I am gald to see the project only stalled, not cancled, and it should make many people happy Savarino is willing to work with the community, I just hope it does not join the ranks of the Peace Bridge, Waterfront or Bass Pro...
I am gald to see the project only stalled, not cancled, and it should make many people happy Savarino is willing to work with the community, I just hope it does not join the ranks of the Peace Bridge, Waterfront or Bass Pro...
I personally thought the height was not the problem just the odd corner which did a poor job mimicking a turrett-like design. This probably will delay the project. I would have just built it the way it was. The high rise apartments on Elmwood and Utica gives that stretch some anchor and presence and I thought this would do the same for the corner of Forest kind of anchoring the area as well. Reducing the number of floors may put a different cost ratio on this project. Don't be surprised if it does go the way of the waterfront. Its a disappointing develoment as far as I'm concerned. The paranoia of the people on Granger is amazing. Who would rent a room in Buffalo to look into somebody's window? The new hotel on Millersport Hwy. in Amherst had the same problem and it got built just fine and nobody's complaining. I went to those hearings and the concerns were ridiculous. And the sunlight is just fine too. This is the city. Get some blinds! I hope this project hasn't been obstructed.
I had the pleasure of working with Mike Cammarano, of Savarino, on the Niagara Falls Memorial Medical Cardiac Center on 10th and Walnut and found him to be a very conscientious and professional project manager.
It does not surprise me that Savarino is willing to reconsider the design since Mike represents the companyis personnel profile.
Also, I am sure they will be open to any design concepts, from the public, on their proposed charter school for the former Telephone Company Building.
The "progress" on this project sounds somehow familiar thus far. I just loved the design, redesign, re-redesign, and re-re-redesign of that Peace Bridge too. Finally, after all these years, a developer who's going to please everybody. Bravo! My only hope is that we see this project underway while I'm still young.
I find this a little disappointing. I would rather see it move forward with minor nitpicks than see it started over from scratch, especially if scratch means a reduction in scale. What was wrong with 5 stories? While I appreciate efforts to work with the community, I fear the design by committee mentality will take anything special out of this. Prove me wrong Savarino!
I think the news made it sound like there was much more opposition then there actually was.
I really hope this gets built. I'd love for my visitors to be able to stay right on the Elmwood strip.
This kinda pisses me off. In the picture at the top of the article I notice one constant. Most of the people at the meeting seem to be old dinosaurs who have done so many good things for Buffalo over the past 50 years.
I hope the opposition will lighten up a little on Savarino and this hotel. This is positive growth, itis what happens in successful commercial districts. Old smaller buildings are replaced by larger ones that use the space more efficiently, itis not like theyire not tearing down architectural treasures. The new building will create more density, it puts more people in the area, and those people will spend more money at area businesses, those local businesses are part of what makes an urban neighborhood an attractive place to live.
The problems pale in comparison to the benefits of this deal. Please give the guy a break, he just went back to the drawing board because of the feedback he received, you guys scared the crap out of him. Iim all for preservation, letis talk about the federal courthouse downtown, but this hotel on the other hand shouldnit be a huge problem.
Not all growth is good growth but in this case itis very positive, and it disserves our support.
Savarino's got to be pretty shrewd to get to where he is, and Eva Hassett can certainly play politics with the best of them. It's quite possible they came out with something bigger than what they actually wanted to build just so they could be "flexible and responsive" to the community. If they'd asked for four floors people would still have complained and they wouldn't have had room to back down.
As for slowing the project, it's very likely the plans aren't so developed that cutting out a floor will be a big deal in terms of time and money. The second, third and fourth floors are probably just the same anyway.
A lot of projects have gotten built in Buffalo over the last few years despite having to undergo so minor redesign in the early stages. If we can't make anything but positive comments about projects without having the Peace Bridge brought up then there's not much point in public forums like BRO, let alone the actually project review process. The Peace Bridge project is where it is today because of the arrogance and incompetence of the Peace Bridge Authority. "Just build it" is not a recipe for success any more than "don't build it."
The problem with public meetings is that they are not a scientific sample and can not measure the actual mood of the populace. Meetings like this a re self selecting. The people with most at stake are the ones liklely to show up. That means a meeting like this is more likely to attract a lage group of NIMBY''s from Granger even though they may represent a small minority against the project when a much larger group may be for the project
Savarino just did what most of the people in this forum thought that BPC should have done in considering new development. Everyone here seemed to think that the opinions of the public should have been included. Perhaps Savarino just went on this board and saw all the people who were shocked about the public not being asked what they thought. Well, they were asked this time and do we get? A smaller, scaled-back project...and a delayed one at that. I just love when the public is asked about what they think, in all their infinate wisdom.
So, the public has no business voicing their views about big projects? That sounds democratic and fair. The Public Bridge Authority was going to build a maintenance dependent backwards bridge -- we should have let them? It's the "Public" bridge authority. This is a private project but it affects lots of the public. The builders don't have to heed the requests or advice of any group, but the fact they are listening makes me respect them much more than the BP and their clumsy handling of the new arts center.
I'm glad we're establishing a happy medium here. smart growth, that facilitates progress and makes sure that the 'free' market doesn't trample community concerns. thanks Buffalo.
This was posted last night and is still relevant: "A public hearing will be held before the Buffalo Common Council at it's regularly scheduled meeting on Tuesday, March 7, 2006, at 2:00 P.M., in the Council Chambers, City Hall, Buffalo, at which time interested parties will be heard on the following: Eva Hassett, Rezone 1109-1121 Elmwood Ave. and 605-607 Forest Ave.
A copy of this item is available for inspection in the office of the City Clerk, Room 1308 City Hall, Buffalo from: The City of Buffalo Clerk
Ms. Hassett, for Savarino Construction, is asking the Common Council to change the R-2 (residential) zoned properties on Forest and the Special Elmwood Zoning District properties on Elmwood to a zoning that would allow the construction of the Hotel project to be completed without any zoning variances i.e.: going before the Zoning Board of Appeals. I highly recommend all interested parties read the zoning laws of Buffalo, (http://gcp.esub.net/cgibin/om_isapi.dll?clientID=64014&advquery=hardship&infobase=buffalo.nfo&rank=&record={21A9AB57}&softpage=Browse_Frame_Pg42&zz=), particularly the opening paragraph and 511-54 about special zoning districts. Please tell me how this project would fit into the "legislative intent of these laws" Is this how we want zoning to be done in our city? If a developer can get specific properties rezoned, on an ad-hoc basis, it bodes poorly for the future of our city. This type of developer driven development puts the work that countless citizens have done to help create zoning laws that protect neighborhoods, history and the like. Please contact your council member, Joe Golombek and the Mayor to let them know what you feel. In addition there is to be major work done on the streets of Elmwood Ave and Forest Avenue-how will this development work with the proposed hotel? What is the plan for our neighborhood? My understanding of good urban planning is first to have one. The proposed change of zoning for the two properties on Forest give a strong hint that the developer has plans for those. If those properties end up as part of the project, it would put it up against a Granger property and directly across the street from Penhurst. I am certain that this is not good urban planning. This project needs to be slowed down and the community needs to come up with a plan to see if this hotel project (at this location or another) would fit into it that plans. In addition, a blog is cool, but it doesn't substitute getting people together-especially the people who live, raise children and want to enjoy the rest of their life here. For all those who live further south in the Village please imagine this hotel going in your front, back, and side yards or within a block. If Mr. Frizlen is reading- where is the model showing the hotel and the neighborhood? That would help put this proposal into perspective. ......Another thought. The Wyndham study indicated a need for 100 rooms in the neighborhood. The current project includes pre-determined layers of profit for banks, developer and hotel chain. I think this tells smaller property owners, potential entrepreneurs and smaller developers that there is a market for inns that are truly boutique and not chain hotels. Again, a plan for the neighborhood might help us figure out if we should wait for the continued grassroots development that has made Elmwood what it is. Note: for the link posted in the last comment- got to Chapter 511
I think the fact that they are willing to take in some of the concerns of neighbors and what not is good.
A lot of cities have hotels in their cultural districts. This is something that makes sense. My only wish was that they did figure out a way to do it on the Richardson Complex.
My 2.5 cents:
The NIMBYism here amazes me to no end. Oh wait, no it doesn't. The local news channels completely blew the opposition out of proportion. Some of the comments of "the angry masses" were quite lame. One woman was pissed that the hotel would somehow obstruct her merry drive down Elwmood.
Oh pullleeazze!! More of the comments consisted of the tired old anti-development rhetoric. Many of these people see all large development as bad, they can't discriminate a bigbox store from a urban-friendly project like this hotel. Folks, this is not WalMart by any stretch of the imagination. This a very in-demand business needed in the area. It's not just about Elmwood, these whiny people should think about the needs of the area. It's not just their puny house and backyard, the is a huge college, a wonderful park and several museums next door. A hotel will bring people into this wonderful part of the city instead of them staying in some redroof inn on the side of the thruway. If it is 5 stories, so what?? These five stories don't go far above the rooflines of surrounding buildings. Real cities have 5 story buildings. Paris and London are all practically 5 stories. Does Buffalo want to become a real city or be stuck in with suburban-like BANANA (Build Absolutley Nonthing Anywhere Near Anything) mentality.
And for the people complaining about changing the zoning for a hotel:
Elmwood is a COMMERCIAL street! It should be densely packed with buildings with ground-floor storefronts right up on the sidewalk. Most of the city is made up of residential side streets packed with those houses we all love. We already have plenty of that. Let Commercial streets expand on their urban character. With all the bombed out, decayed old neighborhood shopping streets, we should be happy we have one as vibrant and sucessful as Elmwood. Exploiting zoning for your own seflish concerns without taking the surroundings into context is foolish. City zoning should be used to keep out suburban-like development, not restrict pedestrian-friendly buildings that will encance the economic health of the city.
Buffalo needs to grow and evolve, it can't be stuck in a timewarp if we actually want to progress. These whiny NIMBY residents are putting their own selfish preferences in the way the City's greater interest. How is Elwmood ever going to grow if people can't restrain themselves from throwing a knee-jerk s**t-fit every time a developer wants to build something taller than a 2.5 story house?? Successful cities are made up How are large companies going to take us seriously when people go, "OH NO, A BIG CHAIN, MUST OPPOSE!"
Think about the city for once, not just your own backyards.
Gabe, I agree with you totally but your delivery is just going to antagonize people with reservations. Best to leave out the name calling ("whiny") and the cracks about their houses ("puny"). If we want to persuade let's use tact and argument. And this is a "real" city--that's why we all live here. It is as real and authentic as they come.
There is a need for 100+ rooms, not neccessarily in one spot. Elmwood is not a regular commercial district, it's a special zoning district. Forest and Granger are zoned R-2 and Penhurst R-1. Read the zoning laws!
You must own a business or aren't trying to raise a family in the city. Alot of Elmwood Village residents who have given many thousands of volunteer hours to trying to create the "Elmwood Village" as opposed to the "Elmwood Strip", and who stand not to directly gain economically from this project, are very concerned about this project in this spot. We are not all living on Granger!
My guess, as a regular visitor to Buffalo, is that a suitable hotel in this location is potentially a great positive-public-relations catalyst for the city, putting people right near some of the city's best attractions, where there is life after dark and there are wonderful eating opportunities nearby. There's an added bonus with this project in that it joins the city as an urban building and has storefronts (and I hope no poor yew bushes tortured into kettle drums and cones on a puny patch of grass).
You apparently have a developer willing to listen to the community (and certainly no end in sight to free architectural advice). That's rare.
If the people of the city truly want a regular stream of hundreds, if not thousands, of visitors to really see and experience the city, and to pour in for special events, spend their money in the neighborhoods, and perhaps think about investing in and even moving to Buffalo, then those visitors need alternative places to stay. There are probably lots of visitors like me: I never even consider the big-scale hotels downtown.
Light and privacy are valid issues, it's true, but this is an area of tall houses on very narrow lots, where already were it not for window coverings, everyone would know everyone else's business.
Sometimes the doomsday sayers are just more visable or louder then the supporters. That may be the case with this great project for a hotel at the corner of Elmwood and Forest. I am VERY supportive of a hotel for this corner having recently moved just a few blocks away from this site. Guests staying at the hotel will help support Elmwood businesses and make the business district even stronger thus making the neighborhood stronger. Target guests staying at the hotel will likely include arts/archetecture tourists who happen to spend 4-times more then sporting event fans (no offense to sporting event fans---we need and want them also) This is a highly educated more upscale target demographic that Buffalo needs and can benefit from by welcoming to the Elmwood strip. LETS EMBRACE THIS HOTEL....because it's a "GREAT IDEA"
Im have to agree with the majority of the posters that I preferred keeping the 5 story version and wouldnt have changed anything.
As far as the criticisms of the old fogies who are anti-development, dont forget that it was those old fogies that stayed on the westside in the 70s, 80s and 90s when so many people either left for the burbs or left the city entirely so they deserve our respect and they deserve to have their opinions heard (I just wouldnt have shortened the hotel to 4 stories but planted trees or evergreens in the rear most people want to be looking out on Elmwood Ave...not into peoples homes)
I thought the hotel was pretty street and pedestrian friendly.
As far as the construction (hey its short term and its part and parcel of improving your community whether its new construction of maintenance)
The only thing I might have changed is to make the design alittle less contemporary and a little more period, perhaps with more elaborate iron railings and/or brickwork and/or the doors/windows so it blends in with the other period buildings on the street instead of being a huge middle finger (aka that 10 story tower) on elmwood.
I think they should have been heard but I wouldnt have changed the size of the project.
"Great Idea Indeed" ....Not only is it a good P R catalyst for the city but also let's look at the immediate gains for the city as well. A hotel of this size will provide I'm guessing anywhere from 250 to 350 jobs at least.
soooo.... why didn't all you people show up and voice these build-it-as-is opinions in person?
I hope the detractors for this project are yelling just as loudly about the proposed casino--posed to ruin my end of the West Side, when it is just now starting to show some promise. Seems lots of friends/family of BuffState students would like to stay near campus, and then the arts/culture tourists, would be nice!! I liked the (sadly, pie-in-the-sky) idea about the Richardson Complex as a hotel...so sad to see it unused as it is a true architectural treasure in our own backyard.
Everyone take a deep breath.
We're acting like kids in a candy store. We can't have it all. This is how it works folks. Give and take, compromise, etc. This is not obstruction, this is part of a thoughtful process (sadly missing at B-P, but don't get me started).
It makes perfect sense to me that the people living closest will have the most to say. That is human nature, and they stand to be impacted the most. Give them a break.
Do you want to know what really obstructs progress? Poor decisions that run counter to the best interests of the city. Let's get this one right for a change.
no one mentioned the possible buffalo visitor center that could occupy the newly renovated Richardson complex... So ...college, two art galleries, visitor center, Frank Loyd Wright houses, Elmwwod shops and resaurants, sounds almost like a nice city...something we ALL want Buffalo to become.
Sorry, I think I got a bit carried away in my first comment. I do have tons of respect for those individuals and familes that stayed in the city and stuck it out through Buffalo's decades of decline. I, myself, was a child of parents who decided to raise my siblings and I in the city and be cowards and flee to the burbs. I spent all my schooling years, K-16 in the BPS, and I think i'm doing okay now =)
I just think people shoudn't overreact to bad to new development, especially when the developer has made it pedestrian commercial district friendly. Maybe being used to having almost no new development for years makes longtime residents a bit skittish when something new is actually going to be built in their own neighborhood.
I hope everyone realizes that allowing a project like this hotel to be carried out, will essentially be saying
"Elwmood Avenue is serious business" "The West Side is serious business" "Buffalo is serious business"
Overall this will make the city more recognized, a great experience for visitors, and a better place to do business.
Maybe reducing the Elmwood hotel from 5 floors to 4 isnt such a bad idea. Lets give it alittle thought.
The reduction in rooms means that there is support for another Boutique Hotel. If not more than one.
The Elmwood Village Hotel proves that Medaille, Canisius and Buffalo State as well as the local business community and cultural institutions still do not have a conference center.
The case is made stronger to use the remaining masonary Richardson annexes for Boutique Hotels, Restaurants and Conference Center since they are in such close proximity.
The reuse of the Richardson annexes together with the towers would revitalize all of Forest Avenue.
Here are the questions that must be asked: 1) Why isnt the Elmwood Business Association willing to put the full weight of its influence behind the Richardson revitalization and expand its influence to Forest Avenue. Cant they see that the revitalization of Forest can only help the Elmwood Business District and the westside?
2) Why isnt Buffalo State championing the Richardson revitalization? Cant they see the potential of using the Richardson buildings along Forest Avenue could do for the dignity of Buffalo State Campus (or do they prefer the 1970s brutalist Planet of the Apes Architecture that dominates the campus)
3) Considering the Peace Bridge revitalization of Niagara Street, the revitalization of Main Street education corridor and the anchor that the Elmwood Strip provides .... why are the residents of the westside focusing so much attention on this hotel instead of trying to extend the momentum to Forest Avenue and Grant Street.
These are the questions that need to be asked? Or is the westside so fragmented that none of the residents actually see themselves as part of the westside community, where positive developments on Main, Delaware, Elmwood, Richmond, Grant, Forest, Niagara Connecticut, Allen, Porter, etc...all contribute to the livability and viability of businesses and residences for the entire westside!
This is what makes it so sad, if not pathetic!
Please. Stop with the Richardson's references! The Richardson's complex is way too far inland away from the street and pedestrian/motor traffic. There happens to be a hospital over there in case you have forgotten so there is likely going to be no development that pulls a large amount of traffic into the area which is what a hotel would require. People check in and check out all day long. The best development for the Richardson's Complex is adaptive reuse associated with Buff State such as offices, classroom space, conference space etc. A hotel would die in the Richardson's space...believe me. And the cost would be prohibitive.
What may be happening is that there is a little of the "kick the dog" phenomenon. Since there was no voice from the masses to persuade or direct the BP (as if New York State would even listen) everyone overreacted and beat-up Savarino's project. There is absolutely nothing wrong with the Savarino project except perhaps cosmetic. Its a beautiful anchor for Forest Avenue. Lowering the hotel one story is going to do nothing. And its not that simple. The cost return on such a project is calculated. Lopping-off a floor may mean lower financial return and may actually kill the project. Careful...this has all the trappings of a Peace Bridge scenario.
Every report of opposition was greatly exaggerated; I was at that meeting, and it certainly was NOT generally against the hotel. More of the comments concerned design elements, and were not made by "dinosaurs"; in fact, most of the negative comments were made by the youngest people there. Most of the negative comments were ignorant, asking for the hotel to "blend" better with the ostensible "1905 architecture" of the block. 1905? The gas station? The bars across the street? The cheap storefronts slapped onto old houses? Hardly historical material.
It's a bit disappointing to see the developer cut 20% off the project at the start, but I hope they go through with it anyway; the Elmwood/Forest area is STAGNANT and needs a big boost; this is IT.
I think that the real majority doesnt want the hotel downsized 20%.
As far as wanting it to blend in more with the 1875-1929 architecture, its a fair request for such a hugely visable structure but no one would hold up construction for it. Its a comment not a demand.
And I agree with you whole heartedly that the B-P is the building that deserves the local attention not this hotel.
However, as far as shutting up about the Forest Ave & Richardson, Grant Street or Niagara Street.....absolutely not! We need to find ways to extend the good things happening on Main Street, Linwood, Delaware and Elmwood...and use that momentum the help stabilize and redevelop the struggling areas of the community. Strengthening our weakest links only increase the strength of the community as a whole. Its no secret why westsiders refuse to think of Forest Ave or Grant or Niagara.....people on the westside only think of the North-South Corridors that they live along...instead of the depth and breadth of the community (aka the east-west corridors like Forest) which is why Forest, Connecticut, Massachussetts, Grant, Ferry, Niagara are all ignored as having any contribution to the westside community.
Until NY State gets its act together with the Richardson site, it's a moot point to talk of putting this hotel there. The land isn't for sale.
Anyone concerned with that site should first pressure the State and City to do something... repair the buildings, divide up the property, rezone the land, etc... before even thinking about pushing developers to consider it.. Otherwise you're just wasting their time.
TYPICAL BUFFALO... A few are not happy, so we all have to suffer. I thought the original design was fine. Now we have to delay the project as noone will EVER agree on anything that is planned here. We should just do what most cities do..JUST BUILD THE DAM THING.
Why do we have to put this on hold because a few people have an opinion. If we continue to do this, then we are just waisting our time. A project will never get done in Buffalo if we continue to listen to EVERYONE'S Opinion about designs, heights, etc....My only opinion to all of this .....JUST BUILD IT.
I agree with Gabe as well as a number of the other respondents whose sentiment leaned to "build it as it is". I moved out of Buffalo five years ago and one thing that i do not miss is the incredible amount of conservatism that seems to permeate everywhere. I remember the Pavilion on the Lake project back in the 80's killed by some conservative residents of Marine Drive who still stare at a huge concrete parking lot. More recently, the haggling over the Peace Bridge Design, which is simply sending industry elsewhere as the Improvement to the bottleneck at the border is unsolved. What I do miss is the finest avenue in upstate New York. the life of shops, cafes, night clubs, linking the college, museum area with Allentown. A hotel certainly would add to this street life. Whether it's parents visiting their child attending Buff State, or simply someone attending a show at the Albright Knox. And I agree with the person who said it would act as an anchor for the forest, elmwood intersection. Buffalo is resplendent with this thanks to Frederick Law Olmsted.
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