cost to maintian that dinisaur wouldn't be justified. It could also mean fewer cars parking & driving downtown 9ie more pedestrian cyclist friendly), better access for people who don't want to hassle with downtown parking, and maybe a nice visual image for Buffalo: an elevated light rail along the outer harbor, with windmills cranking out power behind it, all set in front of our gorgeous Lake Erie sunset. Ultimately, it's got to make people's lives easier and more afforable for people to catch on. Altruism is great, but we need to be realisitc about why people will change their behavior. This at least would not face opposition from residents by using dead industrial space, but getin a more densly settled community like Cheektowaga, from carving out space or more construction to crate a line to the airport, and it would benefit the community. Just a thought.
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al-alo
hope this works out. but an airport line might not have the biggest economic impact. The students at UB are a key to revitilzing the city, and without that rail link, they will remain on the island campus in amherst.
id like to see a cost/return evaluation on all the potential routes to see what should really be the highest priority. my guess is after UB, niagara falls should be the next expansion. and not ness by light rail. commuter rail would be much faster and easier to implement (since it is currently used as an amtrak route), and could be extended to the airport.
i guess my point is, i like value analysis to see what our priorities should be as a community. it seems like we select ideas not entirely by merit around here. instead it depends on access (most often money), and not on an honest evaluation.
take the light rail expansion here: an analysis should evaluate costs of construction, routes, annual costs, potential returns, comparison to other options (no build, busways, lightrail/heavy rail/commuter rail), economic impact (basically the return on an investment), environmental impact . . .and a hundred subcatagorizes.
PDB askes if monies applied here would be better spent elsewhere. im not sure that his views are 100% on, but we should compare anyway. its the smart thing to do. evaluate, prioritize, implement.
i have an idea of how it all will work out. but i cant be absolutely certain. and when we are speaking of public dollars in an area with limited capital available, we should be even more stringant.
or tell me, am i just nuts?
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MJWorthington
DO NOT ELEVATE ANYTHING! =) We can see how inviting the views from under the elevated portion of I-190 are.
Make the transit part of the pedestrian experience. Some rail lines and an occasional train will not block any view of the water. Elevated track supports would.
I think the most succesful loop would be out to Larkin. These is already sucessful development out there and more planned. What better way to anchor the end of the loop? And bring it back past ECC North. That along with getting out to UB North would make for a much more useful system.
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MJWorthington
Duh.....ECC City..... ;)
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RonR
WOW WOW WOW. What an exciting idea!
I think the best way to look at this is with a satellite image of what sits around this proposed loop. The answer is not much. When the Metro went into Main, it disrupted business and made things leave...some think. If this extension were to happen, it could have the opposite effect. It could create development because nothing of real value is located there.
I would love to see this as I am a fan of growth in the 1st ward and the Cobblestone district. I think one challenge would be the Perry Projects around this development. These need to come down for growth in this area to happen to its fullest.
What I suggest is developers are given the land rights to this area. There is so much land wasted near the Perry Projects. Find a developer who would be able to build a mixed use village in the block bound by Chicago, Perry, Louisiana and South Park. Ensure that they build just as many low income units that exist today with as many market rate units they want. If we can not get rid of public housing in the city, the least we can do is change the way public housing is done. This area could easily house 10k people. Mixed use of low income and market rate homes has been successful in San Diego and Charlotte. In fact, I lived in a market rate unit in "First Ward Place" in Charlotte years ago.
What I am curious about is if there is any potential to make the Metro a private enterprise. Instead of having it run by a public authority, sell the current metro line to a private company provided they build out the line. Put in provisions that the rates stay affordable and deadlines for the growth of the rail. Who knows, a private company might be able to build out much faster and cheaper then the NFTA because it would not be a government project. Who knows, a private company might see the cost benefit of funding this project, a connection to the airport and a connection to the North campus of UB.
Would really like to hear from Gladys Gifford on her opinion on the best, fastest and most cost effective way to build out mass transit in the area.
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Geomike
Al-alo, a cost-benefit analysis might be a first for this community. And considering how little "extra" money we have floating around, and the fact that money was just spent here in the apst without a cost-benefit view, it's not surprising we have 2 control boards. Be careful applying logic, it will get you in trouble.
MJWorthington - totally agree on the dissaster of the 190 (as well as 33 and 198.....). My thought was also to preserve some greenspace below the rail rather than just having a right-ofway taking up space that might be used for at lease plants, and the deer that seem to love that old industrial areas near Bethlehem & outer harbor now. Really, whatever can get done reasonably well, doesn't require billions in bonds or tax levies and doesn't impede future development or harm a community is what we should be aiming for.
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WCPerspective
Has there been any public dialogue of how/where the local share of the casino revenue will be spent? Seems logical that a portion of the proceeds could be used to fund a Cobblestone spur or loop. Assuming the Senecas build and open the permanent casino- thousands of desperate folks will be flocking to the area- why not try to pull them into other parts of downtown with a convenient transit option? Try to get some spin-off from the casino.
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sbrof
A study done talking about Metro rail expansion in Buffalo.
http://www.solomonplanning.com/index.html?id=49,5,8,27
I think this loop is probably pretty cheap in terms of costs. It would be above ground, along existing open and vacant lands or public rights of way. It Would connect a major draw to downtown and a draw that is open 24 hours a day. Plus the most important this that Newell touched on here was the ability to create a new image for transit in Buffalo.
We shouldn't this of our transit system as static and "finished" if anything it should be considered incomplete and WE are not getting the full benefits of such an investment. Connecting to this location, or any other (UB) would provide HUGE draws onto the system.
"2006 UB Campus Transportation Statistics:
- 210 Round Trips between North Campus and South - 2.83 Million riders on UB stampede inter-campus buses - 235,193 riders on intra-campus shuttles - 28,200 parking passes are distributed to UB students and faculty (imagine if they needed drive as well)
so if we added 2.83 million + 40% for UB's growth plans to the subway system connecting to the spine and Ellicott.. it seems like a no brainer. Give these people easy access to University Heights, Downtown, Allentown, Delaware Park, The Zoo. The extension (3 little miles) to North campus could have such a huge impact on our city it bothers me people are not fighting longer or harder for it.
Also lets think about their future growth in the medical campus and downtown. Connecting the campuses together in a manor where you know every student can get from downtown to north in 15 minutes means you can schedule classes much easier.. you can provide faster more environmentally friendly service. You wont have to pay for buses, bus drivers, maintenance of the roadways as much since they destroy the roads quicker than cars. Gas price increases, people can park in safe Amherst and train straight to a play concert worry free....... The list goes on. I don't think there is as much of a guaranteed demand for any other expansion of the system except for this but we keep splitting our efforts on an Airport Connector.
I say lets build this three mile spur that will impact a huge population, both students and residents that transit can work in Buffalo and I bet a lot more people would consider it an option to use or expand. The problem is our train to nowhere is always going to hold us back. We are never going to convince the government that another line is needed if we can't functionally use and take advantage of the one we already have."
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al-alo
RonR,
im not sure that anybody in the US has tried to run a for-profit system in a half a century. there may be too many legal issues and it may be too difficult from a economic perspective. even for-profit buses seem like a tough operation. I think the New York and greenwood lake railway was exploring commuter rail to NYC. but im not too sure if it was ever pursued.
I know others have explored nonprofits have explored the option. the brooklyn street car company (http://brooklynstreetcar.org), has tried with no real progress (much of it do to infighting). but i does bypass the expensive property tax liabilites for miles of track, shops and yards.
i have also heard that the buffalo pierce arrow transportation museum might explore historic streetcars operation. but i havent heard any noise in that regard in a couple of years.
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RaChaCha
This planning initiative makes a great deal of sense in many ways, especially regarding timing. Also strikes a chord with me, as we in RaChaCha identified passenger light-rail/trolley segments as an idea particularly worthy of followup at our major downtown planning charrette in January. In fact, we have a working group that's been pursuing this in conjunction with RRTC (our version of CRTC) - specifically looking at surface-running loops as a major area of feasibility.
One step we took as a followup was to bring in Jim Graebner for a day or two of discussion, meetings with community leaders, and a public presentation. He is a consultant and planner who specializes in light rail and heritage trolleys. His message to us was that the timing has never been better for these ideas and discussions: oil prices rising, new and more "user-friendly" federal funding mechanisms for projects, renewed interest in walkable/green community planning, a growing body of successful projects and experience in more cities, increased recognition of positive impacts of these projects in terms of spurring development and increasing property values. Regarding that last item, rail loops have much more impact because they are planned, long-term infrastructure investments that developers will capitalize on - whereas bus service and routes (like the park-and-ride service mentioned above) can be spotty and here-today-gone-tomorrow.
Two other recent developments have had ideas like this increasingly under discussion around the country: the book "Street Smart" (http://www.reconnectingamerica.org/public/books) has been generating buzz in the planning community - we gave copies to our City Hall officials - and even conservatives have been "stepping aboard" for rail transit (http://www.renewamerica.us/columns/weyrich/041112), broadening support across the political spectrum.
I think that expanding the scope of this study to look at a "Larkin Loop" makes a great deal of sense. The folks at CityView Properties recently commissioned a kickin' plan for the Larkin District, and might well "kick in" to help fund a planning study that looks in their direction. And if the study results look good, having know-how-to-get-things-done folks like Doug Swift and Howard Zemsky of CityView on board would be a real plus in terms of implementation.
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icecreamsub
wow, not one negative comment yet. I guess it helps when the topic doesn't involve some archectectual design (more shrubs, build closer to the sidewalk, no one story buliding etc) or demolition of something old, dusty and sacred. I think everyone can agree that this is a great idea, i'm just not so sure that anything beyond this small loop makes any economical sense....if you factor in costs vs usage it seems like a huge risk. I still would love to see it grow I just don't see it happening in my lifetime...especially since I've kind of let myself go lately. Although I never thought I would ever see the day when Buffalo had a bicycle taxi so I guess there is still hope.
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ntdrew
I think this is a great start, I also like the idea about going just a little further to the Larkin bldg.
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impressingagent
The casino is bringing a multitude of elements and I am kind of glad to see another group show interest in buffalo (especially with the real casino dollars being spent). It's a project that has to incorporate itself on the rail line and to do anything less would not be taking buffalo seriously. (so design a rail station and this time hire real artists, not the wwf impostors) All of the new bulky buildings going up around the 190 deter the isolation buffalo was suffering from. This casino will make such an impact on the fabric of the cobblestone and heighten the entertainment experience. The city is looking for a shadow of light
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al-alo
oh yeah. while not a self financed system, syracuse has ontrack, operated by the privately owned regional railroad, the NYS&W. silly me.
but you think metro rail has problems. you aint seen nothing. it only operates wednesday to sunday, and has no morning service until almost noon. and the system is cut in two pieces by a bridge they just cant seem to get built (familiar?). good luck to our protransit friends in central NY.
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doc
Who is Newell?
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Denizen
Funny how a lot of people hold a double standard to rail travel by flaunting the ignorant "it should fund itself" attitude, while turning a blind eye to federal-built interstate highways and federal bailout airlines and it's massively costly infrastructure.
As far as privatizing rail transit is concerned, there is no way a private entity can make a profit on rail unless their role is relegated to just operating the trains and marketing service to the general public. All the infrastructure and capital costs (tracks, tunneling, stations, signaling) needs to be covered with public funds. Same way as highways are built and maintained by the fed. govt. With Airline travel Same thing with airline travel.
For rail to work in this county (both urban and inter-city) there needs to be a massive infrastructure investment. Inter-city trains having to share tracks with freight trains (the freight carriers like CSX own the tacks and get first dibbs on passage when there is congestion) is just plain unacceptable. Passenger-only trackage would make 50-300 mile inter-city travel competitive with driving and flying. When a strict train schedule can be stuck to thanks to reliable infrastructure, then private operators might have a good chance to run trains. Even without true high-speed service, standard trains could make a Buffalo to NYC trip in under 7 hours--about on par with driving but minus all the traffic headaches getting into the city and paying steep parking rates.
Ditto the public investment on urban rail projects like a metro rail expansion in Buffalo. Built several lines and suddenly downtown becomes a much more desirable place to live, play, and do business.
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BuffaloNY
Expanding the subway along this loop would be a great start to the expansion of the metro. It would help to grow the cobblestone district and having a stop at the casino would help the casino and the rest of the city. I ride the subway everyday and I think that expanding the subway up to UB north would greatly incresae ridership. The expasnion to UB would gain UB students and all the people who live out in Amherst and work downtown. I would run the line straight from UB south---down niagara fall blv and eventually to UB. Make a couple stations at the campus to increase ridership. This would connect UB to downtown and the Boulevard Mall.
Another thing the Metro needs to invest in are turnstyles when you walk into the station. The metro is done on a honor system and something we all know...there aren't many honest people left in the world. Adding ticket turnstyles would help increase seomthing called Revenue thus making an expansion more appealing
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BuffaloNY
Expanding the subway along this loop would be a great start to the expansion of the metro. It would help to grow the cobblestone district and having a stop at the casino would help the casino and the rest of the city. I ride the subway everyday and I think that expanding the subway up to UB north would greatly incresae ridership. The expasnion to UB would gain UB students and all the people who live out in Amherst and work downtown. I would run the line straight from UB south---down niagara fall blv and eventually to UB. Make a couple stations at the campus to increase ridership. This would connect UB to downtown and the Boulevard Mall.
Another thing the Metro needs to invest in are turnstyles when you walk into the station. The metro is done on a honor system and something we all know...there aren't many honest people left in the world. Adding ticket turnstyles would help increase seomthing called Revenue thus making an expansion more appealing
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11111inBlo
I've been reading about the CRTC for about 5 years now, but for what ever reason they seem to get no press. Once and a while they will get someone to write in to the opinion page in the buffalo news, and once even got Don Esmond to write about them. Truth is that they have great ideas, but from what I've seen they are REALLY bad at getting the word out. They are also in DESPERATE need of a web site that does not scream "un-professional". I'm sure that someone here would be willing to help with building a new web site for these people. Heck, they don't even have their own domain name!! You know domain names and free hosting only costs $25.00/year....
Anyway, here is a link to a map of the metro rail system with the new proposed loop:
http://bimactive.com/ba/ui/route_detail.php?f_routeID=13040&m1=routes&m2=myroutes
What I also think is interesting is the divide in the thinking that this area has. Everyone who reads this and takes the time to post probably lives in the city. We see how great things are in the city, but those people who live, work, shop and play in the second and third ring suburbs NEVER come into the city. In an area of ~1.2 million only us ~0.3 million live in the city. The big thing that needs to be achieved is a paradigm shift for those people who find no reason to ever come into the city, much less use the metro rail. Just this weekend my 87 year old grandmother who is a lifelong Lancaster resident referred to downtown and said "you know they'll shoot you in your car down there". This is the biggest problem facing Buffalo. I say this because to get this paid for you are going to have to tap into the great regional tax base, not just the tax money that comes from the city.
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sbrof
ok well my post disappeared but I will try again...
Why does this need to be a loop? It makes the route a dead end, making it more difficult to further extend it out into the larkin district or beyond (Central Terminal, Airport). While I most like extending this route to the outer harbor and using the Amtrak line to extend east to the Airport any expansion is welcome. I just don't like the idea of spending money on infrastructure that as soon as we want to expand again becomes obsolete.
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georgethomasapfel
Always handy to have visual aids, I put this together using my Hamburg Canal Overlay Map:
:
You can click to see in a larger size on my Flickr pages.
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ChicagoObserver
At the risk of being negative, a 1.2 mile loop will still cost a good bit of money, likely scores of millions of dollars. Transit is very expensive to build. It is not something to undertake as some sort of lighthearted experiment or on impulse. Come one guys, live in the real world. Buffalo has no money of its own to build this, and will be competing against cities with real and proven transit needs for federal funding. If you want to advocate transit, pick a route that makes some sense for the region, like UB/Amherst or the Airport.
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RisingDamp666
Portland Oregon is planning to spend $5.2 billion on light rail. That's commitment. If Buffalo were to spend half as much, a UB North extension, an airport line, and a circulator such as that proposed above would simply happen. It would be nice to see Cheektowaga get a lot of frontage because that community needs a big boost. A further extension out to Lancaster would make sense, as well as a South Towns line. It beats the hell out of building new highways and it neatly lays the foundations for Buffalo's rennaissance.
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cltpie28
I tried to see CRTC's website and evidentlly there is an account issue.
None the less I don't think anything will happen until we get someone to head the NFTA that is a little more pro transit.
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LivingForge
Clearly connecting the existing line to UB is critical (the beggiest no-brainer in town), and then an airport connector. But as long as they're interested in doing this, then at least taking this line out to Larkin @ Exchange makes sense (also connecting it to Amtrak as the Larkin Loop returns to Main St.).
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LivingForge
beggiest = biggest
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chris69
I think its short sighted myself
The planned airport line continues down South Division to the Larkin District
The planned southtowns line continues down South Park
It only seems logical that instead of planning a return along Perry that the line be extended to say Hamburg or Van Rensaeller go north to the Larkin District and the return along South Division.....then they would be feeding 4 growing segments of Buffalo. 1) the Wharf/Canal District 2) the future Convention/Conference District which I hope surounds a rewatered Ohio Basin 3) the Larkin District 4) ECC downtown Campus
the loop as it is planned now....all of Perry Street would be a waste.....the future is Furhmann Boulevard, Ganson and Ohio Street. Perry is only one block away....as soon as the Light Rail is extended further south....the Perry Street loop becomes redundant.
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