Buffalo Rising Online

cool...been wanting to do this for the longest...

I'm there - was baptized at the old "New" St. Joe's and have many memories there - lighting candles, stations, etc. I was really bummed when I returned to Buffalo and saw it was a high rise - used to love the flying buttresses - that's what really made the building stand out from most.

Bob: Your digression on the "war on Christianity" is absurd. We live in a nation in which 85 percent of the population identify themselves as Christian. We have a born again president who routinely proclaims his Christian faith. Christian holidays, symbols and traditions infuse our culture. Christians enjoy all the privileges of a vast majority in this country. To suggest there is a war on Christians is an insult to religious people elsewhere who have suffered actual persecution. Try walking in the shoes of a member of a minority religion in an America that is gripped by an aggressive brand of Christian proselytizing. Then you'll see the absurdity of your contention that there is a so-called "war on Christianity." Maybe then you might begin practicing some actual tolerance of your own.

fire... along the waterfront... I'll bring the matches.

News flash Bob, "Christian" is not a natural default setting in the U.S. or in the world. It is not incumbent on anyone to recognize your beliefs, especially not public resources like stores and governments. In fact the latter must remain open and oriented only all, not just the largest hegemonic group. If you and other Christians want to wish each other happy easter and christmas then go ahead and do so, but don't expect me to recognize your beliefs because you feel like it is compulsory to being a citizen. You have every right to be a Christian, but I have every right to be an atheist, and I have the right to access my government and my community without your views being foisted upon me left and right --- or somehow being made to feel incomplete because I don't bend my views to fit yours.

Christianity has had about 1500 years of (rather disastrous) cultural and political dominance. To suggest that because your interpersonal beliefs aren't reflected back at you at every turn is a sign of intolerance and discrimination is ridiculous. The world isn't a mirror of you. I've always thought that the expectation that one's faith be everyone's compulsory faith is kind of indicative that one's faith is not very strong in the first place. The statement "You must have faith" cancels itself out.

I agree with the tenor of the above statement. You suffer no real persecution, and to think otherwise is comically absurd.

Thanks, Edward. To veer back on topic, here's one atheist who is furious when Buffalo's majestic places of worship are demolished, destroyed, or abandoned. If you go to Temple Beth Zion, on exhibit in the corridor is a reproduction of the front page of the newspaper from the day the old temple, designed by Edward Kent, burned down. It's horrifying. The abandonment of Transfiguration is horrifying. The church closures to come are horrifying.

I wasn't here when St. Joe's was demolished, but I'll bet that what was lacking was not the ability to diagnose and correct whatever was wrong with it. What was lacking was the will, the respect, the honor for it.

I can't think of a post that has made me sadder.

The remains of a consecrated church dumped like so many old tin cans.

Backspace, I share your intellectual reaction to this wanton destruction, and Marilyn and Bob, your experiences. But Bob, the bigger problem is that people don't respect each other-- respect for their religions would follow that.

"The Church" wanted St.Joseph's to go away so it could build profitable housing on the site. That seemed obvious, at the time - but the cathedral DID need extensive and expensive repairs, to be fair.

REMEMBER!-- c'mon, let''s skip the religious tone please...

This waterfront post is about waterfront landscape --artwork --all the white Italian marble that's stuck in shoreline guts of our waterfront ...and it needs a better home, perhaps up on the shoreline, in a art display.

Everyone's invited--We're going meet for cocoa, coffee, cider and beer on mid-day of Saturday September 30th there. We're going to hike and gather and talk and cheer some good ideas.

Okay-- I also grew up under the realm of St Joe's New Catherdral. I did my First Confession there, (so my first sins are buried in them stones) as well as my First Communiion. It's precious to me, but it's still some stuck marble on our waterfront now.

Some myopic, paretic fop of a construction genius stuck those rocks there, with the help of other greedy quick-artists from misguided councilmen to others-- it was a horrible designation--

-- and it's now our New Buffalo duty to redesignate them to proper place and perspective on land.

You have heard of "Jay McCarthy"-- he started the theory of "microparks" and we hope he can join us to discuss what rights we might gesture to redesignate these marvelous white marble blocks of art.

This is the first in community gatherers to hold "mircopark" idea days, gatherings and conversations and follow-up actions.

It's our waterfront. We need to act first, and tell our community servants what we want.

So join us on that September 30th mid-day at the site.

Backspace... I agree and as an atheist with strong beliefs about human community and it's relationship with the built environment I am also upset about the state of our historic worship spaces downtown.

I'm also kind of curious who thought it was appropriate to dump DPW waste (Father Baker Bridge) and other demolition debris (this cathedral) on the lakeshore? Does that have to do with NFTA ownership of waterfront property? Was this once considered good practice or something? Or is it just another Buffalo-unique example of terrible thinking?

Hi Edward Street, Agreed in your disgust--The dumping of the Father Baker Bridge is atrocious. It's blaspheomous in the best of utter senses. And yet it's there-- al coralled along the waterfront shorelione, hovering over the gorgeous white marble. Unimaginable disgrace-- the DEC, the EPA,and the Army Corp of Engineers would almopst shoot a person for a sqaundered candy wrapper, but how the hell did they let this happen? It HAD to be bad politics. But it's a disgrace and a hige case of direspect for waterfront rulings.

It was okay to 'dump' these things because the area was NOT "the shore" - it was Lake Erie. These acres of NFTA land is made of FILL.; it is artificial - the 'junk' IS the shore, now. Without this debris & the debris from thousands of demolished buildings and construction sites, this spot would be water.

This area = the remains of the canal district, the Ellicott neighborhood, and many other projects which needed disposal of bricks, stone and dirt. I wish those who dig deep foundations much luck.

Humboldt Parkway is now the Erie Basin Marina, too.

Bob, remind us to send greetings of "l'shanah tovah tikatev v'taihatem!" next weekend. Since you're a man of upstanding character, I fully expect that you'll be as tolerant as you think others should be of "Merry Christmas!" greetings.

On topic: The remnants of the Larkin Building are buried underneath the Ohio basin playground. Tens and thousands of bricks and other masonry details specced by Frank Lloyd Wright himself.

Dan - Where is the Ohio Basin Playground? I am new to the area... is that near Ohio street?

I remember hearing about the Fr Baker bridge on WBEN traffic reports as a child, but didn't know that it was torn down. When did that happen?

I agree Bob... when you are painfully out of style, you don't try all the styles in between to get to what's in. You pretty much have to make the leap.

This is going out to all the Buffalonians sporting the latest in camo jackets, carrot jeans and those wonderful feathered hair cuts. Roar! Your gorgeous!

Bob...nice job of hijacking this thread, taking it from a waterfront discussion to a religious debate.

Bob, judging by the number of comments you have posted on this one article, I assume you'll keep reading what people write so this is for you:

You're an idiot. You are one angry, incoherent mess.

Thank the gods for the feminists! And the liberals.

I don't respect your religion, myself, though I fully respect your right to practice and believe what your lights guide you to. I think the Christians (and the Jews and Arabs) are out to lunch in their conception of this reality, personally. But that doesn't mean that you and I cannot coexist peacefully. I think you haven't got a clue about the value and direction of life. But what the hell does that have to do with the waterfront? Do you think you have convinced anyone to join your crusade? If you wish to discuss religion, perhaps you should post a thesis and let others comment on it.

Ummm........to get back to the structure, I remember the demolition well (it seems like yesterday - I'm getting old) and I do remember that the solidity of the structure presented a challenge to it's demolition. But I also remember that the italian marble cladding was in very bad shape, unable to stand up to the extremes of WNY weather. I felt that the building was unremarkable: it suggested to me that it was meant to enclose the largest amount of space (it was huge) for the least amount of money. I was happy to see St. Joseph's old cathedral return to it's original status. It was said that the bishop responsible for the new structure suffered from a serious ediface complex. Finally, I recall it being said that the original design by an architect from Italy did not provide for a heating system !!!

Ummm........to get back to the structure, I remember the demolition well (it seems like yesterday - I'm getting old) and I do remember that the solidity of the structure presented a challenge to it's demolition. But I also remember that the italian marble cladding was in very bad shape, unable to stand up to the extremes of WNY weather. I felt that the building was unremarkable: it suggested to me that it was meant to enclose the largest amount of space (it was huge) for the least amount of money. I was happy to see St. Joseph's old cathedral return to it's original status. It was said that the bishop responsible for the new structure suffered from a serious ediface complex. Finally, I recall it being said that the original design by an architect from Italy did not provide for a heating system !!!

Sorry to waste space with a double post. My computer was giving me trouble........Time for a new computer, I guess.