Buff/Niag Region: 13th best real estate market in the nation

Buff/Niag Region: 13th best real estate market in the nation

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The National Association of Realtors just released 2007 4th quarter home prices and it represents more great news for Buffalo/Niagara real estate. The Buffalo/Niagara region was the 13th best market in the nation out of 151 regional markets in the report. Buffalo/Niagara saw a 9.1% increase in single-family home prices from the 4th quarter of 2006. The actual price increase rose from $96,000 to $105,400 in the twelve-month period. This news is even more positive amidst the backdrop of the national statistics which showed a median 4th quarter price drop of -5.8%. The price increase was also enough to move the Buffalo/Niagara region out of the nation's top ten cheapest markets for the quarter.

This quarterly price statistic is even more impressive when you take into account that the 4th quarter (Oct., Nov., Dec.) represents what are traditionally some of the weakest months for home sales. The fact that this quarter had a median sale price of $105,400 is significant because it was higher than the average of the median sale prices for the first three quarters of 2007 ($101,933) taking into account the strongest months, which are traditionally the middle quarters of April-September.

Hopefully these statistics will show people in Buffalo/Niagara and nationwide that this region is a safe and increasingly profitable bet for real estate investment. Here is the link (PDF) to the full report.

digulios

What Others Have To Say

  1. Biniszkiewicz

    4 ratings12345
    Feb 15th, 09:56

    Nice to see values holding. I'm in real estate and this article makes me feel lucky (because thirteen is my lucky number: shoe size is 13, name has 13 letters, born on the 13th. . .). Maybe I'll get lucky with a real estate post: anyone want a killer deal on Grant Street?

    Saw a lot of discussion a few blogs ago regarding Grant Street. Here's a killer opportunity for someone with vision, time and perseverance: former D&K building, on Grant (almost at the corner of Ferry). Three story turn of the (20th) century brick building, 30,000 square feet (10k'/floor), usable retail on the first floor (was in use until last year; electricity and heat still on; sprinklered, too): Asking sale price REDUCED to $85,000!! (founder of D&K died, estate wants out of all real estate).

    Feel like you were born too late to get a good deal on something for the future? Here's your chance!

  2. rb66

    2 ratings12345
    Feb 15th, 10:42

    We still need to get control of the Erie county taxes.

    Homeowners, checkout the NYS MANDATED MEDICAID portion of your tax bill. IT'S OUT OF CONTROL!

    My Erie county property tax has gone up over $500.00 in three years due to the annual increase in the medicaid mess.

    ENOUGH IS ENOUGH! When does it end?

  3. reflip

    1 ratings12345
    Feb 15th, 11:12

    Ahem...

    Dear NYC and LI based "development" firms,

    Please begin rampant speculation in Buffalo so we can continue to peddle real estate as a get rich quick scheme. Buffalo-Niagara is the next Silicone Valley! Get in on the ground floor.

    Thanks,

    National Association of Realtors

  4. RonR

    4 ratings12345
    Feb 15th, 11:52

    Time for a little reality check...

    Buffalo and WNY, while having a stable market does not have a great market when you consider things like taxes.

    Of course you can get a great home in Buffalo for $125k but the taxes on that home are equal to other parts of the US on homes twice the price. What does this mean...

    People in Buffalo pay the same amount as other parts of the US but LESS of that money goes into building equity and too much goes into supporting the bloated government enterprise. Ask any person with an ounce of common sense what they would rather do. Buy a home for more, potentially see it slide and recover in the next 10 years, all the while building equity and reaping tax breaks. Or you can buy a home for less, see if grow but in a slow method and still pay the same amount monthly without the tax breaks by paying taxes.

  5. sbrof

    1 ratings12345
    Feb 15th, 12:03

    As long as we stay stable I will be happy. Slow and steady increase in jobs and values is great. The problem is we need to reign in the slow and steady increase in our taxes as well.

  6. rubygreta

    0 ratings12345
    Feb 15th, 12:14

    RonR - I don't know about that. I'd rather pay $125,000 for a home with $4,000 in taxes in Buffalo than pay $250,000 for the same home with $4,000 taxes in Charlotte. That additional $100,000 costs an additional $600 to $700 per month.

    You are right, however, if Buffalo taxes increase by twice the rate of inflation (or more). However, if the government can ever get its act together and keep the increases below the rate of inflation, the Buffalo house is a very safe and good investment.

  7. sally

    6 ratings12345
    Feb 15th, 12:18

    RonR: said " Of course you can get a great home in Buffalo for $125k but the taxes on that home are equal to other parts of the US on homes twice the price. What does this mean..."

    What it means is that houses are much less affordable in other areas. Not only do you have to pay the same amount per month in taxes but you must also pay more per month in Principle and interest - A LOT MORE.

    You do bring up a good point that is often over looked. Though our tax rates are higher than average our REAL taxes or "Property Tax per Square Foot" are basically in line with the national averages. A 2,000 sq foot home in suburban Buffalo pays pretty much the same annual property taxes as a 2,000 sq. ft. home in the average US community. In fact according to BNAR our taxes per square foot average out to be 3 to 5 percent higher than the national average. It is only our tax rate (skewed by low prices) that is far above the national average.

  8. Biniszkiewicz

    1 ratings12345
    Feb 15th, 15:05

    reflip: that's good.

    I was shocked at the sudden level of interest in Buffalo real estate from outside Buffalo two years ago. I sold an apartment building I owned personally. At least a dozen seriously interested parties hailed from NYC. Three more, including the eventual buyer, lived in California (the buyer had four other apartment buildings in Buffalo, all acquired in the past few years. She sold them all a year after she bought mine because her restaurant in Mammoth, Ca. was foundering for lack of snow and skiers. She sold my building for $55k more than she paid, to another of the prospects (from Long Island) who wanted it when I sold). I had people from Phoenix and Tucson and Washington state.

    One interested party was a trio (two in-laws and a friend) from San Jose. They'd just purchased a four unit together on Walden near Transit (brick apartments on the north side, west of Transit). Reason? They could afford to. Back home $1m bought a beat up four unit in the ghetto. Here they could grow some equity. they hoped.

    One looker was a screen writer whose income was feast or famine. He'd sell a script and get a big chunk and then would have nothing for a year or so. So he'd buy an apartment building somewhere affordable instead of investing in LA. He owned one in Baltimore, one in Rochester.

    The level of interest in Buffalo three years earlier was nil. It's explosion coincided directly with skyrocketing real estate values on the coasts.

    The shame twofold: too few locals step up to the plate when good investments are cheap (see d&k above); and second: there are lots of bad investments to be had (too many housing units exist for the population, reducing the market and therefor the value of many to virtually nothing).

  9. thinker

    3 ratings12345
    Feb 15th, 15:43

    Ron's dead on, depsite what everyone might think. The reality is, I looked at a house in Indy the other day, yearly taxes were $1400 on a $250,000 house. Do the math on the monthly mortgage and taxes, them realize that indy is growing, taxes do not increase at the rate they do here, their govt is lean and mean and runs like a well oiled machine.

    Nothing will ever change here. taxes will always increase, govt depsite decreasing population will always get bigger and that is a major deterent to business because as much as the high taxes here could be argued as OK for homeowners, they're not for a business, and that's all that matters for our future.

    Look, this news is not news at all. It's not like we haven't had good home prices. They always been good. But the reality is, they're good because the overall economy is not.

  10. rubygreta

    4 ratings12345
    Feb 15th, 16:11

    Actually, Buffalo did not do that great. Syracuse was #2 on the list.

  11. NewBuffalo

    8 ratings12345
    Feb 15th, 16:44

    forget medicaid, look at the school tax's in the suburban areas. that is our REAL TAX problem. teachers making high salaries and paid time off, health insurance and retirement packages better than any private sector jobs. And they still cry poor! they want more and more every year. sadly the money goes here and not to benefit the kids.

  12. TjR

    0 ratings12345
    Feb 15th, 18:02

    Biz,What is the address of this property on Grant?

  13. BROKEEPSBLOCKINGME

    5 ratings12345
    Feb 15th, 18:12

    Ron R... You are right on brother. A 300k home pays exactly the same amount in monthly payment as a low taxed metro city as a 150k home in buffalo. Nevada Arizona pay less than 1% in annual prop taxes (0.87% in Nevada) thus 3.5 in WNY is more than 350% higher than places with lean governments and growing economies and populations. Just a fact.

  14. bflorox

    2 ratings12345
    Feb 15th, 18:33

    Here's another fact. A friend of mine recently moved from Amherst to Connecticut due to a promotion in our company. He now has to commute an hour and a half to work to be in a burb that is affordable. He moved into a house similar in size, quality and style to the one he had here. He paid $100k more for that house and does save about $1000 a year in taxes. He also does not live on a paved road and has to put his own trash in the back of his car and drive it to the dump himself. Yeah, aspects of this area may be f*%#@ed up, but there are so many other parts of the country that, overall, are way more f*%#@ed up than here.

  15. gaustad

    4 ratings12345
    Feb 15th, 19:45

    bflorox - that just doesn't make me feel any better -

    300k house here with avg of 9000/yr in taxes is the same monthly payment as a 550k house in Arizona or Nevada. The house will eventually go up in value and you will have a beatiful property with a swimming pool plus amenities.

    No comparison, sorry, taxes here blow

  16. RisingDamp666

    6 ratings12345
    Feb 15th, 21:29

    Buffalo's rising real estate values attract attention while 5,000 houses are slated for demolition. Is this a Fellini flick, or what? Which of these two worlds is the real Buffalo? And does anyone outside the logrolling daisy chain that is the real estate industry really care about this "heartening news"? You save those houses and fix them up then see what comes across the wires.

  17. vgs

    6 ratings12345
    Feb 15th, 22:25

    New Buffalo - spend a year teaching todays brats and tell us that teachers are overpaid. A masters degree is required and they are responsible for molding our future. Why the hell shouldn't the make a whopping 40-50K. Thats not a whole lotta dough. And I'm not a teacher, the pay is to low and the work is to hard.

  18. al-alo

    3 ratings12345
    Feb 15th, 22:29

    gaustad,

    im afraid cant go along with that. sure the taxes blow a big one. but nevada real estate prices going up? in the near term - not in this market. in the middle term, probably they will rise (but you wont be allowed to fill that pool). in the long term the water runs out, and thats game.

    ------

    not that im an expert in our local real estate. but here i go anyway:

    the post war suburbs, the white flight that started in the 60s, and the final near collapse of the east side was/are generally difficult things to stop legislatively. however, the city's policies only exacerbate the issue.

    without the ability to sell foreclosed homes, banks ignore the property until it collapses, is demolished or burns. when a home doesnt sell at the city auction, it sits for another year. and after vandals sack the house (and i dont mean the germanic tribes. hopefully that doesnt make byron brown the same as Romulus Augustus), it still doesnt sell. eventually, the same results as bank ownership.

    without exercising a heavy hand by seizing property with code violations -even if the owners cannot be found - or allowing city owned property to be sold below value (or even given away) existing housing will continue to degrade.

    as those houses molder away, they diminish the neighborhood around them, depressing prices, and continuing the cycle.

    additionally, a mortgage for low cost homes (say under 25K) is difficult to obtain. a city run or sponsored program to underwrite these loans would help stabilize neighborhood where the prices are depressed but the stock has not completely been destroyed.

  19. NewBuffalo

    10 ratings12345
    Feb 16th, 06:13

    Vgs.... I am talking about $70,000 a year salary, summers off, a million holidays and snow days. retirement package in your early 50's. I have an engineering degree and have to work a FULL 12 MONTHS, travel and deal with A HOLE customers that are much tougher than the brat kiddies and I get no where near the benefits and job security of a teacher. AND I AM PAYING MY SCHOOL TAX FOR THIS.

  20. NewBuffalo

    11 ratings12345
    Feb 16th, 08:03

    Vgs....spend a year working in a steel plant in detroit....driving home on the weekends (every other weekend that is). working 17 hrs straight for 2 days starting up the plant under high stress and being barked at by the customer for a thankless job. I WILL TAKE THE BRAT KIDDIES.....SORRY NO SYMPATHY HERE FOR THE TEACHERS.....

  21. shodoc

    5 ratings12345
    Feb 16th, 09:53

    Wake up and smell the coffee. Isn't it probable that Buffalo real estate is such a bargain in comparison to other regions in the US because it is not a very desirable place to live? Most economic factors work on the laws of supply and demand. If a location is very desirable, like Florida beach property, the prices ski rocket because people are willing to pay enormous sums to live there. When the market gets soft as in the last 2 years the prices move the other way. So don't pat yourself on the back because of a slight increase in the the average Buffalo price of a home. It just means the Buffalo market was not overinflated incomparison to more desirable places to live in the US. One big reason why the Buffalo market is undesirable is the rediculous tax burden to pay for services which other parts of the US get for much less money including the school system. Most people speak with their wallets and their feet. If the population is increasing at a much higher rate in the South and the West, it is beacuse they percieve there is something better there than where they came from. One major benefit is their reduced tax burden. If Buffalo was or became a very highly desirable place to live, then the laws of supply and demand would drive the cost of Buffalo housing to prices higher than other parts of the country. You can imagine how high your taxes would be then. You would be paying more than 5x the taxes that you are paying now.

  22. RisingDamp666

    3 ratings12345
    Feb 16th, 10:14

    I hear you, NewBuffalo, but you're forgetting about all the "benes" teachers at Columbine High School,for example, are getting. Be glad your customers are merely "A Holes", and not psychopaths in trenchcoats and camo.

  23. RisingDamp666

    4 ratings12345
    Feb 16th, 10:19

    And on the subject of taxes, why should Buffalo remain in this feudal system with its overlords in Albany and New York? For God's sake, it's time to secede and write your own code! If Buffalo and much of Upstate N.Y. broke away and slashed taxes, there would be a huge reversal of fortunes so why the constant bellyaching? Act!

  24. Biniszkiewicz

    2 ratings12345
    Feb 16th, 10:34

    Not to mention winter being longer than any of us want. Lower tax and labor costs are the biggest reasons corporations relocate. Nicer weather and jobs are the lures for workers. I like Buffalo and I'm staying here. I can afford to live decently. I like it better than lots of places I've been. But the winters are long and gray. That doesn't bother me so much. But it does bother a lot of people.

    Even with our weather, we could attract jobs and people if our taxes only matched those of our neighbors (matching Ohio and Pa. would be a start, I'm not even talking about trying to match the Nevadas and the Carolinas of the tax world).

    TjR: Re: Grant Street: the listing info (it's another agents' listing in our office, who in turn relies on the Seller's description) gives wrong square footage. Eyeballing it, it didn't look 10k/floor. I measured this morning. It's a little over 6k' on the first floor, a little over 5k' each floors 2+3, so call it 16,000 square feet. apologies. That said, it's a steal. Address: 62 Grant Street, across from the HSBC. It's one building north of Grant on the west side (southwest corner of Ferguson).

  25. vgs

    6 ratings12345
    Feb 16th, 11:17

    I guess you picked the wrong career New Buf and yes New Buf steel plant work is hard but if those workers, and I greatly repect them, invested in a college degree and a masters degree then they could have summers off and make a marginal living at 50k too. I know a lot of teachers that have been at for 15-20yrs and no one is bagging 70K. No sympathy on your Ahole customers, todays kids and parents are are extremely difficult to work with. It almost makes you have no hope in the future. Again, I'm not a teacher, just calling what I see as a parent.

  26. buda53

    1 ratings12345
    Feb 16th, 16:25

    Glad to see all the discussion about our local real estate market for a change. Cannot believe that the local media did not make more of it. Read the morning Snews and, unless I missed it, it wasn't even mentioned. The local TV stations (with the exception of WIBV) said nothing.........Maybe marketing should start at home.

  27. NewBuffalo

    10 ratings12345
    Feb 16th, 18:32

    Vgs.....you miss the point....its the retirement benefits (paid health insurance, pension) that is causing our tax's to sky rocket. Teaching is a public service. private industry does NOT get these benefits. also, Engineers in steel plants do have masters degrees and PHD's as well as other industries and have no job security. screw up once and you can be let go. I am not picking on teachers but if you want our tax's lower this is where we have to start.

  28. NewBuffalo

    8 ratings12345
    Feb 16th, 18:53

    Vgs....if you do your homework and look up teachers salaries for williamsville south you will find incomes as high as $90,000 to over$110,000 a year.

  29. zen

    6 ratings12345
    Feb 16th, 20:10

    NewBuffalo-Couldn't agree with you more. Teachers are the cause for all of society's ills. They're all making at least $100K & only work about four months out of the year after those million holidays. I'm curious though, if it's such a cakewalk & it consumes you with such jealousy why not go back & get your certification? If it's such an easy life being a teacher surely you could make the sacrifice of taking some time off of your miserable underpaying engineering job to give it a try. Teachers in Williamsville (one of the highest paying districts in WNY) who are making $90-$100K are people who have been working for close to 30 + years with coursework beyond a master's. Spend a day in a classroom, esp in the city, and see if you make it out in one piece.

  30. RisingDamp666

    7 ratings12345
    Feb 17th, 00:31

    I was a teacher once. But the whirlwind lifestyle of limos and caviar just began to spin wildly out of control. Some days I would just wake up with a coke spoon still up my nose, look in the mirror and wonder: what happened to the innocent farmboy from S. Holland? I swore it would change but the checks kept rolling in and so did the women, their names and faces all a blur. I think I might have proposed to one of them at Louis Vuitton in Tokyo. But I can't remember, in fact, to this day, I remember little of that time in my life. All I know is that hitting bottom as a middle school Sociology teacher and literally begging the caterers in the loungeroom to quit truffling my Steak Tatare by stabbing a vietnamese bus boy, was the the worst nightmare a person could imagine. Now I'm clean and sober and writing a book between shifts at Delta Sonic. All I can say is that being a teacher is the most rewarding of highs, as well as the most depressing of lows.

  31. TjR

    0 ratings12345
    Feb 17th, 11:44

    Biz- Thank you. Another property on Grant right around the same size is newly listed at 250k.

  32. crosbydee

    4 ratings12345
    Feb 18th, 09:10

    new buffalo....pay no taxes in florida, las vegas, and see what kind of schools you get...all my friends have to send their kids to private school 10,000-15,000 a year...see you dade county public...ps become a teacher then talk you inconsiderate self-abosrbed person...

  33. becker

    6 ratings12345
    Feb 18th, 10:11

    The top base salary for a teacher in Williamsville is $84,000 a year, the actual salary may be higher due to mandatory or optional training and meetings during the summers, pay for coaching and extra-curricular activities, etc. Teachers who are at the top of the salary range, but are not ready for retirement, will still receive a cost of living increase each year that is in line with other teachers; however this additional pay is considered outside of the scope of the teacher's contract. Retirement is based on an average pay of the last [ ] years of service, so it pays for teachers to remain in the position even though they have technically capped out on salary.

    I agree that we do have better schools (suburban at least) than most of the lower taxed areas, but the taxes paid far exceed the services received.

    If you want to improve the situation, then quit electing the welfare friendly democrats to office. The personal, property, and business taxes in NY are prohibitive.

  34. Biniszkiewicz

    2 ratings12345
    Feb 18th, 12:30

    the taxes are prohibitive.

    Teachers need good pay. But teachers discount the cushy schedule of summers off and every holiday off. My wife's parents were NYS union teachers, her sister is a teacher in Charlotte. It's not a bad life. There are many worse. Many people with similar education make less, particularly when one considers benefits.

    It's certainly not always easy. My sister in law (Charlotte, NC), for example, is in a particularly troubled school. She teaches elementary, first grade. Some of her students don't know their colors. Don't know basic shapes like triangles and squares, much less letters, just like the Snews article about Buffalo a week or so ago. These kids are completely unprepared for schooling. Because nobody cares at home enough to even TALK to these particular kids, evidently. How can a child reach the age of five or six, be a native English speaker, and not know colors?? How do you possibly turn that kid's life around? Still, as frustrating as teaching can be, it's not a bad life. I've known teachers whose spouses worked in the private sector and they tended to better appreciate the value of the schedule.

    I don't know why schooling needs to be as expensive as it is. If it were my money, I'd cut out all athletics entirely except for phys ed for all students. I'd bus a lot less (focus on neighborhood schools). I'd encourage charters and vouchers to spark competition. You could forget seniority determining all qualification, if I were king of the schools. And I'd certainly outsource my custodial work, at least in the City of Buffalo. You ever hear of such a contract? "Give us [x] dollars and we'll keep the school open and clean from opening to about 3pm. We won't show you how we spend the money, it's none of your business. And we get to keep any leftover money at the end of the year for ourselves, no questions asked. It's been like that for a century, so go along or we go on strike." I'd outsource that task the first five minutes somebody made me king.

    And if teachers in the City want more respect, they should pick someone other than Phil Rumore to represent them. He sure does not make them look good. That guy alone is worth twenty percentage points of negative public opinion regarding teacher unions. Just Phil being Phil is enough to get taxpayers riled against teachers.

    But teachers aren't the reason NYS is out of control. There's lots of more appropriate blame to throw around: government duplication, inefficiency, uinionism and workmans comp, not to mention the Great Society aftershocks and attitudes.

    I once heard Len Lennihan speak (I was a member of Young Democrats when I was young enough to qualify; the 8th cent sales tax was a controversy and Len was schooling us about NYS taxes). He explained that when Medicare came along, there were a total of 29 optional coverages available to any state which wanted them. They weren't really all optional because a minimum of ten were required. All states had to cover at least ten of the twenty nine scenarios. All states were welcome to choose as many as they liked in addition to the ten which were required. The deal was that the feds would pay 50% of all costs, regardless of how expensive a program the state opted for. New York State was the ONLY state that opted for all 29 options. The result was that the NYS medicaid program was more comprehensive than the state legislators. And it's the most expensive in the nation. That's just an example of the NYS legislator's state of mind: Only the best and most expensive will do. And heaven forbid we step on any union's toe.

    Teachers deserve good pay. But taxpayers deserve a state government competitive with our competition. We see jobs leave, decade upon decade. The reason? Taxes, first and foremost.

    My in laws, the pro union retired school teachers? They refused to retire in NYS. Know why? The taxes are too high! Swear to god. They built a new house in Charlottesville, Va.

  35. NewBuffalo

    7 ratings12345
    Feb 18th, 14:32

    crosbydee....sounds like you have a chip on your shoulder, I think teachers should be paid well for the great job they do, however it should be for 8 months, let them collect unemployment over the summer like the private sector has to do when they do not have to work. With YOUR attitide we will be paying high tax's forever. FLORIDA and VEGAS are for retired people not young families with kids.

    ...BECKER..Well said, I could not agree with you more...

    ....Blniszkiewicz...thats great, your in-laws suck the tax payers dry and retire out of state because they do not want to pay school tax's....

  36. BROKEEPSBLOCKINGME

    2 ratings12345
    Feb 18th, 19:18

    newbuff. Vegas is far from a place for old people...population double over the last 7 years with the bulk of resident between 27 and 44 (65%)

  37. BROKEEPSBLOCKINGME

    2 ratings12345
    Feb 18th, 19:22

    bini... Your relatives arent the exception ... Thousands of goby workers from wny have been milking the teet and then heading for warmer greener tax free pastures for the last 20 years... All of todays current politicians are heading to Florida vegas and phoenix over the next ten years. Just watch

  38. zen

    0 ratings12345
    Feb 18th, 19:48

    Biniszkiewicz- I agree with some of your comments, but what do you mean teachers discount the cushy schedule of summers off?

  39. simcoe

    7 ratings12345
    Feb 18th, 19:59

    NewBuffalo-are you f-ing kidding. You are pretty clueless. Teachers do not get paid over the summer. You have a choice to either have pay spread out during the 1o month school yr (not 8) or spread out for 12 months, with the latter choice you of course make less each pay day. And who has the god damn chip on their shoulder? Bibi's in-laws sucked the tax payers dry? How green can you be? Seriously? You honestly believe teachers are sucking the system dry? Get your head out of your ass & take a look around at the litany of things that are genuinely bilking the tax payers. Let me guess, you're all in favor of the wars in the Middle East that are bankrupting our country for roughly the next four generations. Your simple understanding of things leads me to believe that you must be a BRO staffer trying to stir things up.

  40. NewBuffalo

    4 ratings12345
    Feb 19th, 08:10

    Simcoe...I think you need a "chill pill" AFTER you pull your head out of your rectum. You need to wake up and LOOK at your school tax bill (that goes up almost every year) and ask WHY? The pensions and health insurance benefits to teachers are killing the tax payer. Look at what this is doing to private industry (the REAL world by the way) Delphi, Ford GM....the list goes on and on. The pensions and health insurance AND GREEDY CEO'S are killing the American worker. As far as pay, I don't care if they work 1 month or 10 months at $70,000 you do the math......sounds like pretty good pay for 9 months.

  41. reflip

    2 ratings12345
    Feb 19th, 08:30

    This debate over how many months teachers work is insane. They get paid a salary to do a job.

    Teachers: If you feel you are overworked and underpaid, find a new gig.

    Everyone else: If you feel teachers are underworked and overpaid, become a teacher.

    Then all parties can STFU.

  42. simcoe

    0 ratings12345
    Feb 19th, 09:01

    chill pill? that's a good one. OK, so I asked myself "Why does my school tax bill go up every year?" You know what, it does you're right. But then I also asked why does my property tax go up, my spending on food, gasoline, electricity, clothes, etc.... Those damned teachers are f-ing everything up. Sorry reflip I'll shut the fuck up. But did any teachers hop on here and complain about being overworked and underpaid? Where the hell did you get that from?

  43. Biniszkiewicz

    0 ratings12345
    Feb 19th, 09:41

    zen: I mean that whenever I hear of teacher salaries being inadequate (like every contract negotiation), I hear of comparisons to private sector pay, which is implied to be higher. At the same time, the schedules for the work are not simultaneously compared. Most jobs don't provide nearly the time off that teaching does.

    I once taught violin (this is not to say I have teaching experience; it's not the same thing. I bring it up for this story): one of my students had a mother who was a teacher in a suburban district (junior high, I'm pretty sure). Her husband worked in the private sector. It was this teacher's impression that most teachers had no clue how well they had it. Every day she saw how much work her husband brought home; she witnessed the hours he put in at and after the office. She saw his pay and hers. In her experience, she said, teachers bitch and bitch about how unfair their conditions and pay are, but in comparison to her husband she thought teachers had it made. Her judgment made an impression on me (in fact, her husband ended up leaving the private sector and going back to grad school for his teaching certificate).

    Teachers deserve good pay. All I'm saying is that there is more to compensation than an annual salary. Time off is part of that equation.

  44. reflip

    0 ratings12345
    Feb 19th, 11:22

    Simcoe,

    It's a pretty logical solution. What's your problem with it?

  45. NewBuffalo

    0 ratings12345
    Feb 19th, 11:32

    Simcoe... I agree with you on almost everything going up. I live in a town (believe it or not) that property town tax has gone down 8 years in a row, however school tax has gone up 6 of the same 8 years offsetting my TOTAL property tax to go up every year. This is how to manage city/town government. The town supervisor complains about the school board/teachers union. He says they are "out of touch with reality" and live in their own little world. Nuff said?

  46. simcoe

    0 ratings12345
    Feb 19th, 13:22

    NewBuf how could you have agreed with me on almost everything, it was the complete opposite of what you initially wrote? So this mythical town that you live in has solved all financial problems except for the teachers' salaries & retirement benefits? Your town supervisor must be a genius, has your town lost any services or have services declined... prob not right, they've prob gotten better under his/her tutelage. Also, I think that management complaining that a union is out of touch with reality & that they live in their own little world are two cliches that have been uttered since the Neanderthal period.

  47. AtwaterLouse

    0 ratings12345
    Feb 19th, 13:44

    reflip - That simple approach does make sense regarding pay for teachers at private schools. In that case it's nobody's business but the teachers and whomever pays them. But for public school teachers, their pay is anybody's business who pays taxes - the same as politicians pay is, etc. Just because somebody works as something other than a teacher doesn't mean it's none of their business how tax money is spent.

    Everyone else: If you feel teachers are underworked and overpaid, become a teacher.

  48. tonyarmani

    0 ratings12345
    Feb 19th, 13:46

    A teachers union, like all other union, will only hurt the city in the end. Let me explain to you why unions are bad for everyone:

    Unions kill competition. By having a group of workers demand higher salaries (only because there are a large number of them) they inflate the minimum wage, which negatively affects the entire community. If the teachers were not in an union, and had real competition every year for their jobs, then I would say their wages are justified. If they are getting paid based off of their merits, and not due to their seniority or because they were on strike, and their wages are competitive to other teachers of the same quality and experience, then by all means pay them.

    It is the same problem as auto unions, construction unions, state unions, they just don't work and have a place anymore. Buffalo needs to become the country's most competitive and efficient city. By lowering taxes, offering more incentives to businesses, and ensuring that every single person in public office is the best damn worker (based off credentials, not because he/she is related to the mayor) we increase our chance at becoming a real city again. But for now, these outrageous taxes, strangling unions, and wrongly-appointed officials will screw Buffalo over until it is broke.

  49. tonyarmani

    0 ratings12345
    Feb 19th, 13:47

    *all other unions

    we need to make these posts editable

  50. zen

    0 ratings12345
    Feb 19th, 14:03

    tony-I believe unions are still a necessary evil. Have they become too powerful? That's debatable, since Regan fired all of the air traffic controllers in the 80's unions-in general-have seen diminished influence. Still influential, yes, but not as much as public perception dictates. For some bizarre reason many seem to think that the owners of production have become a benevolent force. I tend to assume that if unions were eliminated for whatever reason, it would not take long at all before serious labor abuses occur.

  51. tonyarmani

    1 ratings12345
    Feb 19th, 14:21

    zen - you bring up some good points, especially about labor abuse and owners of production. Unions need to learn one thing: you don't have to work at the company. Too often the unions believe it is their God given right (like many americans believe) that they have to be employed. You don't. It is employment at will, easy come easy go. I know it may sound harsh, but it is what makes America great. Greed and competition are the parents of innovation, and unions destroy this. Why would anyone try to better themselves if promotion is experience based and not merit based? If you could never get fired, and could stop working to go on strike to make more money, there is no incentive to try and for competition.

    To the argument that unions are necessary to "balance" the evils of Pork CEOs with $500 million salaries: start the same company and take a competitive salary. All the money you save by not paying yourself absorbent amounts of money can be used to make your product/service better and/or lower the price of your good. That, in return, will help earn you more customers, and eventually put the pork ceo's out of business (See Toyota VS GM)

  52. NewBuffalo

    0 ratings12345
    Feb 19th, 16:38

    simcoe....READ CAREFULLY....I AGREE WITH YOU ON the cost of almost everything going up in price.....My mythical town has had the same supervisor for 15 yrs. Services are contracted out therefore COMPETION helps lower out tax burden. The school system has the town hand cuffed with an impossible school board/union. Imagine if they were reasonable, we could lower our TAX BURDEN IN this area and bring in more companies. I know this is a hard concept for you to understand.

  53. nonono

    0 ratings12345
    Feb 20th, 07:10

    LUCKY #13, let the bubble busting begin!

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