Buffalo Rising Online

Great to hear.

I concur, Goldman's book is a fascinating read. It brings everything into perspective and I have even more of a love for our city than I did before, if that's possible ;-)

BRO: Thanks for finally writing an objective report about this project. The articles and responses and petition drive up to this point have been unhelpful and sometimes silly. At least now we can read about the debate without the rancor and overblown arguments we've seen before.

I still respectfully (and completely) disagree with BRO's well known position on this project but I'm glad to see it covered in a somewhat more objective and restrained voice.

BRO: Thanks for finally writing an objective report about this project. The articles and responses and petition drive up to this point have been unhelpful. At least now we can read about the debate without the rancor and overblown arguments we've seen before.

I still respectfully (and completely) disagree with BRO's well known position on this project but I'm glad to see it covered in a somewhat more objective and restrained voice.

Is Tim Tielman an architect? Who is he to say "less glass". Why? I like all the glass. Someone should clue Mr. Tielmen into the fact that modern architecture can be beautiful too! And yes it is a conflict of interest for John Laping to be a voice at this discussion. He's one of THEM!!!

The most sought after and expensive condominiums in New York City are first-class modern glass structures that are located in close proximity to lowrise historic districts (brick and masonry) such as Tribeca, Soho and Greenwich Village. If they're good enough for NYC, they're good enough on Buffalo. A pox on the old blue hairs and historic "absolutists" who would try to stop this building.

Good report. I also cannot believe that someone would say that this design should have less glass. If Tielman IS an architect then he must be a very bad architect.

Well this sounds more positive than the first meeting that I attended. After going to that I thought there would be no hope. This is a step forward. P.S. love the design. It is tall, modern, filled with glass and classy. This project needs to make a big statement; that Buffalo realizes that it is 2007.

Tim doesn't have to be an architect to express an opinion any than you do. The Preservation Board is on purpose not all architects, just as it is not all developers, not all representatives of historic districts, not all architectural historians, not all builders, etc.

Finally some good news about this project moving forward. While i am extremely opinionated about this project, I agree w/ EricOak's assessment on the objectivity of this report. Good job BRO.

Rubvgreta, I believe you are using the Richard Meyer buildings in the West Village as an example. They are located on the river at the foot of Charles St and are hated by the neighbors.

That being said, I still think they should put this structure up on Gates Circle. Millard Filmore Hospital existed there for years, I would think that would be more of an annoyance for the neighbors (traffic, ambulances, huge parking lots, etc). Millard Filmore is also an eyesore. I think a handsome designed structure like this would be a good thing...

Ron R- Delaware North has been downtown in Key Center for several years now.

How come the wealthy people we already have in the Park Lane are bad while the wealthy people who will theoretically fill this tower are good? One in the hand is worth two in the bush.

Sorry BuffedOut. You're right. My making fun of Tielman this morning was a bit childish. I just think that Tielman demonstrates over and over again that he has a narrow view when it comes to architecture.

I don't think that there should be a preservation board. There should only be a board that addresses the integrity of our built environment as it grows and changes. The board should be made up of architects/architectural historians, engineers and urban planners. I don't see why we need developers or preservation activists on the board at all.

Lots and lots of absolutely meaningless phrases.

I am so glad that our local Realtors have assumed their usual detached positions. No one who buys in, or around, the proposed project can lose!-- except prices do go down-- and for long stetches of time. The city as a whole can most certainly lose.

It's not a bad building; it's just nothing worthy of its location.

pgf--you said something interesting and new: it's not "worthy of its location." Thanks for putting words to what has irked me about all the huff and puff for this project. It's presumably going to be the signature building on an important part of our Olmsted designed parkways, the gateway to the Delaware district, a circle where we already have some really sour buildings. From the breathlessness about this project you'd think that Stern or Pei or Gehry were designing something striking and unforgettable for Gates circle---I would be open, possibly excited, about that. At least we'd be getting quality that matches our inheritance.

But we're getting a boilerplate building. If that's such a critical place for a new tower, why can't we expect more original and powerful design? Even if you want a glass condo there, we should be disappointed that we're not getting something really great.

PS--Tim Tielman has done so much for this city we should all be bowing low to him. He knows the architectural and social history, the context, the way neighborhoods work. If it were not for people like Tim Tielman we'd be looking at corporate boxes on Delaware Ave. where a row of our grandest mansions was close to coming down.

Jimminy Cricket's It is a building, one that is obviously more attractive than any other on the lot of Gates Ciricle. What has your panty's into a twizzy? If I were to live on the south end of Chapin, I might be upset. If I were to the east end of Laffayette, I might be upset. I would be eqqally upset, however, by Park Lane' presence (remember, that has only been there for a few years, compared to the houses there). Get a grip and look at the big picture! Gates Circle is ugly now.

I've invested heavily in Main Street in this stretch (between Utica and Lafayette). I'm bullish about Main...

I hope turns out that I'm wrong and you're right, but that part of Main St seems to me too close to high crime areas to expect a lot of new people or business to decide to move in around there as long as Buffalo as a whole continues to have fewer and fewer people and businesses every year. There just no signs I can see in objective statistical trends to indicate that Buffalo is having any change in what's been causing our decline in population and jobs. If a real economic turnaround ever happens, then in that case sure, midtown Main St might have a decent chance of revival. Not a sure thing but a reasonable chance. But with no apparent end in sight to current economic trends and the exodus to other states, why would anyone expect many people or business choose that Main St area when there's still so much inexpensive properties and buildings elsewhere around Buffalo (Elmwood, North Buff, downtown) as well as in many of our burbs?

I will not be here "for the "long haul," but God Bless You and Buffalo, Biniszkiewicz!

Ok, if Buffalo is to grow then yes at some point the pockets of currently-desirable parts of the city wouldn't be sufficient to meet demand. Everything is about supply and demand. Agree with you up to that point.

But it's been shrinking consistently since the late 50s, up to and including this past year.

What objective evidence is there to make anyone think that any time soon the number of people and jobs moving here will start outnumbering the people and jobs who leave?

What am I missing?

Now, that's not to say an upturn in the mid-town Main St area is impossible, but I wonder where would the demand come from?

For the recent upscale residential downtown and planned for the waterfront, my understanding is that some demand has come from the burbs and some from other parts of the city, and some from new people moving here form other places. But that's for upscale nice places that are set apart a bit from uhhh, shall we say unpleasant street-level ongoings. That won't be the case in the Main/Ferry area and the blocks each way.

I've no idea what would motivate new residents to want to move to that cluster of streets you mention (Oxford, Harvard, etc.) while there's so many other affordable convenient residential options in much safer areas. What's the draw that you envision?

Several of the newcomers and potential newcomers you mention are non-profit orgs, and that makes sense to me because they're very cost-conscious and don't need to worry much about drawing customers. Maybe that could be the focus for those blocks of Main - non-profit orgs and govt-subsidized housing such as Artspace. What types of private sector newcomers do you envision, and what's are the draws that make them choose to locate on that part of Main St instead of downtown, Elmwood/Delaware/Hertel, or the burbs? I do agree Delta Sonic was a great fit.

What if Frank Gehry wanted to build one of his incredible museums or buildings on this plot of land? Would it fit in? No, but it would be an amazing piece of architecture, just like this building, and not a single person in the city would object. The building doesn't need to fit in, if all the buildings looked the same its going look like Niagara falls Blvd. Would Tielman tell Gehry that he is using too much steel and glass? I don't think so....this project must go forward.

IMHO, FWIW (haha, maybe not much!), the community development corp homes east of Main don't sound like something that will have a big impact relative to all the very difficult factors east of Main.

But the demand you're seeing from commercial tenants who want to be on that part of Main sounds very positive, and I really hope it works for you!

I would suggest focusing on that aspect as analytically as possible, and not expect Buffalo in general to grow as part of your assumptions. Looks to me like our statistical rates of shrinking people and jobs shows no evidence of turnaround at this point.

But as you point out, during recent decades that we've been one of the fastest shrinking U.S. cities, certain pockets such as Elmwood can still increase in value even while most areas decline. Maybe mid-Main St can be a pocket like that (although in a very different way - i.e., nowhere near the potential for retail or restaurants as has Elmwood, and not depending on foot traffic with much disposable income - so your buildings would have different types of commercial uses, but hopefully a real upswing).

Please make it stop. My head hurts. 'Always the same people. I read some of the comments in your 08/07 print edition regarding the Gates Circle Condos - "This project must be stopped" "chain myself to the chicken shack..." "I've previously been engaged in stopping" "damage our historic neighborhood" " modern/contemporary building, totally unsuitable" "I am surprised that Buffalo Rising hasn't noticed this grave issue". Where do these people come from? If they had their way, only the buggy whip factories and rowboat shops down on the muddy edge of the Buffalo River would be allowed to reopen. Only horse drawn carriages would be allowed on Gates Circle. We'd all be living with oil ligts in our homes. Tear up the blacktop! Get rid of the utility lines! Instead of a nicely scaled development at the corner of Elmwood and Forest - we get to keep a bunch of crappy looking, partially vacant houses. Instead of working with a developer to create a waterfront area with a historic feeling (remember there's nothing there now) - if it's not done their way - it's not gonna be done. Instead - our fearless leaders have to conspire with Bass Pro - just to get anything done. By the way guys - when that land becomes worth something - Bass Pro will happily sell it for a higher and better use. So far no one else has stepped forward have they? Save the grain elevators they say! Why? What for? Pano - you made a decades-long commitment to Elmwood Avenue - so what we know better. (By the way - this writer loved the house that was demolished. Too bad - but it wasn't mine to preserve.) Some publications call these people preservationists. No way. No how. They're obstructionists with no good reason. The obstructionists' objection to the Gates Circle project says it all. They're trying to preserve a Disneyesque version of an English cottage in the forest. No way, no how can they rationalize that one in the name of preservation. If so - then the proposed Disneyesque version of the 19th Century Buffalo Harbor/Bass Pro development should have them cheering loud and hard! They're not. By the way guys - love 'em or hate 'em - the Disney concept has worked pretty darn well and made a lot of people very happy. So - to the obstructionists - find another cause. The City of Buffalo has suffered under your oversight for far too long.