Mottalini: I did look up your website, especially yhr part with 39 photos of Buffalo entitled (in part) "Mistake by the lake." (See: www.mottalin.com ) Frankly, I was offended by 39 photos of outhouses. Perhaps I left my sense of humor somewhere????

I think knowing about our past accomplishments or failures adds to the desire and love of our city for many people. It gives people something more to grasp onto knowing that there is a rich and diverse history here. It gives them the drive and desire to fight for the betterment of change. If I didn't care about our history or place in Americana then i would have moved off to Atlanta or Houston where history is irrelevant for day to day life. But these projects and nuances that we find, discover more about and either learn to like or hate are what make Buffalo worth staying and fighting for. I think if we actually taught more of our children about our history and really promoted our culture heritage many might not flock off so easily. its easy to move when all you know is a Mall and Applebees.

I would also argue that Buffalo has done a lot of "just build it and worry later" developments. How many dozens of city blocks were destroyed over the years, how many neighborhoods were carved and cut up for railroads or highways only to fragment them so much the people lost hope for a good life. As steel said, the only difference between Toronto development and buffalo's was the money and businesses behind Toronto. We both destroyed our respective cities without proper thought and planning they had the economy to push through it (not because of it) and we didn't.

Rachacha,

Nobody is disparaging Geek. He decided to pack up and go because no one went along with his statement. I am not even sure what his point was since this story has nothing to do with woulda shoulda coulda as he put it. Perhaps he will come back and explain.

Like I said above, I think there is a lot to be learned by looking back on this kind of project. It is also interesting that something of this nature would not be entertained in our era of slightly more enlightened urbanism. That is why I drew the comparison between this mega project and the recent reuse of buildings that we we so recently ready to toss into the trash. If the renovation of the Web building and Larkin is nostalgia then sign me up. Personally I think those projects are a powerful form of looking to the future that has been long absent in Buffalo

BuffaloGeek, I think we should leave Toronto's waterfront out of this; Toronto is a massively subsidized city-state--such a different context. What Buffalo can take some comfort in is that it will probably not have the messy waterfront that Toronto has. When I lived there, it was just about the last place on anyone's mind to go.

Well Buffalo Geek has taken his toys and gone home. I guess we will just have to settle for having a converstation instead

Who is saying woulda coulda shoulda?

How does that saying go? "Those who forget history are doomed to repeat it"

Anyway I think it is interesting to look at defunct ultra grand schemes like this. You can learn a lot about where society is now by looking at what went before.

I agree with Steel on this. No one is saying we should have done this but when anyone sees the shoreline apartments you can't help but notice how different they are from anything else in the city. Why do they look like that? Where did such a design come from. Well. knowing the history of them puts them into a nice context from which to observe the present and see how people were thinking.

This isn't about coulda shoulda woulda but adding detail and flavor to an architectural feature that most write off as ghetto.

There is also something to say for the city to invite a world renowned architect planner to come in and say.. What do you think we could do to reverse our problems and then actually start to implement it! A fare stretch from looking back in hopeful wonderment like many seem to think is what is holding back the city.

Geek,

The massive availability of money in Toronto is the difference. To believe otherwise is naive.

As far as everything else goes I think we are agreeing for the most part , just in different words or maybe not. I suspect that you would have sided with those advocating that Web be torn down 5 years ago or so.

There's no such thing as "dismissing" the past, whether we're talking about the mistakes or the successes. History matters. The past informs the present and the future. Each day is not some discrete unit of time. Americans tend to have a unique disdain for history, which is the reason we keep stepping in the same pile of dog shit again and again.

Quiz Kid Donnie Smith says "We may be through with the past... but the past is not through with us!"

Actually, I believe it is NEVER too late. Look at what Baltimore did with their 'Inner Harbor' over the past ten years. It was nothing but dive bars, crab shacks, winos and...well, the assorted miscreants found on most industrial waterfronts. All it took was a few with vision and tenacity to turn it into a destination. The same with Fells Point. Look what has happened to Chippewa Street (much to my personal chagrin)! That can be done again, albeit hopefully as a more adult/family friendly place. Sure, Buffalo is notorious for eating its own. So, stop it. Put down the beer and pick up the pencil. Find the folks that MAKE THINGS HAPPEN, not just talking about them. They are out there.

First line says it all.... the 1960s and 40+ years later, nothing. No one plans better and implements worse than WNY. And this site shows you why, everyone complains about other people's ideas and plans, thereby klilling anything that comes across the table.

Forget talking Proud. Death by NUMBYism. That should be Buffalo's slogan.

You guys are absolutely right, Buffalonians don't spend the majority of their time wondering what would have been if...things weren't built the way they were, why things weren't built at all, what things should have been built, what things could have been built if we thought differently, how we could be so much better off if, if, if, if...we could just undo the mistakes of the past.

Our inability to look forward and instead focus on recreating the past, celebrating the past, and pining for a time when we were economically and culturally relevant has absolutely no bearing on our inability to move forward.

Sorry for contributing an opinion, I'll just stick to the script from now on.

1. History is important. "Things that happened 30-100 years ago" play a huge role in determining how things are today, and how they will be tomorrow.

2. The idea that "noone plans better" than WNY is nuts. We're the poster child for bad planning.

I'll boil it down to a very base level. We spend more time worrying about what's already happened and why it happened than what could happen. It's very simple and RaChaCha is right on, I think we are often blinded by nostalgia and debating the battles and decisions of the past over and over. It limits discussion about how to deal with existing problems and move forward.

If you don't see that as a problem, I don't know what to tell you.

Illustrative anecdote time: I was sitting along the waterfront in Toronto a few weeks ago (you know, the one that has an elevated/bermed highway and a boulevard behind it which strangles waterfront development in Toronto) and was wearing a Buffalo shirt. I struck up a conversation with a guy who asked me if I was from Buffalo and we got to talking about Buffalo's lack of development as compared to TO.

His supposition was that we spent more time worrying about things that hold us back then our possibilities than just about any city he has ever been to. For instance, in Toronto, they didn't worry about the elevated Gardiner, they just built parks and attractions and people came. Spending decades arguing about whether or not to take down the Gardiner or significantly re-route it would have precluded progress. In essence, play the hand you're dealt, stop wanting to get better cards. Now, they have critical mass along their waterfront and decisions can be made to accommodate the growth curve, which is how it should happen.

Also, Buffalo Homecoming is not about reversing the mistakes of the past, in fact, it's about dismissing them and owning our own future.

Anyone would be doing that if they had been benched for 40 years.

Here is what has been proposed for the Shoreline make-over. These are a couple years old, but I haven't seen anything more recent. Foit Albert is the Architect:

Does any city in America spend more time looking backwards than Buffalo? Good lord, we are the f'n capital of "woulda, coulda, shoulda"

Steel, that's what holds us back, not your supposition that we lack self esteem or a belief in getting "big things" done. It's our obscene obsession with things that happened 30-100 years ago.

Roger Scruton has written an elegant and thoughtful article in CityJournal on Leon Krier that speaks to this topic. I strongly recommend reading it if you care about the look and feel of urban life. Scruton mentions Buffalo and the damage that modernism has inflicted on the city. The article persuasively underlines the reasons for embracing harmony and historical context in the scale, materials, and forms of our new urban buildings. http://www.city-journal.org/2008/18_2_urb-leon_krier.html

omg yikes is right

Holy shnikees, there is a picture of Buffalo on Yahoo.com without gray skies and snow! Amazing, just f***ing amazing!

What I found most striking about the marina portion of Rudolph's master plan is that it is utterly cut off from the rest of the city - first by the 190, and (perhaps as a 'second line of defense'?) by a wide band of surface parking - ugggh.

As to Shoreline Apartments, I once thought I was 'supposed to' like them because they were designed by a famous architect. But the more I've seen of them, the less I like. And over time I've had the chance to see them every which way - from Niagara Street, from the river side, from the observation deck at City Hall, and even braving a walk through the grounds (despite Marilyn Rogers' warnings from the April 2006 BRO article about crime there). In addition to the architectural monoculture, they serve as an additional barrier (the 190 being another) between the West Village (and parts of downtown) and the river. And by truncating the street grid - cutting off West Village and downtown streets at Niagara - and eliminating blocks of streetfront retail on Niagara, they have probably impacted Niagara Street's viability as a commercial strip in that area.

In my view it would be a benefit to substantially redevelop this area to restore Niagara Street's commercial strip (both sides) throughout, to reconnect streets like Mohawk, Huron, and...um...the one Chippewa turns into, and use architectural design more in keeping with the lower west side/West Village areas. One wouldn't have to go far to find better examples - the Rabin Terrace and Cary Street houses are personal favs, and only a block away.

Steel, not so fast...Geek is a fine Buffalonian and I'm frankly interested in understanding his perspective.

Geek, there's no question about your credentials as being future-oriented: in addition to investing in community dialog with your blog, you've been one of the key organizers of Buffalo Old Home Week (now Buffalo Homecoming - coming up this month) and are raising a family in Buffalo. But aren't you also a preservationist (I believe in a BRO article last year you were photographed driving the Max Factual Express for Campaign For Greater Buffalo)--? Doesn't that imply some interest in/effort on behalf of protecting the past--? And in some sense, isn't Buffalo Homecoming at least implicitly about reversing the mistakes of the past (people having left Buffalo)--? And if in that context, why not in the planning and design context as well - reversing or cleaning up bad decisions of the past, where feasible and where a benefit could be shown--?

If the message is about not getting blinded by nostalgia, I'm all with you there. But in My Fair City and elsewhere projects are happening which do things like remove ill-conceived monolithic (or architecturally monoculture, like Shoreline Apartments) public housing complexes and replace them with mixed-use, appropriately styled and scaled developments, often with restored street grid. Another example is a developing trend toward removal/deconversion of grade-separated expressways from urban areas, or along waterfronts. Where projects like that can be shown feasible and of long-term benefit - and not simply an exercise in nostalgic pique over a bad decision from the past - I'm all for them, because I think they make communities like ours better.

Wouldn't you agree - or am I perhaps missing the crux of the discussion--?

I'd love to see those pics. I agree that Shoreline is a fairly interesting complex from an architectural perspective. When I was a kid they never seemed like low income housing. I even remember asking my parents why we couldn't live there...close to the water and they just laughed at me....

Great post. Thanks.

PaulBuffalo

Since WWII International and national architects that have worked in WNY have been:

Sasrinen (father and son) Bunshaft Yamasaki Weese SOM Mori Harrison Abromovitz Paul Rudolph Davis Brody Kohn Pederson Fox Philip Johnson Edward D Stone

Not a long list but you have to remember that not much of anything has been built in Buffalo compared to many other places

reminds me of the winning proposal from Uniland/ Lakefront LLC for the outer harbor. yikes.

http://www.yahoo.com/

My apologies to Mottalini! School bus stops? Wow. My urban life precluded me from identifying what appear to be rural icons. My inability to recognize them as such proves that I am not as culturally literate as I thought. Great photos!

well something got built - and it's on yahoo.com...if you're quick.