Buffalo Rising Online

please please please dont let this plan get ruined somehow....this will be amazing

thats pretty neat. i approve

very communist bloc/cubist/UB North student housing circa '72. How about some steel and glass? Please? And a high rise, not mid-rise. Please??

im pretty sure square gray blocks with no windows or doors arent exactly what they are going to build. Im gonna assume it was for the sake of showing a layout...although it would have been nice to get a high rise...is till believe that anythng is better than nothing when it comes to downtown

i didnt think we could posibly have 3 positive comments in a row on this site

Of course not Andrew. Everyone against the Elmwood condo design that's "dull and boring" (their words) will also be against this too. Just watch.

I like it.

mid rise..? hehe

What??? No Sect 8 fed subsidized housing here. How discriminatory!

Italyan, this is not the same site adjacent to shanghai reds, this is at the north end of waterfront village. this site was intended for residential only. as far as i know the city has not yet designated a developer for the site you are referring to. it's nice to see something contemporary, i think it's a great addition to the neighborhood.

out of this world idea! This will add to the detail and definitely help strengthen the interests of our waterfront community. It's a relaxed but progressively vibrant community and i can't wait to see full renderings with this project and the twin Water front tower in place. 8 story's is just enough for people to say "what is that over there".

okay, so Waterfront Village is almost full, right? Where is the next wave of waterfront development going to occur? And how about a little bit more urban and mixed use. any planning going on???

I do like the mid rise. nice scale but the rendering makes it look like dryvit and a bit too orange.

Looks like a promising infill development. There is a high rise down there - the Pasquale - and if built the second tower by Ellicott on the adjacent parcel. It would be nice if the park down there was open to the public, however why go to that park if you live near Delaware or one of our other Olmsted parks? It seems more suitable for those residents. I think if development continues to prove successful in the Waterfront Village, then we will see more of a housing component mixed in to the Canal Side development. That would be great and very desirable to many.

The next wave of waterfront development will happen between the Niagara Expressway and Niagara Street which will be able to stretch all the way to the PeaceBridge.

This stretch of Niagara Street will eventually (long term) integrate itself to the parallel streets of Grant, Richmond, Elmwood and Delaware.

There are great things happening in the city and in the west village, so crossing the expressway is going to be the next step

certainly will be something different down there. I am hoping that the town homes are really unique. Those are what make or break the aesthetic of the place. The towers are always going to be fun to look at. I also like the idea that this is going to be LEED, bout damn time we start to develop responsibly.

GREAT! Now can we get rid of that pool of stagnate water.. er fountain... and build a nice new boat slip. I'm sure the residents would enjoy it.

GREAT! Now can we get rid of that pool of stagnate water.. er fountain... and build a nice new boat slip. I'm sure the residents would enjoy it.

Looks cool.

Blondie, considering construction costs today it is very difficult to build anything under 200k that isn't a 900sqft cape cod. Unfortunately as people move into these places maybe some older 100-200k homes come online for college grads but to expect to buy a newly built home for 150K and get anything nice looking is pretty tough.

how about at roswell, or buffalo general, or any successful restraurant owner or a car dealer.....making enough money to afford a 275k place isnt unheard of

truestar- doctors and architects. See story. :)

Huh?

Isn't the Observation deck at the Erie Basin Marina made of concrete?

Truestar, are you high? What in the heck are you talking about? There isn't any subsidy for this project. There also isn't any deteriorating housing in the Waterfront Village. It is a pretty upper middle class and upper class enclave.

Middle class jobs are harder to find and getting the squeeze to be sure but that has nothing at all to do with this project. People are going to move into these units from the suburbs. They have already said so. The building adds tro the tax base. That is positive for all city residents.

I don't like the design of the mid-rise but I am not going to buy one. Personally I think the building's modern bent is cool but the design comes up short. There aren't enough windows and the color scheme is off but that is just my opinion.

The other question is, will these projects happen without tax breaks? If not, then ultimately the tax break has succeeded. The tax credits and abatements are used to create new jobs/housing/buildings, and its rare that anything is built without a tax break. If you were a developer would you build without incentives? Capping the property taxes on a new building for 10 years is perfectly acceptible if it brings wealth into the city. The incentives don't mean you're loosing any revenue, it provides for revenue through ancillary sources (job creation, eventual tax raises, money spent at local businesses)

WHERE IS ERIK OAK WHEN YOU NEED HIM??

This building does not mesh with the urban fabric already down there, seriously.....we have nice brick new england style brown stones and now this?!!!

this building will stick out like a sore thumb and complete ruin any continuity down there.....

Also, the existing residents who pay taxes better buckle up for a long ride down in prices on their condos and townhomes.

People, this is not rocket science......you will now have 4 new developements with assessments no greater than 27k.

Makes it a little difficult to sell a 500k unit built in 1983 with 12k/year in taxes.....

Inititially their will be a glut of condos and prices will drastically decrease.

great...so a better idea to most of you is to not give any tax breaks, to build nothing and to make sure that everything that is built is exactly like everthing else around it? so that nothing changes? gimmie a break

Why would these places be assessed at 27k? The fact that there are tax breaks attached to them doesn't affect the assessment of their value.

Tax abatements breed development, that's their purpose. Here in Philly condos are advertised by the number of years left in their tax abatement. Don't assume waterfront development will happen without incentives, this isn't Manhattan despite how the cool-aid may taste.

I was not saying that we should or should not build.

I was merely making a point that there are a lot of condos coming on the market with tax abatements, which makes it difficult to move existing properties.

That is why nothing has sold on the waterfront.

someone has to lose out in this and it is going to be the existing homeowners. If you waited to buy, you will be rewarded with brand new construction and minimal taxes. Typical Buffalo.

The fact is that In order to receive the abatement, your assessment must be real low.

SnarkFest,

wealthy people become wealthy because they are frugal and watch their money. Therfore, they would love a tax break, who wouldn't.

Prices will slide on the waterfront.

too many properties coming on the market all at once. nothing sells during the winter.

Too man properties with tax abatement mixed in with those that have to pay.

In reference to the comments regarding the appearance of the structure, it very much is a bauhaus international inspired building as a reflection of the building material selected for the project. Unfortunately due to the limitations of the rendering program used for this model the metallic nature quality and richness of the product was not necessarily accurately represented. Below is a link to the Trespa website for those who are interested in seeing the material implemented on finished buildings. ( Specifically the Harper College Project done by HOK ) This specific material was selected for it's green design ability and versatility. As well as it's durability to withstand the harsh Buffalo waterfront winters.

http://www.trespa.com/na/topnavpages/projects_ideas/ext_collections/default.aspx?Page=8&Collection

Also the townhouses will be unique design opportunities in and of themselves. As of yet their exact aesthetic nature has not been determined.

In reference to the comments regarding the appearance of the structure, it very much is a bauhaus international inspired building as a reflection of the building material selected for the project. Unfortunately due to the limitations of the rendering program used for this model the metallic nature quality and richness of the product was not necessarily accurately represented. Below is a link to the Trespa website for those who are interested in seeing the material implemented on finished buildings. ( Specifically the Harper College Project done by HOK ) This specific material was selected for it's green design ability and versatility. As well as it's durability to withstand the harsh Buffalo waterfront winters.

http://www.trespa.com/na/topnavpages/projects_ideas/ext_collections/default.aspx?Page=8&Collection

Also the townhouses will be unique design opportunities in and of themselves. As of yet their exact aesthetic nature has not been determined.

Sorry for the double post, the site failed during first attempt and hitting re-load send the information again. sorry !

Colin-

The Waterfront Place development (Ellicott Development) will receive a 10 year Real Property Tax Exemption from city/school and county property taxes. Initial real property taxes will be based on the land assessment for the units, which will be significantly less than full value. This exemption runs with the property.

I remember being told that the assessments that Gaustad refers to are $27,500 per unit for the Pasquale. That's a huge savings over existing developments.

The exemption is as follows:

100% exemption for the first 7 years 75% in the 8th year 50% in the 9th year 25% in the 10th year Full assessment in the 11th year.

Hopefully that helps.

JoeS,

thanks for the info.....gonna be a tough sell for existing homeowners once the new builds come on the market.

JoeS,

Thanks for that.

I still don't get gaustad's point, though. Nobody will be under the impression that the 27k assessment is "real." It isn't as if a bunch of cheap housing suddenly popped up in the midst of fancy condos. And though it might seem hard to sell a condo when the place next door has a tax abatement attached, wouldn't that abatement end up being reflected in the sale price? All else equal, a place with lower taxes will get more offers and sell for a higher price, right?

Colin, you have a point, but real estate terms....you need to ask yourself - if you would buy a conod assessed for 250k next door to one assessed for 27k.

Would you use your own money for this?

If I had the money (big if), and if I was looking for a condo, yeah I would. Of course, I'd try to get one of the low tax places first. But failing that, I'd have no problem buying next door. That low assessment isn't real -- having lawyers and doctors living next door in fancy condos isn't going to lower my property values, no matter how they temporarily finesse the assessment.

Colin-

The assessment is absolutely real, since that number is what the actual taxes are based upon. There is no finessing going on.

To illustrate: last summer I had a California buyer looking at waterfront condos here. The unit that interested her was in an existing building and was assessed at $500,000 with taxes of nearly $1000 per month. That's over 18 X the annual taxes of one of the new builds directly next door assessed at $27,500 for the first 7 years. The tax savings is real money that can be spent or invested.

Further, the exemption runs with the property. So, if you buy it next month and sell in 3 years to Gaustad, he picks up years 4, 5, 6 and 7 with 100% exemption.

Joe,

Sure, I get all that. But I think gaustad's point is that a condo assessed at 27k will be a drag on the value of neighboring units. But that low assessment, while it may be real in its tax implications, isn't actually a reflection of what anyone thinks the place is really worth. If I'm living next door to one of those 27k units, I might be envious of their tax bill, but I'm not thinking "there goes the neighborhood."

Colin-

You're right that a low tax assessment in this case is not a reflection of what the place is worth in theory. But the low tax bill has to cause neighboring values to at least pause since the consumer has a choice. If they choose the new (low tax assessment) development repeatedly, the demand is higher and naturally the price goes up. As the higher taxed properties are passed up by buyers, the sellers best defense is to lower the asking price to level the field.

I have to disagree with you about "there goes the neighborhood." If I'm living in a comparable building and I see a competitor offering something with an advantage that I cannot compete with (unlike a new kitchen or bath), I'm not feeling too good about my chances to sell for top dollar.

BTW- The Rochester Democrat and Chronicle has a cool link that allows you to translate any dollar amount into actual taxes for almost every city, town and village in New York State. It even includes school districts.

Here it is: http://php.democratandchronicle.com/RocDocs/taxrates2007/