Jaded eyes are watching. And we 'Fin Du Siecle' types never use coarse language like "reinforced concrete", we say "Portland Stone".
Jaded eyes are watching. And we 'Fin Du Siecle' types never use coarse language like "reinforced concrete", we say "Portland Stone".
"Now comes word that the developer has warmed to taking on the project itself. According to an email to the WVRG, Ellicott Development has retained a new architect and that “there is finally some more promising and forward progression” at the Graystone."
What does any of this mean? Not really out to criticize, but is this all we have to go on? What word do you have? Can you be more specific? It means nothing that Ellicot Dev hired a new achitect?
You are sending false hope regarding a project that will unlikely be completed. This building is beyond repair.
It's not beyond repair, Gaustad, but it obviously has a huge rat problem.
If we give Ellicott Development a Butter lamb, I'm sure they will follow through.
This is good I guess. I agree with RD, the biggest problem with this building and the project is the owner. I can only hope that I am wrong but as long as Paladino owns this building I find it hard to believe that anything will happen fast. As he said in that email. "a little while before we have something formal to present" well how long? Are we talking about 4 months, 4 years, or until it really does become 'beyond repair.'
This could be just a hold out strategy in order to buy time for the place to fall apart even longer so they can demolish it.
On a slightly different note how much grander would it be to see the graystone over a grassed park and mature trees instead of the hoods of cars and SUV's. Wouldn't it be nice to re-extend Johnson park across Elmwood as it was. Not saying all the way to Delaware but give the west village some of its connection back to Delaware that it once had.
What is the story with the brick building next door that fronts Delaware? Flop house? Subsidized apartments?
I'm guessing the ultimate plan here is to have an architect say the building can't be re-habed because of the reinforced concrete (or portland stone) and will give the go-ahead to demo. Probably the plan all along. I don't want this to happen and think it's a great building, but c'mon - given the building's (and city's) recent history - it's a likely outcome.
Yes to extending Johnson Park! I didn't know that there used to be park here but that would be a great selling point. it is really easy to picture this building looking out over a pocket park.
Now to the negatives; apart from the construction challenges the biggest obstacle is the apartment building next door. Why would anyone want to pay market rate to live next to that mess? A bigger question is why isn't that building being converted to condos or market rate apartments? I think this is the best location in the city. It is walking distance to downtown, the nightlife on Chippewa and the Allen St. nightlife and restaurants. A conversion to condo might provide the lower priced units that people seem to be looking for.
Do they even use wreckeng balls anymore? I hope so because this dump is in dire need of one.
Johnson park used to connect straight through to Delaware, hence why the name of the streets on this block correspond to the ones around the park and why the size of the block is much smaller than the rest around it. Check out an aerial or an old Sanborn map. It was one park before Elmwood was extended South cutting through from Allentown to downtown. The south half of Elmwood used to be called Monroe Street.
I sure hope that this isn't just a process to demolition but actual progress to renovation. Who cares about the building next door. there are far worse places than that building to live next too. Perry Projects for one and that didn't stop Elk Street from happening or expanding, or selling completely out. People who move into the city are not the same people that are scared of their neighbor and want to live in total economic homogeneity. Those people will stay where ever they are now and comment about razing every building from Kenmore to Lackawanna because its all old and worthless.
The building next door is the Hotel Touraine and is one of the most expensive apartment buildings around. I lost several tenants to that building because my apartments at 430 Delaware Ave couldn't compete with the heavy sudsidies. Has anyone read the articles on that place a few years back? The owners name was Hutchins from what I remember.
The Graystone Hotel is a cool building. When I toured it the original apartments had be broken into three. There was a flooded sub-basement that resembled Loch Ness with no monster to be seen.
I remember hearing that a reason for the delays at the Graystone were due to the fact that it was discovered that many of the interior walls are load-bearing and that hampered enlarging the rooms. Does anybody else remember hearing that?
SBOF,
I do not know your comparison is fair. This building is next door and not a couple hundred yards away.
People are going to jump on me for this but I still feel it is true. The City of Buffalo has to have better planning on public housing. From what I can see, it is poorly run and haphazardly planned. This is detrimental to development.
The Graystone was touted as a fire-resistant, if not fire-proof, building. There is minimal use of wood in the construction. The interior walls between the original apartments were very solid, probably brick or concrete.
It's "fin de siècle" o' rising damp...but I agree, this building is a beauty!
I also heard that the interior of the building is structurally connected to the exterior. The whole building is like one precast piece of concrete. This makes remodeling walls difficult at best which is why when Paladino, without doing his homework, tried to demolish a wall, the roof above it collapse. After which he tried to dump the property.
the way the structure is built means you probably want to very fruggle with how many walls you should take down, since additional structure would be needed. But at the same time the structure is built in such a way that you probably don't need to add much if anything to get fire code compliance. It really just sounds like an interesting design problem to create some great living spaces here.
Also being such a tight form of construction leaving it open to the elements, like Paladino has for several winters now could have been the death nail for it. There isn't an easy way to demolish the interior walls like the Webb or other buildings, They are all the same and when you have freeze thaw happening and pushing the exterior walls out it isn't good for this kind of structure. Who knows. We will just have to wait and see what the architect says.
I'll bet there's a long lease given to the Touraine for subsidized housing. WHEN it's up, someone should get a hold of it and rehab it, too. It would be a great condo/appt. building. I think it's in the same boat as the Red Jacket (some unbelievable lease term like 20 years). Imagine the Greystone AND the Touraine as middle/upper income housing. You might actually see retail return to Delaware.
Allowing the water damage is a calculated risk as the more damaged the inside, the less historic material must be retained when utilizing the federal historic preservation tax credit. He certainly doesn't want to keep the finishes within so letting them fall to the elements and allowing for replacement with new materials helps the bottom line and project program. As long as he doesn't "intentionally" destroy any historic fabric then he's set.
Paladino is going to let this sit and collapse. If this is on the National Register then how is this possible? Perhaps he would have better luck with this project: http://www.flickr.com/photos/jas23/2324137145/
Jas, listing on the NR only provides protection from federal undertakings or federally funded projects which could cause an "adverse effect" to the property. There is no protection against private owners altering or razing the building. The only true protection for buildings is local designation, and that requires code enforcement, something not seen in Buffalo.
This like the Vernor building will sit, become neglected and fall apart. Water damage for this type of structure is more difficult to contain because it structurally weakens the whole buildings not just the floors. If the floors go they pull the walls with them. Unlike wood farmed interiors which can be stabilized without any internal floors or even a roof. Which is why Paladino's intentions are probably far from good intentioned. he has Intentionally left it open to the elements for several YEARS! He knows the consequences he knows he is subjecting this building to irreparable damage... Why is he allowed to do this. Shouldn't he be in jail.
ohh wait this is America where we value our right to do nothing now / more than any long term implications; even if they hinder or harm the future of many.
I wouldn't say water damage is worse on a reinforced concrete structure. Stabilizing the walls of a timber structure and having the floors and beams rot isnt exactly ideal and all you really have is facadism. With the reinforced concrete you really can leave it open for a bit and only the soft finishes will be ruined. Yes the freeze/thaw cycle will eventually ravage the building but not so quickly. Of course you can't just save the facades on a reinforced concrete structure because it acts as one system, but by the time you get to that point the building is only a disney facade anyway.
Does anyone think that maybe Paladino has good intentions with this building? Just maybe he sees the potential of the area with new developments occuring on nearly every side of the Graystone. There is a new supper club opening up at the old buddies bar and the new M&T building has sure improved Deleware Ave. I mean cmon people this building was a shithole before Paladino took control he tried developing it made some mistakes but lets give the guy some credit he has rehabbed several buildings downtown that were surely headed for the wrecking ball Bergers, University club, United Office building and made sure the webb building got developed by sellling to Rocco Termini...All you negative as*holes out there why dont you get some money together buy a crappy building like this and fix it up and lose a million on it.
Patching the roof would show action, this town has died on good intentions. If Paladino does something with the building he'll be lauded, otherwise he'll be the goat, its just the way it works.
Downtownjunkie, are you Carl Paladino's bitch? I mean, you don't get the angle, do you? The Graystone is a bargaining chip to get Paladino whatever else he wants: "Oh, if you throw a few subsidies my way, I can move on the Graystone; and, " Oh, we're really close here, I just need more parking." Paladino is a hero with your money, tool. Maybe just maybe, he will actually lose a million of his own money for once.
Contrary to common belief, the Hotel Touraine's subsidies are not the heaviest around, and due to the age of the building, the upkeep and maintenance on a 107 year old structure is significant. The project's subsidy dollars vs. mortgage, utilitilty, maintenance and repairs require serious budgeting and long term planning to keep the project maintained.
It was considered a few years ago to convert the property to mid to upper scale housing, rather than extend the subsidy contract, but considering the proximity to the high noise and traffic generated by the Chippewa and Franklin street establishments, not much interest was shown in the conversion. The decision was made to sign a new 20 year contract. No one was seriously interested in buying and renovating.
As far as the Greystone is concerned, I'm all for getting work restarted to stablize and redevelop the building. The hole in the roof has been getting progressively worse over the past few years, and bricks are falling off the back side, resulting in scaffolding being constructed to protect parked cars from damage. Earlier this winter, a large amount of roofing material came loose and fell onto Johnson Park, and a large section was left hanging from the side of the building, which could have fallen on vehicles and foot traffic. Vagrants are pulling plywood off the lower windows in search of access. The interior walls are all poured concrete, making in difficult to renovate.
Good luck to anyone trying to convert this mess to something profitable. The longer the Greystone is left to the weather, the more likely demonotion will be the only option.
Why do I secretly hope I'll be walking past the building when just enough of it can fall off and onto me - nothing too permanent, but enough to rape Palidino's savings account. I know, it's sick but fun to think about in a weird way.
Tudorguy--
I've been hoping for something to fall off the Greystone for years. Right on Paladino. The SOB got in over his head and is now letting the bulding rot to the detriment of the entire neighborhood. I had to personally threaten his office with the City Engineering Department to get them to pull off the dangerous materials hanging from the side. He's hoping to let it cave in to the point he can write off the demolition and costs associated with trying to keep it up. And he hasn't done jack squat in three years to even keep the property from deteriorating.
My boss had the opportunity to buy the Greystone 20 years ago for $1, and he turned it down. There are more issues with this structure than are apparant to the naked eye.
And who is going to spend $1000 or more a month on rent for a unit in the heart of crackhead/ entertainment district central? I realize that downtown is going upscale, but in this neighborhood? Goldman even sold out and gave up on converting the Calumet to upscale housing. If I can't keep an elderly woman in a subsidized Delaware-facing unit at under 100 per month due to the noise from Chippewa and Franklin in the summer, or crackheads sneaking into the building in the winter (with security guards, cameras and locked entry doors) what professional in their right mind is going to rent under those conditions?
Yes, as a matter of fact, Tudorguy, if you are wondering, I do run and manange the Touraine, as well as all of our associated properties. Touraine's been my building for nearly 7 years now, and if any of you really want to know the history of the two properties, just ask. Want to know our lease term? I just busted my butt in August 2007 for another 20 years, because no one was interested in making an offer on a conversion, and as far as the Greystone is concerned, I have, in my possession, all of the structural plans on the building - its a conversion nightmare.
The Touraine was started in 1899 and completed by 1901 for the Pan Am. It was the first hotel in the country offering running water and bathroom facilities privately to every guestroom, rather than shared facilities common in that day and age. It was converted to subsidized housing in 1983 after a substantial rehabilitation project - one of the rare preservation efforts occurring in Buffalo and still operated by the same owner - someone actually preserved a structure rather than tearing it down.
The Greystone was constructed shortly after the Touraine in response to the high demand for hotel rooms genrated by the PanAm. They went to a poured concrete interior in order to speed up the construction time to have it ready for the influx in guests for the expositon and its spill-over tourism. This construction techique is causing the biggest difficulty in converting it to new housing, and moving the walls shifts the load bearing weight of the structure significantly. It is not easily converted to marketable housing due to the difficulties in rehabilitiating the structure. The building is infested with rats and roaches due to years of abandonment. There is a common tunnel between the two buildings that was filled in years ago, which at one time was used by hotel staff that shared kitchens, laundry and utility areas due to the proximity of the two builidings.
Any other questions?
justjen114, regarding the noise on Chippewa Street....it isnt going to last much longer.
Next year the Buffalo Seneca Creek Casino is going to open along with their hotel. Once that Casino and Hotel are open look for Chippewa Street businesses to slowly close and reopen in the area surrounding the Casino. This will become Buffalos 24 hour district.
What will happen to Franklin Chippewa?....it will slowly settle into a more laid back dinner, theater, jazz, residential sort.
Lets face facts...that the Chippewa District is only blocks from the new Federal Courthouse and that is just going to introduce alittle to much seriousness and sobriety into the Chippewa District.
Then the Touraine along with the Statler will be ripe for residential conversion. Id say that the Hotel Lafayette is shockingly silently ignored...and I would think after all the residential conversions that it would be a high profile building on the developers radar.
As far as the Greystone is concerned, its the facade that everyone wants saved...not the inerds. I really dont see why the money cant be put into saving the exterior and demolishing the interior.....infact...if that happened I would take the exterior of the Graystone and wrap it right around to front Elmwood...
Beyond that, whats wrong with making the whole of the Greystone a one room hostile which Buffalo just one awards for....or a nursing home which only needs one bedroom or 1 bedroom studios by connecting two rooms together (1bath&bedroom connected to living room and bath converted to kitchenette).
Hey, I dont have a degree in structural architecture....their just ideas....
The big "IF" right now is what is going to happen to the Statler if Basshar pulls out? Its stupid if he does because with the Federal Courthouse ... the Statler is going to be a very good development opportunity.
Frankly...the pace of Canadian relocations to Buffalo Niagara is picking up...and Basshars City Tower would be a good project too (though I think its abandoned).
The thing about Buffalo is that it just doesnt do anything with a long term focus. Its always demolish rather than stabilize. The result is always the same....Buffalo gets bypassed because it just doesnt have the infrastructure already built and top buildings in move-in ready condition. Buffalo really needs the City Tower in order to not get bypassed but good luck getting it built. The statler and the city tower would change the entire dynamic of downtown.
justjen114, good solid facts that I concur with. We have also had this building in Housing Court, therefore the removal of the lower grafitti, the fencing in front of the driveway area and the push for remediation of the property. You're absolutely right about the hole in the roof. That could have been covered a few years back and SHOULD HAVE, as well to prevent a great deal of internal issues similar to the Webb.
As far as extending the greenspace, Mathews owns the parking lot and I doubt he would allow that, though it would be a great project. We are also working to change the way many parking lots on this section of S Elmwood all the way to City Hall look and are taekn care of.
Currently, we have a major project going on and have tremendous efforts answered by some very distinguished business persons. http://jprestoration.blogspot.com.
Paladino needs to recognize the efforts of the community of the West Village and the WVRG in their work with law enforcement agencies and government. It's a much prettier picture than five years ago and we can't find enough housing inventory for sale to keep up with the requests. Additionally, the efforts of Uniland, Aquest, Peyton-Barlow and others like them in the adaptive reuse of properties along the Delaware/Elmwood/Johnson Park corridor is outstanding and cries for remediation of this historic structure.
I've heard that he is going to propose single bedroom suites for the Graystone. If that is ture, we might surmise that he might be thinking of additional hotel space. I always thought that with the new federal courthouse and other developments in the area, a boutique hotel might be a good answer to this remediation.
As far as Chippewa, I agree with Chris69, once the casino goes up I think many bars may move to the Cobblestone District. If that is the case, and with all the residential efforts here, we have a strong need for retail, grocers, and small habedashers (sp).
As soon as we meet with the Paladino Group, we'll let WCP know the results for future posts.
The news today actually has some good information about this project. I guess paladino is going to ride the coat tails of Rocco's ingenuity. Of course Paladino couldn't come up with outside the box ideas himself but either way. It said it calls for a single suite orientation as MRogers hinted at. It might be more akin to an older home where the rooms are separate rooms and not just spaces in a larger area. Something I think will be nice actually. I always hated newer houses because you can hear people in every room because of the lack of walls. Privacy within an apartment or homes means you need to be able to close doors and the walls for those doors.
I think if he does move forward, which the new seemed to consider a real probability, then it could provide for a nice affordable place to live for those who can't afford 1500 bucks. Who knows. I just find it funny that he couldn't come up with this idea himself and needed to be inspired by Rocco's work.. It would probably help if he actually hired a real architect. As I said from the beginning this building is nothing more than a good design solution away from new life. Instead of fighting and trying to fit a square peg in a round hole, work with the structure to create something beautiful.
unfortunately I don't see very many bars moving to the cobblestone area because there simply are not enough existing buildings to move into. No single bar owner can afford to build his own place. Unless some big developer comes along to take on one of those huge parcels of empty land it is going to sit vacant. The city should take those large parcels, divide them, and offer them for sale.. maybe then someone could afford to do something but probably not. Chippewa started where it did because of the availability of cheap and dense storefronts. Show me one street anywhere around the cobblestone that has the density and available space that Chippewa has.
You have the 190 to the north, - dead end Perry projects / railroad lines directly to the east - dead end 4 commercial buildings to the south / empty land to the south then the river 3 commercial buildings to the west then empty parking lots all the way to BRO's block.
There isn't anything around here suitable for small bars / clubs. You might get a couple move and attempt to take over the few and far between buildings but you are never going to see new construction for bar use. Look at the several parking lots on Chippewa now, they would be perfect spots for new bars but no one can afford new construction with rents from club or bar owners. SoHo is probably the only exception to the rule and who knows how that came to be. Plus a district of that... would be one of the ugliest places around... then again it might fit well with the casino design.
Implosion in 3, 2, 1.....the Johnson park "brownstone park" area ideas are cool....it is still a bit dicey down there at night...I used to live down near there. Go check out the neighboorhood down Tracy and the side streets.
BuffaloSun, phase II of the park project has enhanced security lighting and cameras.
Report this