Buffalo Rising Online

Im not infavor of more parkland or the 300 car garage. Let them use the light rail and a parknride facility elsewhere....which would encourage them to stop off at more places before they return to their car.

I WANT THE FULL 1000 FOOT ERIE CANAL WHARF RECONSTRUCTED!

I think that the Great Lakes Museum is going to make a great addition to which I hope that the Zoo and the Botanical Gardens join in with the Historical and Science Museum on its creation...especially if there are plans for an aquarium with Great Lakes species.

Maybe with the Great Lakes Museum we can encourage the Niagara Falls Aerospace Museum (which is being evicted by the Senecas) to relocate and join our Air and Naval Museum.

Maybe with the Great Lakes Museum we can encourage the A-K to build a brand new museum on the waterfront instead of expanding further underground at their present location....which I think is a real loser of an idea. I think it would be awesome to have a new modern museum for their modern and contemporary arts and devoting their current Elmwood Ave Site for Pre-War art.

I also think that if they demolish the Aud then they should consider rewatering more of the Erie Canal Western Terminus deeper into the city and putting back the Liberty Pole. Though I would like to see the aud be converted to an office building like the old Post Office (ECC) and the Ellicott Square.

The Erie Canal Wharf District MUST find a way to integrate itself all the way to the DL&W concourse. Right now the DL&W stands apart from downtown...which acts as a major barrier between the Buffalo River and downtown Buffalo....rebuilding the 1000 foot wharf requires a complete rethink of the DL&W....and a complete rethink of Ojibwa harbor development.......perhaps by intergrating Ojibwa into Trenton and the other streets west of Niagara Street.

Lastly, Bass Pro and HealthNow and the proposed 40 story City Center are all at the beginning of Niagara Street...and Buffalo/Buffalonians would be WISE to completely rethink Niagara Street from ghetto village to CORPORATE GATEWAY. Niagara Street and the Niagara Expressway should be downgraded to a parkway within downtown and lined with corporate ofice buildings with river views.....such a rethink would completely change the west village, the westside and black rock...to a similar level of stability and demand as Delaware, Elmwood and Richmond.

Come one Buffalo....and Canal Development Corp...the 1000 foot wharf needs a complete rethink of alot more than just Bass Pro and Buffalo needs more than two streets (Elmwood and Delaware) stable enough for residential and business development.

PS and can we get rid of those low income towers and put up something fitting of a 1000 foot wharf instead of municipal ghetto apartments....

chris69, you don't want any of those poor or elderly people getting in the way of you stupid Canal Warf theme park?!

Good new for the waterfront. Lets see what really happens though and how long it takes [ lets hope the law suits don't start]. I do agree with Chris, the 60's high rise needs to come down now.

Mixed is the way to go, keeps the area alive at all hours, a new convention center should be the next anchor.

I pleading some ignorance here about what local preservationist want, but I like the fact that it's right on the water. In my mind, it's exactly where it should be. Every old photo I've seen of the waterfront, all the mills and such were right on the banks of the water. Plus, it will give recreational boaters somewhere to go, something to look at, etc... Hopefully some lame lawsuits will not get in the way (and delay the project even further). Good news for downtown Buffalo.

Perry - I think they want historically accurate vacant foundations.

I like the rendering. This is so much more practical than the Aud site for BassPro.

I used to live in the West Village, and I agree it needs help, but if you make this any part of a "package deal" you might as well just kill the project.

I think that's exactly the type of thinking that's been inhibiting development in the city over the years. Everybody wants a piece, and if they don't get it, nobody gets anything.

why does talk of "anchor tenants", "plans for canal side retail", "parking"/"parking"/parking", and "Benderson Development" make me queasy? Where is the park space, why are we paying a store $25 Mil to open up there, and putting parking garage right there is a killer. Never thought of myself as anti-growth but are we so bound to our commercial culture as to blindly sign off on anything involving "retail"? Also, nothing will work as long as the Skyway is still up there; is this coming down w/ the Aud?

I think having Bass Pro as the primary retail tenant will greatly help with luring other retail tenants to his area. It is a great fit for an area that has a large hunting/fishing/outdoors community. It will be a success for many years to come. To those who are opposed to it, give it a chance.

As far as the location goes, we don't need more green space. It is adjacent to the servicemans park and erie basin marina which provide plenty of park-like space already.

It sounds as if most of us aren't Bass Pro shoppers.....I don't think that matters.....we all want SOMETHING done with our waterfront. We all want to see development.....businesses and jobs. We need to look at this as a begining, more development will follow or should follow.

It' now our duty to stay on top of Higgins, Brown, Spitzer, ect.....backs....to make sure the ball keeps rolling. What about the skyway.....what about the DL&W.....what about this....what about that.

Bass Pro better be just a piece of the puzzle...because by itself....it will fail. If teamed up with a great lakes meuseum or a bicycle meusuem and other small retailers and such, then it will be a huge success.

If all we do is dig up our old canal slip....and not make further structual improvements, then our waterfront will fail. If we take down the skyway, if we put in new roads and pedestrian access then our waterfront will suceed.

THIS IS JUST A PIECE OF THE PUZZLE.

Milaukee went through this same process.....they started there waterfront with public money.....they tore down there own skyway that blocked there waterfront......what followed was over $250 million worth of private develpment. FACT!

If it can happen in Milaukee......it can work in Buffalo. This is just a begining.

I like the design, it seems to be very appropriate for the area. I'm all for critical mass and prefer to have the area built out instead of green space right there. I know the skyway is a big concern for a lot of people, but it is still very functional and does offer some dramatic and unique views of the city and lake that you can't get from the ground or a tunnel, obviously. I would prefer money get spent on constructing something new that we don't have yet as opposed to making something existing better. Beautify the skyway and make it a focal point. You could suspend a "herd" of large buffaloes underneath it stampeding into the city as a public art project. Convert the space between some of the pillars into pocket parks and you can still have greenspace down there. Lastly, my pipedream would be to convert/reuse the Aud site for an indoor water park, hotel, night club, other family entertainment venue to create another destination site that adds to the area.

well now they can concentrate on extending the canal into the old aud site.(they must do this).more dramatic and more serious.

I've sat through many enviro impact studies.....they take a LONG LONG time for any project.

But I would hope the state could help fast track this! Since they have so much invested in this project.

WZA,

Look Here: http://www.nylovesbiz.com/pdf/erie/Final_Master_Plan_Report.pdf

And Here: http://www.wgrz.com/news/downloads/waterfrontsketches1.pdf

I was in the Bass Pro in Fr. Lauderdale and it is a pretty amazing place. It was located on an intercoastal waterway. If the Buffalo store uses the canal the way it is depicted in the renderings it will be an awesome place to visit. Although it doesn't necessarily cater to the majority living down town it will definitely draw sportmen in from around the area. I am actually amazed that this went through. Buffalofalling--I don't think it is fair to compare this to the peace bridge since it is a state and private investment project which does not come with the same red tape of an international border crossing. Chris69--are your for real about the parking garage? Do you not see how "forcing" people to use the train DOESNT WORK (IE MAIN ST). THE PARKING RAMP IS COMPLETELY NECESSARY. I am actually pleased with this option. Now we will have BassPro AND the Aud site ready for development. One negative is the loss of business to Gander Mountain the Youngman Plaza. Otherwise, I think we should be excited about this. When folks come back for the NCAA tournament in 2010 there may actually be more things to do on the waterfront.

I actually agree with williamzamkaallstars for once, at least on the parking issue.

To those who sarcastically like to say "I would never go in there, it's a glorified bait shop", go to their website. They also sell clothing(mens & ladies) & footwear along with camping and other outdoor related items. I assume you will be able to get most, if not all of these same products at the store opening here.

If you still want to bury your head in the sands and say this is a terrible idea, get the pitchforks, torches, tar & feathers and give Tim Tielman a call.

WZA...I have those same concerns, along with the skyway painting which seems to occur every few years.

Removal of it after buildings are constructed underneath would be an interesting challenge.

Hoo....(I'm saving the -ray for after the environmental study completion)... About friggen time, love the drawings and the new location on the water front. Minus a little bit of green space for a huge draw like this is amazing... if this goes through its goiing to be a huge HUGE CATALYST for future development that won't require as much public financing. I like the comments about the outdoorsey nature of the area.... we've got some of the highest concentrations of outdoor sportsmen in the nation and the fact that you can either drive up to the store... take that lame ass train... or stop by while your boating is truly unique. Its that one word unique that makes retail developments and changes personas.

Parking garge... ehh. gotta have it, better 300 space parking garage then 1,000 spaces of surface lot they wanted with the previous plan on the old aud site. Demolish the aud... theres a thousand other buildings in our area that deserve saving before that block! It can be put to mucccchhhh better use!

Trains practically useless... ppl come park, walk around take in a muesum, hitt up a sabres game.... y hell u could even walk to the casino down the road.

.. finally some HOPEFULL arena side development!!!!!

Sky way has to go! No if's and or but's about it.

The most cost effective time to do it.....is now. Once development begins the cost to remove this pile of sh!t will go through the roof.

I would wager a bet......when the skyway comes down.....Tim Tielman will file a lawsuit to stop it..................any takers on the bet?

As for the parking garages........i believe a good quality architect can discretly incorporate them into the development plans....behind or underneath a hotel.....wedge under the thruway.....

i've seen one in denver, co.......the outer skin resembled the side of a mountain.....it was actually beautiful.......and didn't seem as if it would add tremendously to the cost.

I believe the whole plan calls for at least 3 garages through-out the project, federal funding is already in place for 1 of them.

Honestly, why are people complaining about parking garages? Would you rather have surface lots?

Aside from that, I was listening to the WGRZ stream of the announcement and as soon as someone asked Higgins about removing the skyway the stream died. He was saying something about getting funding right as it went out. So who knows, maybe it's further along than some of us would know.

Also the location of the central wharf is not under the sky way. Look at the links I posted above and you can see the outlines of the skyway compared to where these buildings are going.

never mind, just look at the new pictures they posted in the article. :p

I agree with Ken. If Tim Tielman will try his hardest to tank this project or any progress for that matter utilizing twisted logic.

Glad to see they used the building design to shield the public plaza from the prevailing lake winds. Make the whole project more viable for the winter months

We can have a park (I LOVE PARKS)

or we can build a waterfront that attracts people.....creates jobs....brings in revenue.

I'm not traveling the 15 minutes from my house to visit a park. Plus, incase you haven't noticed.....the waterfront is many, many miles long.....we will have many opportunites to create more parks and more open green space.........

and besides........as i look out of my downtown office....i see a whole lot of current "green space" along the water......and NO people, even in the summer.

Parks are needed and are very important.....so is a commercial spot such as canal side.

again, just one piece of the puzzle.

one more idea for the waterfront.

two large statue's of Higgins and Quinn.

to thank them for working so hard.

I can't wait to be walking to the store and getting pooped on by birds from the skyway as well as falling slush and snow being pushed over the sides of the skyway from above!!

That's the first thing I thought of, "the thing looks great, but the skyway will ruin it."

Tielman is a pompous self-annointed asshat. With 20 miles of unused waterfront why is this particular spot so important. And Robin have you been to the waterfront? go off furnham blvd to the small boat harbor. there are miles of parks and bike paths that have recently been put in place just south of downtown. Not to mention the Nature preserve on the other side. Beside, historical renerings of this area show buildings rigth to the waters edge, not parks or plaza's.

I live on the waterfront. You should see how beautiful it is here, and how neglected and overlooked it is. It is like a ghost-town in downtown in the evenings and on week-ends. Now, with the Bass Pro deal, there is actually something positive that is going to encourage people to come downtown besides the Sabres.

I LOVE it!

I personally don't care that they will have to tear the old aud down. It was too much of an antiquated building to work with. Not much value in my opinion in keeping a large, uninteresting building that no one wants to work with. A lot of criticism comes around the public dollars used for this project. To be honest, a lot of these dollars were earmarked for development anyway. Some of the come from the abandoned Adelphia project that never happened. It takes money to bring in money. Simple fact. And Bass Pro is just the starting point.....I'm hoping more retailers follow and are able to open nearby. All in all, I'm very optimistic to hear that the deal is signed!! Can't wait for this project to start!!

vavoom is a smart man.

and i like his use of the work asshat. tim tielman is an asshat!

I will not sleep until I see this project personally go up in flames. For that matter, I will not sleep until all progress halts in Buffalo. In fact, I will not stop until every business in the City of Buffalo is closed, boarded up, and condemned at which point I will use to stop it from being razed. We need to take a deep breath; this whole affair has just been rushed since day one back in 1992.

Tim: As a city of Buffalo homeowner, Shove it!

yeah the skyway is going to be a huge issue for anyone using the space under it. Image the weight and sound of snow crashing onto the roofs of these buildings. The piers do look cool but the place is quite noisy all day long.

As for the AUD coming down it still seems like a mistake. There is a large empty parking lot next to the AUD that could be developed, the Webster block is still empty, the Donovan building is coming down to be an empty lot, and now the AUD. There are no firm plans for any of these sites except to put a tag on them for future development. That means from the HSBC tower all the way to the HSBC arena and the Erie Canal terminus there is going to be NOTHING but parking lots and Highways, Look at a map and if we think the skyway is an issue now, its going to be evern more pervasive without the AUD. We are going to see and hear and smell even more of the skyway and 190 once the AUD is no longer shielding us.

Look at the aerial and imagine no AUD and what you will see instead: http://tinyurl.com/3ydfpb

Why don't we worry about using that 10 million to the get something built and developed on the other THREE blocks of the emptiness before we create another one. That whole area is going to be the ugliest place in downtown once the full range of highways are exposed. I am not against the overall demolition of the building, but it seems like it will do the area more harm then good right now.

Robin...there is PLENTY of park space at the adjacent veterans memorial park along with the Erie Basin Marina. In addition to this, there is public greenspace up and down the lake and river.

I think the store design is pretty awsome. It is a mix of old and new and provides access to the waterfront. As for the parking ramps, I totally agree, that the designs should offer first and possibly second floor activity such as more shops, restaurants, etc. As someone who works downtown and does NOT Drive, I, like many others have no need for parking. Taking a bus, train or walk will get me to the waterfront just fine. Bring in more mix of activilty. As for Tim Tielman's complaint...Are you for real? We have enough park like areas on the entire waterfront. WE WANT A MIX OF ACTIVITY ON THE DOWNTOWN WATERFRONT! If you don't like BUSY Areas (in a city) then focus on a more quiet area such as Grand Island or Tonawandas waterfront.

Lift bridges are much more of a historically accurate and much cooler looking than the skyway and they can be used by everyone and not jsut those privlidged enough to own a car.

As for the commuters into downtown, yes they should be forced on grade, with slower speeds. There is nothing justifiable about allowing them to zip through downtown at 60 mph and never have to stop. When you slow people down they notice things, businesses, streets, residences. They are more prone to use them along the way. Highways created and continue to promote sprawl, that 20 minute commute from downtown instead of being to Cheektowage and Kenmore now reaches to Amherst, Hamburg, Orchard Park. By increasing peoples commute times you actually encourage them to live closer to the city center, capitalize on existing infrastructure and keep the region more compact and stable in the end. That is why in Europe Highways are diverted around their downtowns into beltways, nowhere do you see them cut into and through of the center city. If you want a strong downtown you need to keep the population close to it, highways do not do that.

The Skyway needs to GO if we ever want to create a strong and desirable downtown again.

Any information as to what will be on the first two floors of the parking garage in the middle of the project? I think this is very much a decider as to whether this is a decent or bad project.

Is everyone here so uncritical? So easily fooled by a flashy rendering?

This plan has unravelled a community consensus vision for the Canal District of recreating a fine-grained, mixed-use neighborhood similar to the historic district that existed there. This plan is nothing more than a big box store attached to a massive parking ramp. It's terrible! It's nothing more than a fake historic strip plaza with an anchor tenant! How can all of you be fooled?

I've been sayng for years that Buffalo should have an aquarium at the waterfront.

I like the progress they're making so far. This along with the Main Street Bridge to the outer harbor should make the waterfront a very exciting place in the next several years.

Thank you Chrish, I didn't want to be the first to say it and get hit in the eye by the collective orgasm of people who criticized this type of project as the wrong one for years.

The rendering is a bit misleading because of the whole missing Skyway issue (aside from the supports). That being said, there's going to have to be some way of directing traffic to and from the southtowns if the Skyway is knocked down. I live in Hamburg and support the removal of the roadway but unfortunately, it is a heavily used route and the current set of grade-level roads that exist could never support all of the traffic on a daily basis. Take a look at the streets of South Buffalo when the Skyway gets closed due to an accident or inclement weather. It's total gridlock. Ideally, the Southtowns Connector that was proposed to go along the railroad tracks inland from the lake would be the best option.

Whatever your opinion of suburban living is, a lot of people live in the Southtowns and use the current network of roads to make their daily commutes. Ending Route 5 at Tifft Street and requiring all motorists to merge onto Tifft and Ohio Streets would be insane. I'd like to see Congressman Higgins actively push to get the entire highway along the lakeshore removed, but at the same time, lobby for a viable alternative to support the current traffic.

chrish...Does every square foot of the inner harbor development area have to be mixed use? To one side of the parcel you have commercial(HSBC, Buffalo News & the HSBC Atrium), another edge has residential(Marine Dr. Apts.) and other parts of the parcels contain parks(Naval Park & the Memorials Park). You also have the Arena and now what is being presented today. In addition there are 3 huge parcels(The Aud, Donovan Bldg. and parking lot across from the arena) still to be developed.

I really don't understand why "each and every bldg." has to be a combination of retail, office, tourist, etc..

So Chrish , what do you want? Only small botique retailers? You know like main place mall. Just small shops , which for the lack of a major anchor fadded into oblivion one by one, leaving a desolate shoping arcade.

The ECHDC has shot itself in the foot by bringing the Canal District redevelopmetn project back to square one. If they want to go through with this