BPS Grad Numbers Discrepancy
Superintendent of Schools Dr. James Williams was highly displeased with yesterday's release of a state report as headlined in The Buffalo News.
It seems that two separate reports were released, one showing a low 46 percent graduation rate, and the other, with a much better (though still low) rate of 65 percent.
"We're trying to rebuild the system and regain confidence," Williams stated. "And here they release two separate reports on the same day with a variance in data." Williams contends that even in the report that concludes that there is a 65 percent graduation rate, certain factors aren't included such as 5th year students, transfers, and Hispanic students "who go home for Christmas vacation and never come back."
BPS Executive Director for Project Initiatives Amber Dixon, whose duty it is to provide the state with numbers said that the state doesn't recognize the nuances of students who basically fall off of the rolls due to factors mentioned by Williams above, in addition to those students who simply move away without a word to the school district. "If we had a way to track those students, we would be able to report their status. Unfortunately, we can't get answers to where these students have gone if they've simply moved away with their families."
Both Dixon and Williams agree that an identification number for each and every student would be of great help in tracking out-of-district transfers as well as out-of-state moves. "Give us one set of rules, and we'll play by it," Williams said.
Knowing that the data was going to be released, Williams and the superintendents from the largest school districts in New York "The Big 5" went to the state and asked that they be given time to educate the public prior to the release in regard to the data the state typically leaves out. "Then they released two separate reports on the same day. The superintendent from Yonkers gave a lunchtime talk on the first data, only to return to his office to find the second set of percentages," Williams said. "It's important not to send out mixed messages. We're trying to build trust."
In Buffalo's second report, not only were the student numbers different, but the state's conclusion on the BPS status was that of being in "Good Standing".
While Williams says he's goal is to boost the graduation rate, he'd also like to see a change in criteria in assessing cohort values, saying that this is a bookkeeping problem more than a drop-out issue.
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Activist
Based on what I see, read, and hear, this is not just a bookkeeping issue. This is all about children who are failing! To suggest that Hispanic children are to blame for the district's bookkeeping problems is absurd and possibly racist. Why in the world would the district submit two different sets of numbers? One set of numbers with footnotes explaining that some students had moved out of the district would suffice. However, it strikes me that the district doesn't seem to document that. I've heard repeatedly over the years from people who work for the district as well as those who don't that the district deliberately does not keep numbers on the drop-out rate, because they do not want to lose funding. So, when they are asked for the information, they throw conflicting information at you and talk about those Hispanics who screw up the works, because they keep moving back to Puerto Rico. Well, guess what. Not all Hispanics are not Puerto Rican nor are all drop-outs Hispanics. The whole district and board are so messed up it boggles the mind that they're supposed to be educating our children. Enough!!!
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blackrocklifer
As long as Buffalo continues to be home to the vast majority of the regions poor these numbers are unlikely to improve. Its not about teachers or buildings, its about poverty, and in the last 30 years we have allowed the gap between rich and poor to become almost third world like.
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MandyN
I don't understand your comment. How does the gap between the rich and the poor effect the graduation rate of the BPS?
Please explain because I really don't understand how rich people are demotivating poor people and making them not graduate.
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blackrocklifer
The cycle of poverty that exists today is the result of greed. By reducing wages for working people those in power have made it pretty hard for the average person to make a decent living. This translates into a permanent underclass and the dysfunction that results. The children unlucky enough to be born into this culture have little chance of escaping or succeeding in school. Contrast this with the 50's and 60's when opportunities were plentiful to earn a good wage and many poor did prosper. Its called SHARING the wealth, it worked in America for many years and built the middle class that is quickly disappearing.
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stewie
OK, if anyone read the Jamie Moses article on James Williams a while back you'd realize that this guy is a slimey manipulator extraordinaire and should probably be behind bars rather than sucking in city tax dollars for a paycheck. Why has the district hired the lowest common denominator for the past 25 years?
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MandyNi
So people are earning less today than they did in the 50s and 60s?
Minimum wage increases every few years. Most of career employees receive a wage increase every year that paces with, or beats, inflation.
Is the problem greed on the part of the wealthy or jealousy and greed on behalf of the poor?
I don't see how someone else's wealth somehow takes away from the wealth of the poor, like there is a limited pot of money and the wealthy have taken more than their fair share.
Are you insinuating that the rich have not worked for their wealth? Are you suggesting that the wealthy should give a large portion of the wealth back in an effort to bring up the net worth of the poor?
I ask you what the incentive would be to ever work harder if your earnings will be capped and any additional property or net worth will be distributed to others who may not work as hard.
My Grandfather and father were both factory laborers, my mother did not work, and we were not well off. My parents used this as motivation for my brothers, sister and me to work harder in school. Not studying was not an option and the threat of a struggling blue collar existence was our motivator. We didn't study hard and work on weekends and summer to afford school just so we could subsidize the students who were too unmotivated to even try. Is this what you are suggesting?
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bfloghost
blackrocklifer-of all the lame brain comments your's takes the cake. So dropping out of school is the solution? Is it a battle to grow up in a lower income/poverty stricken family and even come close to achieving the American dream? Of course, but the goal isn't to land a job at McDonald's. & SHARE the wealth??? are you out of your f-ing mind. Whose wealth? 5% of the population? You know how much entitlements are sucked from my paycheck? Graduating from high school is only the first step you idiot, and really how hard is it to get a god damn HS diploma? What are these kids doing when they drop out at 16 or 17 sitting home living off of momma?
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iamBuffalosfuture
wait blackrock lifer has a point.......lets all become communists
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blackrocklifer
MandiNi- Average people are earning less today than in the 50's and 60's and minium wage has not kept up with infl;ation. Contrary to your assumption there is a limited amount of wealth and when one group (the rich) uses their power to take a bigger piece of the pie this is called GREED. And since most wealth in America is INHERITED most of the wealthy have not worked for it. Few argue for a cap on income or extreme socialist policy, just a fair living wage for all. I am old enough to remember when the distribution of wealth was more equal and we did not have the breakdown of society that exists today.
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laundryroomhours
iamBuffalosfuture, in all actuality, communism in theory (it's true form), is the best form of government...everyone works for the common good of everyone, not rich or poor. Sadly, it is human nature to take power when it's there to take. So if humans were so corrupt, the world would be a better place with a commie govt!
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MandyNi
I don't see how you consider wealth limited and I don't see how the fact that someone has more than you means that they have taken your share of the wealth.
I would like to see your facts on how the top 10% of the wealthiest have all inherited their wealth from looters and thieves who didn't work for it. I am really curious on your assertion that the wealthy do not work for their wealthy, while the poor are toiling endlessly for their pittance. I know many wealthy people and I see how hard they work, based on this very limited experience I call you on your comments.
Wealth generation is an ongoing process, not based on a one-time inheritence.
I assert that your viewpoint is based on greed and jealousy of others and not on fact and reality.
If you want to earn more, then take the risks and get a better job. There are opportunities open for everyone. I hear people complain about the salaries that CEOs work, but I also know that the majority of people would never make the sacrifices and risks necessary to reach this level. C-level executives do not inherit their positions, most start from a much lower point in a company and work their way up.
They sacrifice personal and family time, work much more than 40 hours a week, they have attended undergraduate and graduate schools and many have worked hard to graduate near the top of their class to ensure a better position when they graduate. Many work their asses off as middle managers and junior executives to move up the ladder. Are you going to tell them to stop trying because they only deserve to make the same amount of money and hold the same position as the lowest laborers who feel entitled to the fruits of the labor?
You really don't understand much about the world, do you? My comments to the lower 40% of the population who hold less than 1% of wealth need to find a better job or figure out how to reverse the bad decisions that they have made in their lives.
I fully agree that we should support the disabled and the elderly, but I do not agree with limiting the potential of those who work the hardest to share the fruit of their efforts with those who do not work at all.
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blackrocklifer
bfloghost- Did you finish high school? you seem to have trouble following a simple premise so I will spell it out for you, POVERTY=DYSFUNTION=DROPOUTS. Not what we want but the reality.
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MandyNi
POVERTY = DYSFUNCTION = DROPOUTS and by extension WEALTHY = FUNCTIONAL = SUCCESS?
I think I see how you rationalize this. So if we replace poverty with wealth, then we replace dysfunction and failure with success.
It sounds like a typical lack of personal accountability for one's own actions. The poor are there due to a major conspiracy to direct wealth away from them to give it to the undeserving wealthy as inheritence.
Am I correct?
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nick
So let's see what we've learned today. If you don't give up all your personal and family time you deserve to be poor and the solution for poor people is to just go out and get a better job. Perfect, all our troubles are solved. Let's hear it for all those hardworking middle managers out there!
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MandyNi
POVERTY = DYSFUNCTION = DROPOUTS and by extension WEALTHY = FUNCTIONAL = SUCCESS?
I think I see how you rationalize this. So if we replace poverty with wealth, then we replace dysfunction and failure with success.
It sounds like a typical lack of personal accountability for one's own actions. The poor are there due to a major conspiracy to direct wealth away from them to give it to the undeserving wealthy as inheritence.
Am I correct?
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blackrocklifer
MandyNi- Most wealth in America is inherited, not my opinion but fact, google it ,look it up, whatever. I do not advocate for those who do not work but for POOR WORKING PEOPLE. About those people you say "should reverse the bad decisions in their lives" should they start by not being born into poverty? 40% of the population sharing 1% of the wealth, that seems fair right?
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AtwaterLouse
By far more wealthy Americans earned their wealth (over 10 times as many, 69% vs. 6%) compared to those who inherited it.
Excerpt:
'Earnings Growth by Thomas Kostigen Thursday, April 17, 2008
...Most wealthy people earn their money, and because they earned it they feel more secure about keeping it. That's what a new survey reveals about wealth and values.
PNC Wealth Management conducted the survey of people with more than $500,000 of investable assets. The Wealth and Values Survey showed that 69% of "wealthy" Americans accumulated most of their money through work, business ownership or investments; 6% percent received money through inheritance; and 25% gained wealth through a combination of inheritance and earnings.
...
These findings mirror most other studies of the wealthy and how they got rich. Indeed, take a look at the Forbes list of the world's richest people and you won't find many at the top spots who inherited their riches.
...'
Full article here:
finance.yahoo.com/banking-budgeting/article/104858/Earnings-Growth
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Hoss
"The Big 5" went to the state and asked that they be given time to educate the public prior to the release in regard to the data the state typically leaves out." Uhh, you mean they needed more time to spin their BS propaganda? 65% is bad enough. The bully pulpit spin this thug and his disciples on the school board continually preach is getting me very disgusted.
Williams has to go before he gets us even more broke. Before he is able to break the spirits of all the children and teachers that learn, and work in the schools. The faithful block of his supporters on the school board need to be replaced as well.I can't wait til the next school board elections.
Anybody know what happened to http://buffaloskoolmess.blogspot.com/? That was the absolute best place to read about all the shenanigans JAWs, and the Buffalo Public Schools were up to. Seems to have just gone off line last week.
Vote for Pedro!!!
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allfit
Blackrocklifer - I am confused about the inheritance issue. What should happen to money and possessions when people die? Should it all be distributed to the poor? I don't see where the origination of the money makes a difference.
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benfranklin
A manager in the 1950's, acting in his own best interest, might have hired a hundred people to put part A and B together locally. A manager in a similar position today, acting in his own best interest, would probably out source assembly of part A and B to country C. If he doesn't, his firm is at a competitive disadvantage, and is apt to go bankrupt.
I'm not sure that the manager has become more greedy, just his options and the competitive environment have changed. It should be clear to all of us by now, that the gap between rich and poor is only going to widen. Staying in school is your best bet to end up employable. If you don't, why would your standard of living be any higher than those in China or India that you've chosen to compete with?
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estreet
Most of the wealthy in our country actually earn more in what is listed on tax filings as "UNEARNED INCOME" than they do WORKING.
I wish I knew the details of that survey.
phone rings
'Mr. Rich E Rich'
"Tis I,"
'We are doing a quick survey'
"I've little time for such shenanigans I have a tee time at Crag Burn"
'Just one question then,...Did you earn your money or did your daddy give it to you'
I'm actually shocked that 6% were honest.
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estreet
AtwaterL-
please also note this paragraph in the article you quote;
"PNC Wealth Management conducted the survey of people with more than $500,000 of investable assets. The Wealth and Values Survey showed that 69% of "wealthy" Americans"
Simply having $500,000 in investable assets does not a "wealthy," american make anymore. Probably why they slapped the word wealthy in quotes. Perhaps someone under 40 with $500g of investable assets. Certainly not someone who is 65 and retired.
So we are looking at a survey that aims to measure a response from supposedly rich people ascertaining whether they construe their wealth as being from inheritance or work. Yet we throw in a fairly low qualifier (500g in investable income as opposed to 500g yearly income.) Then we also throw investment and business ownership numbers under "work," numbers while still allowing for the likely deception in favor of "work," versus "inheritance."
Good enough for posting...
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blackrocklifer
Atwater- The survey you cite was voluntary, do you really believe many people would want to portray their success as the result of an inheritance? My point was money begets money and most that are wealthy had help and didn't "start at the bottom" . Allfit- the issue was not "what to do with the money when people die" but why one person would want so much money when so many others are poor.
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AtwaterLouse
estreet - So-called unearned income is mainly interest and dividends. If people decide to invest money that they earned directly (and thus put it at risk) instead of spending it on fun stuff for themselves, that's a very positive thing for creating private sector jobs and economic growth.
Anyhow it's nothing to do with the the distinction blackrocklifer was making of inherited vs non-inherited wealth. In that survey, interest and dividends are included in the earned category.
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AtwaterLouse
estreet and brlifer - The survey methodology details are explained here:
http://pnc.mediaroom.com/index.php?s=43&item=571
It was conducted by the Harris Corp, and they didn't ask respodents wether it was earned or unearned. They asked something much more specific (which, sure, some people could lie about but why would be expect the lies to not be balanced on each side?), then they categorized it accordingly as follows:
Data are divided on responses to a question pertaining to the best descriptions of how respondents accumulated the majority of their financial assets.
"Earned Wealth-Only" respondents are those who obtained their wealth exclusively from at least one of the following sources: Occupation, employee stock options, investments (other than residential real estate), entrepreneurship, business ownership or sale of a business.
"Inherited/Other Wealth-Only" respondents obtained their wealth exclusively from at least one of the following sources: inheritance, trust fund, marriage, legal settlement, residential real estate or another way.
Why is it so hard to believe that most wealthy people didn't inherit it?
The national economy has been growing pretty well the past few decades hasn't it?
Doesn't that mean a lot of people are creating a lot of wealth?
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blackrocklifer
Yeah Atwater, a lot of people have been getting rich in the past few decades and a whole lot more have become poorer, no connection right?
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estreet
I stand corrected on their definition of wealth, though it is still fairly low and the author should have mentioned the $150,000 income level on top of the 500g in investable income.
Having said that there is still no mention of the fact people will be more likely to answer dishonestly towards one answer more than the other. (This isn't to different from the problems pollers are going to have in the upcoming elections. Sure some 75% of the State of West Virginia state that race will have no effect on their choice of President but when the curtain closes. Wanna bet they have a big problem with race?)
Now, here are the definitions of their categories:
"Earned Wealth-Only" respondents are those who obtained their wealth exclusively from at least one of the following sources: Occupation, employee stock options, investments (other than residential real estate), entrepreneurship, business ownership or sale of a business.
"Inherited/Other Wealth-Only" respondents obtained their wealth exclusively from at least one of the following sources: inheritance, trust fund, marriage, legal settlement, residential real estate or another way.
Let's take the following specifics found under "Earned Wealth Only"
Occupation, employee stock options, investments (other than residential real estate), entrepreneurship, business ownership or sale of a business.
OK. Now let's take a look at this bio -http://www.chrisleeforcongress.com/Biography.asp
Chris Lee was raised in Tonawanda, New York. Growing up, he saw first hand how the Western New York values of hard work, honesty and accountability turned his family’s business from a small machine shop into a successful, international business with over 20 manufacturing companies spread throughout North America, Europe and Asia. The flagship company, Enidine Incorporated, was located in Orchard Park, New York.
As a successful business leader, Chris created jobs right here in Western New York, had to meet payroll and make tough decisions. He joined Enidine in 1995, and held various positions throughout his tenure including Pacific Rim Sales Manager, Director of International Sales and Marketing and lastly, General Manager. During this time period, Chris once again demonstrated his strong leadership by significantly expanding product and market reach.
Chris was promoted to President of the Automation Group, a division of International Motion Control in 2003. With his sales and financial background, unrelenting work ethic and strong negotiation skills, he concentrated on bringing additional businesses into IMC to make them even stronger. By 2007 numerous manufacturing facilities existed in the United States, Europe and Asia. All told, IMC employed over 1,200 people worldwide and had an international distribution network of over 300 independent distributors.
Prior to joining the family business, Chris spent seven years working in the IT industry. Chris’s various experiences and business leadership has helped him develop skills that will make him the most effective member of Congress. Whether it was creative problem solving, making his company more innovative or simply listening to his employees, Chris has the characteristics to be a great leader for Western New York.
Since the sale of the company, Chris has played a significant role in the formation of the Patrick P. Lee Foundation. The newly-formed family foundation allows the opportunity to give back to the Western New York community.
As a fierce believer in Western New York and the need for leadership to meet our community’s challenges, Chris plans to utilize his extensive experience and proven leadership abilities to create positive change in our community.
Chris earned his Bachelor of Arts in Economics and Finance from the University of Rochester. He also earned a Master of Business Administration, with a concentration in International Business, from Chapman University in California; and Chris and his wife, Michele, are the proud parents of a young son. They reside in Clarence, New York.
Our Chris appears to have some vague experience working in the IT industry prior to joining the family business. Any IT guys want to throw me estimated earnings on that, not a whole lot, right? In 1995 he joined the Family biz. Then the Family biz was sold and our hero went into Charities and Politics. (2 industries famous for fleecing individuals but I digress)
When Chris gets the phone call regarding Earned-Wealth Only versus Inheritance, which does he answer? Which would most people looking from the outside think he should answer?
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AtwaterLouse
blackrocklifer - No, as a percent of population I don't know that 'a lot more' Americans became poor the past few decades. According to this graph by unionized civil servants who work for the U.S. Census bureau (see lowest graph), the percent hovered between 11 and 15% ever since the late 1960s with a most recent level of 12.3% in 2006:
www.census.gov/hhes/www/poverty/povertyrate.jpg
Do they have it wrong?
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AtwaterLouse
e - It depends on what year Chris Lee would get phoned by that survey. Today he'd be in Earned but if it rings after his inheritance or trust fund is cashed, he'll count as Inherited. There's some odd cases in both categories no doubt. Some people who inherit a lot of wealth are also self made to a great extent, and also as in the Lee example some people get jobs handed to them for some time before the inheritance comes along.
If the survey instead happened to phone Chris Lee's dad or his partners who founded and grew that company, you would agree he and they would be rightfully counted in the Earned category, right?
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estreet
estreet - So-called unearned income is mainly interest and dividends. If people decide to invest money that they earned directly (and thus put it at risk) instead of spending it on fun stuff for themselves, that's a very positive thing for creating private sector jobs and economic growth. Anyhow it's nothing to do with the the distinction blackrocklifer was making of inherited vs non-inherited
AtwaterL- I understand what unearned income is, the problem is in the survey. Look to the Lee. Look to the Lee. Our hero Chris has a job given to him by his father from which he earns money from working and being Chris Lee. He invests a bunch of the money (benevolently putting aside those jet skis he so desperately craved) and retires to be a philanthropist and leader of the people.
Once again, the problem is in the survey, and the belief that the majority of wealthy people in America worked hard for their money.
Here comes the survey people again....
Does his investment income count as money brought in from work or inheritance?
What would other, not as well placed individuals with 7 years of experience in the "IT Industry," say?
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estreet
"e - It depends on what year Chris Lee would get phoned by that survey. Today he'd be in Earned but if it rings after his inheritance or trust fund is cashed, he'll count as Inherited. There's some odd cases in both categories no doubt. Some people who inherit a lot of wealth are also self made to a great extent, and also as in the Lee example some people get jobs handed to them for some time before the inheritance comes along."
Indeed there can be carry over in the categories but I would argue that 99% of it would be towards the argument that all the rich worked for their money making this survey a sham. How can one honestly say our hero "worked," for his money. Just because his father isn't dead?!? How about this, his wife would be considered wealthy (and in all honesty I don't know anything about her and am just going to say she is a stay at home mom for this exercise). How would Mrs. Lee answer the survey? Does she think she hasn't worked hard for her wealth?
"If the survey instead happened to phone Chris Lee's dad or his partners who founded and grew that company, you would agree he and they would be rightfully counted in the Earned category, right? "
Of course. (making an exception if the money to start the business came from an inheritance)
The initial argument was Inherited Wealth versus Earned Wealth. I am simply stating that this survey is simply inadequate to measure the differences between the two. I am also arguing that common sense would dictate that our hero's wealth came through an "inheritance". His father does not need to be in a box.
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AtwaterLouse
e - So you're saying the survey's Inherited 6% should be adjusted to add in offspring of the Earned category who through undeserved nepotism jobs they're given at family-controlled businesses have received what should be counted as inherited wealth while their parents are still alive.
Ok, maybe so. But how much difference would that cause in results? Even doubling the 6% Inherited to assume that many people receive Chris Lee style 'pre inheritance' wealth by some nepotism salary before the actual inheritance or trust fund transfer occurs, that would raise the 6% to 12%. Wouldn't that result in 63% Earned vs 12% Inherited ? Not much difference.
Mrs. Lee is in the Inherited/Other category unless she had some phony job at the company too. Again, it's not about whether she personally thinks she's worked for anything. According to the survey methodology, the Harris people don't ask that. They ask a more detailed question, and 'marriage' is then put in the Inherited/Other rather than Earned.
"Earned Wealth-Only" respondents are those who obtained their wealth exclusively from at least one of the following sources: Occupation, employee stock options, investments (other than residential real estate), entrepreneurship, business ownership or sale of a business.
"Inherited/Other Wealth-Only" respondents obtained their wealth exclusively from at least one of the following sources: inheritance, trust fund, marriage, legal settlement, residential real estate or another way.
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heathersmiles
Blackrocklifer - I understand where you are coming from, as I am confident that you have been raised in the union environment where things are often presented as "US vs. THEM".
You probably see the gain of wealth for someone else as a loss for you. I know from my union days that corporate profits and the salaries of management were often portrayed as theft of the working man's wages, so I sort of understand where you are coming from.
You have lived in Black Rock your entire life, that makes sense too. This is a very blue collar community that is still shocked when one of the children in the neighborhood make it to college, especially an ivy league school. College and wealth is not an expectation, maybe this is where the perpetuation of the poverty cycle starts.
I took my kids out of the city to get away from this culture. A culture that accepts students dropping out of high school because many of the adults did the same. I know that parents would rather see their children graduate from high school with honors and attend ivy league schools because this course typically leads to much greater success than dropping out. This culture is also ripe with blame and contempt for the wealthy. I am reading through your comments and you often equate wealth with greed and poverty with injustice. I see a flaw in these associations.
I offer that the "blue collar" mentality is one of the things that holds back the growth of Buffalo. Too many people would rather sit idle than to risk the stigma of being greedy by changing careers or branching out into entrepreneurial ventures. This mentality exists to a much lower degree in the suburbs, I hate to say it but it is true in my experience.
Someone said that you were jealous of the wealthy and this jealousy comes across as contempt. Reading your comments, I think that this is true. I know from past discussions that you tend to see only only one side of an argument, so I don't expect you to grasp the full scope of what others have offered here because it challenges your value system. I offer you that this is the very value system that retards growth and development in Buffalo and I hope you can see the error in your way of thinking.
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heathersmiles
To bring this back to the original topic, I do not see how the Buffalo Schools can offer two sets of numbers relating to one of the most important measures of success.
The real and unaltered numbers show that more than half of enrolled Buffalo Public School students leave high school prior to graduation. I would love to see what that percentage is if we alter the numbers further and back out students graduating from City Honors. In other words, what is the true graduation rate for Riverside, Bennett, etc. If City Honors is ranked as one of the best schools, due in part to higher than normal graduation rates, that doesn't speak highly of the other schools.
Has anyone looked at the Wikipedia entry for the Buffalo Public School, the entries only concern reconstruction of schools, City Honors, and the Montessori schools. What happened to the rest of the schools? This may be telling about the culture presented by the administration, that if you are not in one of the flagship schools, then you are screwed.
I don't believe that the Buffalo Schools are providing service to all students, as evidenced in the various scandals that took place earlier this year. In my opinion, they skim the best students from the schools and segregate them in the flagship schools and then use a variety of tactics to pacify and contain students in the other schools. The expectations are set that if you are not in the City Honors or Olmsted groups, then you are inferior to those students. The best in class at Riverside may perceive her status as less than the middle of the class at City Honors. This culture is problematic and needs to change.
It has been said in many places that the US economy is knowledge and service based, the industrial and manufacturing sectors are on a continual decline. A student who is not equipped to compete on knowledge will be left with service, which we all know does not pay well. So we can complain about the injustice of the rich vs. the poor, and talk about how we need to pay our service workers more money to live, or we can fix the problem and figure out how to change the culture of failure.
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crisa
This topic went from on-topic to honestly ensightful then back to same old same old. The honestly ensightful parts are better than sitting in on a Conference Call! Please, it gets boring reading about "why I left the city". Please, all you ensightful posters, come back!
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crisa
Insightful; I knew that!
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Activist
I don't think that delving into economic theories on poverty versus wealth is really helpful. The issue is that the state is saying that the graduation rate for Buffalo Schools is 46% and the district is saying that the real rate is 65%. In either case, the students are NOT being educated nor are they graduating. The Buffalo School system is definitely broken and all we hear is spin and rhetoric. It's to the point that no one believes anything coming out of the district. I say that someone/anyone has to tell it like it is and take steps to fix it. What we have right now is pure, unadulterated bull---t. A rose by any other name is still...
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crisa
'This is the dawning of the age of the Internet' where so many ARE telling it like it was, (or was perceived to be), and is, (or is perceived to be), or used to be; followed by what will be, (or will be perceived to be)... Sooo many opinions; sooo much space!
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blackrocklifer
Heather- Why do you become so upset when someone challeges your narrow and materialistic view of the world? To disagree with Heather is one sided because Heather is all knowing, even psychic in her ability to profile anothers mindset. What is wrong with advocating for the weakest among us? Would it be better to advocate for the rich and powerful ? Your comment "Black Rock is still shocked when one of our children makes it to college" shows the contempt you have for less wealthy people and the city in general. My comments sometimes push the envelope but only to balance the conservative rhetoric that dominates in America today.
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heathersmiles
Blackrocklifer - Nice attempt at the deflection and redirection back to me, that doesn't dismiss you from my observations and comments about you.
The world is made up of more than the rich and the poor, I hope that someday you will see that there is more than just two extemes in every situation.
Your final statement is a joke! Again, you are talking in extremes. Wealthy vs. poor, worker vs. management, liberal vs. conservative. I see your comments as pushing an agenda, not an envelope.
Cheers!
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blackrocklifer
Heather- "That doesn't dismiss you from my observations and comments about you" Are you my psychoanalyst?Teacher? Heather may I be dismissed?
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AtwaterLouse
Activist - Maybe the 46% vs 65% discrepancy just isn't explained well enough in the BR article for people to form opinion about it. Maybe BR could contact the state eduction dept for a plainly worded clarification, and have a follow up article or add an update to this one.
In the big picture the BPS is a mess so many ways, including inexcusable administration fiascos regularly excused by the board, and the mostly unhelpful power of the BTF, etc., on and on - politics, disfunctionality, bureaucracy, violence, labor battles, etc.
But even deeper than those deep problems is something Heather wrote: 'A culture that accepts students dropping out of high school because many of the adults did the same.'
When so many parents and surrounding communities don't put a priority on education, no school system will overcome that on a large scale.
To give more students at least a better chance at success, the only realistic approach I can think of is to grow the number of charter schools independent of the BPS administration and the BTF. That's an uphill fight due to political opposition. Even less realistic would be to offer some of the $14,000 the BPS spends per student per year as a tuition voucher to income parents so they'd have a choice of sending kids to private schools. That will never happen in NY state, so pushing for more charters seems the best possible step in a good direction. Yes some charters have problems too, but there's more accountability and much faster consequences for those.
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crisa
What was it?..
In 1977 something happened within Buffalo to forever change the course of far-reaching events. Before that, all efforts were stagnant. It was, is, and forever will be the start of REAL change. It had the thrust to get the ball rolling. It happened to our most vulnerable citizens, the youngest amongst us--the children--the younger the better. It effected families that stayed and families that fled. It was considered a horror by some. It was considered a "dream" by others. It became nationally and internaionally newsworthy. It spread to other cities. Not only is it still around, but, ahhh, it is spreading into the suburbs, ahhh!!! What WAS and still IS it?
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crisa
...A judge decreed it. A politician condemed it... Others thought it could never happen to them...
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reflip
crisa,
We give up. What is it?
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stewie
Dropouts=Poverty. In other words, if you drop out of HS you're doomed before you even start. Has anyone mentioned that yet?
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crisa
Whose "we", reflip? Who knows how many people "we" might be? One can only speak for one's self here!
This particular blog is popular; more so than can be judged by its membership or any of the number of hits. As with all things Internet, it ties in with other "modes of transportation".
The celling bunch had no problem with the answer. Why would you?
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Pineapplesun
My child goes to Buffalo Public school and I am concerned that since City Honors is not an option, I am doomed to have a high school drop out.
My choices are just to support his current school and hope for the best
or yank him away from his friends since pre-k and pay for private/catholic school.
The charter schools seem untested to me. Is there any other way? We live in the city and pay tons of taxes...should we move to Williamsville like the rest of the families we know? It's so frustrating because all these statistics don't seem to make sense either. Knowing which schools have which drop out rates would help a great deal.
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Activist
Atwater Louise: Thanks for the feedback. I think the charter school idea is wonderful. Perhaps it's more workable than it now seems.
Having worked in impoverished communities most of my life, I know that the parents are, for the most part, really distressed that they're kids are dropping out of school. So many really pray hard for opportunities for their kids, but being poor and under-educated yourself means that it's really easy for the system to ignore you if you have a problem. I've seen many go to the schools for help when their child doesn't want to go to school anymore and no one responds with guidance. Some are even insulted by the people they contact.
We have to make sure that we don't paint all poor people with the same brush. A lot care, some don't, some don't know how to.
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AtwaterLouse
You're welcome. By the way, any Democrats who favor charter schools and live in Sam Hoyt's district should (can't believe I'm saying this) be sure to vote for him. Hoyt supports charter schools and his opponent Barbara K strongly opposes them. On most other policy matters they sound similar to me.
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blackrocklifer
Pineapplesun- Besides City Honors you might consider Huch Tech or Davinci. Both are good schools with graduation rates as high as any school in WNY. Davinci offers AP courses and has the advantage of having a relatively small enrollment.
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crisa
Pineapplesun: City Honors has quite a waiting list. So do the others, but, besides da Vinci and Hutch Tech, there is also McKinley--despite the bad publicity.
The cell phone was ringing, the thunder rolled, our little dog panicked and I shut down this puter. Sorry.
Busing for integration began in Sept. of 1977. Judge Curtin's decree of unwavering absolutes was in the newspaper. I saved the whole thing.
In the 1990s, those court mandated absolutes were shouted down just when busing would have included the suburbs.
Today, it is no longer necessary to include the suburbs. Natural flow, rerouted in 1977, is causing inclusion!
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blackrocklifer
Crisa- Busing began in the late 1969 when I was in 6th grade. In 1970 we were sent to West Hertel Middle School which was fully integrated with kids bused from all over the city. I clearly remember the debate (sometimes very ugly and racist) about busing and integration. I agree there has been some "natural flow" to the suburbs but its still pretty white out there.
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estreet
When weighing inherited income, a rational person could certainly count all family wealth while ,obviously, allowing for outlyers (blacksheep, etc,). It does not have to be simply what is given to you upon death.
Now let's take a look at the PNC survey one last time.
PNC's fourth annual Wealth and Values Survey revealed that 69 percent of Americans with $500,000 or more in investable assets accumulated most of their fortune by earning it through work, business ownership or investments. This compares to the 6 percent who attained their wealth primarily through inheritance. The remaining 25 percent gained their wealth through a combination of inheritance and earnings.
So 69% say there income was earned via blisters. 31% say they inherited some or all of their wealth.
Now let's take a look at the survey's own sampling error numbers.
for Earned Wealth-Only +/-3.0 percent, and for Inherited/Other Wealth-Only +/- 10.0 percent, combination numbers had no sampling error noted.
Atwater was willing to double the inherited wealth only number to cover my arguments regarding poor questions
In actuality, we can use the survey's sampling error numbers to drop earned wealth from 69% to 66% and raise "inherited only wealth" from 6% to 16%. Now we add the 25% that had some combination of inheritance and work to the "inherited only" column giving us 66% "WORK ONLY" to 41% "INHERITANCE ONLY PLUS COMBINATION INHERITANCE and WORK"
66% of the people surveyed quite possibly did earn their own way. But the issue then becomes the "Wealth," definition.
$150,00 grand a year income and $500,000 in investable income.
Here are the highest paying jobs in the US with their mean salaries
Top Paying Jobs Overall
Physicians and surgeons -- $147,000 Aircraft pilots -- $133,500 Chief executives -- $116,000 Electrical and electronic engineers -- $112,000 Lawyers and judges -- $99,800 Dentists -- $90,000 Pharmacists -- $85,500 Management analysts -- $84,700 Computer and information system managers -- $83,000 Financial analysts, managers and advisors -- $84,000 Marketing and sales managers -- $80,000 Education administrators -- $80,000
With 10-15 years of service depending on the occupation above, partners income, etc. All these people and their partners could be a phone number on that questionaire.
From the Article:
...Most wealthy people earn their money
From Atwater: ...By far more wealthy Americans earned their wealth (over 10 times as many, 69% vs. 6%) compared to those who inherited it.
From Estreet: ...A majority of respondents who fall in or above the upper middle class eanr their wealth with no assistance from inheritance.
Oh, and by the way; the sampling error actually doesn't adequately cover respondents who will be damned to say they would be nothing without their family or their spouses money.
The facts are, the nation's wealth remains in the hands of relatively few from generation to generation and if you are one of the have nots, you are more likely to be erroneously figured into public school rating charts.
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estreet
HeatherSmiles-
Loving the line regarding the perpetuation of the poverty cycle. How wuould you argue one would begin to perpetuate a WEALTH cycle ." Hard work?
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Hoss
If you come from wealth, odds are you are eating a better breakfast. Let alone, a breakfast at all. If you come from wealth, odds are you you're parents are reading to you at night. If you come from wealth, odds are you have better options for pre-school, and learning some fundamentals ahead of time. If you come from wealth, odds are you you're being exposed to external cultural institutions. Museums, theatre, exposure to world culture by experience. If you come from wealth, odds are you have access to consistent medical care. If you come from wealth, odds are you're friends/associates are from the same background which makes getting perks easier down the road. If you come from wealth, odds are you your family has a car so they can drive you to Tapestry, or Nardin, so you can get an education w/o the usual disturbances/distractions associated with the public schools. If you come from wealth, odds are your parents aren't working three jobs to make rent. If you come from wealth, odds are your older sibling didn't get caught up in the gangster life. If you come from wealth, odds are your more informed about birth control. If you come from wealth, odds are you have at least a little bit of hope for the future.
People with trust funds, or a background of wealth can absolutely be hard workers. But they have the tremendous advantage of connections within the system. The "old boy's club" if you will. That compounded with a steady access to health care, proper nutrition, a safe place to live, and a family that can provide them a supportive background makes the game a hell of a lot easier.
But regardless, the Buffalo Public School system is near busted. It's corrupt at the top (Resul-tech, City Honors, or McKinley for example). It's misguided (year round school, cut the arts and sciences,WTF???) And the current leader of it is nothing but a thug. A thug with a good Baptist style declamation to get his immediate underlings all fired up, so he can eventually piece-meal out (can that be a verb?) the most important of public institutions to the lowest bidder. Or should I say, the one with the biggest kick-backs, or future job offers...
Tax payers, parents, anyone who lives in this community, should be completely outraged by the shenanigans currently going on with the Buffalo Schools. Sure it's not as sext as Bashar's motorboat, or the parking lot at Pano's, but this is the children we are talking about. And they are the future of this city. That my friend, is guaranteed.
When are the next School board elections anyway? Next May? Not soon enough. To those who did eat the cake, enjoy your final days of control. I can't wait to vote.
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crisa
blackrocklifer: Build Unity Integrity ? and Dignity...(sorry, I don't remember what the L stood for) but it spells BUILD Academy, which was the first magnet school already in existance when full scale busing started in 1977. In 1977, it was at the school on Fougeron.
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blackrocklifer
Hoss- Well said, you did a better job of explaining my original post "that most wealth is inherited". Wealth is not just money, it's connections, opportunities, and access that just doesn't exist for the poor.
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AtwaterLouse
blackrocklifer - How do you explain it when immigrants achieve economic success in America?
Or when their first-generation offspring do?
Unfair connections from generations past can't explain that, right?
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AtwaterLouse
e -
1. Yes in addition to starting a business, those careers you listed are good ways to start building wealth. How that list fits with your other points isn't clear.
2. I did link to the statistical range of error. Wasn't trying to hide it. Although error is equal chance to be plus or minus, you imply it's only the direction you prefer. How you look at a 69% to 6% overwhelming majority of wealthy Americans becoming so by ways other than inheritence, and twist that into claiming it shows the opposite is quite an accomplishment. Congratulations.
3. They didn't just ask respondents whether their wealth is earned or inherited, as you keep saying. They assigned categories depending on type of source answered, as described in the methodology. Yeah ok they didn't subtract for the Chris Lee possibility of a high paid nepotistic job. You don't seriously think that's how most wealth is built in America, do you?
4. No doubt the survey isn't perfect. None is. It's interesting though. Harris is a very reputable survey firm. Yes respondents might lie, in either direction. It's also interesting to see reactions saying it's so impossible for Americans to become wealthy by a way other than inheritance, unfair connections, nepotism, etc.
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AtwaterLouse
e -
1. Yes in addition to starting a business, those careers you listed are good ways to start building wealth. How that list fits with your other points isn't clear.
2. I did link to the statistical range of error. Wasn't trying to hide it. Although error is equal chance to be plus or minus, you imply it's only the direction you prefer. How you look at a 69% to 6% overwhelming majority of wealthy Americans becoming so by ways other than inheritence, and twist that into claiming it shows the opposite is quite an accomplishment. Congratulations.
3. They didn't just ask respondents whether their wealth is earned or inherited, as you keep saying. They assigned categories depending on type of source answered, as described in the methodology. Yeah ok they didn't subtract for the Chris Lee possibility of a high paid nepotistic job. You don't seriously think that's how most wealth is built in America, do you?
4. No doubt the survey isn't perfect. None is. It's interesting though. Harris is a very reputable survey firm. Yes respondents might lie, in either direction. It's also interesting to see reactions saying it's so impossible for Americans to become wealthy by a way other than inheritance, unfair connections, nepotism, etc.
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estreet
3. They didn't just ask respondents whether their wealth is earned or inherited, as you keep saying. They assigned categories depending on type of source answered, as described in the methodology. Yeah ok they didn't subtract for the Chris Lee possibility of a high paid nepotistic job. You don't seriously think that's how most wealth is built in America, do you?
Yes ... I do.
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