Losing a small, unimportant structure to see the rest of this block get the renovations is perfectly ok. Why fight every demo, every developer, every improvement? Preservationists can do great things but choosing one's battles wisely would rank pretty high on that list. The Livery was important. the rest of this block is important. A small parking lot is a waste of everyone's time and energy. Move on.
Looking at the aerial there are apporx 28 spaces behind it and this would add approx 12. Is 12 spaces really that big of a deal breaker with all the other parking nearby? Make the workers walk a half a block and reserve the 30 adjacent spots for patients.
Or convert this structure into (or demo and build) a main entry or atrium greeting cars from the rear and people from the street (lots across of it)?
Keep focusing everything on parking and all you will guarantee is the need for more parking as people are forced to park and drive to every single task they have to do in their day.
Comparing Larkin to this is apples to oranges. Larkin was a tragedy. This is not. You guys need to stop sensationalizing this and twisting it. There is a big difference between buying a piece of land (that looks like crap right now), rehabing some and demo-ing some for a p-lot and buying up whole city blocks and leveling them. No one would let that happen and its silly to draw that comparison. This is an improvement that we've all had a love in about so far. Now they want to add a few parking spaces and we've decided its bad. And yes, its their property, they can do what tehy wish with it.
Now I'm confused. Are we for the medical campus or against it? I coulda swore we all loved it cause its gonna be a huge step in the right direction for Buffalo. But now we don't like it cause they're spreading out a little bit? I think I speak for all us idiots when I say, Kaleida if you buy it/lease it whatever, do whatever the heck you want with it. Knock it down, re-use it, go nuts!
SBROF and MJ,
Just how much do people pay to park at work in Amherst? The answer is nothing. I just do not see where anyone has the right to tell a business they should have their employees walk. Even if the city did this, the response would be....ok...see you later.
The parking lot across the street is privately owned. What give you or anyone besides the owner the right to determine who parks there? I just do not get the perspective of some people on their view of property rights.
The ideal situation would be for the large lot across the street to be converted to a parking deck. But who pays for that? Are you willing to chip in with zero return to save the building? The general number I got was $9500 per spot.
So the question is how do you get parking lot owners to build parking decks and make it a win win situation? I would love to hear any ideas.
Townline - No matter how much people want to make Buffalo this urban mecca, the reality is most of Buffalo not urban. Sorry a converted double on a main street is NOT urban. What you do not get is I LOVE urban design. I would love to see Main covered block by block of buildings to the curb as it once was. However, it has less than HALF of the people it did when that was the case.
This project is a win. It is better then what is there. Because NOTHING was there. What you are failing to grasp IMO, is when this section of Main was block after block and no parking, the west side of Main had block after block of houses and LOTS of residents. That does not exist today. The people working here are going to be coming from other parts of the region. They will be driving. They need to park. It is as simple as that.
In terms of urban fabric, I am not talking about the height of buildings. I am talking about the density of people around commercial corridors allows for a street to be entirely built out. BOTH sides of Elmwood are full of side streets that are full of residents. In case you have not notices, BOTH SIDES OF MAIN ARE NOT!
You create critical mass by first bringing people back into the city. When this building is open, there will be people in this section of town. No doubt the Anchor Bar will see a spike in business. I also feel that this will help the section between Anchor Bar and St. Paul's find a better use then what is there today. It could be a retail strip or it could be a mixed use building. Look at what is at the corner of Main and North today. There is a auto shop, the anchor bar, a newer small building with a large parking lot and a newer 1 story retail. Not that impressive.
Give this development a couple of years and I am confident that this corner will change. When the corner changes, it will migrate up Main and two both side of North. I mean this is on the edge of Allentown and it was vacant. All of this CAN happen if a project like this goes in there. If these sit empty, this corner still sucks. And no matter who you put in there, if they are a business they are going to need parking.
Lastly, you can not give an idea of how to solve something unless you see the plan but you can piss on a project without seeing the plan. Do you realize how stupid you sound. \\
Typical BRO blowhard....
I'm guessing that the parking isn't primarily for employees. The building is going to be used as an outpatient clinic, so for conveniece purposes, I assume they want the spaces nearby to accomodate patients.
New flash guy...just because you want something does not make it a need. It would be awesome if all of Buffalo was urban. I would be awesome if all of Main was filled with buildings and not vacant. But that is not a reality.
The reality is these buildings are empty and they are located on a section of Main that has had better days. What is ridiculous is to piss on 70k+ sq feet of space that is going to be put to use because an ugly building with no significance other then it being a building is going to be removed to make that happen.
Sadly, the answer is yes. If an owner owns a building that is not historically significant and wants to tear it down, they have every right to do so. It is not like this building is coming down so it can be "shovel ready"..it is coming down so two much larger buildings can be put into use.
See I find people like you funny because there are countless EMPTY lots up and down Main that sit empty. There are other buildings that are vacant as well. Instead of doing something about those, people like you sit back and wait for others to come along and invest their money and then piss on what they do. Really pathetic.
I do not see you pissing and moaning about the large parking lot on the corner of Main and North. Having something there would do MUCH MUCH more for the urban fabric. Why is that guy? You are complaining about 52ft when there are 1000's of street front up and down Main that are nothing close to urban.
You say you want your neighborhood to be urban? So besides bitching on BRO, what the hell are you doing to make that happen?
Did you guys even read the article? The building slated for demo is the grey building to the far left (as WCP mentioned). The four story buildings as well as the contecting building in between will be the ones used by Kaleida. Considering these will be used for out-patient clinics, parking on that side of the street is an absolute need.
"The building coming down, or planned to come down, is the one-story building cut-off on the far left of the entry image."
If that building was to be built today, people would fight is, as being ugly, one-story, and not having enough windows. But, now people are ready to fight its demolition!
Go figure.
New flash guy...just because you want something does not make it a need. It would be awesome if all of Buffalo was urban. I would be awesome if all of Main was filled with buildings and not vacant. But that is not a reality.
The reality is these buildings are empty and they are located on a section of Main that has had better days. What is ridiculous is to piss on 70k+ sq feet of space that is going to be put to use because an ugly building with no significance other then it being a building is going to be removed to make that happen.
Sadly, the answer is yes. If an owner owns a building that is not historically significant and wants to tear it down, they have every right to do so. It is not like this building is coming down so it can be "shovel ready"..it is coming down so two much larger buildings can be put into use.
See I find people like you funny because there are countless EMPTY lots up and down Main that sit empty. There are other buildings that are vacant as well. Instead of doing something about those, people like you sit back and wait for others to come along and invest their money and then piss on what they do. Really pathetic.
I do not see you pissing and moaning about the large parking lot on the corner of Main and North. Having something there would do MUCH MUCH more for the urban fabric. Why is that guy? You are complaining about 52ft when there are 1000's of street front up and down Main that are nothing close to urban.
You say you want your neighborhood to be urban? So besides bitching on BRO, what the hell are you doing to make that happen?
On this part of Main Street to "not look to jagged toothed" is not a good enough reason to keep this facade. If this building goes, the facade should go with it. It is not special(architecturally) and on this part of Main there are already plenty of interruptions to the street's continuity with parking lots, churches and lawns. I guess i don't see its value and my guess is that many others won't either. This would not be a smart fight for the preservationists to take on.
Sorry Man,
With some of the people on BRO, that comment could be considered dead serious....
My bad.
TownLine....
The building coming down is insignificant at best. If you want to talk about parking in the downtown core great. But this building is NOT in the downtown core. It is in Allentown, which comes with its own challenges.
To expect or demand urban development for all of the CoB is silly. There simply is not enough people to build like that everywhere. It also gets old having people always blame the developer. There are multiple groups involved. If this is done, do you know how many people will be working here? If they do not get the 36 spaces, those cars are going to go on North Pearl and the uppity Allentown folks will have a fit.
So instead of pointing the finger, what is your solution to provide parking for all of these people and keep the building? I would love to hear it.
While it would be hard to find companies that have left the area due to being forced to do better design, it is even harder to find companies that are investing in the city. I am sure people are going to pop off some list but it is not that much or not close to enough. The fact that Kaleida has a huge investment in the city and has a ton of money DOES NOT give people like you to hold them hostage. It is this mindset that forced a lot of companies away. There was a time when people thought GM and Steel were not going anywhere as well.
So what is your solution to keep the street front full but provide parking for the 50-75 est workers who will be going here everyday.
Even if there was a deal made with the lot on the other side of the street, there is not a cross walk. How do you solve that?
They could put a parking deck in the rear but how do you solve the pissed of residents who would have a parking deck as their view from the front porch?
I call bullshit on destroying the "urban fabric" Wiz. As I said before, this building is nothing special. With the situation in Buffalo, you have to have a little give and take when the location is not a historic building or in the downtown core. If taking down a 1 story insignificant building allows for 2 somewhat historic buildings to see a new life...so be it. An urban fabric is created when there is critical mass. There is nowhere in the city that has critical mass. Even the beloved Elmwood Ave.
From my point of view, the whole point of the Medical Campus was to push development out. Which is exactly what is happening here. I hope this is just a first step in the climb up Main. I can see it crossing North and filling in between the Anchor Bar and St. Paul's. Right there you have over 200ft that is open and holds a Wendy's.
Let it stretch out and then go back and fill in.
Well if you don't allow the demolition of the crappy little building on the left, it is likely that the property will NEVER be occupied. This is not Manhattan, and this is not Buffalo circa 1915.. The need for parking is a way of life for 99% of the country. Require some landscaping and make the parking lot look as nice as possible. But anyone getting agita over losing this building, knowing that it is the only way to restore the rest of the property, is a total fool.
What is worse then a parking lot hater???? A bike rack lover!
While I like the concept of having bike racks, they are not going to supplement the need for parking on this site 12 months out of the year. You have been in Buffalo during the winter right?
As for calling for a pocket skate park on Main near the medical campus that has cost MILLIONS....what are you 12?
I can see where people would get trigger happy and pissed at the parking. I am not one of them.
This is above Tupper. I only have a challenge with parking lots South of Tupper, West of Elmwood and East of Michigan. I see this section all the way to the water as the downtown core.
I also do not see a problem with this parking lot because the building is nothing special. It could be built today. When you take down something that can not....I have a problem.
My concept of urban has more to do with the amount of people that live and work in an area and what businesses and services are located in that area compared to the amount of buildings that reside in an area. To say we need to keep the structures, even if it prevents them from being used, does not create an urban environment. It creates a ghost town. Which is pretty much what Main is compared to what it should be.
I live in an urban area. I live in a loft. We want the same things. I just see this as a step in the right direction.
IF the time comes where a parking lot is worth less then having a structure on it, then the structure will get built. It is as simple as that. This rule is why NYC is the way it is and why Buffalo is the way it is.
IF people really wanted to have development happen on the parking lots, two things need to happen. This is just for downtown.
1 - Is tax the lots as what they should be and not what it is. This is the main reason why there are so many parking lots. Don't blame the developers..blame the city. They set the rules...
2 - Provide assistance and tools and breaks to developers to build on those lots. Natural construction in Buffalo is difficult. Clear the BS and allow it to happen. The reason Amherst kicked the shit out of Buffalo in terms of growth the last 30 years was due to it being easier to develop there.
Instead of bitching that Amherst needs to play nice, PLAY THE GAME. Make it even easier to develop in the city.
It is that simple.
Quite complaining about the stupid one story building and think about the rest of the project. There will be hundreds of professional doctors and nurses working at this site. Hopefully some of these employees will decide to relocate to this area. If Buffalo can attract young professionals into the city, it helps everyone out. Either get with the program, or get out of the developers way. Believe it or not, Mr. Paladino cares more about this city than any tree huger or preservationist ever has.
Parking lots that face streets detract from the streetscape, and make walking on the sidewalk less safe. There are a lot of visually impaired persons in this neighborhood.
Open lots make the pedestrian experience less interesting, and ultimately decreases the value of nearby properties, and the neighborhood.
Parking should be behind the buildings whenever possible, especially on Main Street.
PS I think zoning and the Light Rail overlay district prohibit parking lots?
Bye bye, Assaroni = TonyMacaroni = BROKEEPSBLOCKINGME. Chasing you away will be fine for now, thanks.
MRodgers,
And these companies can justify the added expense how? In case you did not know, doing business in WNY is already expensive. So what you are asking is businesses should spend MORE money then they need to invest just so the street front has a better view?
How about this. Why don't the people who have issues with this project go after the empty lots or the buildings that are not planned for rehab? Why don't people take action on projects that have zero impact instead of waiting for an article in BRO to tell them a new project has started and jump on that?
plenty of parking lots can be fronted w/first floor retail of some type
I would ask for that and one level below ground
I say fight the demolition of this building. We don't need more parking on Main Street. Kaleida and Paladino have plenty of room for a large number of bike racks in front of these buildings, one added benefit would be that all of the dialysis patients would get some exercise when they go there for treatment. In lieu of bicycles this location is right on a Metro transit route, people can take the bus. It's time to stop the automobile-centric thinking regarding the development of downtown.
I think that this building would be perfect for a pocket indoor skate park. Gut it, and set it up. Between this and the many bike racks it would spearhead the rapid redevelopment of this area of Main Street.
Most of us do not want more surface parking.
We want urban streetscapes that attract people to the city. We should be creating a pedestrian friendly neighborhood, not a haven for cars.
The Planning Board shouln't approve this, nor should the Allentown Association sit back and allow it.
Does it make sense to demolish an 80 year old building for a parking lot? I don't care how small or insignificant it might seem. It's been around for a long time. When it comes down, this piece of our history will end up in a landfill somewhere. That's a waste of energy, and it's not sustainable.
I smell bullshit. Why doesn't Kaleida build within the Medical Campus proper instead of destroying urban fabric on Main St? Maybe an old urban commercial/storefront building isn't the best place for an outpatient clinic. Besides, theres more than enough parking in the immediate area.
I can't stand it when urban removal is lauded as "progress". It's amazing as gas keeps going up in price, the future of the happy motoring utopia looks more and more dubious, yet every idiot still thinks tearing down a city for car storage is a great idea.
just across the street the whole block of goodrich-main-high-ellicott is a all parking. half a block east is a parking garage. there is already parking behind it. why do we need another hole in main street?
yes it is a small building but these small chips away at the fabric add up. Above it was mention about the Anchor BAr and Wendy's etc....that they need their parking. Of coarse they do. But now imagine that development up to the street with the parking behind the structures. You would still have you parking while also creating the streetscape to promote interaction and further growth. If there plan was to knock it down for a building similar to 665 Main with parking behind and underneath, but flush to main then great. knock it down.
Once again we force these things into being either-or proposals. Either we have to have street side surface lots or no parking at all. But both can be done and when done right the neighborhood will be worth more. we just need everyone to play by the same set of rules and let them know that everyone else will too.
How long til someone complains about the creation of another parking lot?
3. . . 2 . . . 1. . .
i think it's funny that people think a building on main street can come down for parking, at least leave the facade so the street scape does not look to jagged toothed. maybe they can rent a lot from the catholic charities, which pretty much destroyed the area with all their parking lots.
good move here. The parking/car space is def. needed. Now hopefully this will bring life to the building adjacent on the corner of main and summer?
all the people making the stupid comments about people opposed to bad parking lots and bike rack huggers are the same that would have supported the HSBC center, main place mall, convention center, etc etc etc. According to them, any development, as long as its happening is good development. Theres no reason to challenge a plan and encourage a developer to do it better.
Those attitudes are why we have rt. 33, UB in Amherst, Skyway, the Convention Center, etc... Fortunately, I think people are far better educated about urban design now, but there are still a lot of numbskulls out there who don't get the idea and continue to encourage repetition of past mistakes.
As for this project, I haven't seen the parking plan. There are good ways to do parking, I hope that this will be one (although Paladino's track record is not encouraging...)
Losing this particular building will not mar the street scape. Bringing viability to vacant buildings (especially medical) requires parking, plain and simple. Dress it up, make it nice, disguise it as best you are able, but parking is a need, not a want, for many businesses.
Across the street at Main and High HSBC occupies a corner building with its own parking lot. Without that lot, that bank would not be there. Across the street at Main and North the Anchor bar, and then Wendy's occupy developments featuring sizable dedicated parking lots. Neither would experience the business levels they do without parking. They need parking. Have you ever counted the empty spaces in Anchor Bar's lot during prime time? Not many.
Some fear a loss of character if we lose this particular shell. Sorry, I don't agree. There is simply no way to tenant buildings such as this without adequate parking. The rehab of those three buildings will have a much stronger impact on the neighborhood than will the loss of the one building. Though many on BRO despise the automobile, America in general is still in love with it. Buffalonians, like most Americans, drive wherever they are able. Businesses must cater to that desire or face the defection of their business to those places more accommodating to the automobile.
Here we lose one nondescript building (which does not at present contribute beneficially to the street scape) as the price for renovation and occupancy of three more important adjacent buildings. I'm fine with that bargain.
1. "To expect or demand urban development for all of the CoB is silly" - WOW - candidate for post of the year.
2. urban fabric is not only created when there is critical mass. you don't believe there is urban fabric on Elmwood, because the buildings aren't tall? Is there no urban fabric in european cities? cause they don't have as much critical mass with skyscrapers like Manhattan?
3. How do you expect to create a critical mass by tearing down buildings? Are you suggesting that it will never happen, therefore we will never have an urban fabric, and we should just resign ourselves to becoming a sprawling suburb because we can never expect developers to build a critical mass and create urban fabric?
4. Finally I have yet to critique this particular building because I have not yet seen the plan. If I saw the plan and felt that it was not the best option for parking, I would be happy to suggest better alternatives. I don't even know yet if this is a poor parking plan? My comments have been to the attitude that anyone who opposes parking is ridiculous and that anyone who owns a building should be able to do whatever they want. Thanks for reading.
I know that one-story building. It is documented that President McKinley visited it. Because of its historic signficance, it must be saved!
And isn't this right near the Famous Anchor Bar? Imangine how exciting it would be for visitor's to this area if we can RE-VIBE this section of Main Street to offer MORE than just a wing joint.
Perhaps knocking down this building is the easy way to redevelop these properties, but it's not the only way. Developers, like Paladino will take the easy way out, unless someone makes them do things differently. Kaleida should brush-up on the Hippocratic oath: "first, do no harm".
PS.
Do we like the Medical Campus? Yes. Do we like it when it destroys existing buildings and the streetscape?
No!
People are always so afraid that if we encourage better development, the companies will just leave. Thats hogwash, how many companies have left the area because they were forced to do better design??? And guess what, Kaleida views this project as a necessity. They have a ton of money and aren't going anywhere. Not only that, they have a lot of public money on their rolls. There is no reason that they shouldn't' be encouraged to do the best parking plan possible.
This only sends a message that if you want parking in order to locate here, then the city will gladly tear down buildings to make a surface parking lot for you. Last I checked, this was a CITY not a suburb. So why do we continue to make the city such a car friendly place when it should be a Pedestrian Friendly enviroment.
So if Kaleida purchased the entire northern section of downtown and wanted to demo it for a few 1 story business parks and parking you'd be all for it?? Because they own it or lease it, they can do whatever they want?
Once again, thats exactly what happened with Main Place, HSBC center, the Larkin Admin building, etc....
Congratulations on continuing to encourage Buffalo to support the same type of development that has happened for the past 40 years.
you killed the casino now let's see if u obstructionists can chase away Kaleida! Bye bye
What in the world does this have to do with whether its downtown or not??? Just because downtown is the center, why should other neighborhoods be urban?
Um, I don't live downtown, but I want my neighborhood to be urban. Just because its not downtown, doesn't mean it can't be urban. Thats ridiculous. So.. Elmwood property owners should have every right to buy the building next door and tear it down for a parking lot, because they're not downtown? What in the world does this have to do with it not being right downtown? If its not downtown, is it a suburb? Should it be developed as such? I really don't get that.
Main Street in East Aurora is not downtown. Its perfectly acceptable to tear down buildings for surface lots there?
Yes, I've read every comment.
Sorry, but didn't we once think that our Theatre District (Main Street) was a lost cause many years ago? Back then we had surface lots and now we only have a very tiny one hidden by the train tunnel and guess what, The block now looks a hell of alot better than it did 20 years ago and it's NOT Over-run by surface lots. HMMMM....now look at this section of Main Street, full of potentional and already we want to tear buildings for parking lots instead of having a better development plan for this neighborhood to have parking hidden and introduce a vibrant street scape instead.
manski --- please be more careful about what you think is funny and what you think is sarcastic (because you clearly didnt do a good job). and there is no reason to post such entries just to cause confusion. oddly enough, minus the part about dialysis patients on bicycles, your idea was a good one. too bad you are too short-sighted to see that.
Let me get this straight, Tearing down an old house on Elmwood for parking = BAD....Tearing a one story building on Main Street for parking= Good.......What's the difference???? So what if this area isn't as busy as Elmwood, who knows, we can keep these buildings up and USE them all and have a good planning where first floor activitiy is being encouraged along Main St. this location can be just as vibrant. But wait, most of you want more surface parking, so forget the vibrant street scape here.
its not about the building. I think people would have no problem seeing it demolished if it was in lieu of a higher use. but the parcel will be downgraded to parking. Its also about people knowing Carl Paladino's track record for horrible urban design... See W. Tupper St.
We don't need more parking... what we need is better management of what we already have
ok coming late into this conversation but I think there would be a deal to be made with existing owners on that street for parking. Granted the single story buildings isn't fantastic there is a TON of parking on that side and directly across the street on the 5 blocks of demolished buildings. Also Check out the block of buildings right across the street from all the parking lots on that block of N Pearl. Truly sad how badly parking can destroy the property values of an area especially when you walk ONE block south on N Pearl and see what a mostly intact street in this neighborhood looks like.
What about the delit space.. also empty for parking and after living 1 block from this building for 3 years I can say that I have NEVER EVER seem more than 10% of the current lots being utilized on this block. I repeat for this area and for downtown or anywhere. We don't need more parking... what we need is better management of what we already have
the demolition of these buildings will negate any good that kalieda is doing.
it continuously amazing me when people are happy to see buildings (four stories of wonderful bricks!) demolished for parking. FYI cars arent permanent! have some respect for history. i had no idea mckinley visited that site, but that is important, far more important than parking spaces.
main street's vitality needs linkage from ub south all the way to its termination at the water front. removing these buildings would add to the impossibility of that goal. we need street wall continuity.
and all the trigger-happy demos out there are right, those of us that hate to see these buildings go need to start being more proactive. what is unfortunate is that, we are the minority, with less $$$ too. but a proactive preservation organization or preservation minded development company needs to emerge from buffalo. i swear as soon as i move back, i will start it.
i will add to manski's comment: GUT IT AND USE IT!
Keep the front facade and build ramp parking behind it. Surface lots - well, for lack of a better term - suck. A couple years down the road they'll need more spaces, including handicapped. Get rid of lots and add ramps utilizing the facade of the old structures slated to be torn down. Keeps the street view and becomes usable.
It took all of 6 posts to complain about future development on Main Street. If you don't like the way they are doing it, find a better way. They are making use of 2 buildings in an area that isn't actually bustling. This is progress.
I'm not in the "beggars can't be choosers" camp. That's about as cynical as you can get.
Who knows why Kaleida passed on using all that adjacent parking? Maybe they have thoughts about those lots as well. Whatever the case, it's not the best solution for the property but it is a solution, and one that beats the status quo, no?
WCP, this article has the kind of backstory about the location (e.g. the building being in Allentown, and part of the historic district) that I was frustrated not to find in the coverage in the Buffalo News when I read it first thing this morning. Thanks!
I know I spelled quit wrong for those who are already writing me back. I was a typo
The building coming down, or planned to come down, is the one-story building cut-off on the far left of the entry image.
TownLine
Are you reading what other people are posting?
This is NOT downtown! If this was downtown, you would be right in my opinion. This is in Allentown.
Yes, there are MANY mistakes in taking buildings down for parking in the downtown core. Doubt anyone could find a good argument as to why that was the right move.
Comparing this building to what was taken down..to compare to the Larkin is silly. If they were going to take down the structures that are going to be used, you would once again have something.
there is nothing wrong with parking. Its all about the placement of it.
what I don't think many people are realizing from the picture and this article is that 1008 Main is that little green building just barely in the picture.. might help inform people to whether or not it is worth saving. Just throwing it out there long after.
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