This is a unique building, especially at night when it's all lit up. I can totally invision a mix of Ann Taylor and Gap Store here. Why? The window's and street display reminds me of midtown Manhattans 6th. Ave. retail spaces. BTW, is Uniland marketing this space to National Retailers?
You won't see an Apple store in downtown Buffalo. Retail, in general, is in a major contraction period. There have been a number of bankruptcies this year and many more are expected. Retailers are not going to roll the dice downtown anytime soon.
I can totally see retail working in this location. If you even sit at Spot Coffee for awhile and people watch on an average day, you can see a lot of foot traffic passing this area. If a national store or two moved here or in the neighborhood (they would advertise) it can create a spin-off. ..And as far as parking? who cares, plenty of parking on the street, sidestreet, SURFACE lots on Elmwood Ave. Franklin St. etc. a true ctiy doesn't offer up-front parking to every business, that's for the burbs.
Buffalogal expanded on my initial thoughts regarding national clothing retailers. Hamp's comments reminded me of a few national clothing retailers that I know looked at Elmwood Avenue in the 1990s. They concluded their search and decided on the Galleria because the demographic dollar and foot traffic count was much higher than Elmwood. In addition, their research told them that Canadian shoppers were visiting the Galleria regularly; that were not visiting Elmwood.
I don't think this is a gloomy situation because there is a trend across the country of people moving back into their downtowns. Local businesses have the opportunity to set the agenda in the city. The future is bright in the long-term.
Blondie: you say: "Stores make changes all the time to their plans if they want to get into an area bad enough." Very true.
Look no further than the former Rite Aid on Elmwood @ Virginia and the Walgreen's on Delaware @ North. Both were modified to appease preservation concerns at increased cost to the store (though neither final product looks so hot--especially the Walgreen's; fugly). Those retailers wanted to be at those locations and so they put up with extra cost to do it. Although consider that those were 'new builds'; the dimensions of the stores were still cookie cutter, fitting their companies' profiles.
Still, if a retailer really wants to be in a market badly enough, they'll put up with things that they normally wouldn't. Take Walmart. In Manhattan they'll take a multi floor store in a large building without any parking in front. They won't do that in Buffalo, but in Manhattan they'll bend over backwards to make something work because they do indeed want to be there badly enough.
All we are saying regarding this property is that those of us with experience in the business recognize that national retailers don't, at the moment, want to be here badly enough to make this space fly for them. Your expectation that a drug store would be attracted to this space, for example, is mistaken. On Main Street, in the heart of downtown, they'll put up with an old fashioned storefront (see Rite Aid and CVS). But otherwise, it's a signalized intersection (the more major the streets, the better the site) with 1.5-2.0 acres and most definitely drive thru capability. Drug stores are the creme de la creme of retail tenants. They pay the most money for the best sites. They can afford to pay what almost no one else can. If a drug store shows up at your door asking to buy, cross your fingers.
Walgreen's recently closed a store on Delaware Ave in Kenmore because they replaced it with two new ones at better intersections (Delaware/Kenmore and Delaware/Sheridan). Walgreen's still pays rent on the closed store (15 years left on the initial term of the lease, give or take). They still pay taxes on the closed store ($108,000/year just in real estate taxes, just for the closed store. The rent is on top of that. Your Town of Tonawanda tax dollars at work). But Walgreen's can make it work because health care in America involves lots and lots of prescriptions. They can make high rent work. They cannot make sub-prime locations work. They'll pay top dollar to be where the customer is. If they don't, their competitor (who does pay for top location) eats their lunch. Uniland's 285 Delaware site offers no drive through, no dedicated parking, etc. Not even for a moment did Uniland imagine a drug store would be interested. They know better, too. I think they knew full well that the retail component would be a stretch at this time. I applaud them for developing it, as the future will perhaps look better for retail here. But I don't want us to imagine that we can build all the retail type space we'd like and that "if we build it they will come."
When we get negative and say: "This and that won't work for such and such a reason", we are still, in our own way, helping to shape a successful city. It does not behoove us as a community to overbuild spaces of any type; office, industrial, retail, residential. If a market is flooded with unused new spaces, that market tends to crash and stay depressed for a while. Empty new office buildings? Lots of boom-bust cities have developed them and suffered for a decade or so. Empty condo towers? See real estate values in Florida right about now. A key to success is sustainability. We should want to guide growth which is sustainable.
It's not like I'm never wrong. I never thought Bernie Obletz' food terminal lofts would fly, for example. Good thing he didn't need my opinion to go ahead. I'm wrong lots of times. In this particular case, though, I have some work experience which might offer insight into why these spaces remain empty. That's all.
We cannot be successful without recognizing reality. Reality can get in the way of lots of dreams. But that doesn't mean dreams don't come true. For real estate dreams to come true, they just have to be based on market realities. All who recognize any aspect of reality are free to express so, as they perceive it. In pointing out what we perceive to be 'truths' we are all attempting to better the product of our discussions.
Unless I am mistaken Buffalo said no to the GAP on Elmwood. They also said no to Starbucks because it might hurt the feelings of Cafe Aroma (poor service) but Starbucks came anyway...they wouldn't be denied by hooterville.. Plus the demographics are not in favor of national retail downtown. Buffalo needs 100,00 more people with money. We just came off a spate of ghastly mayors and county execs. maybe this team will be able to make a difference. MORE PEOPLE MORE MONEY...
Bait and switch is not only bad business practice, but the mortgage markets have recently reminded us that it's not a good idea to "give" anyone something they can't afford in the long term. Finishing out a space to client specification is an expensive proposition which is generally recouped over the term of the lease. It makes better sense to wait for qualfied tenant than to "fill the space." Median ground floor retail rent in Manhattan is just over $300 per square foot. On Madison Avenue it's over $1000 per square foot. In downtown Buffalo it ranges between $15 -$30 per square foot. Price is not a barrier for downtown retail when competing for national business. Buffalo rents are forced by the marketplace to be below most. What we consider "expensive" is a deal in most places. We have high construction and regulatory costs and comparitively low rents. Our rents are already attractive to out-of-town companies - but rent is a small piece of the cost and sustainability of a retail business. What we need is a growing, engaged populace which lives downtown and feeder markets from the suburbs which are ready and willing to shop downtown. Those are the numbers that invite and sustain retail business. As a community, we're chipping away at that boulder. But , at least for now, it is a serious roadblock. In the end, there is no one solution that will make it go away. No one project or initiative will make it disappear overnight. But we are working on it and every real initiative helps.
What about the businesses on Chippewa taking care of their streetscape? Do you think the city takes care of the Elmwood Village area? No...the businesses pitch in and do it themselves....we can't rely on the city to do everything for everyone!
Blondie, you seem to have a lot of energy.
Here are my suggestions:
plant some flowers on chippewah or hang some flowers,
get new lamp posts,
plant more trees.
pave the street or replace it with cobblestone and new curbs.
Clean the debris off the street.
Offer rehab grants for loft conversion on Chip street and you may get retail.
Fire the Mayor and the common council.
A couple of comments...
First - the "door" thing is a valid question. The solution is simple. There is nothing written in stone that says you couldn't convert one or more of the window bays into a direct entrance into the space. We do it all the time. I've designed and renovated plenty of existing tenant spaces.
Second - A major sign denoting any tenant needs to be worked out with the owner of the building, but there are plenty of spaces to do it. The "band" that runs along the second floor level is wide enough for a decent marquee. There can always be tasteful signage located in the zone of any second floor window bay - again, it would have to be worked out with the owners and existing tenants.
Last - the idea of initially offering lowered rents is an extremely valid one - it's not "bait and switch" if it's included in the original lease and carefully spelled out. The only thing is that the discount cannot be below what it would cost the owner if the space were left vacant. But that is a very valid idea, and I'm shocked that no landlord seems to be exploring the idea. As foot traffic and sales demand it - the landlord and tenant can work together to see that their relationship remains successful as the need arrises...
RonR:
Having worked with some national chains i can bolster paulbuffalo's argument. Chains typically like a vanilla box of particular dimensions into which they fit their particular cookie cutter plan. (Often they will have several alternate plans for particular sets of dimensions; plan A for one size box, plan B for another, etc.) They tend to strongly dislike layouts which don't fit the profile.
I very much like trees. Most chain retailers wouldn't. Ditto for the bay windows. You're right that if the street were filled with people and other shops that these, too, would find tenants. On Elmwood, these spaces would be filled despite the unusualness of the space (but perhaps not with national chains). I don't think it's impossible to find good retail tenants for these spaces, but at the moment (particularly in the present economy) it's tough.
GDC, no 60,000 workers is not enough and the average income of those 60,000 is not enough. Hopefully, that will change in the future.
Remember, again, that retailers are closing stores across the country and more will go bankrupt before 2008 is over.
Density is important for urban neighborhoods, but it's not necessarily the only way that downtown retail can thrive. There are urban neighborhoods in many cities, especially in the west, that rely on car shoppers to survive. Buffalo is more a Midwestern than an Eastern city; it has for a long time had a more breathable, open-spaced, rambling feel. That's why cars, perhaps unfortunately, still work so well in Buffalo--and it's not hard to park dowtown around Delaware Ave., even during business hours.
If the city can continue to enhance the experience of being dowtown, people who work there, people who live in suburbs, people who live in North Buffalo, could all enjoy going to a downtown retailer instead of driving to a mall. So I wouldn't automatically write this space off for national retail--with the right marketing and more events downtown, it's not impossible. And as for the "second poorest city" mantra--there is plenty of private money in WNY. Like all older northern cities, Buffalo has high rates of poverty--they all do, with the differences in those rates relatively small. That term is a messy use of language--it implies that the entire city is nothing but impoverished people. It would be more accurate to say "second highest rate of urban poverty"; there's a canyon of difference in the way those phrases are received by people.
Solid office with corner cafe or retail banking. This is a very attractive building and no doubt the first floor interior space is a total knockout. But the area is just not ready for heavy retail yet. So few cities in america have retail environments downtown anymore. One hears this lament all over. What retailers look for is lots of income, lots of education, and lots of kids. How many downtowns deliver all three? Or even two? And destination retailers like REI or Bass Pro wouldn't locate in a place like this: it's not form-fitting. What's great is that Uniland is doing terrific work Downtown and as much as anyone, is bringing Downtown closer to that critical mass of product that will lead to the moment when retailers look around like what they see. I only wish them the best here.
RonR, I take your point that if this site had the right demographic, national retailers would take interest and try to work with the landlord. What happens without that demographic?. I've not passed myself off as an authority, but I have had involvement with these design issues nationally for years. You know of national retailers that would like the conditions that this storefront presents? I don't and I pointed out the reasons. We disagree.
Buffalogal: well said. PaulB: ditto.
GDC: there are professionals trying to market downtown. They're called commercial real estate agents. We try to make a commission wherever there seems opportunity. Some in the business are uber successful. If there is a commission to be earned, there will be five guys trying for it. Demographically, this is not a national chain site. There are simply too few residents. I applaud the developer and the architect for creating an attractive building with great street presence. But without sufficient 'rooftops', retail won't fly.
For those of you who are always advocating the development of retail first floors, here's another example of the market containg more opportunities than tenants. I agree that first floor spaces in many newly constructed buildings should be developed with the consideration of possible future conversion to retail. But to insist upon retail (especially it at the start) burdens developers with unused space and burdens streetscapes with vacancies.
I think we have to differentiate between big-box destination retail and specialty retail. BassPro, a big-box retailer, can work in Buffalo because it will be the exclusive retailer catering to a sporting clientele and BassPro is receiving major incentives. I think the development area near BassPro will see retail that is geared toward tourism and food. There, you may see Jamba Juice, Sunglass Hut, and the like. The problem, though, is the winter months. Will tourists be walking the waterfront in February? If you cannot guarantee a selling environment 12 months a year, it will be difficult to entice well-known retail to that area.
Specialty retail, like AnnTaylor and Gap (the retailers mentioned further above), look at the demographic, lease incentives, and whether there is a major retail anchor or cluster of other well-known stores. Most specialty retail typically has a breakdown of 80% mall stores and 20% street stores. Downtown Buffalo doesn't currently have the income level, foot traffic, cluster of well-known brands that will entice specialty retail.
If you're looking for non-mall national retail in western New York, I would expect that the Maple Road development in Amherst may snare something. It has the demographic, it's a new development that retailers like, and a Whole Foods market will be there.
Gaustad hit it right. Chippewa looks a mess. Drive down it at night and yes...it looks okay. Drive down in the daylight and it is atrocious. The trees that were planted look as if they're never watered, the sidewalks look terrible, there are oil barrels for garbage cans, there are weeds growing where there were trees removed that died. Everything looks dirty and obviously not maintained. The city should be looking for beatification grants. Little things like putting in brick (dark colored so they dont shoiw dirt) sidewalks and special touches which would make the street pop.
RonR,
1. Retailers are not looking for a sense of space with trees. Having worked directly with retailers nationwide, I can convey that this would be a concern. (I worked directly with one retailer who had young trees cut down illegally in the middle of the night because it slightly obscured their logo.)
2. Having lived for years in midtown Manhattan before I moved to Los Angeles, I can say that, yes, I have been to a big city. No retailer is going to hang a banner from an office window. If you're referring to a blade sign, these, too, would not extend from the second floor section. Any national retailer would want large lighted signage.
3. Again, having worked with retailers, I can say that, yes, extended window bays are not a plus.
4. Yes, I can see the double-doors from the hallway, but street foot traffic is not exposed to an interior corridor. I agree with JohnMarko that one of the window bays could be converted to a double-door as a solution.
Finally, there was no need to be crude. My points were merely for the purposes of discussion.
I don't want to play musical deck chairs, but I do think this would be a better location for The Ulitmate Men's Shop (as long as they fire their lazy staff, first).
The "second poorest city" is really getting old.
There are plenty of places where retail is thriving. Including portions of Delaware, Elmwood, and yes the suburban shopping malls.
Elmwood works because it has critical mass, something that the area around 285 Delaware doesn't have yet. National chains are not the answer, either. . Buffalo has a lot of success with local establishments in the city. That's how we're going to revive retai/commerical in the city.
So much doom and gloom.
If you want to feel better I suggest you go out today and spend some money at one of the many locally owned shops and restaurants. Have some fun.
I've been following this project since it was announced, and although I was initially wondering how well the building would fit into the Delaware Avenue mix, it looks better to me every time I see it - really nice work by Hamilton Houston Lownie, in my view. WCP's photos show it off quite well.
Blondie, you may be confusing negativity with constructive criticism. I think this is one of Buffalo's better looking new buildings. The first floor storefront presents some challenges for a national specialty retailer, though. That's it.
I'm glad you're a Buffalo booster and it's evident in all of your comments. There is room for many views on BuffaloRising. Isn't that why all of us read it?
If we had the right people to Market Downtown as a place to do business instead of scaring them away. We might just win some interest in national retailers and corporatations here.
I also really enjoy this building. It really adds a little freshness to the street and the landscaping job in front is by far the best single urban sidewalk in the city. Up kept, well designed, functional all year long. Retail is just a matter of time, Delaware already has several retail establishments and as more residential units come online and the wealth starts to fill in and densify in the surrounding west side and Allentown I see these filling up.
(broken record) No part of Buffalo, especially Chippewa, looks like a war zone. (broken record)
John,
I am not sure you want a door that directly opens to the street into the store. Ever been to Buffalo in the winter?
I think "retail" can go here but nothing clothing. Not sure if Apple views downtown as a potential market but this would be a nice spot for an Apple store. They are a destination retail store IMO.
In terms of clothing type retail, I think the focus should be in the Cobblestone district. No matter what people feel, the Casino is going to get built and open. People talk all of the time about how it would hurt bars and restaurants, but what about a retail district in the Cobblestone?
Find a way to get a large anchor store like Macy's in the cobblestone parking lots. Maybe some type of tax incentives??? This would create a retail strip between the Casino and Bass Pro with HSBC and Canal side in the middle. Focus the effort to put retail under the skyway, which is a dumb idea, and focus that on the Cobblestone. Extend the Metro just 1600 feet down South Park.....
Eventually, if Main ever gets it's act together, the retail strip could round the corner and go up Main. Maybe in 10 years this would lead to another anchor store at the old AM&A's?
Two birds with one stone if you ask me. This is how you start to stack your odds.
GDC, no major clothing retailer is interested in downtown Buffalo. The demographic dollar is just too low and there is little foot traffic. (AnnTaylor alone has over 20 locations in Manhattan because there is so much foot traffic there.) No one has to lure national retailers. They have departments who seek out the right demographic opportunity in every zip code across the country. No, it will take local businesses, who truly understand the area, to succeed. That's not such a bad thing.
If more people move downtown and real density begins to happen, then national retail will be glad to set up shop.
From a design perspective, this building's ground floor presents visual obstacles for any national retailer.
1. Growing trees obscure the view.
2. There is no room for a prominent logo that can be easily seen.
3. Extended window bays pose challenges for displaying merchandise effectively, especially from a lighting standpoint. (It's really a 1970s design feature that you don't see anymore.) The building owners would achieve better results by eliminating the bays and retaining larger flush-mounted glass panes. Keep in mind that national retailers send the same marketing materials to hundreds of stores at a time. This store would require its own marketing materials because the storefront is not typical.
4. The existing doors to the retail area are single-door with no vestibule and the doors appear almost hidden within the window bays. National retailers want large double-doors that they can swing open to encourage foot traffic.
A retail store wants to be seen by everyone possible. This site poses a major challenge.
GDC, good luck getting Ann Taylor or Gap to move downtown. Buffalo is still 10,000 lofts away from seeing any significant retail move downtown.
Chip street is our main attraction in Buffalo and it still looks like a war zone. Why can't the city invest a little in the entertainment district. It is NOT aesthetically pleasing.
This retail space is probably the most expensive in the entire county.....and it has no parking.
And, Paul, if National Retailers have departments to search zip codes only. Then why do Developers and Leaders in cities (Mayor Brown went to one ONCE) go to National Retailers Conventions? And why did Benderson Developement go to one recently to SELL the Inner Harbor District to retailers? If you don't promote, they wont come, it's common scense. Galleria Mall has a marketing team that promotes to retailers, that's why they recently expanded and brought in more retailers. They didn't just google and say "let's locate to the Galleria".
Paul,
1- Does not make sense. Trees provide a sense of place, something retailers look for. Besides, they have this nasty little trend of growing. Soon they will be above the 1st floor.
2- A logo can easily be placed on this building. Ever been to a big city guy? They simply hang banners between the windows from the 3rd to 2nd floor that go out about 3 feet.
3 - Extended bay windows provide a PERFECT setting for window displays. You simply place a wall behind them and Volia! you have a closed in display window and do not give up any floor space. Or you simply place displays in the window with a view into the store. Once again you do not give up any floor space....
4 - I think you need to pull your head out of your arse. The door to the street opens to a main hall. From this hall, the 2 spaces have double doors that open outward into the shared hall space.
The site itself poses zero challenges. The lack of things around it do. If this was on a filled in block, and people lived around it, the space would already be occupied.
1* me! Proves my point. the truth hurts sometimes. Miserable people on here hiding behind their computers and finding the problems with every story on here but yet offering no solutions. Someone gives an idea of what might be better and you shoot it down.
This retail space is a much better option that the old Main Place Mall or many other shopping locations in this area of downtown. It will get occupied. I could see a drug store jumping in there. Could see many differrent options that would work. Stores makes changes all the time to their plans if they want to go into an area bad enough.
Why do people have to be so critical and negative about every damn story on this site??? So frustrating. It is about every story someone has to find a negative. BUffalo RISING. Get off here with your negative posts and negative energy!!!!!!
2nd poorest city in the US does not encourage retailers to move to Buffalo.
Our politicians are retarded and city hall is corrupt. Its a 3 month town.
Paul,
Not to be crude as well but you are speaking from a absolute position. Which is wrong.
For every retailer who point out not wanting trees, I could come up with on that likes landscaping. For every retailer that would not want a blade sign, I could come up with ones that use them. For every retailer that does not like extended windows, I can come up with ones that do. The only difference is I am not trying to pass myself off as an absolute authority but rather just observing actual retail locations.
The simple truth is if this site had the right foot traffic and the right demographics in the neighborhood, issues like trees, signs and windows would not matter.
gaustad hit it right on the head "our politicians are retarded"...I have no idea what rents are at this building but if I was the property manager I would slash them to 1/10 or 1/20 of current price and use a "bait and switch" technique to pull new businesses down in that location. This city (besides being a 3 month town) will be eternally screwed if it continues to think it has the demand and money of NYC. You have to make rents, taxes, and therefore prices SO LOW that companies (Out of Town) say, "Yeah I dont mind throwing xxx dollars at Buffalo to see what happens". (Aka pulling business from Toronto/NYC) This is normally not the best way to drive new business but when you are the 2nd poorest city in America with high taxes and large capital-draining unions, you have to compensate in other areas...
If retail won't work on Main right now it definitely won't work on Delaware.
Downtown.
Good point. Maybe Apple is a little high end for DT but similar type of store as a Verizon. It is not sexy but a FedEx Kinkos would do well here. They run a clean store and have a good service.
Geez, I think Chip Strip is pretty nice, never really thought it was "NOT aesthetically pleasing". What do you want to see flowers in everybody's drink?
I'm suprised a rite aid or tim hortons doesn't move into one of these spaces. Both are sure bets anywhere.
I wouldn't mind if M&T puts a bank in one of these spaces. I'm alitlte surprised they haven't yet, seems how their offices are upstairs.
With the outrageous prices for most of the first floor space downtown, who in this area can really pay that kind of rent? they cost more a month (minus electric) than the highest priced loft right now. Yeah, some local boutiques would be nice, but what do we have now? Jenny Shop? and??????? what happend to Get Dressed??? Clothing is an iffy business and with the rents so high, it's tough to know if you can make enough sales to pay next months rent. (because they are so high)
That is true, doc. Many in the Elmwood Village didn't want the Gap Store on Elmwood for fear of more national stores coming in and taking away business from the local owners. So now we have NO national stores on Elmwood. Thanks Elmwood Village Association. And Downtown can support big retailers, we already near 60,000 workers, 1,000+ residents in the central business district...Isn't that enough to get a retailer in?
Downtownjunkie, cell phone stores are a good possibilities because cell phones are not discretionary item purchases.
We need vegetables.
No short sighted gadgetry and no more coffee and no more alcohol. I know Buffalo has some "thing" against Whole Foods Market. Wouldn't it make sense to have a small versioned Wegmanns there? That is a great destination because it provides lunch for people who drive in during the week but do not want to have to drive somewhere for lunch and it provides bike riders someplace to stop on the weekends. Also when business peeps go home, they don't have to drive to Amherst or North Buffalo to pick up something like cheese or milk. I also think trees and bay windows DO provide a sense of place and they provide sunlight for flowers and vegetables.
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