good point bring up the executive headquarters, and the fact that the seneca nation is a local 'corporation' the larger they become the more people they will employ the larger their 'headquarters' gets, no one can possible be 100% for this project but it just seems like at this point it is better than nothing, especially in an area that could use another destination and some 'green space'/investment in infrastructure .
ALLFIT, prob the single best thing ever said on this blog...you sun it up perfectly, ass backwards
What about all those signs saying "WE SAID, NO CASINO." Now that's a laugh. Who's "WE"? Buffalo's answer to the moral majority? Well let me tell you something about the moral majority..."you ain't neither!"
Atwater --
You're right, more casino profit will stay in the area as compared to profits from the sorts of outside-based corporations you cite. That seems less like an argument in favor of the casino, and more like an argument in favor of supportig locally-owned businesses, however. And those non-local businesses presumably pay taxes, don't require ceding part of the city to another nation, are accountible to our laws, and don't involve the same kind of potential for a negative social impact.
Reflip --
I'd hope that the Senecas would use their 75% to improve conditions for their citizens. That would be great for them, but not great for Buffalo, as it would essentially mean redistributing wealth from the city to the reservation. It might be a different story if the casino would be based on bringing outside money into the area, in which case everybody would win, but I don't see that happening, and neither did the Senecas.
I don't think ts backers have ever called the casino a "silver bullet," but that's plainly the way people have been thinking about it. It hasn't been sold to the public as "just another building downtown that offers people something to do." Te idea has been not that it'll be just another amenity, but that it will spur all sorts of growth and new activity. Buffalo has had plenty of big projects with similar claims, and not many of them have panned out. We'll see, but history says we should be wary.
Colin,
I'm not asking to be combative, just because I'm curious:
1. Though the Seneca Nation is a sovereign nation, to what extent is that money truly "not staying local?" Aren't they more or a less a "local" sovereign nation? And what will they do with their 75% share? Isn't it the same as any large, national developer or retail chain? We'd all be happy if IKEA opened a downtown store, right? (sales tax, I know...but the profits go elsewhere.)
2. What makes this casino a "silver bullet mega-project?" Isn't this just a question of perception? For instance: "Hey everybody, this casino is going to single-handedly save downtown Buffalo!" Or, "There is going to be a casino in a section of downtown where there previously was nothing." The former makes it sound like a project that is doomed to crubmle under the weight of such high expectations. The latter is simply just another building downtown that offers people something to do.
Generally,
Since the casino appears to be happening, I am hoping it can help boost transit ridership. As for people just driving in, gambling and driving home - what do people do at Sabres games? If I had to make wild, speculative generalizations about the economic impact of HSBC arena, I'd say the majority of patrons drive in from outlying areas, park, leave their money and go home. It is designed to be "self-contained." BUT, the Metro is packed on game days as well - pretty much the only time it is so crowded, in fact. The casino as destination supports transit ridership in the same way that the Sabres do. The difference being that the casino will be open year-round. Granted you won't get 19,000 a day at the casino, but provided that this casino is a place that people actually want to go to AND they can take the train there, it could have a very positive impact on public transportation in Buffalo. In which case, I'll take it. Having the terminus of the Metro rail be a destination point supports the viability of TOD along Main Street, which should be a very positive thing (access to downtown entertainment, access to UB). The subway is a tremendous asset, not a detriment as some would have us believe.
Buffalo needs to utilize its assets - we all agree on that, right? Though a downtown casino may not be the perfect way to do this, if it's going to happen we have to find a way to make the most of it. Tying it to transit is the best way I can think to do so.
Hey Colin if a $24 million dollar payment is not a tax I don't know what is. BTW all of the profits will stay in WNY because this is where the Seneca's are located. I would much rather they have the money then that cesspool down in Albany. At least the Seneca's invest it back in the area. We have proof that the State would never do that. The unlike Ontario NY State spends less than one quarter of their take from the Niagara Region State Parks on those same parks. The rest gets sent into the General Fund and spent downstate. What on earth makes anyone think the situation would be any different at State run Casino's?
The sad fact is that the Seneca's are WNY'ers and NY State is controlled by and exists for the benefit of NYC
Nobody ever said the Casino will save Buffalo or is a siver bullet. It's only a piece of the puzzle to make downtown a Happening Place Again. It'll have more than slots and tables, But restaurants, a spa and more. And for the rumors of a indian run gas station, are you serious? Do you see and of those around any of the Niagara Falls casinos (boths sides of the border)??, thought so.
"nyc and MJ - what your arguments ignore is that casino gambling is something many want to do."
no where did I say this. All I say is make it fair or at least make fair comparisons. Let any developer develop anything they want in exchange for %25 of slot revenue. case closed, everyone is on the same playing field. Then you can make developer comparisons. EVERY Seneca cheerleader hear ignores my question. If they are such wonderful developers, please point to where on their reservations or on US soil they have done anything note worthy not funded by monopolistic Casino revenue.
The lottery? Its state run and non payouts go into our state budget. Same should be the case here. Like NF Ontario. Cable competition? Its called Satellite and internet. Phone Comp? Its called cable phone, internet phone, wireless.
Look at NF Ontario and look at NF USA. See how much is happening on the other side? See the spin off? I do. See it on our side? Wonder why? Casinos are gov't owned up there. All profits go back into making other projects/infrastructure or at least back into the gov't pool. Not just a small cut of one type of gaming while the rest goes to a sovereign nation. The playing field is level in NF Ontario and you can see the spin off.
I have no problem with Casino gaming. I have a problem with how we short cut our way to it and how we lose the maximum benefits that could have been had. Again, look at both sides of the Falls. Tell me what we have won? We look like shumks signing up for variable rate mortgages trying to keep up with our neighbors across the falls instead of taking the time to do it right.
Maybe in high school I would have had a chubby over a new tower. I've grown enough to look at the long run and return on benefits.
Want Issa to finish his tower? Offer him gaming rights on his own sovereign plot of land and all he has to do is give us %25 of his slot revenue. I bet it'll open shortly after the Seneca one and the competition will be welcome.
All -
Whether you like it or hate it, pro/against the casino, we can all agree on one thing: the city must benefit from this. Since the project will happen in either case, I think we should try to find ways to create more business and spin off more development. Instead of arguing how unfair it is that the Seneca Indians don't have to follow the rules, let's try to think of ways to prosper.
1. Implementing public transportation is a must. Being able to put light rail from HSBC here would create a one-stop shop for people looking to go out after a Sabres/Bandits game to someplace other than Chippewa. The area will have to be improved with increased foot traffic so entrepreneurs should take advantage of this.
2. Marketing. If you are in the business doing marketing advertisement, here is a great promo and attraction for the city. With development happening in the Basin/Inner Harbor area, keeping people in the lower Buffalo region should be easy. Outsource your skills to the Seneca Nation for flyers, brochures, websites, etc.
3. Construction - For those that can handle physical labor, here is a golden opportunity. Repairs to roads, houses, properties, new businesses, parking lots/ramps all need those willing to work. No further explanation is necessary.
4. Security/Protection Companies - Casinos tend to lead to higher security and any company in the business should look into this.
5. Hospitality Industries - Restaurants, bars, smaller motels, all could have a heyday here. Give tourist/customers an alternative to the buffet/casino food and have them spend their winnings here. Hopefully the same model that works in Niagara Falls, CA will work here whereby business creates business. New businesses feed off of the casinos' draw and create other businesses, which draw even more. By creating more business along the light rail to the casino it will keep it from being isolated and provide competition, which is ALWAYS a good thing.
There are many more opportunities for those that have the will and ambition. Let's use these as a springboard to starting some Buffalo owned companies before the Tony Romas, Chinese Buffets, and Dollar stores make their way over.
Colin: You ARE indeed hung up on semantics. 1)Taxes represent revenue to Albany, the Seneca Payment represents revenue to Albany. Walks like a duck is for all intents and practicle purposes a duck.
2) The Seneca's are WNY'er just as you and I are. They shop the same stores, access the same media outlets and drive the same roads as us. To claim otherwise speaks of your personal bias and not of the common sense reality of the situation. They are indeed included in our census figires. They are us.
3) You are remembering incorrectly. The Casino is run by an arm of the Seneca's to be HQ'ed in the cobblestone district and currently headquartered in NFNY. Any outside firm they use is no different than anyone else hiring and outside entity to work for them. Such as the way Philadelphia based Spectoacore was hired by NY State to run the Conference Center Niagara.
4) Because it is far better to send 18% of (slot only) profits to albany than it is to send 100% of ALL Casino profits to Albany.
Boz...The casino is in the heart of downtown? Seriously? Last time I looked the casino site was a vacant piece of property that is bordering the neighborhood projects on the outskirts of downtown. In addition, this site has been in the same state for as long as I can remember.
Stop making it seem like the casino is being plopped down right in Niagara Square. I swear this site is overrun by people who should have majored in drama.
Atlantic City has more jobs than people now. I was just there and the rebirth has spread off of the boardwalk and into the City. There is a MAJOR shopping district now running inland from the Boardwalk into the heart of the city for 7 blocks. 7 blocks of formerly run down slums. Now that off Boardwalk shopping district contains over 100 stores and restaurants inlcuding the likes of Gucci and Ruth's Chris. Nearby is a brand new Convention Center, brand new High School, brand new Hospital, brand new bus terminal and brand new library. None of this would have happened there without Casino gambling. Those that insist AC has not changed for the better, had better hope that those they are telling that lie to don't actually go there and look for themselves. I used to believe all of that AC is still dead stories from the anti Casino crowd - but then i went and looked for myself. Now I realize that they were just telling LIES to the uninformed.
Colin - I hope you can save everyone from themselves because the victims of the world need someone like you to keep them from making bad decisions. In my humble opinion, I prefer to see people save and spend responsibly, but it is their right to do what they want with their money and to spend it how they see fit. That may include spending part of their paycheck at the local bar, buying an expensive bottle of wine to drink with friends, shopping for new clothes or electronics that they don't need, betting on horses, gambling at the Casino, donating to their church, or any number of other past times. It is not my place to judge them and it is not my place to limit what they can do. I can see that you would prefer to take away all the temptation and choices that people have to spend their money, I am not sure why you feel you have this right to tell others what they can and cannot do with their own property.
Colin - the '7% of profits' figure you cite might be some average for how much stays local for casinos in general, but it sounds wrong for this casino. Seneca Gaming Corp owners (Seneca Nation) have a significant presence in WNY. Their headquarters executives and staff are in WNY too.
The percent of profits staying near here, if that matters to anyone, is probably much higher than 7%. It's also probably higher than what percent of profits stay around here when people spend their disposable income with some other companies I don't see you complaining about - Labatt (owned by a European co), Regal Movie Theaters (most ticket money goes to big evil movie studios), Spot Coffee (foreign-owned), Blockbuster Video, etc.
Those are all owned by out of town companies, so except for any employee profit sharing, 100% of profits from those go elsewhere. You agree much more percent of Seneca profits will stay here than profits of those businesses, right?
It is nice to see the casino project moving along, but Buffalo needs to think about the next step. Between the casino and the HSBC Arena is a big swath of mostly empty parking lots. The Cobblestone District is beginning to define itself, but this area could become a major entertainment draw with the right projects. Bring in some major attractions for families, some decent restaurants, maybe a couple of nicer bars, and I think the area would take off.
Instead of complaining about what sort of deal the Seneca's got, or who can get what done, we need to look at the opportunities for further development this project creates.
The rest of Buffalo could take a lesson from the Seneca tribe. They have a plan and they are executing on it. They have a goal and a sense of urgency that is lost on most other projects. If the Senecas owned the waterfront or the Aud then we would probably have a place to bring the family this summer instead of a dirt lot and chain link fences.
One thing about Buffalo Rising is that we pick and choose what to celebrate. You have a collective C-J over Bashar Issa doing nothing but hate anything that the Senecas do. You love commercial development downtown but hate the Bass Pro development. You love lofts and subsidies for the young bohemians but condemn inexpensive single family houses and subsidized living for the poor. You want thousands of people to move to Buffalo but you won't change anything to make it more hospitable and attractive. You condemn big box stores for their design and efficiency but then you hate the corner stores for their prices and the people who hang outside. Make up your minds people. What do you really want for Buffalo?
Seems like everyone forgets the fact that , in lieu of taxes, the Seneca Bufflo Creek will pay an estimated shared revenue of 24 million dollars to the state. From that Buffalo will get between 6 and 7 million annullay. Does anyone know of any other building in buffalo that pays that much in taxes taxes?
The Senecas paid $650,000 for a block of a street that was never used and never plowed, and went nowhere.. No one gave them anything.
Well it would appear as though this project is moving along nicely...and great job with that very true rant allfit- sums Buffalo up in a nutshell.
hamp is right that the casino won't have much economic spin-off to other businesses. That's not its purpose.
there are scores of books written about grain elevators and other industrial artifacts that people will travel hundreds of miles to see
Aren't there also scores of books about casinos and gambling? Don't some people travel 100s of miles for casinos too?
Boz - No, this isn't a big reason people will look at it as a backwater town. It hasn't even opened yet. Just as many people would laugh and roll their eyes about many things - grain elevators for example, or celebrating internet polls, or having a canal museum, or putting murals on blighted buildings. A casino won't affect a city's image either way. Some people like casinos, grain elevators, or blight murals - and some people don't. A city can't always please everyone. It's not unusual for people to enjoy mocking other people's interests. Casinos are no different that way.
I'm a Buffalonian and I want:
- The Casino - Stores, shops and restaurants in the Waterfront development - Reduction of the number corner stores beginning with getting rid of those that inhibit neighborhood revitalization - New development that includes a fresh, innovative style (it just compliments the old and adds to it IMHO) - Crackdown of developers who do NOT finish what they have promised - Elimination of the current Preservation Board substituting, instead, people who live in preservation districts
Ruby - Nobody should cry about either of those. Crying is for losers.
The same people who cry about Buffalo's loss of population cry about this project, which will employ thousands.
People should just acknowledge reality about population, without spin or whining.
nyc and MJ - what your arguments ignore is that casino gambling is something many want to do. Look at how many 1000s of customers the temporary casino is drawing. About the monopoly aspect, NY state isn't promising the Senecas that they'll never amend the state constitution to just legalize it. Maybe that will happen eventually and that would remove the monopoly. But meanwhile its better to allow a tribe casino than to not allow casino gambling at all. There's already many other gambling options - video slots all over the place, video poker, many different lotteries, real slot machines in Hamburg and Ft Erie, OTB, horse tracks, casinos in Ontario, many kinds of high stakes Internet gambling. At least the casino provides some jobs, and the people who responsibly enjoy gambling as entertainment have it available instead of going to Ontario.
Probably the casino will be close to a wash for economic impact. Some will gain with jobs, some will lose with irresponsible gambling. Impossible to predict or even analyze after the fact what the ratio is because nobody can know how many of the people would've spent the same money to gamble by all those other ways if the casino wasn't here.
the ontario side of the falls is apples to oranges to buddy, they can actually see the falls while the american side you can't see anything, before casinos the ontario side was always more developed.. the senecas are building a 'world class' golf course and it is still on the state tax rolls so there is one instance of something other than gambling.. the senecas don't have to go threw red tape? i spewed coffee all over my monitor reading that bs.. it took months and months for them to acquire fulton st or do you forget? or how about the multiple law suits against this project.. they had to do full environmental reviews also.. oh yea and we raped pilleged and murdered their people for about 300 years
ruby --
There are plenty of differences. One is that if I go to a local restaurant, in theory 100% of the profits will stay local, whereas only 7% of casino profits will stay local. Another is that going to a restaurant supports a tax-paying business, while going to the casino supports a tax-free business. Still another difference is that going to a restaurant supports a small business, while going to the casino supports the kind of silver bullet mega-project thinking which has hurt Buffalo for decades.
The Senacas are private developers, putting up a 333 million dollar property up on a piece of property that nobody else has looked at in decades. What is the problem here? Oh, I guess the jobs they will be offering are an issue. When you can show me even one fortune 500 company looking at Buffalo, my tune may change, untill then, accept it.
IamMe - You are entitled to your opinion. Some people feel the same way about drinking, smoking, eating at expensive restaurants, going to concerts, going to the theater, and donating to charities. We all spend our money on things that we enjoy, if you don't enjoy gambling then stay out of the Casinos.
Okay, heres the facts, the Senecas do lie, and will make money for themselves, but Buffalo will benefit. We will get some small amount of revenue from this thing. The county is going to give their share of the money to the city. build a casino - so what? you think they won't drive to the falls if we don't put one up? the hotel - well the senecas screwed us on this one... oh well. the land - no loss here, its a garbage piece of property downtown who really cares.. there is plenty of room downtown for development.
bottom line is people are going to the falls and ontario for this stuff, its too late to stop it. you can't build a wall around buffalo. so why not bring all the people to buffalo. Downtown is too dark at nite and scares off suburbanites. the senecas are going to build a big skyscraper in a city that is sorely hurting for big buildings...
So buffalo wins with jobs and some revenue, right now, we have neither one., all of that is going to Niagara county and Southern Ontario.
The same people who cry about Buffalo's loss of population cry about this project, which will employ thousands. Buffalo Creek will attract clientele who would never think of going downtown. And with the strong Canadian dollar, lots of Canadian gamblers who are tired of Niagara Falls will come. And while they're here they'll buy gas and shop at the Galleria (and perhaps one day they will shop in Buffalo). This is a big boost for the economy.
PS - I will visit Buffalo Creek but will not put two cents into a slot machine. Gambling is for suckers.
GREAT SIGHT, the Senecas are what the BSC group (Issa's group) is NOT. The Senecas get thungs done and know how to COMPLETE A PROJECT. This will be a wonderfull addition to the city skyline and the Buffalo economy. Casine money (14 million dollars) from the NF casino just went towards the new construction for the NF airport terminal. The senecas will help WNY greatly in the years to come. I only wish they had more land (like the waterfront) so more can be accomplished in my lifetime.
Hamp: Well said. The Seneca's do not have to follow the same onerous rules as other devlopers and they are successful. Perhaps we should learn from this and level the playing field by making it as easy for private developers as we do for the Sneca's. Make Buffalo as attractive to local and national developers as it s for the Seneca's and we will be living in a boom town. hey can start by getting rid of the rediculous historic preservation board!
Some of you people are just plain retarded. No body comes to your city because you don't have anything and then you bitch about any sort of development that takes place.
WAAA - and BOOO frickin hooo about the history swept under the rug? My God people you can;t save everything. You people sound like my old uncle who won't replace his broken 40 year old dishwasher because his mother(my grandmother) put that in and he is afraid of change.
Move into the 21st century people - you have Toronto knocking down the door to take the Bills....WHY? Because they choose to grow and change and be vibrant..........
You preservationalists make me ill.
Build the Casino. Stop the lawsuit. What do we want a partially finished casino complex left behind to rust away? Or a completed project left vacant as soon as its built? Another black eye for the City? When has the city seen such large scale construction downtown? Back in the late 80's with Fountain Plaza? The Casino wont save the city and I dont think that any one project will do that and the expectation should not be for that. Rather the Casino in combination with many other developments underway, planned, or in the future yet shall create a complete cohesive district of attractions that do not cater to just one person but rather a diversity of people with different interests. In this we dont put all our eggs in one basket.
If the Senecas were paying taxes and competing on a level playing field with every other business, even though I don't like the project, I'd say go for it. But this project plays under its own rules, turns part of downtown into a sovereign foreign nation and will potentially put other places out of business. How many acts that used to perform at Shea's, Artpark, and the Tralf now play at the Seneca Niagara casino?
I always hope for the best for Buffalo, but I think this project will hurt more than help.
Not everyone may be interested in grain mills, but plenty of us are. That's why Minneapolis has created a whole mill district that incorporates existing silos. That's why there are scores of books written about grain elevators and other industrial artifacts that people will travel hundreds of miles to see. It's too bad that more people don't appreciate our industrial heritage. For many of us this is how our parents and grandparents made a living.
By designing the new casino as an island, the Seneca's have helped ensure that there will be no economic spin off. Customers will park, gamble, eat and drive back home. This is an intentional decision. If the Seneca's had to adhere to zoning, or a neighorhood plan, this situation could have been mitigated so that the entire Cobblestone District benefited from the casino. They are proceeding with zero citizen input.
Remember what the Seneca President said when asked why they were'nt saving the grain siilos: "Because we don't have to". Not very democratic, is it? And not a very good model for Buffalo development.
allfit - best description of buffalo townies ive read in years....people want their cake and eat it too...they only want development if it fits a certain model, or doesnt involve knocking down a building from 1850 that harriet tubman passed by...the rest of the world is developing and buffalo is lagging behind...if you want jobs for you, your kids, and their kids, embrace development!
I said if you are going to give one group the deal, offer it to others. I'd much rather all profits go to the state like up in ON or like the lottery.
I knew the golf coarse would come up, but that is being made possible by the revenues from the casino. But at least it is on the tax rolls. Any Hotels etc should also be on the tax rolls. Purchasing a street is red tape? That is somewhat of a stretch. Shouldn't the city have been making sure it got the most money for the street and some insurances that the casino would be better for the city and not just the state general fund?
I guess that Clifton Hill and the vacant Maple Leaf Village Mall = more than our vacant Rainbow Mall pre-casinos. Still nothing to write home about. The transformation across the falls after the gov't owned casinos has been staggering. But to use it as an example to sell us on our Indian casino ones is false solicitation
If we are to give a sovereign nation a casino monopoly in the middle of our city, shouldn't we at least demand that the facility is integrated into the streets around it so we can make some spin off development possible? Why should we allow a typical casino fortress and then say the onus is on others to work with it for spin off development?
What other building gives the city 6 million? What other building takes in as much money and profit as the casino? And how much does that slot revenue start to become a smaller and smaller piece of the pie as other subsidized facilities are added to the site? (hotels, concert venues, etc)
I am for a casino. I am for entertainment options. But I am also for level playing field for others who are not allowed to play the casino game (hotels, restaurants, concert venues, and what ever else they decide to build) and obtaining a facility that will facilitate spin off development.
allfit- you are a baller. i couldnt have said it better myself. here we have a company with capital, will, and ambition who wont sit on a parking lot for ten years with a building planned with a crayon on a napkin. buffalo developers could take a few notes here
Bravo Seneca Nation! You say you are gonna do something and you do it! You cut through all the bureaucratic red tape and watch your projects from start to finish. Every other company and developer should be taking notes. All of you anti-development libs against this project can stay home when it's finally up. Having another reason to go to Buffalo, NY is only a good thing, and should help Buffalo Police with job security. I will be the first one to open a pawn shop/dollar store right outside!
NYC - the truth is that the Senecas are doing a better job at developing Buffalo than the private developers. The risks are the same because very few of the private developers do any work without government incentives and preservation tax credits in their pockets. The development game is just that, a game and right now the Senecas are winning. I do realize that the Senecas are building a Casino, what does that have to do with it? The State of New York has a monopoly on the lotteries, the phone company has a protected monopoly on our phone lines, Time Warner has a monopoly on our local cable service. All of these businesses are subsidized by the state and our taxes. So what is the difference with the Senecas? Oh yes, I forgot, people like you don't like Casinos and you don't like Native Americans getting their share. Just keep the Natives on the reservations and everything will be ok, is that it? It is ok for 'them' to run their little gas stations because they are out of sight and mind. It is ok until they take a stab at the businesses that the whites own, is that it? Everything is alright until they come in and challenge the outdated Hyatt for business. That is the truth that hurts for you. Call it what you want, but I think that you are both a racist against the Native Americans who have rights to sovereign territories that the whites do not. After-all it was Seneca land to begin with, wasn't it? Only difference is that the Senecas aren't in to artificial boundaries and political lines, that is a creation of the whites.
The Senecas are making progress where others have failed. They are taking a horrible plot of land that no one wanted and turning it into something that will bring in visitors. What is wrong with that except that you aren't in control of it? Does that make sense to you, Mr NYC?
Yes.....take notes developers: Get a monopoly gaming compact from the state (which is illegal for anyone else to do), get the land you are building on to be designated sovereign and pay back 25% of slot revenues regardless of what you add to the site.
Who wouldn't do this?
Please feel free to point me to successful Seneca developments that are not based on a monopoly on casino gaming. I won't hold my breath. Driven through a reservation lately? Are they all new builds with bustling industry and jobs? What bureaucratic red tape is there on a sovegrn nation? Any developer here would have jumped on a deal such as this. You people are rediculus acting like this back room deal with the governor to by pass the state constitution in a money grab is a sign of a great developer.
We complain about subsidies but when properly accounted for this is pry our biggest subsidy ever. And it's to a sovereign nation
This one is a tough call, but looks like nothing can be done to stop it.
Should be interesting to see what happens when a developer chooses not to conform to preservationists and lawsuits. They are taking a lot of risk and initiative.
Development begets development. There will be more lofts and retail built around this location. I assume Bass Pro is hoping this project will become a success.
Who knows, we may see that long desired "critical mass" sooner than later.
The casino is designed to draw money out of the area. The Senecas' business plan acknowledged that most of the business at the casino would be locals. So that means that, of all the predominately local money spent at the casino, 75% will go to the Senecas, 18% to the state, and 7% to the city. 93% of our money goes somewhere else.
Colin - How does that differ from going to a restaurant? I'll tell you how. When you eat out, 100% goes to the restaurant. That's how! (oh I forgot, you have to pay a sales tax on top of that 100%).
Sorry, bad html.
Fixed:
MJ - Sorry if I misinterpreted your view favoring fully legalized casinos.
Let any developer develop anything they want in exchange for %25 of slot revenue.
I agree that'd be much better, so hopefully it happens some day. Past efforts to change the state constitution for allowing that have been blocked in the Assembly. So that leaves 3 possibilities meanwhile - not allowing casinos, opening state-run casinos, or what they did with tribal casinos.
Look at NF Ontario and look at NF USA. See how much is happening on the other side? See the spin off? I do. See it on our side? Wonder why? Casinos are gov't owned up there.
I disagree with what you say that the difference in spinoff on the NF Ontario side vs. NF NY side is due to govt casino ownership. For one thing, as far as I know the NF Ontario side was much more thriving than NY side long before casinos on either side. So there's much more to it. Also, who's to say having NY state own and operate casinos would draw as many customers as having Seneca Gaming do it? A great argument could be made that NYS would be much worse - inefficiency, bureaucracy, political correctness, patronage, on and on. So even with percent of revenues going to the govt being higher that way, it'd be a larger slice of a smaller pie. The 25% of slot revenues going to the govt sounds like a fair amount. That's probably around a third of total profits or something like that, if profits are 50% of total casino revenue.
You seemed to switch arguments in mid-comment, going from favoring legal privatized casinos with 25% revenue to the govt, over to favoring socialized gambling as Ontario does. Seems inconsistent, but then at the end you're back to favoring legalized private casino ownership in the long term, so we end up agreeing on that. Until you said this:
I've grown enough to look at the long run and return on benefits.
You're more than entitled to your opinion, but it doesn't make you more grown than other people who think something different than you. Off the high horse, please.
MJ - Sorry if I misinterpreted your view favoring fully legalized casinos.
Let any developer develop anything they want in exchange for %25 of slot revenue.
I agree that'd be much better, so hopefully it happens some day. Past efforts to change state constitution for allowing privately owned casinos have been blocked in the Assembly. So that leaves 3 possibilities meanwhile - not allowing casinos, opening state-run casinos, or what they did with tribal casinos.
Look at NF Ontario and look at NF USA. See how much is happening on the other side? See the spin off? I do. See it on our side? Wonder why? Casinos are gov't owned up there.
I disagree with what you say that the difference in spinoff on the NF Ontario side vs. NF NY side is due to govt casino ownership. For one thing, as far as I know the NF Ontario side was much more thriving than NY side long before casinos on either side. So there's much more to it. Also, who's to say having NY state own and operate casinos would draw as many customers as having Seneca Gaming do it? A great argument could be made that NYS would be much worse - inefficiency, bureaucracy, political correctness, patronage, on and on. So even with percent of revenues going to the govt being higher that way, it'd be a larger slice of a smaller pie. The 25% of slot revenues going to the govt sounds like a fair amount. That's probably around a third of total profits or something like that, if profits are 50% of total casino revenue.
You seemed to switch arguments in mid-comment, going from favoring legal privatized casinos with 25% revenue to the govt, over to favoring socialized gambling as Ontario does. Seems inconsistent, but then at the end you're back to favoring legalized private casino ownership in the long term, so we end up agreeing on that. Until you said this:
I've grown enough to look at the long run and return on benefits.
You're more than entitled to your opinion, but it doesn't make you more grown than other people who think something different than you. Off the high horse, please.
Boz - Yes some people do say that. Me for one. Seriously, it's not a big deal but what better definition of backwater can there be than that? I can't think of any.
Nobody says, "Buffalo's a backwater town because they celebrate internet polls."
I also think you're going way to far with the 'casino town' thing.
beyond the casino complex itself it represents a conscious decision for Buffalo to label itself a "casino town." It's not just about one building, it changes our identity.
Detroit has 3 big separate casinos. Is it known as a casino town, or did it 'label itself' that? No. Is its identity defined by that? No. Most people think of it as a declining Rust Belt city, and also for its remaining auto industry, it's former Motown thing, high crime, sports, etc. Its three big casinos are a minor claim to fame or shame, depending on one's view.
Similarly, Buffalo won't be thought of primarily for having a casino. By far what most people think of is snow and cold. After that, other things a lot of people might think of would be Rust Belt decline, chicken wings, and the Bills. Maybe Niagara Falls too. Other than those, there's a bunch of things some but fewer people would associate with Buffalo, depending on their interests. Some might think architecture, or UB, or the Sabres, Rick James, Tim Russert, grain elevators, etc. The casino will be one of those - not a major awareness factor, pro or con. If that's your concern, relax. And for those who do think of the casino when they think Buffalo, some will look down on it (as you say everyone will) and some (nobody you know, but some) people will view it as something fun to do here.
Preservation of buildings is one thing - archeology in the earth, dating back thousands of years is quite different.
Only thing missing is the tax-free Indian gas station --- any news of when they will break ground on that addition?
I am sure that this will get lost in the mix but..
Around seven years ago, my father and I parked (for free) a block away from this site.. Lo and behold, someone shouted out a window offering their pleasurable services (for both of us)! We didn't mind one bit.. However, like vivian just wanted to say, who's to complain (other than obstructionists) when people want to spend hundreds of millions on land no one wants..
My fiance and I may be the exception, or just what Buffalo is looking for.. We have stayed at Seneca Niagara for free stays a few times in the past years (never spending more than 50 bucks per month in gambling).. This has given us a free vacation and a "trip" to the falls (not that I need one, living on GI).. I patronize the local restaurants and then wander around wishing there was something..
I will do the same in Buffalo.. I will spend my twenty and then look to spend 30-50 for dinner.. Sure i can't afford movies, concerts, or other low choice entertainment options, but it's what i like.. I still get my theater tix, sabres tix, bills tix, etc... You don't see me complaining.. I like going to the casino (for some reason).. I like wandering around outside, if fun is around..
But let's complain about grain mills that have been rusting away for years.. These are historic landmarks on par with the Statue of Liberty and the Empire State Building... I have family coming from Scotland to see the General Mills Plants because ofthe historic nature of cheerios..
The Seneca's get things done because their sovereign status means they don't have to follow any of the rules the rest of us do. That means no community process, no zoning laws, etc. The building doesn't even have to meet building codes (enter at your own risk). This is not a good way to build a city.
Those of us that don't like this project want progress, but we don't want it at the expense of our quality of life, and our city's rich history. We're not willing to settle for mediocre projects, as others are willing to do.
The Seneca's are building a tacky casino that has no realtion to the buidlings in the Cobblestone District. If the they cared about the viability of the Cobblestone District they would have tried to connect to it. Instead they are putting up a cheap, stand-alone building, surrounded by parking garages and service entries.
Look at the casino photo. That's not progress folks.
sally --
Buffalo has a long and disastrous history with silver bullet projects. This isn't a controversial point. It would be wise to look beyond the shiny new buildings and try to figure out the real impact. If you think that we can "build a beter future" on gambling and publicly-subsidized sporting goods stores, I admire your audacity.
martin --
The problem is that property will separate local people fro their paychecks and send them out of the area, while paying no taxes, undercutting tax-paying businesses and exacerbating the addiction of some vulnerable people. Or, to put it another way -- Atlantic City, Detroit, Niagara Falls NY . . .
tonyarmani and allfit, do you seriously think there is an honest comparison to be made between the hurdles facing a Buffalo developer and the Seneca Nation? Do you really feel the Seneca Nation is taking huge risks and going out on a limb financially the same way another developer would to build a similiarly scaled project downtown? You do realize the seneca nation is building a casino right? Something the state has promised them a monoply of? Do you not get that? I can't stand these statements, "developers take note" or how about "if they owned all of the buffalo waterfront we'd have a place to bring the family instead of a dirt lot" - yeah, so the kids like gambling? that's about all they would build.
and damn that design still sucks. i'm sorry, but anyone defending it has no taste. that is a pile of dirt if i ever saw one.
NYC - The truth hurts doesn't it?
Allfit / TonyArmani - You hit the nail on the head.
Mrogers - I agree with you too
"The Senecas are making progress where others have failed" - what? ANYONE who has had the deal the senecas have - uniland, paladino, rocco, whoever, would have built a casino themselves and done so with the same speed and enthusiasm.. when you compare the casino to other development projects its apples to oranges. Do you really think casino income and preservation tax credits are equally lucrative?
Of course the senecas are going to win the development game when everyone else is barred from playing. Can Uniland can go ahead and build their own casino and tax fee hotel???
also nice job calling me a racist. I guess if i am skeptical of the casino, I must be a racist!
"it took months and months for them to acquire fulton st or do you forget" - yeah because we should just be giving our public streets out to whomever wants them. its worked so well for us in the past.
Quick, someone get NewB a dictionary. He's the sucker playing penny slots in the corner.
Comparing the Nation to a private sector developer is laughable. Clueless sheep. Baaaa!
Gambling sucks, I work to hard for my money to piss it away on losing it to a machine solely designed to take my money. The casino looks great in a good location If that’s your thing. At least they didn’t try to locate it on Allen.
The pile driving, is like a knife through the heart of our local archeology. Imagine the history that has been swept under the rug with the construction of the HSBC Arena and now this Casino. The inlet of the Buffalo River was such a natural settlement for thousands of years with so many stories to tell. But in this glorious age of man, $ports franchises and illegal gambling, and the speed to feed it - are more essential then history itself.
people are interested in things that have some sort of negative impact. One day you might be the lucky guy standing on the 190 with a gun.
Buffalo could use more interest on all sides of the fence. The investment is old time buffalo, with all the bells and whistles. They improved the plan; however what we are all realistically worried about is commitment. Perhaps that’s why people allude towards issa or maybe we just like to drown in sorrow and shame? I would rather build a casino here then the galleria mall part two, it will be interesting to see how this puppy integrates into our social fabric. We need the investment to do its job, bring people in and show them a good time.
Issa showed us how quickly a city like buffalo can find its grove. The city tower project was a big impact proposal, well you know what? We can still find ways to attract investment. The statler should have been immediately offered historic tax credits and I doubt anyone on this earth is going to allow that project to fail. They installed floors with lights under them for Christ’s sakes.
I hope the Seneca’s know a thing or two about old time buffalo.
rb66 - your exciting shows in the double post.
So, OK Buffalo will have a Casino, possibly a Bass Pro and a beautiful naval park. Downtown has thousands of people and growing and some new shops here and there.
I suppose my point is that there is stuff going on in the City, the quality of life is better and there are developments going on all over. LET'S ROLL BUFFALO.
sally --
1. A payment isn't a tax. Everything in the casino will be 8% cheaper than it would otherwise be elsewhere. That will hurt local businesses.
2. The Senecas are a sovereign nation. In geographic terms, they might be located in WNY, but in political and economic terms they're their own entity.
3. If I remember correctly, the casino is actually going to be run by a Native American gaming corporation based out of state -- details would be appreciated.
4. As you say, its unlikely that the state will do anything positive w/casino money. So why should we be happy about a casino that will send 18% of the profits -- our money -- to Albany?
MJ - I get what you're saying but it's too late to stop the state's deal with the Senecas. The only thing that can stop it now is the federal court suit. If you guys start lobbying the legislature for a constitution change to legalize private casinos, I'll support your effort. If done right, that could easily level the playing field so the Senecas won't have a special deal.
This is why so many people look at Buffalo as a backwater town. Tell anyone outside WNY you're putting an Indian casino in the heart of your downtown and see how many of them don't roll their eyes and laugh. Enjoy those "thousands of great jobs!" This just sinks Buffalo's image even further.
I'm with Satish Mohan for bringing back manufacturing jobs to this community instead of these sham casino service jobs.
No, Atwater, this isn't just a question of relativity. People outside the WNY coccoon look at this as a singularly bad decision, and beyond the casino complex itself it represents a conscious decision for Buffalo to label itself a "casino town." It's not just about one building, it changes our identity. Nobody says, "Buffalo's a backwater town because they celebrate internet polls." But putting an Indian casino right next to a housing project really looks awful.
Our sinking population numbers speak for themselves, and offering a bunch of jobs at blackjack tables isn't going to make people want to stay or come.
I'm sure the "preservationalists" make the residents of the Webb lofts and occupants of the Guaranty Building sick as well, probably the developers making money off those properties as well.
Colon is right - we should never attempt new projects to better the City because previous projects have failed. So if we want to avoid another failure we need to stop all of these carazy attempts to make a better City - we must stop the Casino, we must stop Bass Pro and the rest of Canalside, we must even stop the little 'ole brew pub from getting too big for it's britches. We are Buffalo dammit and we best continue acting like it. We must quash those uppity notions that we can build a better future!
While the casino goes up, Benderson claims in today Buffalo News that restaurants/retail shops will be open in the Inner Harbor(Canalside) by 2010. It is also stated that a formal design for Canalside will be released this summer. One last note from the article...it makes it sound like Bass Pro is a done deal, but has a binding agreement with them been signed?
Call me skeptical, but am I the only one who doesn't see anything hap
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