Yay! a parking ramp...er...
To bad none of our politicians or city goverment agencies are strong enough to stand up and make a decision. It's hard when both of these developers own the same politicians. They both give to the same campaigns. Do you want to upset Paladino or Hotung? Either way, one of them will make sure you are out of office next election season.
I wonder how many jobs an 11 story office building would create, or how much tax revenue it would add.
Can one of our politicians stand up and solve this??? It's why we elected you.
The now 7 story building would not create any jobs. This is just a musical chairs building. A deck reshuffle if you prefer. Though the space vacated in older building will become available for startups or apartment conversions depending upon where the Court St tenants are coming from.
This is ridiculous.... Where is the back story about the main place mall parking garage... They are both shady f-ers. I would much rather see a building here with people....than cars.
another parking ramp? forrrreal? will there at least be $250,000 high end loft apartments on the top floor and mixed use retail at ground level?
A parking ramp on this site would be a travesty. The city should tell Hotung that they accept his offer of payment but that he will not be allowed to build a parking ramp there unless it is underground below a substantial building.
The is a parking lot right next to the empty lot ? Is that one always so full that we need another next to it?
Sally, not sure the guys doing the construction would agree that the new building doesn't create any jobs.
Im pretty sure I have seen office buildings with parking on the lower levels. How bout instead of bickering like little school girls put your heads together, be constructive, progressive, and comporomising...and build both. No way, can't do that here in Buffalo because the government is too weak and the developers can't see past their own inflated egos. God forbid these two go for the win win compromise...if they did that then neither of them can stand on the roof of his new building and [deleted] at other one in triumph!
BUILD BOTH
I think the best bet would to let both of these developers fight over this land and do nothing with it, while other pro-business cities and states take more of our jobs and continue to prosper....
Both proposals are jokes. There is no need for a parking ramp the main place guy just doesnt want an office tower to compete with his buildings. and paladino's building is a thought less blob of crap. no first floor retail and just a generic box. why cant he add a few floors of high end apartments and then a floor or two of condos. we've seen that there is demand for both. especially in the middle of the down town business district. grrr
Why cant they build their parking ramp into the monotonous two story section of the Main Place "Mall". Perhaps add a bit more vertical element along Main Street? I agree an office building on that surface lot site is better than ramp and a ramp is better than a surface lot. Sad to see 11 go down to 7 but 7 still creates a much more significant street wall along Court and effectively fills the gap from Lafayette Square to Niagara Square.
Ironic that the newly proposed 7 story building will be shorter than the parking ramp next door - and even more ironic is the 8 story parking ramp next door to where they want to build....a parking ramp! I wish we could sell Stupid - the city would be flush with cash.
mjman: the back story on the parking ramp, as near as I can recall, is this: the city owns the ramp underneath the Main Place Mall. They don't own it forever, just for several more years (anyone have better details?). Hotung has offered to buy that from the city (actually, he'd only be buying it sooner than he'll get it anyway. Something like 10 or 12 years early. At some point, the ramp underneath the mall becomes property of the mall). Until then, Hotung has no control over the ramp underneath his building (though Paladino does, as he has some control at Buffalo Civic Auto Ramps). Hotung really does need parking to make his buildings competitive in the marketplace.
Believe it or not, parking is still a big deal for office tenants. Perhaps gasoline prices will diminish the need for parking spaces. Perhaps spurred by cost and carbon emissions we will develop usable mass transit, like we used to have in the 30s. But for the time being, parking for office tenants is a huge deal. I think Hotung feels he'd face a parking deficit even with the Main Place Mall ramp.
But I agree with others that a parking ramp on Court Street would be an architectural black eye for downtown. Court Street is the red carpet taking you from Main to City Hall. It is City Hall's entrance way. It should be faced with architectural gems, too bad about the convention center (but at least that's only a corner). We shouldn't build parking ramps on Main Street. We shouldn't build them on Court. And anywhere they are built, can't they be disguised better?
This site is certainly deserving of something better than a parking ramp. Carl's plan for the seven story office stucture is nothing to right home about either. Kick them both out and hope for something better to come along.
I cannot imagine how many different switches Paladino has in his bathroom. This is not a case of blockage but Paladino having one two many on the wall; who installed the fog machine? He looses tenants because the proposal was out classed by other developers and there is no shame in that. Seeing this much mistrust and lack of vision makes me want to get a masters in architecture and not art. thanks Paladino! may the force be with you and may all your projects glow as beautiful as the summer in buffalo. happy birthday!
Personally I think this is where they should put the 10 story statue of Jimmy Griffin holding a six pack instead of Niagara Square.
S statue of Jimmy Griffin??? Say it ain't so? Really...has that really been proposed???
oh good. more parking. in a city that's already 50% surface parking.
yay!
*rolls eyes*
of the two, good luck palladino, event hough I think he's a schmuck
Why does he have a right to sue Paladino? The city made a judgment call based on what they felt was a better project for the city. A parking ramp while needed (maybe, I have my doubts) has MANY other less central locations it could go. This is the very central heart of our downtown. It should be full of people not cars. The stretch between lafeyette court and city hall is one of the best urban vista's around and certainly does deserve more than just a parking garage.
Sorry you lost. get over it and move on to a different less important site.
I agree with the post way up towards the top...why not put the office building on top of the parking ramp...immediate prime parkign for the new tenants along with tenants of existing buildings...it would add to the height of the proposed building...obviously i am re-stating was has already been said but it really just seems like an obvious thing to do. i used to live in baltimore and remember seeing a couple buildings with this set up. then again i am not a developer and know nothing abuot developing so....
BenFranklin - I was referring to permanent jobs. I think the building would be a plus and fill in a gap tooth section of Court that along with the new Courthouse would give that general vicinity a more cohesive prosperous feel.
& or 11 floors just build a building and not a ramp. Please not parking at that vital location.
This site should have a "boutique" tower, maybe twenty stories, with 5,000 sq. ft. floorplates. Perfect for lawyers' offices. Parking should either be underground, away from Court St. and connected by a tunnel, or above ground, as part of another development and connected by skywalk or shuttle. In this era of soaring gas prices, these developers have to realize that people will be inconvenienced. How about zero parking and bringing in tennants that promote downtown living for their employees? Is that too far-fetched?
SleepL8 took the words right from my mouth. Why wouldn't Paladino and Hotung partner up, and build the office tower (can you really call 7 stories a tower?) on top of a multiple story parking ramp. Hotung owns and operates the ramp, Paladino, the tower. Or, if joint ownership and operation is an issue, then form a joint LLC to operate the tower/ramp as a separate entity. It seems like teamwork many years ago could have gotten this project completed awhile ago.
Also, back to only 7 stories for the office tower. Why would Paladino be so short sited, and only build enough space to attract current downtown tenants? Why not be a visionary, and build spec space, and attempt to attract tenants from not only the suburbs, but from other parts of the country (see Labatts). Double the 7 stories to 14, and make your leasing agents actually work beyond Buffalo for their commission..... Just a thought.
This story could only happen in Buffalo. I also simply do not see any benefit to having Patrick Hotung in Buffalo. The fact that he is a "titan" in Buffalo says so much.
Sally -
While I see where you are coming from, I think a deck reshuffle is a good thing. Take the Dulski as an example. The only reason that makeover is possible is because the building is 100% empty. If it was just a constant upgrade of the interior, we would still be looking at that awful exterior.
With new office space coming, the older office space can be upgraded or converted. A perfect example would be the Liberty Tower. This tower is PERFECT for residential units as the floorplan does not really work for the open space needed in 2008. As new space hits the market, conversions like this can happen.
It was nice to see that ramp built mid block with ground level store fronts (although yet to be ever used?) when the whole block was completely empty. Kind of makes one think there was some forward vision at the time quite possibly.
With the county court house nicely built to the street on the far end of the block it would be a shame to have a ramp up against court street. Book ended by Niagara and Lafayette Squares, this has the potential to be one of the best views in Buffalo. We won't, get into the nice building that was demoed for the convention center's never used entrance across the street.
Let Hotung buy it at his price, but let him know there will be no above ground parking and that a building of a minimum height must be going up within a certain time frame.
sonyactivision - Downtown Buffalo already has the boutique tower of which you speak. It is a block away and sits empty - it's called the Tishman Building.
RonR - mypoint was that Court Street would not be new jobs but rather the space those tenants were vacating would likely be of a lower rent and those spaces could indeed lead to new jobs.
Sally-
I think you are missing the big picture. If court street is built, 225k sq feet of ADDITIONAL space will be created downtown. While the people moving into this space most likely will be already downtown, the space that they are leaving will become empty. The only way your view works is if for every 225k sq ft built, 225k is torn down. While Buffalo loved to tear sh*t down, this is not the case.
A building like this will create empty space somewhere else. THAT SPACE is the key. Those offices are either upgraded to remain competitive or they are leased to smaller companies on the cheap because they are older. As long as Buffalo can keep the buildings it has UP and not tear them down, eventually it will mean more workers or residents downtown.
Eventually landlords will lower rent to ensure that their property is occupied or they will make investments to make their properties attractive. Either way it is a gain at some point.
I don't see why Palidino doesn't consider putting Condos into this proposed Tower? Imangine being able to live right on Court Street with those amazing views!!!! Condos on the upper levels with offices on the lower and retail on the first floor, parking underground. With downtown being so hot right now, I'm sure he can get the spaces filled asap if he would just start building already.
or they don't invest, and those looking for class A space pick up and head to the 'burbs?
Or they let the building fall into disrepair until demo by neglect is necessary?
I still agreet on the idea of converting the Liberty Building into Living Spaces would be freakin awesom. The views alone would sell those spaces right away.
@sally, the Tishman Building is definitely in need of a big overhaul and a new identity. That said, there's still this lot and since it is vacant and in play, a beautiful Class A new build would really shine the area up. And there is such a thing as critical mass. If enough cool stuff happens Downtown, it will transform the perspectives of a lot of people. Right now, Amherst has the floor. Downtown needs to compete and you don't do that with vacant lots, or older Class C buildings.
RonR_ Did you read either one of my posts? What I said right from the start was that the new build will take existing tenants from current buildings. Those building will have space available at rents lower than the new building. Thus the old buildings may be cheap enough to entice startup or other tenants new to downtown. To put in terms you can understand a new building is good. Empty spac in old buildings is good because they can become incubator space for new and expanding businesses not yet ready for class A.
Thus my ,new building good, parking bad.
Yes sally..I did. The tone of your first post said nothing about new building good and parking bad.
You said "The now 7 story building would not create any jobs. This is just a musical chairs building. A deck reshuffle if you prefer." which multiple people corrected you on.
Why can't you readf the complete first post? Why is it so hard for you to have reading comprehension? Keep readingpast the first line and you will see that I then said and I doth quote myself
"Though the space vacated in older building will become available for startups or apartment conversions depending upon where the Court St tenants are coming from. "
Startups moving into older space get it yet? Those would be new jobs as the phrase startup would indicate - sheeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeesh!!!
sally, count me among the 'reading comprehension' deficient. I didn't get job creation from your first post at all (the opposite actually). An author needs to take some responsibliity that a reader will be able to understand what they have to say. Blaming RonR for not understanding your first post would be a bit like a chef chastising a diner for burning the soup.
Paladino is proposing to build it with his own money, right? So even if it ends up being musical chairs (not saying it will, but even if it does), so what? Free market at work, right?
Lawsuit issues are beyond what I can follow, but when deciding which is preferable I agree with comments that the office building is preferable to a parking ramp. More potential. I wouldn't support any public subsidy for the office building, however, but I don't think any is being asked for.
I don't follow how anyone can claim automatically that building a new Class A office building will create jobs (other than during construction). It might eventually host some jobs that wouldn't go somewhere else, or it might not. Unless tenants are lined up and we know they wouldn't go in existing space then it's unknown. If it moves jobs from other DT buildings and leaving some lower quality space open for startups, then startups might locate in that other space any time soon or they might not. Who knows?
Weren't the Tishman owners trying hard to market space to startups a few years ago without much success? There might be plenty of startup type space available in or near downtown already - or elsewhere in non-DT parts of the city which to be are equally important as DT. So it all remains to be seen what direct and indirect impact the new building would have. Why you're attacking each other over wording about something nobody can know is confusing too. Slow BR news week so far, I guess.
typo - 'be' should be 'me', in "which to be are equally important as DT"
In an economic recovery, production (in this case office space) in the period just before a rebound will be greater than demand. This is a normal pattern found in the business cycle. Those that create the short term surplus are counting on some 'shuffling', but an important component of the demand will be 'fresh', created by the supply. Where specificly this will come from is anyones guess. This is Say's law, sometimes thought to be the precursor to 'build it, and they will come', or 'supply creates it's own demand'. Rather than argue over the net tenancy of the aggregrate properties, we should be encouraged that capitalists with dollars to invest see new office space in Buffalo as a worthy investment.
I had a hard time following that, but I agree, benfranklin. Even Detroit has had new builds in an otherwise ossified downtown that was written off for dead long ago. Why? Because the market absorbs new space more quickly than older Class B and C buildings. To some, that makes no sense since rents are cheaper in pre-existing product. But rents alone are just one factor in the choice to locate in a building. However tall this building is, or how the parking for its tennants will be resolved, it does show faith in this part of the market and will surely look more appealing than a surface parking lot.
Anything is better than more parking for this site. Hotung can build a ramp anywhere he wants. There is a huge ramp rite next door to this location and their is one underneath his building!!! Paladino's project although smaller in scale than originally proposed will be a major improvement for this part of downtown especially since no major gov't subsidies are being sought. Where on the other hand look at the Main place malls deterioration over the years. I think the city should give Hotung the opportunity to purchase the underground ramp for 1$ in exchange tearing down deteriorated mall section of main place and replacing it with a reconnection of eagle street to ellicott and the development of new street level cafes and restaurants and retail and ramp and/or underground parking. More government aid would be offered if deemed appropriate and depending on the quality of the development I for one would have no problem dishing major bucks to Hotung for a project like this.
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