Buffalo Rising Online

These projects are kind of like "new" new-urbanism

Much nicer than the KC example but sounds like it is still pretty iffy. Not so different than the Buff.

This would be a wet dream for Buffalo.

I always thought that the real key to revitalizing downtown Buffalo would be to build a new NFL stadium for the Bills.......if we don't lose them!!

Imagine 80,000 people tailgating for the games. Hotels and bars would be full. Buffalo could build around it, much like St. Louis. It would greatly help the lack of critical mass in the city.

Having that sh!t hole in Orchard Park is a waste - all that revenue belongs in the city!

At the time the Baseball Stadium and the Hockey Stadium were built at the edge of downtown and thus at the right place but now I think they they are in the wrong place.

The hockey stadium should have been atleast one street over because it cuts off Washington from South Park. Its minor thought.

The Baseball Stadium should have been in the cobbstone district where the potential for large block developments exist. Cutting off Seneca and Ellicott was good at the time but gets worse as time goes on and downtown develops.

The only thing I can say is that Buffalo shouldnt sacrifice its downtown grid nor should it sacrifice its dominant period architecture. Buffalo is 60% empty so there is plenty of room for both,...and plenty of room for infill projects and those infill projects could be connected for a big project but we Bufalonians have to come to the realization of what we are doing.

The current whar district is restoring the canals and the street grid. Plus the wharf district is being developed as a series of small inter-connected projects..contrary to what people say BassPro may be a big project but its only about the same size as the Spaulding Building that existing at that location 100 years ago. Bass Pro will be either preceded by or followed by other projects of similar period design but on the whole its not one big simultaneously designed uber project which is why it will be successful.

Big uber projects create alot of really big mistakes....other than demolitions...many of Buffalos mistakes can be corrected as new development proceeds forward.

Ahhhhh St louis has a photo negative version of the Main Place Mall tower!

80,000 people 8 days a year will do little for downtown. Especially when you consider the amount of parking we would have to accomodate, probably expand the highway infrastructure. You'd be making that part of downtown completely uninhabitable the other 357 days of the year. Not to mention, that 100's of acres of land required for a stadium, parking and infrastructure would all likely be taken off of the City of Buffalo's tax rolls Baseball stadiums aren't ideal either, but at least thats 80 some home dates a year....

Man, Gaustad, between promoting downtown stadiums, and your idea that all other projects are going up in flames because of no casino....you really should probably time warp back to the urban renewal era of enormous projects to wipe out sections of cities for a single use as economic development that we saw back in the 50s, 60s, and 70s. You'd fit right in.

Gaustad, on point as always. It would seem like having 80,000 people in the city (mind you, on a Sunday) would be an ideal situation. Granted, the argument would be that it would be a bunch of drunken morons flooding the streets, but the simple point is, bars, restaurants and hotels would see significantly more business than the 4 or 5 "dive bars" currently around the stadium. Additionally, how cool would it be if there was a stadium in somewhat close proximity to the subway? City and northtowns residents could actually make use it, not to mention it could potentially cut down traffic pre/post game. Also, if the Bills AND the city are hoping to attract Toronto business, why not lure them into the core, not Orchard Park. If we are trying to build up Buffalo and everything that is Buffalo, let's get these people here, not 25-30 minutes south.

I know, this all looks fine and well from a hypothetical standpoint and the fiscal end of things make it a near impossibility, but I guess it's good to dream once and a while...

why is a new stadium ONLY used for a 8-10 bills games a year? would it not have a retractable roof allowing for conventions amateur and or compeitions hsbc could not handle and even 4-6 UB football games? it probably won't happen for 15 years if ever BUT a new stadium most certainly could be used for more than just a few bills games c'mon

Exactly, mybuffalo. A stadium, or venue, can certainly serve as a multi-use commodoty. Even if only for football, if you were able to draw week-long business conventions into downtown's core, let's just say for the sake of it, eight times per year, possibly from, oh I don't know...TORONTO, wouldn't that help quell this lack of ability to sell corporate suites, which is ultimately what would and could drive the Bills out of town?! NFL football is a lot more than a game these days. We are talking about an industry whose revenue system has propelled teams from $25-30,000 investments into $1 Billion dollar net worth operations. Much the way the city wants to draw people and business from Toronto, so too do the Bills. Why not put together a plan to tie both together?

"The hockey stadium should have been atleast one street over because it cuts off Washington from South Park"

Yes, Larry Quinn damaged the street grid when he built the arena. It's time for white Irish guys to start holding him accountable.

Gaustad is too funny 8 games a year will save Buffalo

Steel, according to you, there is nothing wrong with Buffalo.

yes, you are right it is a long shot, but without sounding too crass....the people in this town really have nothing else to live for besides the Bills and Sabres. I sincerely believe that more people would move downtown just to be close to a new Bills stadium and I am not joking.

I have heard that from many people.

I'm with ya, Gaustad. The city needs all the more pulse it can get. Like I said, those eight days have the potential to bring a lot more than just eight day's commerce. Those who disagree have never been to a real city that markets its professional sports teams as more than a one-day event. Tampa has an entire community that has evolved in their arena district, including a functional monorail system. Phoenix has built essentially an entire new city around their football complex. I know, I know...these are warm, wealthy cities, but unless Buffalo makes ANY type of agressive move, it will be stuck as a crybaby, deadend city that makes wrong decision after wrong decision.

I have news for everyone, no one in this country cares about the Erie Canal except for a select group located in Buffalo. that is the cold hard truth. The idea of spending all kinds of money on the waterfront is to attract people from outside the area to come and spend money.

All of Glendale Arizona is based around the Cardinals complex, bars restaurants, shopping. In addition to having a new football stadium downtown you would also have concert venues, othe sporting events in the stadium, etc.

I know it is a long shot, but Buffalo would really benefit from a retractable dome stadium down town before a Bass Pro, or Erie Canal project that no one gives a sh!t about.

Gaustad and CRobs - Like batman and robin but their superpower is stupidity. So if you two live here (not that I know or care) does that mean that you have these same boring lives? Or are the two of you looking down on us all and pitying our existence? Losers.....

Well said, Gaustad. The cold reality is often a hard pill to swallow. I'm intrigued to see the plethora of conservative responses that should almost certainly follow...

Haha. I love it. Look how mad you are. Do you feel better because you were able to belittle someone's opinion? It's not a matter of "pitying your existence," but more so looking at what other cities have done that has succeeded. Think outside the box, my friend (despite your illogical shot at me). All I am saying is a new stadium certainly has a slue of pros for a city that has no pulse in most of its downtown.

Make sense, BuffaloDave, or don't you quite comprehend?

The economic impact of stadium-building has been studied by actual, qualified people. The results have been mixed, to be generous. In general, the huge sums of money used to build new arenas could have been better spent elsewhere.

See, BuffaloDave, some people actually look into what they are talking about, rather than just blurt out ridiculous commentary. Well said, Colin. Clearly there are always two sides to the story. My main point is that other cities have found ways to generate business in and around their sports venues, making them appealing places to enjoy life, and not just sports. Channelside in Tampa is a wonderful example. Has anyone ever been there? Nice place, right?

I can see both sides of the arguement here.

I used to live in Nashvegas and they have their stadium downtown accross the Cumberland River (majority of businees is on the opposite side of the river). There was nothing really nice in the area before hand, now they have a stadium and some huge parking lots. Although they sit dormant 90% of the year they did a really nice job with the area. The stadium and parking lots are a vast improvement from what they had before. Just do a google street view, it looks pretty nice.

The stadium does add to the downtown look, but doesn't add more business during downtime. Actually downtown Nashville really lacks much to do during the day anyways, especially on that side of the river.

Gameday traffic does get a little messy downtown even though it's about 1/4 mile from a major highway. Traffic in Nashville is just bad to begin with, but Sunday during home games is just aweful. There is no rail in Nashville and people don't really boat that much (it's hot through November there). The tailgating tends to be a lot weaker and I notice a lot of people show up later and leave earlier, thus causing more traffic.

Yes having the stadium downtown does add business during events, and they usually hold a lot more events becasue of weather and the music scene down there.

If you are in favor of building something nice that will make you more proud of the city then heck yeah build it. If you are on the side where every square inch of downtown needs to be utilized 365 days a year, then heck yeah oppose it. This is one issue where I could go either way, but I'm more on the side of build it.

I always thought the Bills stadium should be more than just a stadium, it should be an entertainment plaza like the Patriots are building. That being said I'm not sure how many establishments would be visited since half the fun of a football game is the tailgating. The Ice bowl was an extra special event on its own, but there was also a variety of things to do that normally aren't offered during the Bills game.

Gaustad

If you think I find nothing wrong with Buffalo you have not been reading what I have been writing.

Gaustad

If you think I find nothing wrong with Buffalo you have not been reading what I have been writing.

Historically, the original Bills Stadium was supposed to have a roof....and it was supposed to be in Lancaster off I-90 to attract Rochester and Batavia fans but Jack Kemp over in Hamburg wanted it in Orchard Park forced its relocation. Infact the lawsuits surrounding that relocation were just settled a few years ago because relocating it at the last minute .... yes .... robbed the stadium of the funds for the planned roof.

Colin, hey they should be held accountable...its a design flaw...I said its a minor one...and that the Baseball Stadiun blocking Seneca and Ellicott are much worse but there is nothing wrong with stating an obvious truth.

Gaustad's quote I have news for everyone, no one in this country cares about the Erie Canal except for a select group located in Buffalo. that is the cold hard truth. The idea of spending all kinds of money on the waterfront is to attract people from outside the area to come and spend money.

THIS IS JUST PLAIN AND SIMPLE BS. I HAVE WORKED WITH PEOPLE FROM ALL OVER THE COUNTRY AND ALL OVER THE WORLD. WHENEVER SOMEONE VISITS BUFFALO, NIAGARA FALLS OR ROCHESTER THEY WANT TO SEE AND TAKE BACK SOMETHING ENTIRELY UNIQUE (ESPECIALLY IF THEY ARE INTERNATIONAL). BELIEVE ME THE ERIE CANAL IS RIGHT UP THERE AS AN INTERNATIONAL WONDER WITH NIAGARA FALLS. THE DIFFERENCE IS THAT NIAGARA FALLS IS A NATURAL WONDER OF THE WORLD WHILE THE ERIE CANAL IS A MAN MADE WONDER.

IF YOU LOOK AT THE MAJOR MAN MADE WONDERS OF THE MODERN WORLD BEING CONSTRUCTED IN ASIA AND EUROPE AND THE OIL COUNTRIES OF THE MIDDLE EAST.....THERE IS GREAT RESPECT FOR MAN MADE WONDERS IN THE US LIKE ERIE CANAL, DC MONUMENTS, ST LOUIS ARCH, THE WESTERN DAMS, ETC.

GFaustad is right. What would the area surrounding Wrigley Field in Chicago be without the stadium? Same with The San Diego Padres, their new downtown stadium incorporated old factories right into the outfirled with condos overlooking the outfield. It is amazing if you ever get the chance to leave Buffalo, which clearly many oif you people dont

You cant blame all this on city/suburb stuff. A great deal of Buffalos failures come from Albany control over Buffalo institutions and politics, then of course there are the unions, and lastly the minorities that get hired for affirmative action but of course perormance then becomes prejudicial and political.

The result is huge unfunded albany mandates that kill everything outside of NYC. The secondary result is that Buffalo doesnt spend any money on investing in its own city. They dont have street sweepers, they dont plow, the dont fill potholes, they dont replace street lights, curbs, sidewalks, water mains or sewars nor do they safe streets or have public schools on par with suburbs.

Buffalo will never get families back into the city with public schools that have the perception of inflated grades, unsafe conditions, 50% drop out rates, or communist experiences that value social engineering more than college entrance exams.

Buffalo has GREAT BONES but she is emaciated. There will be no big projects in Buffalo because of buracracy and unions but also because this city cannot and does not attract families. Few busineses are going to risk their money on a corporate office sandwiched next to two adjacent buildings with delinquient property owners that wont maintain their building because they want to demolish it for a parking lot.

BuffDave, (deleted- off topic) travel the country a little bit, get a clue and maybe you will understand what I'm talking about....(deleted)

BRO -

how is it that BuffDave can call me a loser, but I can not call him the same. Are you biased?

I'm not the one that turned the cheerleaders into pessimists, its was or city government. It was a matter of time before the natives became restless. Don't blame Daddy.

BuffaloDave - (deleted) - a stadium downtown would be great, and dont argue it would take up "usable land" because we have more than enough (called the entire East Side)...im sure the residents there would be willing to take $20k buyouts for houses worth $2-3k (or a handleful of any white powder) ...like others have said having the Bills intertwined with the city and hopefully starting to bring businesses in from out of town (Toronto, NYC, Boston, etc) it would be great for morale as well as marketing business, as well as hospitality. Now if only the Bills could solidify a long term lease in the city (even if Ralph, tear, passes) by the county/city negotiating a rate SO LOW that no other city could compete (don't worry we have tons of cheap land), and somehow keep costs down by using PRIVATE contractors as much as possible. I would never make it a dome, for the wind/rain/snow off Lake Erie make the games the best in America and having a dome would make it lose its charm. Coupled with advanced rail to/from the airport as well as other local metros (tor/pitt/clev/roch) there could really be some potential there....

this site seems to now be split between those that are well traveled with good business sense vs. those that never left Buffalo and have no clue.

we are almost there....

tonyarmani, watch out, BRO has a thing for BuffDave, you may get deleted tooooooo!

Downtown football stadiums prove to do little. Baseball stadiums are more successful considering the amount of times they are used in a year. Football stadiums are used at most 20 times a year (factoring in potential concerts, events, etc.) To make matters worse Buffalo is a tailgating town. People won't go to bars and tailgate in parking ramps. Any Buffalo football stadium will require massive stretches of parking lots. Not ideal for a 24/7 downtown. The stadium in Cleveland is wonderful, but occupies such a prime piece of real estate. It's used so little and being at a bar at 9am is just not the same as the parking lot with a grill.

Another side note that people have considered and studied is ways to have stadiums also act convention centers. The proposed stadium for the west side of NYC for the failed 2012 Olympic bid and then the Jets was going to tie into the Javits Center and expand the very cramped convention center in NYC. A new convention center and a stadium downtown (NOT surrounded by miles of parking lots) I'd definitely be more open to.

1. To use Wrigley as an example of a stadium spurring economic development is odd. It's the oldest (or second oldest) stadium in the big leagues. It wasn't built as a way to attract investment downtown or create a district our of whole cloth. The modern attempts to so that have a mixed record.

2. When evaluating the success or failure of these stadium projects, it isn't enough to make a visual comparison of the before and after. You need to objectively evaulate the economic impact of the project as compared to its cost. And often, the costs are greater than the benefits.

tonyarmani: a stadium downtown would be great, and dont argue it would take up "usable land" because we have more than enough (called the entire East Side)

Yep, I'm thinking of a spot around Best and Jefferson st. I'm sure the white folks won't be scared to go down there!