Buffalo Rising Online

Wow, I can just imagine the foam coming from his mouth. I couldn't have said it better myself. It makes me sick when I read Esmonde's garbage on this issue. I have a feeling the news won't be giving Paladino's view much or any exposure. I'm glad BRO printed this.

That is awesome. Awesome, awesome, awesome. YOU TELL 'EM KARL! I couldn't agree with you more.

Although I like incusivity in community planning, I am shaking my head in agreement with this letter! He is bold, and speaks the truth. This retail project has far better potential and benefits for the "mudpile" that is downtown waterfront space. I liked the argument that someone raised in Boston. In light of the many historical places in Boston, the number one destination for people is Quincy Market. RETAIL! Obstructionists, you want green space? Take a 5 minute walk to Erie Basin Marina. Check out LaSalle Park. Go out to the vacant Peir. Or the Tift Nature Reserve, see how many people you find there!

If Bass Pro does come, I think we need to look no further than the lifestyle center concept that the Walden Galleria is undergoing right now as an example of just a slice of the pie that needs to be constructed down there to make things work. All across the Northeast, hell even in Yonkers, NY and you will find profound redevelopment on the water, combining a mixed use element of unique niche retail, and residential projects. The museums, parks, historical aspects will only compliment this, throw in the removal of the skyway, and we might just have a destination!

Wow! Thank you Mr. Paladino. Someone needed to do that along time ago!!!

Bravo Mr. Paladino, Bravo!

I think if more of Buffalo's leaders were like Paladino, we'd get a lot more done here.

Just as I predicted. This waste of time so called "preservation" of canal side would destroy the reputation of legitimate preservationists and preservation efforts. Very sad day for Buffalo when we lose a real treasure in the future because of this wasted effort to create a fake historic village and festival plaza. Paladino is already leading the charge to weaken any future ability to save true historic buildings and streetscapes.

The group trying to block Bass Pro are NOT preservationists they really are obstructionists.

I wish Carl or someone with his fortitude would set up a "tent" down on the NFTA-controlled waterfront. Look up the word YURT because that's what I'm referring to as a "tent." Think about what would happen when this person would be asked to leave the property...

Steel,

I disagree that this will "destroy the reputation of legitimate preservationists and preservation efforts."

I think most intelligent people can see the difference between a *legitimate* preservation and green space on the inner harbor.

Thank God someone in this town has some business sense!!!

I don't see paladino involved in the deal so he's a sideline commentator like the rest of us. As a developer he naturally has a disregard for all things government, aka master plan. Go ahead and call tielman and others obstructionists, rip on Fisher for using tax incentives for a preservation project, but the new harbor plan disregards the master plan required for it to be designated a redevelopment area, and historic preservation tax credits are law.

I have to agree with BP, the tone is a tad too hostile although CP's points are well taken. I say to all involved "No more lawsuits", It's not like there's something there now that will be bulldozed. Go with this project. (BTW- isn't it Tielman not Thielmon?)

This isn't about green space, its about the continued suburbanization of the waterfront. But everyone seems to want this so what do i know other then the building obstructs 600 linear feet of public access to the water, blocks all views from Main Street to the water (reason why the little rock was moved), demands a parking garage on the adjacent bock where cobble stone streets and sandstone sidewalks are planned, is a single use structure replicating other retail establishments found all over western new york, replicates itself just down the the thruway (ie not even a regional draw), has a footprint that as designed changes existing built conditions that will have to removed wasting more taxpayer dollars, gives away the rest of the adjacent land to the biggest strip mall developer in wny, and paladino would rather see the asbury church in ruin.

That computer model really has everyone transfixed. (it must be all the steeples)

and who on earth would want want to hang out in a plaza under the skyway?

This is so anti-city it is not even funny. but as everyone seems to think- apparently this is the best buffalo can do.

Mr. Paladino, thank you for saying what some of could, if we had the position to do so!!!!

use, access, circulation, scale, views.

it's suburban. it is not about what the building actually looks like, it's how it functions.

Viking said...... "Free parking, good selection, and reasonable pricing, entices me"

Hell....that would entice anyone....but we can't survive on that. Free? Free parking? Free public transo? Is this france?

How can our economy thrive or even survive on free?

Carl makes a good point about the stone throwers at the Buffalo Snooze. Ask them if we can take there parking ramp away from them.

Like it or not....parking and parking ramps are a necessity in most cities. We are no different. So, do we abandon this project for our disdain of parking ramps? Seems silly.

I've bad mouth Carl a million times on this site....but not today. Nice letter. Thank you for saying what we are all thinking.

Boston and New York don't succeed because of free or cheap parking, people pay to go there cause there's something to do, as well as comprehensive transit systems that allow you to park further than two blocks from your destnation.

As far as Bass Pro not looking like any suburban retailing, isn't the Galleria adding a historically themed "mainstreet" facade? This is nothing different.

Suburban is not a horrible word. All communities have suburbs.

But if by suburban you mean 100,000 sq ft, immediatly surrounded by 450 surface parking spots.

Then you need to look at the plans again. And put some glasses on.

This is very mixed use....retail, open air market, boat launch, park space,office, hopefully apt, an arean, a lake, mueseums, possibly a casino, restaurants, bars........all in less than a one mile radius, and most of which is already there.

What suburban location has that?

How is this subruban? Because of a couple of fairly well hidden parking ramps?

This letter is awesome! Couldn't have said it better myself!

600 linear feet of waterfront blocked by a single tenent, single use building.

Buffalopundit...........great point.

I love Boston, i love Quincy Market.

And I love parking in the ramp right next door to the market.

I then proceed to walk that entire area for hours on end. Spending money in the shops, bars, restaurants, ect.

I think we need to take some of the BRO Bloggers on a tourn of NYC, Boston, Toronto, Baltimore area, and look at all the parking ramps. And all the great developments around those parking ramps.

BUILD OUR WATERFRONT DEVELOPMENT.

nyc said.... "600 linear feet of waterfront blocked by a single tenent, single use building"

Do you know how long our waterfront is?

Look, this project is in many ways either going to make or break Bflo's future and the fact of the matter is that it is not Paldino who will be majorly involved but Benderson. If there's another name synonomous with suburblandness I don't know who that would be.

Then we'll take you on a tour of buffalo and look at all those parking ramps, and the great development around those....oh wait...

GREAT LETTER!!! I'm glad that someone who has some influence, filnally got mad! Fewer tnan 1000 nay sayers in all of Western NY continue to stymie development, while the restof the community suffers. When will they realize that EVERYTHING in Buffalo is old, and we can't preserve all of it?

PS: I support Bass Pro in the waterfron in Buffalo, but don't think it will be an end all, be all. I was in the Houston Airport over the weekend, and noticed that they are putting a Bass Pro in the Airport!

"You make it sound as though you have a grand constituency. Aside from the twenty (20) or so "preservationist" predators who parasite on this community, the rest of us scratch our heads and wonder why you get such legitimacy on the front page of a paper."

That is a great question. All this talk about the open air plan that the community supports confuses me. I never got a vote. Any of you? How do obsructionists like Tielman et al get so much credence? They all praise sites like Quincy Market in Boston, where is the big green festival ground there? I go there quite often and park in big parking garages and shop in big retail stores and it all seams to work. It reaks of ignorance and lacks legitimacy when they argue Quincy Market is the model, yet they fight all the elements that make it work. This "historical green space" argument goes right up w/ 33 Gates Circle residents sueing for their "air flow" as the most assinine complaints the a-hole obstructionists have come up with.

Benderson does not decide what to build, the tenants and the town/city do. FACT.

Sit through a site/plan submittal process in the town of Amhrest. The town has building codes, it tells the developers what construction material to use, how far set back from the street the buildings should be, how much parking each business should have. Benderson/developers build on specification set forth by the town.

Instead of focusing on who is building this.....we need to focus on our city ordinance and codes.

this was the one location the city could actually reconnect to the water. This was the only location where we could connect the street grid where you could walk down a street in downtown Buffalo and at its terminus see open water. Imagine walking down Montague street in brooklyn heights towards the promenade and instead of the sunset and passing boats you see a big bass pro store. A street that ends in a vista to water is of higher value then a street that does not. Basically bass pro jumped all over the highest value property to claim it its own and to hell with the rest of the development parcels.

NYC?

What is the value of that land and that waterfront today? How much revenue does it bring in? How many jobs has that view and vista created? What spin of development does this view create?

But i walk and bike the waterfront, i can honestly say there are many opportunities to get to the waterfront.

(not trying to be disrespectful to you NYC - I appreciate your opinion)

nyc,

you must be looking at a different plan than me because I see streets that end in water vistas. I do think that it would be a mistake if they do not include other small retailers into the large main building along the water edge. This could easily be done but only if people work together to improve the plan. The reactionary reject everything mode of operation common in WNY is not productive and is probably destructive.

As for the supposed "approved plan", what did that consist of? a few sketches of fakey historic buildings, no tenants and no buildings. Sounds like a real plan to me

The Little Rock had always blocked that view from lower main street. now that it is opened with the moving of the little rock at a cost of millions to taxpayers we are then going to block the view once again with a giant store. Its not about getting to the water, surely one could find their way. Its about making it effortless as it is in so many other cities. I am not opposed to development of the central wharf, i am opposed to overwhelming it with a single tenent building.

It is good to hear an honest / contrarian opinion aired in an open forum. I commend Carl Paladino for his courage and honesty. I believe that we have beat the dead horse of waterfront usage in previous threads, so I find NYC's diatribe to be rather troll-like at this point. Let's focus on the matter at hand and take the opinions concerning the look and feel of the Basspro idea back to one of the previous threads on this matter.

Lloyd street, prime slip, hanover street, and perry street will all have their views terminate in bass pro.

urbanesque.. so ignore people and who don't agree with you and let's move on to whether bass pro should have green awnings or blue?

How dumb is that? someone is going to go down there to stand in the middle of a street to look at water. Walk a few blocks and you can see all the water you want. In fact you can dive in if you have your shots.. GO CARL!

STEEL- I completely agree that other retailers must be incorporated into a building of that scale on the water. unfortunately that is not in the works and will not happen becasue so many people are will ing to just lay down for this project. also the views will be blocked from those upland streets.

So Linda_D how many jobs have you created, and how many Buildings have you constructedt? Oh and by the way, just building those developments generates hundreds of very good paying jobs for the construction trades.

Is TommyBoi and Denizen the same person ?

Well, I think Paladino is alittle "NUTS" and "OBSTRUCTIONIST" himself!

Lets be honest JUST HOW MANY OF BUFFALOS WONDERFUL BUILDINGS WERE DEMOLISHED FOR HIS PARKING LOT FETISH! HOW MANY TIMES DID PALADINO CONSIDER AN EMPTY LOT MORE VALUABLE THAN A DOWNTOWN BUILDING THAT NEEDED TO BE REHABBED! AND HE IS LECTURING BUFFALONIANS AFTER HIS PARKING LOT LEGACY!

Know lets inject some honesty here! 1) Bass Pro wouldnt have even wanted the site if the preservationists hadnt won their demands to redig and rewater the original slip! 2) All developers and preservationists will only benefit if a large commercial wharf is rebuilt....from Erie Street to Michigan Ave....and incorporates the Naval Museum and the DL&W! NOTALLPRESERVATIONISTS WANT MORE PARKS AND GREEN SPACE....MANY WANT JOBS AND A VIBRANT 24hr WATERFRONT AND DOWNTOWN! 3) All developers and preservation and preservationists will benefit if the skyway is burried in a tunnel, if the Chruch Street access ramp from the skyway is eliminated and if the Elm Street Arterial is relocated to say Jefferson (Kensington) and Louisiana (I-90) The Expressway and Thruway access ramps need to be moved further away 4) All developers and preservationists would benefit if light rail were extended and the original street grid were restored.....making land more valuable for buildings than for parking.

THIS SEEMS LITTLE MORE THAN A TANTRUM FOR BASS PRO....AND I DONT EVEN THIS WE WOULD HAVE BASS PRO IF IT WASNT FOR PRESERVATIONISTS.....WHICH MEANS THAT PRESERVATION AND RESTORATION ACTUALLY MAKE AN AREA MORE VALUABLE FOR DEVELOPERS.....NOT LESS!

NYC - it is not about agreement or disagreement, it is about rehashing the same tired conversation again and again. I am not going to say anything else as you have voiced your opinion and will continue to ram it down everyone else's throats until you feel that they have heard you. I have no time for insecure and anxious people like you.

Actually the plan never called for a literal recreation, it called for an interpretive historic site. Also, were there any 100,000SQFT buildings down there originally...

NYC,

You don't get better planning by filing law suites. You get fake historic roads waiting for never to come fake historic buildings and never to come tenants

I don't believe that Paladino has any civil interest whatsoever. My impressions of Carl have changed over the last 20 years. I once thought he was great for Buffalo because he was savvy and knew what he was doing or talking about and, above all, a guy in Buffalo that got things done. Believe me, this set of impressions were in the mid-1980's, an era in Buffalo when many others who supposedly wanted a better Buffalo talked us to death. However, it's very clear to me now that Carl's interest in any project in Buffalo that he is not directly involved in is not one of imagination about the future of Downtown Buffalo but one of determining what the opportunities are for him and Ellicott Development that can be derived from this project. Carl does not like preservationists, probably not as great a dislike than the dislike he has for former Councilman Jim Pitts or Patrick Hotung but close. When preservationists killed Carl's plans for the Bryant Stratton buildings he made his thoughts about historic preservation crystal clear. These thoughts included his opinion of old buildings as worthless, undoubtedly the same reason why some of the properties in his portfolio are allowed to die a "demolition by neglect" passing, his opinion of preservationists as Ludites and his praise for the "new" because it's now and not the Buffalo of 1901. Carl also doesn't like the idea that some of Buffalo's other developers might become more competitive with him if opportunities were presented to them instead of him. My case in point is his opposition to a $10 million publicly funded subsidy that Uniland requested to make their numbers work on their AM&A's proposal. while "buying" the Berger's Building from the city for the whopping price of ONE DOLLAR. Why is that not a public subsidy similar to the one Uniland wanted when the public taxpayer, as represented by the city, is denied the market rate value of that building? Back in the 1990's when the Buffalo Casino discussion started, Carl made` a comment to a Buffalo News reporter that no one should oppose the Casino because it's Buffalo's future. Talk about being cynical, that Buffalo's only hope for its future is in the gaming industry??? It's also interesting that Carl bought quite a lot of property on the near East Side over the last decade that he then sold to the Senecas that expanded the Seneca's sovereign state while taking these properties off the Buffalo tax rolls. I'm not saying that Palidino had advance knowledge of the Casino's location but he never had any plans for developing these properties, biding his time just waiting for an opportunity to appear. So when Carl goes off on the Bass Pro location lawsuit what he's really upset about is the possibility that some of his opportunities nearby the Bass Pro site might disappear. With Bass Pro as the lead tenant for retail on the Waterfront, there will be other retailers interested in sites. At a near future time when Bass Pro is under construction, Carl and Nate Benderson, another very interested waterfront developer, will be making their plans for a waterfront littered with Rite Aids and Delta Sonic Carwashes.

I say the hell with the waterfront and redevelop Main St. it would be nice to be able to walk in a main commercial district, and its already in place...nothing fake there, room for big boxes and small stores, parking a plenty.

STEEL, We are not getting planning in the first place. With the huge public investment in this project I believe we could have a better result. What if retailers/ developers competivily bid on the 25 million instead of the development corporation continuing to chase bass pro? Bass pro could still bid if they like. Handing out that much money you could certainly jump start mixed use development on the adjacent blocks.

Well well well... never really cheered for c.p's success but somebody with a mouth and some clout had to say something, couldn't have picked a better "villian" myself. ( I use the word "villian" loosely).

Yes he's demolished more than his fair share of history for parking but who is to blame here, the person who demolishes a building for parking or the people who create the situation where the demolition of a building for parking is essential.

Parking is only second to chicken wings in what buffaloanians favor the most. ( I.E. love the parking lot - buffalo news statement).

Lake Erie is quite large... we'll have the open space for walking/shows and its not like you can't get infront of the Basspro building to see that "special part" of Lake Erie that Bass pro will like adjacent to. NYC.... Brooklyn heights views are nice but the area there isn't that great at all... much more could be done with the real estate while still incompassing those wonderful view of the water and Manhattan. Seems to me that its a glorified Elmwood avenue with NYC prices?

An large sub. investment in Basspro is essential because its an anchor tenant, other follow if this are done correctly. As it looks now things are progressing at a steady pace, but then again money generating businesses don't like law suits so its getting to the point where I wouldn't expect anything fast.

Bring a book next time you're on the waterfront... because there won't be anything to do there for the next 20 years. Thank YOu obstructionists.

Ooo and P.S..... everybody takes advantage of taxpayer subsidizies..... its the way of life in NYS and how business is being done on a national level every day.

Smaller businesses and retail developments are in the plan for the basspro development, however are often ignored due to the large size of this "big box devil".... read up on your homework people.

I do believe that Erie Street is in the queen city waterfront plan to be realigned down in the waterfront village, recreating the original radial street shooting out from downtown to the waterfront. As for Paladino, have we forgotten about Berger's? What about the toll booths? 50 Court Street? And for those harping about the waterfront development, bringing in 40+ households costing $500k sure adds to our shrinking tax base. Isn't it funny how quickly we can forget about the positives..

Paladino's quote: "No one cares what we looked like in 1945. We care about what we are going to look like in 2010" should instead read "I (Paladino) don't care what we looked like in 1945. I care about how much money I can make creating more parking lots before 2010." Some people, myself included are interested in maintaining and creating historic atmospheres downtown and elsewhere. Cities that ignore their own history are so fake and have no character.

I have had business dealings with carl.........i hate the man! most who have dealt with him, would say the same.

but...i'm very happy with what he said.

Come on already....this region has been stuck in the mudd for DECADES. We are forced to close schools, libraries, churches, hosipitals, ect, ect.

We need development, revenue, new tax streams, jobs........

Yet we are all content on argueing about small details in a larger plan.

Build bass pro already. we need to move forward.