Buffalo Rising Online

Who is going to be the first to sound the ATWATER HOUSE ALARM? Did you state that those forever-derelict properties at 301 and 305 West Utica are going to be torn down?

Seriously, GREAT PROJECT! As a concerned investor owning property in the next block, please call on me to argue at any meeting where you run into opposition of this. I'll be in Buffalo all summer and available pro bono.

Sal Superman3d@aol.com

I love how the immediate assumption is that anyone with an critical design comment is an armchair architects who has no idea what they are actually talking about.

Design is an iterative process, it needs vetting and critique, when that doesn't exist we are left with cost being the main factor and we all know what that gets us, strip plaza's and walmarts.

Remember it wasn't the public outcry against the Elmwood hotel or the critic of its design (which was fine) that killed it. It was deed restrictions of the site... More people by far were against the atwater house demolition, that happened, than the Elmwood hotel which didn't... Just shows what little influence people really have on any of these decision no matter how much people might talk or petition.

This project is fine.. decent enough design and good for the area. Sorry for only slightly related rant.

Undeground parking! Up to the street! Praise the Lord!

As long as this is a go before they demolish, bring it on. High end housing and more people with $$$ in the neighborhood.

Since someone brought up the Atwater house, how is that Pano's expansion coming along? ;)

Oh, and to play architect, a grand porch, or similar feature along the front would really integrate it in to the neighborhood and make it a more inviting structure.

Are these the first condos we have seen in a very long while? I applaud that.

But at these prices? I wish them good luck. Maybe they come with maid service.

RateMachine - yes - condos in that $$ range would fly.

flyguy: "Damn the architecture mindset can be so damn close minded and self centered it sickens me. There is alot of arrogance in architectural critics."

I couldn't agree more. The design (probably preliminary) looks just fine to me. Then again, beauty is in the eye of the beholder... or the guy or gal standing next to him or her... or the person across the street for that matter. Actually, in a case like this, maybe the person across the street should have input regarding project aesthetics. You wanna see a genuine architectural debauchery? Check out the mess at the old gas works site behind city hall. Yuck. As an innocent bystanding beholder, I sure wish I had some influence on the design of that hodge-podge pile of over indulgant... art. Yuh know, sometimes a room can look just great when simply painted white... or a slightly off-shade variant of such.

Sal: "Who is going to be the first to sound the ATWATER HOUSE ALARM?"

And just fer sheer chutzpah value, the houses to be demo'd for this project are nothing like what the Atwater house was to Elmwood... and I doubt the circumstances surrounding their demo will be anything similar to the Atwater fiasco tuh boot.

I have to agree with a few points: 1) I dont like to see existing homes demolished un-necessarily whether its the Atlwater House or homes for the "Anyone but men hospital on Bryant" which I think should be closed or this project. 2) For $500,000 this design is pretty much crap.....an eve makes it integrate into the neighborhood....how about clapboard, brick, stone, shingle, porches, cupolas, etc...these are all common to the neighborhood too!

This is Buffalo with the lowest cost homes and building costs in the nation and frankly it seems you can get a heck of alot more for your money on new construction just about anywhere else in the country because the builders he would rather pull their teeth without novacaine than offer some architectural amenities and asthetics.

Maybe some idiot will buy a $500,000 generic apartment when they could get multiple whole houses with character.....but I for one would not encourage anyone.

I welcome the new investment but not at the demolition of existing homes and not if its going to be a contemporary cardboard crapola.

I'd rather see new development built right up the street, BUT this is a side street with old victorians. I don't see much wrong with it's design. If this were going up on a main road such as Elmwood, I'd have a problem, but this is just a side street that is mainly residential. Who cares. Unless you live on this block, I don't see why anyone would really give a crap.

I agree that the design is a bit pedestrian, much like Frizlen's other recent projects, but that's fine. It's safe and unoffensive yet still relates to the context of the neighborhood. I guess that would make it a successfull design in the end. I would prefer something a little more innovative, but the market seems to suport this kind of design. I think it's a great project as are the Potomac condos. High-end development like this is awesome and I applaud the whole team, architect included.

For that amount of cash, you are better off purchasing a house in North Buffalo or the suburbs. There are many 2700 sq.ft. houses in the area available for under $350,000. I guess if a person is really set on living in a condo, this is a good choice; but I would have a difficult time moving to one of these condos when I could get a charming single family house with a yard, garage, basement, attic, that I own, for the same money or less.

To each his own.

I like it! I don't mind the design. Built up to the street, underground parking. Replacing a couple undesireable properties. Will increase the value of neighboring homes. Win, Win, Win!

This is a good looking project, great for the area but like just about everyone else here I think the price seems a bit absurd for this building. And I too would love to see more $100K-200K condo's in the city. Especially downtown!

Tough call here, but I do agree, for 500K I'll take a classic on Bidwell any day [and still have enough to get some reno's done]

If I got a dollar everytime someone said "Nobody will pay 500k for a condo in Buffalo", I'd be able to afford one by now! :)

The 350k Brantford condos sold quickly. 300-500k condos on the waterfront sell quickly. 300k condos on Delaware sell quickly. Other developers are proposing luxury condo towers. How much proof do people need? And that doesn't even count all those luxury apartments downtown going for 1500 per month.

I don't know what they do or how they got it, but there ARE people in Buffalo with money that want to live in condos and townhouses. That market has not been fully tapped yet. Bring it on!

Great project on Utica, BTW. :)

how about some infill development in the Eckerd plaza and that awful block on W. Utica between Delaware & Elmwood? That is an eyesoar, and I am sure once Rite Aid acquires Eckerd that will be slated to close for sure. that vast parking lot does not fit in at all, and it is a very good location for some new infill development. Anyone else think so?

RPreskop-

I don't see anyone here "protesting" the new design. And even though there are several people who feel that the architecture is rather lackluster, and I tend to agree, I think they all also recognize that this is a fantastic development, and do not feel the design is reason at all to hinder it, and would not want it to. Why in the world do we have to take everything as just good enough without question? Thats when your city will start to look like Atlanta, when any development is good development. Well, I don't want to live in Atlanta.

This is a great project, and I hope its a smashing success. But, architects and developers all read this site and these comments, and I'm sure their own thoughts and opinions are shaped by it. Perhaps then they will try something else or a different style in the future. Why can't we use this site as a form of public participation and help our communities strive for better?

zenfur - the condos on Potomac referred to are on the corner of Potomac Ave and Brantford Place AKA Brantford Place Townhomes...

For those interested in lower-priced condos in the Elmwood Village, I'm involved with trying to convert 291 Bryant Street to condos in the $60K range. The old Buffalo Rome building has 6 apartments and is under renovation recently.

For everyone who comments "I'm sick of the damn architecture critics," let me give you the definition from the American Heritage Dictionary: One who forms and expresses judgments of the merits, faults, value, or truth of a matter. Seems to me that you saying this project is great, and the architecture looks good is just as much a judgement of merit as those who feel the design could be better.

Besides, in other cities that actually have noteworthy development there are architectural critiques in their newspapers on a regular basis.

It looks like the condos in the rendering already have balconies...

Interesting that people should be chastised for offering a negative opinion given Buffalo's recent poor performance in the architecture realm lately. Perhaps the problem is that people have not been critical enough of what has been done to Buffalo over the past 5 decades. Buffalo should continually strive to have the best structures built in the city. There is no need for Buffalo to sat back and accept second rate on anything.

Interesting that you are labeled an arm chair architect if you dislike the building but not if your offer a positive opinion.

Sorry but I think all the so called armchair architectural critics really have a valid point. Maybe $350k to $500k apartments and townhomes will sell in Buffalo. Its been proven that they do sell and that there is a rather large untapped market in this price range and probably in the $500+ price range and the 200k to $350 price range too!

THE POINT THAT I THINK PEOPLE ARE SUPRISED WITH IS THE CRAPPY ARCHITECTURE AND ASTHETICS THAT PEOPLE ARE SPENDING AND RECEIVING IN THOSE PRICE RANGES. -No sunrooms, porches, pergolas or three season rooms -No landscaping, trellis, ivy, wisteria, elms, etc -No real design asthetic such as tudor, prairie, queen anne, etc -No diversity of material such as stone, brick, shingle, clapboard, etc -No palladian windows, french panes, stained glass, etc

for $500k in Buffalo I would expect more than home depot stucco panel sheets resembling FEMA housing than luxury apartments.

If I had $200k, $300k, $00k or $500k for a mortgage....i would probably still like to live in Buffalo but I most certainly would have the brains and the taste not to invest my money on something that resembles cheap gulf coast FEMA housing.

Maybe when people in Rochester say that Buffalonians are blue collar trash....sometimes I wonder if they are right but if this is the architectural asthetic Buffalonians will pay $300k-$500k then I would say the trash isnt limited to blue collar Buffalonians...white collar professionals and the monied classes dont know how to demand either.

for $300k to $500k....youd think they would have a bold modern metallic and glass, or a geometric prairy or art deco, or a graceful queen anne, federal, beaux arts....or a strong presence of french empire, richardsonian...yet Buffalonians seem to love home depot stucco panelling and the look of prefab fema housing.

Are 291 Bryant and the old Buffalo Rome house one and the same? Regardless, I'd like to hear more about condo conversion at this or these addresses as well as hearing about more condo conversions in the Elmwood-Allentown area in general. Such conversions will introduce a wide range of price options for buyers.

Ah, sitting in my comfy architect armshair.....just a second ....have to pour a glass of chardonnay..... This is a great idea. Hope the "stucco" really means stucco and not just poured cement. Also, what's up with the Gates Circle condos? Anything new there?

Chris69 - I think you're taking the building out of context. These are condos. People who buy condos are not looking for 3-season-rooms, stained glass or pergolas.

I also think you're putting a lot of assumption into your complaints without really looking at the project. You say there are no porches, yet every unit does have a balcony. You say there are "no wisteria"... how do you know that? Why are you assuming there will be no landscaping? The landscaping details would not be in an initial rendering like this.

I'm not saying your opinions are valid, just that you're placing your personal preference for a large standalone 1900 victorian house onto a modern condo apartment building. They are two different things. I mean is there anywhere in the country you can buy a 350k condo that includes a pergola??? Let's be realistic.

oops... meant to say "I'm not saying your opinions aren't valid". lol...

You must think I have never left Buffalo and I have no friends and relatives outside the Buffalo area.

Infact there are many many new developments outside the over-priced Seattle, SF, LA, Boston, NYC, DC area such as Charlotte, Atlanta, Florida, Dallas, Austin, etc that have all sorts of amenities with their condos such as sunrooms or three season rooms, porch or covered entrance and pergola or other in either the rear or the roof. Actually its not uncommon for multiple condos/townhomes to have underground parking, hot tubs, pools, porches and make use of materials such as stone, brick and many architectural details even on units in the $100-$150-$200k range.

Twelve units? Great! I like the idea of a higher density project. Especially if it is built on vacant land or in place of dilapidated buildings ( I am only assuming this). The sqftage is more than enough for a large family or one starting up.

The b&w image rendering looks good, in my eye. better that the color drawing. I'm no architect, but it seems to blend in with the surrounding houses as well as something a little different, something new.

Flyguy,

Why do you twist the facts to make your point? Perhaps you do not believe your own argument?

The hotel was not killed by architectural critics. It was killed by deed restriction which are part of a contract that was signed by the owner of the property. No bank would lend money to construct a project that was rendered impossible by prior contracts. The people protesting the project were protesting for selfish reasons that had little to do with the architecture. I for one thought the hotel architecture was crummy but I was in favor of the project. So tell me, what project has been killed by architectural critics and leave the over simplified Rush Limbaugh debate tactics at the door.

I would guess that the first project to be killed by architecture critics will be the one that finally offers some innovative design and not "contextual" brick/stucco/clapboard neo-victorian.

I was mistaken, I thought the Brantford condos were designed by Frizlen, and I allways refer to them as bieng on Potomac because that's the street they face. Regardless, both awesome projects that deserve community support. And design is subjective and is only strengthened by critique and debate. The fact that we are even having the conversation is a good thing, no matter what our opinions of a particular design are.

Maybe I'm wrong, But I'm HIGHLY doubtful those other cities have modern 2700 sq ft luxury condos in a prime area of the city within walking distance to downtown for only $100k.

Price isn't just about stucco and brick. It's also about size and location.

yes price is effected by location, walking distance to downtown, size, etc.

However this gets back to the ignorant trash concept...in other cities such prime locations yield significant investments in exterior asthetics and design...whether its bold modern (metal and glass) or some version of traditional or period and lets not forget amenities.

These developers and architects are infact asking for top dollar based on location and size (Im guessing) while offering little more than FEMA housing for the exterior which says that either people in Buffalo DO NOT recognize or demand value, DO NO recognize or demand quality or they are ignorant inbred trash that doesnt know better.

300 you are quite right

There are no new units under 150K in Chicago and any older units under that level will be highly undesirable. 650 SF studios in close in neighborhoods will be in the 200 k range at very minimum. 1 bedroom units start at 350.

100k does not buy much these days. A new single room occupance low income project recently completed in Chicago cost 125,000 per unit to build. That is for a bare minimum build out. No hot tubs here. No one is going to build for less than cost! That is one of the big problems in Buffalo. Because of low real estate prices and escalation margins are low

jstraubinger - To answer your question, yes, 291 Bryant Street is the old Buffalo Rome building. We're planning on one-bedroom units at $59,900 and two-bedroom units at $69,900.

I agree...that low prices in Buffalo mean low margins for new construction but thats actually a VERY good thing for our existing Buffalo housing stock...or atleast it should be a very good thing for our existing housing stock....whether its detached singles or duplexes or new apartments coming online at the Statler, Dulski or Buffalo City Center Tower....and even some of the potentials such as the LaFayette or the Liberty...or the Greystone....etc.

I can understand low margins in Buffalo...but it doesnt explain why people willing to pay $300k to $500k arent more interested in Buffalos existing housing stock.

Chris69 - One of the reasons people are willing to pay higher prices for condos in Buffalo is the tax structure. Property taxes for condos are substantially less than similarly-priced 1,2, or 3 familly homes in Buffalo. Couple the lower taxes with an increasingly-mobile society not interested in maintenance and you can see the demand for condo projects like these. If anyone out there likes modern designs, check out Chad Oppenheim's CUBE, a 15 story proposed condo for Miami.

Architect Chad Oppenheim's website is www.OPPENOFFICE.COM

I'm going to correct myself here. From what I've learned over the past year, condos in brand new buildings are taxed higher in Buffalo. A purchaser is better off to buy in an older apartment building that has been converted and not built as a condo. This may be a reason that there are some many rentals downtown and not a lot of new condo buildings.