I hope this project moves forward with little interference. Also, what's wrong with some moorage for a cruise ship? Maybe not one the size of a Carnival Cruise liner, but check out the small cruisers on www.greatlakescruising.com. Smaller cruise ships on the Great Lakes. Why shouldn't Buffalo be a destination?

Following up on my above post about Washington Harbour, does anyone know what is slated for that first floor? It doesn't look like residential. It would be great to have a restaurant and a bar down there with patio seating and boat pull up.

awesome!....let's get it going!

Wow!

The views from these condos will be amazing.

I like this project a lot and hope every works out well. As for who's buying these condos...I know an empty-nest couple that moved to the waterfront from Clarence. They said if they knew they were going to enjoy the waterfront so much, they would've moved 15 years sooner.

iluvbflo-I think the belief is if there is new housing available in Buffalo, many empty-nesters and people who want to downsize will pay these prices. I was skeptical, but after speaking to some of my parent's friends in this position, I changed my mind. Most had wanted to stay in the city, but did not want an old condo or apartment and ended up in the suburbs and aren't that happy. The prices are similar but they have to drive everywhere, there are too many applebees, etc. In the larger picture, there aren't that many condos in the city that offer what many retirees want.

People who pay premium dollars to live on the waterfront usually want to be able to see the water - so I think the glass is a deliberate architectural style to promote that idea. Why people are so anti-glass and steel for buildings in Buffalo is perplexing. Personally, I like modern architecture and think it will improve Buffalo's image to have a few old factories converted to more modern looking buildings. It gives the impression of progress, that this is a place to invest in for the future and not a sinking ship.

Only in Buffalo will people complain about a derelict building being turned into high end water front housing. This is good news. NO DOUBT ABOUT IT! When was the last time any substantial ammount of money invested into our outter harbor?

IF this makes it past renderings people will buy them. The view to the south has a lot to be desired but the views of the sunsets and access to the water for boaters has huge appeal. For all of you who think they won't be sold at the asking prices can you tell me how many $300k plus waterfront condos are empty in Buffalo? Not many. I hope this does get done and I hope it acts as a catalyst for the development of the property between itself and the inner harbor.

Done right this could be like Washington Harbour in DC, there they have a mix of high-end condos, shops, and restaurants right on the Waterfront, in an area of DC (Georgetown) that used to be industrial (photo below).

With an aging population (kids out of public school, downsizing, reducing drive time, don't want yard work), you can see how this plan would get past the bean counters. That being said, have to agree with some of the comments about wind off the lake. Mid January might not be the time to invite family from Atlanta to show them the new diggs.

I don't think about this as spurring outer harbor development... this is outer harbor development. There is more to do but we should celebrate this for what it is. Development on our waterfront that many people have died holding their breath for.

The designs look great! I cant wait to see this project unfold! I think the need for housing in downtown is going to skyrocket! Buffalo is becoming a very important place to upstate New York! Remember there is the UB 2020 project which is projected to bring about 8,000 new people to Buffalo! Housing will be needed!

Oh oh Buffalo heres another GREAT development so bring on all the negative comments and complaints on how they shouldnt touch such a beautiful old building because your great great great grand dad worked there or because its part of the Buffalo old building bergade! Also ....THE PRICE RANGE IS PERFECT!!! HIGH PRICES= HIGH CLASS PEOPLE SO IT WILL BE A HIGH CLASS PART OF TOWN WHICH BUFFALO NEEDS! So have fun tree huggers of Buffalo destroying this one.

i love the people who ask "who can afford this blah blah blah" i've said this before, these developers a not stupid. they did not become millionares by luck. they know what they are doing. if they didnt think there was a market for these $300K plus condos they wouldnt be investing tens of millions of dollars into these projects. durrrr. this should be a big morale boost for the hamburg and orchard park commuters to downtown via rt. 5

I can't wait to see the building transformed. My wife and I go down there frequently and enjoy all the changes happening. I think it will be a big improvement to the Outer Harbor and will definetly make Buffalo a more appealing place to live. I believe that people genuinely want to move to our area and there is money in western new york but most of it resides in Orchard Park, Clarence and Amherst. I think it would be great to have them move back to the city along with new residents.

BTW - if you haven't checked out the new bike path along the lake that they are working on that goes most of the way down the the Coast Guard Station right along the lake, it is worth checking out. I think it will be amazing when it is all finished!

This place will sell out in no time, the views alone will sell it. Plus, it is the only actual waterfront property being built should it not fall through. Water Front Village new builds are pretty much all in the background near the expressway. With this project and the casino, our waterfront views from the lake will rock!

the_trooper -

I agree 100% about the people complaining. You will see a lot of that. Unfortunately our area has a lot pessimists and non-forward thinkers that would rather try to bring down the people that are trying to improve the area rather than encourage the progress.

I personally love all the changes happening to the area!

I love the rendering with the sun beaming in and a sailboat in the foreground. Rendings are so funny sometimes.

Great project.

Does this mean the anti-abortion monument is not going to be built?!?!?!?! How sad. Great project! And flyguy, regarding your astonishment of all the deep pockets in WNY...how much do you think peopel are paying for all those fancy new homes out in Clarence, Amherst, Williamsville, Orchard Park, Hamburg...ect. ect...I think you get the point...

two floors will be added? won't this disrupt the migratory path of the area's waterfowl?

Whaaa! But this means 150 empty McMansions elsewhere.....Whaaa!

Great news this project is just what this region needs. I think the demand is absolutely there and this pioneering development may eventually lead to more development in this underutilized area. I love the renderings!

I wish they had hired HHL to do this.

The city was started by laying out streets and parcels and selling them. The outer harbour should be no different. It sucks that elevated route 5 will not allow much of a grid to be laid, but we seem to have lost that battle to the NYSDOT.

The next import issue will surface parking. An overlay distric or something needs to be done to preclude massive surface lots for each separate development. If this is allowed we will have nothing more than Transit Rd but along the water. The elevated highway next to here pry works to help the chances of it. Parking needs to be behind structures or planned out as munipal lots mid blocks allowing the structures to be placed up againts the streets, creating an environment where people will want to walk and explore and stick around instead of just driving in and out of their sole destination. We have enough of those areas.

Congrats on this investment. It could make a great book end to the outer harbor.

PS. If the elevated rt5 stays, I feel so does the skyway. What sense is there in having a 1.5mi elevated expressway along the water only to have it meet up with a lift bridge etc? Welcome to Buffalo NY, where a limited access freeway is never more than a football field's length away from our shore line. :)

tonym- you are so sensitive

Why do so many architectural projects in buffalo go to lousy out of state firms? Why would you ever hire the firm that did that hideous casino in Niagara Falls? It is not a matter of being against modern architecture, it is the fact that this design is totally inappropriate to the existing building. It is a hack version of 1980s postmodernism. When I was in graduate school for architecture, we had a professor remind us that we were forever banned from using a "Nautical Motif." This rendering shows why that is the case. Glass is fine, old buildings are great, but this is a disaster. Look at the type of housing being built elsewhere (even the waterfront condos in Toronto are head and shoulders above this) and ask if this is up to par. Look at renovated factories in New York, Chicago and San Francisco and ask why Buffalo doesn't deserve the same amount of care.

Sally...planning is not a bad thing neither is preservation and they are not interchangeable... related maybe but they are not the same thing. But i think u may agree that it is the balance between these forces that creates the greater good. Yes lawsuits can seem rather frivolous at times but the truth is if their was a well thought out plan for the area and these projects were well thought out and in compliance with the vision outlined for the area along with a generous amount of public input most of these lawsuits in would never have to be filed in the first place. The well thought out plans for this project are not the norm and this is exactly where planning fits in to make sure past mistakes ie. the convention center, 198, and other blunders are not repeated again. Tear me apart and give me one star i dont care im just trying to state my opinion.

https://www.nysdot.gov/portal/page/portal/regional-offices/region5/project-repository/stcboh/study_area.html

link to the DOT outer harbor map

MJworthington...Thanks for the nysdot website suggestion. I found everything I was looking for on there.

So the land shouldn't be zoned? That makes no sense at all. All city property is zoned. This land is already zoned. All this talk of NIMBY's also makes no sense. This land is not in anyone's backyard. The terms preservationist and NIMBY are not interchangeable.

The idea that plans should be created for this area is a good one. If it takes the form of a special overlay or a master plan either way it is a positive.

Apologies. Reading and typing caused me to interchange names.

AvaRouge McMansions... Nice - I just watched The End of Suburbia".... We are all screwed.... Netflix is great

All: One question

Will the Skyway removal (probably never happen, but) help or hinder this project?

icecreamsub, ha, i just said the same thing on skyscraperpage.com. i'm waiting for someone to be serous about that

I am pretty sure that Ava's comments were a parody of the fact that every time a project gets discussed a certain poster on here comments about how many vacant units will be created elsewhere...

metrobflo - your idea is a lot like the "Battery Park City" model that Senator Schumer proposed a few years back

There shouldn't be so much worry about if there will be buyers for these. As long as it's a private project and no taxpayer money, then it's only the developer's business to do market research and take whatever financial risks they want to take. If it turns out demand isn't there, then prices will drop, or the project will be scaled back, whatever. In order to get financing, they'll probably have to show some serious market studies. Potential buyer reaction to winds and temperatures around that spot is a potential risk. And that's not complaining, trooper, just stating reality. On the other hand, in July and August the breezes would feel great around there.

Ava - There's nothing wrong with causing empty McMansions elsewhere if this project happens and creates any. For one thing, if an abandoned McMansion starts on fire it won't quickly spread to occupied structures a few feet away as happened where the Danny Zak's couple was living. Obviously neighborhoods with McMansions aren't at risk from vacancy problems devastating much of the east side and worsening on the west side.

Now you people, get along. Each of us engage in debate around here quite a bit. What else would you call it when differing views are tossed back and forth?. All of our opinions matter equally, which is to say not much at all.

Occasional mocking and parody is fine. We should all be able to take 9and dish out right back) some harmless stuff like that without big blanket condemnations of anybody.

Of any place to put a lot of glass, wouldn't it be the condos overlooking the lake? Thats a no brainer!

Newsflash for you Sally. You are sanctimonious and self righteous. You believe that only your opinion matters. You do not engage in debate. I think you are completely wrong and I appreciate the fact that you were mocked.

metrobflo...There is no "outer harbor agency". The previous plans for the outer harbor(shooters to just north of where this project is being planned), was under NFTA control. Now the development of the land has been or will be turned over to the ECDHC. Since they have yet to release their plans for the inner harbor/canalside, I have no idea how far out they are from doing anything with the outer harbor(I guess they have never heard of multi-tasking??).

I do know that there is a bike path/walkway being constructed from the shooters site to the bell slip that they have been working on since last year. I know a lot of the work had to do with fortifying the shoreline along the entire length of the path. I have no idea when it will be completed. From land you can see the part along the bell slip being worked on, but the rest of the path is hard to see from the road.

I'm with Sally about the downsides of too much govt planning for this kind of thing. Where turnarounds do pop up around here it's often in some spot they're not paying attention to for a while.

I think flyguy's earlier points about whether the musical chairs are good or bad are more important when public dollars are involved such as for Paladino's waterfront condo tax breaks, or the 200 Delaware building.

But for private sector projects like Queen City Landing (which isn't asking for public breaks or subsidy as far as I know) and 33 Gates Circle (which definitely didn't ask for either), it should really just be a matter of them following laws and complying with reasonable building design issues. I don't think QC Landing could be legally stopped anyhow unless some extreme reason came up. The private sector is free to take a chance building as much residential as they want. Same with retail and I don't like politicians trying to spend on that either such as with Bass Pro, so yeah when public money is spent there's a difference.

I have a question...when the roads get redone between the coast guard station and tiftt st., does anyone know what it will look like traffic pattern wise? I have been down there once a week or so since they started work on this and for the life of me, cannot figure out what is going on. I see new ramps being constructed by both the skyway and further down beyond the small boat harbor.

I thought it was going to be a new two way parkway between the water and rt. 5/skway all the way from roughly tiftt st. to the coast guard station? Is this true?

When they did an article in the Buffalo news on this last month, they omitted any drawings of how traffic would flow when completed. I assum the zig zagging under the skyway(how it is now) is going away.

"Simply put, the outer harbor is the ONE PLACE in WNY where the outside forces have no power. An oasis if you will."

Well except the NYS DOT ;)

All those redeveloped Brownfields will be connected to the 190 by the Tift St arterial. the elevated Rt 5 gets duplicated. There should be no trucks in this section of waterfront and commercial traffic could be diverted from Rt5 over to tift off to the 190. Even if it wasn't, what is 1.5 miles at 35mph compared to 55mph? why we can't have at least 1.5 mis of waterfront without a limited access 55mph highway located within 300ft of it is beyond me. Imagine the nature perserve integrated into the outer harbor instead of hidden behind a 55mph wall. Why must any syengry which may happen down there reach a wall 30ft within 300ft of the water instead of conituing to expand out (along Ohio/Tift/ onto South Park etc)?

Texpat - News flash for you: all projects aren't the same.