waterfront dreams are nice and all but the only thing that will draw people or keep people from leaving are job opportunities.....this isn't to criticize the idea because I know I would love to see some progress on the waterfront or downtown in my lifetime
What do you want?
Additionally, Hinchey has included a floating concert platform. But Hinchey's big touristy draw would come in the next phase, and that would involve a promenade encompassing 17 "Culture Districts" that would feature the looks, smells, tastes and sounds of each particular culture that is highlighted. In time, he would like to see this area geo-thermally heated and flanked by a shallow canal that would allow for water taxis in the summer and skating in the winter. Hinchey believes that the combination of private and public funding that would fuel this project would come back in the form of jobs created and an overall healthier economy.
I want him to do whatever crazy idea he wants but with HIS money, or investors money, and not public money when there's so many other needs and we already have higher taxes than almost anywhere else.
The plan sounds like a fiasco, but whatever, as long is it's his money that will be lost.
ugh... what a blah and uninspiring plan. We need something that creates a place... not just a collection of things that will fit.
In the end, you get condos, not "tourists", and commerce, not "celebrations". It's not that Buffalo is unworthy, it's just that there isn't a large pre-existing tourism culture here that this kind of scheme could plug right into. The Bass Pro project might send some people to the waterfront, but then what? A "Celebration of Diversity" in February? And a "floating concert stage" just sounds like some weird WPA fantasy from the 1930's. Let me guess: Hinchley digs old Busby Berkeley movies.
NSphere, your summary is a very good description of why this would be a fiasco for whomever tried implementing it.
But my question is why should people be applauded for seriously proposing something whose flaws should be so obvious? And not only to suggest such a thing but to try starting the ball rolling toward reaching into everybody's wallets to pay for it? If a fifth grader came up with a plan like this, then maybe an "A" for effort is deserved. But a grown up business person should know better. 17 culture districts and a floating concert platform. Good freakin grief.
Pundit, Geek, and Denizen are all correct to point out as politely as possible that a project this bad does more harm than whatever good comes from so-called creative thinking, and that this whole continuing "big project silver bullet" mentality is all wrong for what ails this area. As James Carville said: It's the economy stupid.
LOL Pot smoking hippies...i think its funny how everyone here thinks Buffalo can be played with like Sim City, put a house there, a business there and a fire dept there and everything will work out. YOU CAN'T. There are too many unions, wasps, stupid politicians, and liberal preservationists stopping you. Like a gauntlet of hippies. If you really want to see change happen, start writing to local politicians and demand change - if they won't do it then its time for someone to step up and take charge..
I applaud him for coming up with a plan, but personally I feel it is a poor plan. Its a lot of "pie-in-the-sky" ideas thrown into a poorly laid out system. The floating stage is unrealistic, the parkland has no direction, the recreation area is as many sporting fields as he can think of clustered together, and relies on unlikely changes to the site including NFTA rail expansion and a willingness of Nanodynamics and Masons sand supply to move.
At least you're thinking, but I cannot agree with this idea at all.
I guess the only thing I would add is a carport for the kind of flying cars they have in Star Wars, as that's what people will be using by the time any of this comes to fruition. I like the floating concert stage... Thursdays in the Water? A- for creativity though.
Being creative and imaginative is a good thing when it comes to cities. But, when this thinking focuses too hard on unrealistic and unattainable goals, it results in a lot of misdirected attention of otherwise good intentions.
I guess it's easier to cook up crackpot schemes that involve hundreds of millions of OTHER people's non-existent $$$ being invested, rather than to get down to the nitty gritty and fix real problems in a small-scale incremental fashion. We're a city where so many people think a souped-up waterfront will help bring back a city where a majority of neighborhoods could use some serious fixing. It's like spending hours arguing over what type of spinning rims and custom paint to use on the car with an engine that barely works. The smoking head gasket should come first.
Fix the basics first and then we might see some of the rewards that economically healthier cities get. The next time one of you "coalitionists" wants to bitch and moan about what type of road runs along a desolate chunk of waterfront land, stop and instead do something useful like pressure your local councilman to fix the disgusting mess of a real estate department found in city hall.
Develop something that is unique to Buffalo and celebrates Buffalo
Not with you there, Chris69. Buffalo needs many things but being celebrated, uniquely or otherwise, is very low on list at this point. The 17 fake cultural things sound weird, but a "Hooray For Buffalo" theme wouldn't be much better IMHO.
Mr. Hinchey - Not to be gloomy but I bet any big outdoor touristy entertainment theme will have a lot of trouble succeeding there. For one thing, eight months a year it's too cold and windy for outdoor stuff. That's a big reason the Pier flopped, right? For another thing, no offense, but those ideas just sound bad.
My earlier comments were harsh and unconstructive, but hey you asked. Here's a more constructive tries:
I'd suggest reducing touristy/entertainment aspect down to secondary thing at most, and focus on one word starting with 'b' that's buried in the middle of this sentence from article:
...this would create mixed-use areas, one that would produce tax revenue for the city comprised of residences and businesses, and one that the city would maintain as parks and sports complexes. ...
As much real business activity as possible. Put that land to work for a living. Companies might be interested in location near water even if just for nice surroundings. Worth a try.
You mention city-maintained parks and sports complexes. Please, no. This city can't well maintain ones it already has, and with a shrinking population, 2nd poorest in U.S., and shrinking tax base it really should focus on those. But maybe one business idea could be private sector ventures related to sports/recreation (softball league fields?, golf driving range?), although seasonal limitiations probably means these wouldn't be a main focus. And maybe some winter sports or recreation stuff could make money for somebody there. Just a thought.
And maybe some outdoor/entertainment things on a smaller scale could work during summers. Maybe even with concerts, floating or not. But no public taxpayer subsidies for anything like that. None. If you don't believe in it enough to risk private money, then that's a good hint it's probably not a great idea. A couple people mentioned a beach. If the water quality is good, something like that's a thought too.
In the sports complex, there's no badminton facility. That would be key. If that was added, I would back this project 100%.
My only other comment would be: I can robo-trip and play SimCity, too.
Once again...this is a major case of "cart before the horse" type of thinking.
Great waterfronts come to cities which already have their economic basics taken care of first. Buffalo is still in a heap of shit and needs a lot of those foundations fixed first. WNY needs a lot more new residents, jobs, and wealth before we can worry about pie-in-the-sky development wet dreams.
I want people to put their drafting software away, put their Epcot maps away, and instead lobby their elected officials to push for something that will enable organic growth on the outer harbor if any when anyone chooses to develop it. We should react to demand - not build a whole bunch of stuff and then hope people will come.
Since time immemorial, Buffalo has been replete with massive megaplans for that brownfield out there, and none of them have gotten off the ground for a variety of reasons - lack of demand, lack of funding, brownfield remediation costs, and - significantly - awful access.
A shrinking city with a shrinking tax base isn't going to pull in the kind of demand for outer harbor development that people dream of. This isn't "build it and they will come". It isn't that simple. Yes, we all want something nice there, but pipe dreams and E-zones and new zoos and Bills Stadiums and Epcots-on-the-Lake are so far from being the answer, and it merely perpetuates and solidifies our inferiority complex.
Here's the real blueprint:
- build the DOT's plan to simplify access to the outer harbor. - build the Tifft Street arterial, and begin the process of removing the Skyway - map out a street grid - bring utilities there. Electric, gas, cable, sanitary sewers, water, storm sewers, etc. - name the streets after every single person who has proposed a mega plan on the outer harbor - use the principles of the smart code to zone the entire project to reflect what people want it to look like.
I think the vision had been a sort of Battery Park City. That's swell. What I'd like to see is offices, apartments, condos, and retail. I want all of them to have ample, planned parking so that it's not sullied by surface lots. I'd like to see Metro Rail come down to the outer harbor on an extension.
Just because it's a blank canvas doesn't mean we need to fill it all at once at a cost of hundreds of millions of dollars.
And seriously - the "Orient"? What is this, 1985?
Elena, I know it was directed to Pundit...but what do I want?
I want a local and regional economy that can support this kind of wide eyed optimism and plans that are directly pulled from the ass of urban planners and designers who are completely disconnected from the statewide and regional economic reality we live in. I'd like people to stop pining for massive publicly subsidized pie in the sky proposals on the waterfront.
That's all.
Love, Geek
My question is why is their deafening silence from those who will be called upon to actually build out there?
Ummm, because we live in an economically depress region that cannot sustain massive development? What do I win?
Also, what does the boulevard alternative plan (designed by NYSDOT, BTW) do to advance any of the issues you ask about? There is no street grid plan there.
Also Also! What about the current NYSDOT plan disincents development? Does not provide for abundant waterfront access? Precludes future demolition of the Skyway? Separates people from the waterfront? Nothing.
This plan was on display at the Erie Basin Marina this summer. The big attraction on it was this enormous promenade that stretched that entire outer harbor and would feature hundreds of shops themed to different parts of the world. I have a hard time remembering the entire thing, but I remember thinking it was very monotonous for the entire stretch of the land.
Part of the problem I think we are having with the outer harbor, and something that will prevent it from being fully developed is that we are trying to plan the entire area. What we really need to do is plan for the access and utility infrastructure, but then allow the land to naturally devleop itself. Like was done with buffalo in the first place, pieces should be parceled off and sold to those who have an interest in developing the land. Allow the waterfront to grow organically. Once that land is made accessible, the natural demand will be there for it to flourish.
I want Rt 5 expanded to 4 lanes each way and elevated/extended along the water down to Angola. This will help Buffalo the most and everyone else blessed with its presence cuting through their waterfront. And as a bonus it will leave no room for a street grid plan of any kind to be squeezed in there. Thus saving infrastructure money. By time parking lots get put in because everyone has to drive down there we'll have????? ok....maybe not a good idea. ;)
Lay down the infrastructure with urban guidlines to create a new neighborhood. Provide incentives to build. Let it roll. Get rid of the elevated Rt. 5 so development has a chance to expand east instead of being confined between the wall of highway and the water. Leave public access along the water.
Buffalo does not need toon-town, mega convention centers of any other silver bullets down there. It needs, what would be, its only true waterfront neighborhood not cutoff from everything else or a psuedo-gated community. People will be more drawn to a real living thing as opposed to some fakey-town that will need to be rescued from bankruptcy every few years.
I hadn't noticed until you brought it up to tell you the truth.
Ok, you're welcome.
Most blogs of this type have "blog roll" type links to blogs of similar subject matter, but if you don't want that you shouldn't have it. The links you had until recently were much more limited than what most provide, usually one or two at a time on a rotating basis. But again, you should do what you want.
If "what do you want?" is meant as asking which local blogs I'd suggest linking to on a regular basis, I'd say as a quick staring point... Pundit, Geek, BuffaloG (Craig), FixBuffalo, and Michelle Johnson. I believe all those are frequenly updated, discuss relevant city topics with diverse perspectives, and most of those have links to you if I'm not mistaken. And there's other good candidates linked from those. But again, mostly I want you to do what you want.
no URL to our site ECB, it is a link to Flickr. I am averse to posting our links here as it's clear they are not welcome...and that's ok. Your site, no blogroll, no linkage to outside sources, that's cool. No complaints.
This is the stupidest piece of BULL MANURE that I think Buffalo Rising has ever posted!
The keys to the Outer Harbor have nothing to do with what this guy is talking about nor does it reflect the future of downtown Buffalo. The future of downtown Buffalo will include a resurgent Niagara Street but the area between Niagara and Main Street will continue to be Buffalos growing historical district. Therefore, the future of downtown Buffalo will be east toward the Central Terminal/Larking and south toward Lackawanna.
Now what is bringing all the growth to the waterfront! 1) Office and Residential development, selling the incredible views and access to the water 2) History, we have grown from a short excavated and rewatered Commercial Slip to having it extended all the way to the Erie Canal and the Main/Hamburg Canal with a reconstructed Spaulding Warehouse for a Bass Pro Megaplex. 3) Industry, a resurgent Port of Buffalo, Gateway Metro Port and auxillary Port of NY/NJ at the Seneca Rail Yards creating logistical center, as well as the return of brownfields to industrial parks.
So rewatering the Ohio Basin and Building a Convention & Conference Center would make sense
So expanding the film and media industry in Buffalo with a Production Facility would be good for Buffalo
So a replica canal boat, freight schooner, LaSalle Griffon, Adm Perry 1812 Warship and/or purchasing a smaller sister ship to the Canadiana would all make the waterfront unique
Bringing Great Lakes Cruise Ships to dock in Buffalo with excursions to Niagara Falls would be good for Buffalo
A waterfront museum for modern Art and Sculpture would be good for Buffalo (make the Albright Knox expand on the waterfront)
Wharehouse style lofts and apartments would create density and be good for Buffalo
Replacing the Route5 expressway with a boulevard and lift bridges
all of these ideas are relevant to the First Ward, Inner Harbor and Outer Harbor...this guys plan reminds of a plan hatched by a bunch of hippies on pot that know nothing of Buffalo or its history or its people.
Yes, we are fine purveyors of cheese. We'd like to try pairing some of your whine with it...
We have a long history of satire, parody, flaming ambivalence, disdain for silver bullet plans, and generally pissing people off.
The Skyway plan was posted on my site because there is $100MM floating around in the ether of public money to take down the Skyway. A guy walked into our office and asked us to post his plan so he could send a link out. So, I did that. When reading it, I thought "Hey, not a bad idea if they are going to spend $100MM to tear it down, why not spend $80Mm to turn it into something useful?" I/We didn't ridicule Tielman's proposal for Skyway reuse because it was an exercise similar to ours. It is a likely project to be funded and soliciting input for what could be done is mildly interesting.
Of course, these outer harbor plans are completely pulled out of nowhere. There is no public money floating about to get it done, it is a massive elevator to the moon plan, and our quick photoshop of a plan is just as likely to get built as what was just posted here and the four previous massive plans for the area submitted during the NFTA process and one from Riverkeeper. Apples v. Oranges.
What I find striking about the position of Geek and Pundit is their complete disregard to Phase II. That phase is actually getting ANYTHING built out there. Sure the Higgins plan provides access NOW. But to WHAT?
Mapping out a street grid AFTER the DOT does their thing is backwards! Electric, gas, cable, sanitary sewers, water, storm sewers already exist out there. They will need to be modified but they were run out there over 75 years ago.
Why the hell is the DOT or Higgins NEVER released a street grid plan with their project? It is not that fucking hard.
If their was a street grid to their plan, people could see specific parcels. They could see how they would access said parcels. They could see what the views from each parcel would be. Some of those "people" could be developers. Thats right I said developers! The same people who are going to be asked to develop the outer harbor once the access is provided. That access could be in a year or 5 years. Eventually some access is going to happen. When it happens, development needs to follow. How much of a pisser would that be if the access created prevented development.... IIRC other projects from the DOT has done wonder for development around them....
My personal opinion on the reason why this is not done is very simple. Developers DO NOT LIKE BUILD "offices, apartments, condos, and retail" next to a FUCKING SKYWAY! If they do, they like tax breaks or abatements. Just look at the savings Health Now and Waterfront Place. That is unless the entire project is a government project like Canal Side.
What this will create wasted space on both sides of the skyway until it comes down....IF IT COMES DOWN. Not all of the Outer Harbor will be wasted but a good portion would be. You would think that with a bad economy and declining population people would try and maximise what they have left. BP says "We should react to demand".... What demand? The demand to get something done or the demand of what developers want.
I could care less what goes out there as long at it adds to the tax rolls. But in order for that to happen, things need to be built. WNYmedia, BRO, Higgins, Kearns or any of the other talking heads is not going to build a damn thing. I nor anyone else who is actually speaking about this is going to build anything out there. My question is why is their deafening silence from those who will be called upon to actually build out there?
You would think that the largest undeveloped waterfront parcel in the UNITED STATES would at least get some interest now that Higgins has announced "full speed ahead" on the plan for access. If this plan was the solution, you would think someone with the skills to build out there would pick up the phone and call someone like Higgins and say they are interested. Higgins does not even have to name names and the developers would not have to break out their drafting software to show WHAT they would build.
Why has Higgins or Kearns not gotten the one opinion that REALLY MATTERS and that being the development community?
The point is it's like Epcot, only colder. Plus, do we really have a sizable Spanish or Australian immigrant heritage?
I want a beach downtown. I need a waterfront I can touch. It's such a tease walking around the Erie Basin Marina on a hot day and not even being able to dip your toes in the water. I hate that the best two options are as far away as Crystal Beach and Sunset Bay.
Geek-
One reference to love, one little kiss, and you hang your url on my site just-like-that. Hm!
So if we are in such a bad area that can not sustain massive development why the hell are we concerned about getting access to a large section of undeveloped land? If development is not going to happen, why bother. Save the Millions and keep things as they are.
I think we can all agree that the main benefit to getting access to the outer harbor, regardless of how it is done, is to spur development of some sort. No? My point being doesn't it make sense to develop that access with this goal in mind? To get the best return on investment...
If Higgins or the DOT can show interest in the land out there created by the access or that not doing the boulevard alternative will not hurt development, then I am 100% in favor of the DOT plan. If Kearns or the waterfront collation can show that the DOT plan would somehow hinder development or that the boulevard alternative would produce better development (in terms of more taxes) then I am 100% for them.
You are correct that there is no street plan for the boulevard alternative but I have never seen a challenge in development on a boulevard. Have you? I have however watched development challenges next to elevated roadways. It is building next to elevated roadways that I see the problem. I am just looking for someone other then a blogger or a politician to show me that it WILL NOT be a problem. What I fear is the land next to the elevated sections of the skyway which is a significant will sit idle because of the elevated sections of the skyway.
The boulevard alternative removes this concern 100%.
Of course there are countless socioeconomic concerns with the region. I am not ignoring them. But doesn't it make sense that with all of the challenges facing progress shouldn't the least obstructive plan for progress be done?
If it is shown that getting access NOW with the DOT's plan IS the best option in the long run...sign me up. But my concern is nothing has been shown that this is the case. The DOT plan is for sure the quickest result. The DOT plan is for sure the path of least resistance to get access. But what if by creating access an obstacle to development is created....now does that matter?
I hate this stupd idea of a celebration of multi-culturalism...its stupid..its beyond stupid...its ridiculous
Talk about recreating a Disneyesque development...in Orlando it might be worth it but in a few acres of outer harbor its assinine.
Develop something that is unique to Buffalo and celebrates Buffalo. Oh and I dont know whether your a computer geek or a pot smoking hippie from "lon gislan" but this isnt orlando or san diego or la, this is Buffalo and we prefer things that celebrate Buffalo, Buffalonians, Buffalo history!
Here is the WNYM Version of..."The Outer Harbor"
http://www.flickr.com/photos/wnymedia/2108730759/
biz (just biz) - The WNY Media ones (pundit, geek, michelle) still link to a bunch of local blogs beyond those on their network, and I'm quite sure for the longest time that bunch included BR (pretty sure I used to click there to come here sometimes) but you're right that BR ins't there now so perhaps there was a tit-for-tat removal or whatever. Anyhow my point was for you about the joke but when asked by ECB, I gave my take. I wasn't referring to it in a sense of protocol or obligation, just that almost all blogs I know of do it. No biggie. They must have their reasons.
Chris:
I like every one of your ideas.
I also think it's cool that Pat is drawing--and redrawing--his ideas. At least he has ideas, right?
Pot smoking hippie? Wow.
yeah! Pat for joining in this conversation! That doesn't often happen, and I appreciate having you involved in this discussion,...which is what I think you were initiating to start with. It takes some guts to put yourself out there, and to take the responses. I'm happy that the first response is a positive one, with ideas to share from MJW.
I think that you have some great ideas to start a conversation. Some might not be feasible, but I like that you put your 'dream' out there. I believe that BRO, and these comments are a great forum to both have a discussion about, and for us to learn, and share, the visions we all have.
I agree with many responders, about taking down the Skyway, and make the waterfront accessible. At this point, there are many people who don't even know about Time's Beach. which is a shame. Check it out folks. Great for picnics, birding, hiking, photography, botany, etc.
What would get me, and others to visit and spend their hard earned cash, for the area to be, both a link to the Greenway Project as well as downtown, and....well, I remember a great trip a couple of years ago to Clearwater Beach in FL. At that time is was still a mix of new build condos and hotels, and the old motels. All of which respected the waterfront. What was particuallary charming, (and advertised and written about) was a few things. Easy public access to the beach/waterfront. A nice playground for kids, with an adjoining seasonal SMALL in the foot print- waterslide park and, perhaps most importantly, as it drew in both local and tourist crowds from all walks of life..the "Pier" Where nightly musical concerts were held, Jugglers, musicians, and artists joined together to make a 'carnival' feeling, without the yuckiness that goes with that. It was small in scope, but big in impact. Families could go there, the kids could play, the adults could listen to music, watch entertainment, shop, have dinner, as well as college students,..all ages. It has a long history of being part of the neighborhood, and also has a prominent web presence to those booking hotel rooms, those who want to know who is playing when, etc.
That would be a good place to start. We loved it! Afterward, we went to Disney, and while that was great also for our young daughter, she always remembers the Clearwater Beach area. Simple, yet very effective in its draw....I'll try and find the link to post. Like I said, it had a small foot print...was nothing like a big carnival or commercial project..just developed out of the local neighborhood, and extened far beyond that.
I think that people want to get away from commercialism and industry as B'flo history, both past and present, has used the waterfront for, and get back to a more organic vision and use of this great downtown area.
I look at this as a wonderful natural resouce that has been abused and misused. Build upon that, add the local flavor, make it accessible, and fun and diverse in the activities, and I think we'd have a genuine attraction there, both for our local use as well as bringing in toursits.
And yes, make it a true waterfront neighborhood, integrated into the city with perhaps a center like in Cleveland (right on the waterfront) a "Great Lakes Science Center". I've heard so many people comment on how they thought it would be a bore...but when they went there, children too, had a great time...spent the whole day, (instead of the hour or two they had planned) Plus is has an OMMIMAX cinima that shows both science and Great Lakes related issues and history as well as popular movies. Check it out at www.glsc.org.
We went there recently for a work related conferance, and didn't have the opportunity to visit the GLSC, but because of all the buzz about it, are planning on going back- to CLEVELAND, to visit the GLSC, as well as other things to check out. Hey! That says something to me....never thought I'd be planning a trip to Cleveland. We have too many trips to visit family in AZ and MS already. But. it impressed me enough to want to go back! That is what B'flo needs. That kind of thinking.
Louse-
A tweak here and there perhaps. At some point this week, our search engine got swift and happy and the few blogs we had went away. I hadn't noticed until you brought it up to tell you the truth.
I do have a political blog on my wish list, there is another I check frequently because I like to know what's going on in the city in regard to fixing what ails it. I would feel the circuit was complete if I could pick out a great arts blog and one on education. I would like to start my own blog that had to do with everything I'm told off the record, but then no one would talk to me anymore and I'd have to haunt someone else's site.
And even if we don't link to others' blogs...they're here in the comments. Always welcome, stirring it up and keeping everyone on their toes. We like it. How can we be accused of isolationism when we invite everyone into our arena?
Long-haired hippy freaks. Census-takers. Even the ethnically intolerant. Geeks, greenies and the self-rightious. People who think Buffalo is on the upswing and those who seem intent on shoving their bitter angst down the throats of others. We're all here.
What do you want?
biz - I don't think he missed her joke, but was casually commenting on the isolationism here. I don't think I've ever seen a blog besides this one that doesn't link to any other blogs or sites. Maybe some Old Media type blogs don't do that, like Buffalo News blogs, but it is very unusual for a self procalimed citizen journalist blog like this to be so insular.
This is the stupidest piece of BULL MANURE that I think Buffalo Rising has ever posted! The keys to the Outer Harbor have nothing to do with what this guy is talking about nor does it reflect the future of downtown Buffalo. The future of downtown Buffalo will include a resurgent Niagara Street but the area between Niagara and Main Street will continue to be Buffalos growing historical district. Therefore, the future of downtown Buffalo will be east toward the Central Terminal/Larking and south toward Lackawanna. Now what is bringing all the growth to the waterfront! 1) Office and Residential development, selling the incredible views and access to the water 2) History, we have grown from a short excavated and rewatered Commercial Slip to having it extended all the way to the Erie Canal and the Main/Hamburg Canal with a reconstructed Spaulding Warehouse for a Bass Pro Megaplex. 3) Industry, a resurgent Port of Buffalo, Gateway Metro Port and auxillary Port of NY/NJ at the Seneca Rail Yards creating logistical center, as well as the return of brownfields to industrial parks. So rewatering the Ohio Basin and Building a Convention & Conference Center would make sense So expanding the film and media industry in Buffalo with a Production Facility would be good for Buffalo So a replica canal boat, freight schooner, LaSalle Griffon, Adm Perry 1812 Warship and/or purchasing a smaller sister ship to the Canadiana would all make the waterfront unique Bringing Great Lakes Cruise Ships to dock in Buffalo with excursions to Niagara Falls would be good for Buffalo A waterfront museum for modern Art and Sculpture would be good for Buffalo (make the Albright Knox expand on the waterfront) Wharehouse style lofts and apartments would create density and be good for Buffalo Replacing the Route5 expressway with a boulevard and lift bridges all of these ideas are relevant to the First Ward, Inner Harbor and Outer Harbor...this guys plan reminds of a plan hatched by a bunch of hippies on pot that know nothing of Buffalo or its history or its people.
BuffaloGeek I think you missed ECBs joke regarding the kiss, the hugs then the link. Lighten up.
Pundit:
One more thing and I'll let you have the last word. I don't think we should discount learning about anyone's culture due to a lack of local ethnic density (think history). And Pat is looking for ideas so he can erase unpopular notions from his draft and substitute with things the general public likes. He said this is just the beginning...
He's inviting people to say what they want. What do you want?
Ok, I guess buffalogeek got the joke. . . didn't really appear that way, but nevertheless.
I've been to buffalo geek blog, fixbuffalo blog and Michelle Johnson blog (if that's the newsfromabroad blog) and none of those link to buffalorising. You seem to be more interested and familiar with the alleged protocol of blogroll linking, but as someone who frequents a fair number of blogs I can say that the whole notion of the blogroll seems out of date and worthless. But that's me.
@ECB said:
Long-haired hippy freaks. Census-takers. Even the ethnically intolerant. Geeks, greenies and the self-rightious. People who think Buffalo is on the upswing and those who seem intent on shoving their bitter angst down the throats of others. We're all here.
Ethnically intolerant? Bitter angst? To what / whom are you referring here?
WOW! I am excited by the fact that this article had so many posts in just ten hours! That is pretty damn cool!
Now down to my opinion of what I see going on here....(I know I'm opening myself up to be slammed here, as it seems to be the flavor of the day...) well, first of all, I like the fact that this subject can get so many people talking. That is what I like about BR...I haven't had the opportunity to check out the other blogs mentioned, so don't cut my throat about that.
Without getting personal, I've noticed a general theme that keeps resurfacing in some of these comments. Such as, (and I am not quoting, but mentioning the general tone of discussion ) 'This is Buffalo- get Real', 'Elevator to the moon', 'Dreamer', 'outdoors tourist entertainment theme will have a hard time succeeding here because 8 months of the year are too cold and windy', 'cart before the horse', hippies on pot', and a general idea that if anything that challenges many peoples thinking in WNY must have come out of either a commune, or an outsider, i.e. a 'lon gislander'. (Geez! can we get any more parochial? Which has serverd us, oh so well over these many ole' boy network decades!) That is part of the reason why 'outsiders' don't want to invest in this city. And by the way, Mr. HInchey is not an outsider. Perhaps he is a 'dreamer' ( Can you hear John Lennon in your head now?) But sometimes it takes a 'dreamer' to shake things up a bit. Hey! It got you responding in either your positive or negative, or (finally) constructive ways.
I think that was the point of Mr. Hinchey's proposal. I think this was an idea that was meant to start a constructive conversation, and not as a business proposal...(either using public, or private funds...just a conversation starter) ....nor do I think it is a 'pie in the sky' kind of idea. It seems to be (if you check out his website) a truly genuine initiation of a discussion about what we all would like to see happen in Buffalo. A Start! 'Discussion', idea sharing, community (god forbid we actually speak about community!) openhearted, and open minded discussion.
I look at Mr. Hinchey's website, and vision, and then see the posts here, and have to say a few things. When did you guys become the Good Ole Boys (and girls)? Remember, not so long ago, when an idea that was brought in that was a little bit different was shot down, with such vitriolic fervor? No discussing the points of the project that made sense, or discussing why such and such may not work, but perhaps this would. or maybe that...hey, it still goes on today, of course, but isn't that kind of thinking what many of us are feed up with?
So you don't agree with some, or perhaps any of Mr. Hinchey's ideas. I give him credit for thinking outside of the box! And, yes, there is a certain 'box' that the city is in at this point, but falling back on the ole 'because we live in an ecconomically depressed area, we can't sustain (name the issue) seems a bit like a community wide 'learned helplessness'. Yes, there are valid points to be made in that statement, but I hear it waaay too much....like we are a 'victim' city. (and yes, that can be a discussion too...) but the point of all of this discourse, is to move beyond that kind of thinking...stop bitching and moaning...or rather, start bitching and moaning in a way that actually gets things done! Get off your asses, get your hands dirty (so to speak) and come up with your own damn idea, and have the guts to put it out there, in full view for all to see. Hopefully, in working together, conflict and all, we could actually make a change, instead of just bitching about it.
I remember seeing these plans at the Hatch over the summer. Great vision, would love to see this happen. But let's get real, this is Buffalo. This would take a hundred years to do. Figure after raising that kind of money, the lawsuits, NIMBYS, Gov. hold ups etc.
Geek:
No, no. That 'what do you want?' is directed by Pat to the community at large. (See article.) If the issue is with bringing this to light, I won't apologize for it. Hell, Pat and his wife have heart.
And I dig your opinion too, believe it or not. It can't all be one flavor.
Kisses, E
THIS IS AN AMAZING PLAN! I DONT KNOW IF THIS WOULD EVER GET DONE, BUT I WOULD SUPPORT THIS PLAN 100% IF THIS IS INDEED A REALITY TYPE OF PROJECT FOR THE WATERFRONT. GREAT IDEAS AND CONCEPT!
But if developers really opposed the DOT plan and preferred some alternative, might not they have voiced objections at the multiple public hearings about it over the years? I’m just asking. I don’t know either way.
Why would they voice anything without being asked first? Uniland is always going to make money. If they do not find projects in Buffalo, they go outside of Buffalo. Additional to Uniland, most of the other developers with enough "juice" to develop out there are not in Buffalo. If the Outer Harbor is not the right decision, they just move along. There is no risk for developers and Buffalo is left with a brownfield with great access...YEA!
And yes, I remember hearing quite a few times about Mayor Brown pitching Buffalo. One time he implied a well known furniture retailer was considering Buffalo, which resulted the next day in that company taking the unusual step of explicitly denying even the slightest interest in Buffalo.
So about your question “What did the developers from California to Massachusetts say about Buffalo?”, whatever they said, I’ve no doubt the way the mayor would describe it would be very positive and very vague.
RonR, those would be good things to know but if either Higgins or Kearns had any way to realistically "show" such things, wouldn’t they have already?
The latter of things you ask of Higgins, "that not doing the boulevard alternative will not hurt development", sounds like you're asking him to prove some double negative.
If Higgins or the DOT can show interest in the land out there created by the access or that not doing the boulevard alternative will not hurt development, then I am 100% in favor of the DOT plan.
If Kearns or the waterfront collation can show that the DOT plan would somehow hinder development or that the boulevard alternative would produce better development (in terms of more taxes) then I am 100% for them.
While we are at it.. lets demand powerded sugar white beaches with cobalt blue water that is heated to a uniform 87 degrees? Let's think big... create a modern day version of the Chicago Plan of 1909...
al-alo, Nothing wrong with long hair, it would be good to get off the downers through. If you have been reading the posts on this blog you might want to keep the uppers going for just a little bit longer though. LOL : ).
FWIW: Behind The Italian Fisherman on Chautauqua Lake in Bemus Point...a floating concert platform.
Oh there's no doubt a floating concert platform is feasible. If Mr. Hinchey thinks that's an example of something that would seriously contribute to job creation and "an overall healthier economy" enough to justify taxpayer contributions then I think he's delusional.
Does he think there's some big shortage of outdoor concerts here between late May and early Sept, the only 3.5 months per year they can be held? That a floating platform gimmick will, what - draw more paying customers, lure better bands, create jobs to sell drinks and clean litter - what? If we're expected to help fund it, he'll need better answers than pointing to one behind some restaurant in Chautauqua.
But if he thinks it'd be great then he should take a chance and go for it. *He* should, not *we* should.
And the 17 fake cultural district whatevers are an even tougher sell.
wizardofza, You may feel that we need to fix our city before we attempt to create a good waterfront. I find it sad that you feel that way. I am also sad that you feel that our foundations need fixed. You see I don’t believe that the foundations of a city are based on its economy. I think the foundations of a city are based on it’s people. Yes we have lost a lot of people from our area so you may think that hurts our foundations. Let me tell you our foundations aren’t based only in the city of Buffalo proper they are tied into the rest of the WNY area. They’re built on each and every person that stays in the Buffalo area even though they could go to another area of the county and make more money and pay less taxes. If you read my previous posts you will see why I believe as I do. There are now more issued building permits in the City of Buffalo than there have been in a very long time. We have fixed up the Larkin Soap Company warehouse building, the Statler is being refurbished, there are plans for a new office tower, we are transforming our inner harbor, and not only is my plan for the out there but there are 5 others. We are sharing points of view, communicating, heck the NFTA has actually put a bike path on the outer harbor isn’t that amazing. This is all being done on Buffalo’s foundation, the backs, blood, sweat, and tears of the citizens of Buffalo and WNY. Jump on the ride now or you might miss the train. Thanks for the input though.
FWIW:
Behind The Italian Fisherman on Chautauqua Lake in Bemus Point...a floating concert platform.
http://www.italianfisherman.com/fisherman.asp?mod=article&actid=31&lang=1
BuffaloGeek -
i think the money spent to create an interchange and underpasses on the current route 5 berm precludes the removal of the skyway for a long time. The dot is not going to spend millions on these components of the project only to tear them down within 10 years. Most people do not want to wait 20 years or more for the skyway to come down.
But I agree- neither plan incorporates a street grid that considers future development. Work on that piece has begun - at least i think so - the city hired a consultant to master plan the outer harbor - anybody know anything about that?? I can't remember where that was mentioned but it was a credible source. Regardless, the DOT plan should integrate with this plan to create an outer harbor vision which is currently non-existent.
funny, wasn't there some sketch-up nonsense for the skyway over on Geek and Pundit recently....follow your own advice.
for better examples of how we should be re thinking our waterfront, we should be looking at places like this...
http://www.archnewsnow.com/features/Feature90.htm or this... http://phosnorkapages.blogspot.com/2006/08/how-baltimore-did-waterfront.html or this... http://www.toronto.ca/waterfront/ or this... http://www.landliving.com/articles/0000000618.aspx or this... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Olympic_Sculpture_Park
marina's?, i think we have those already. we need something which will truly be a draw, and something that utilizes the tallent of the best and the britest designers and thinkers around, both to design, impliment, and finance the project.
What we do not need is awakardly designed housing, mis-placed parks, squigly lines, parking lots, and strangly banal "ethinic zones". ...
on another note, i know for a fact that the albright knox considered expanding to certain buildings on the waterfront (2nd floor of the metro rail service building) but decided against it for finacial reasons. i think that was an oppourtunity missed.
Atwaterlouse, Again thanks for your comments. Your points contain a lot of validity. It would seem however that our core beliefs differ, and that’s fine, as I mentioned before it is always a good thing to be able to look at things from different points of view. You have certainly helped me to that. As you say, and I agree, there is no point to argue things item by item. That was never what this was intended to do. This was intended to see what would bring people to the outer harbor. While you have not answered my point directly you have shown me that sometimes the answer isn’t as easy as a simple answer to the question. Thank you for taking the time to carefully consider my comments. I feel that this blog has been a great success. Now anyone that reads it can see the issue from multiple points and so be able to make educated decision on the issue.
Thanks again for your cooperation,
Atwater,
I really do not think contacting developers would be hard. I am shocked that Kearns and crew have not done so already. I feel the reason why the Higgins and crew have not gotten this perspective is they do not care to hear what might be said.
I do not want to hear from John Norquist or Tim Teilman. I do not want to hear from Kearns or Higgins. The DOT has no concern for development, which is fine. It is not their job. I want to hear from those who will be asked to come and build out the outer harbor.
In 2006 there was an article in the New York Times that said "Buffalo has a new mayor, Byron W. Brown, who has aggressively pitched the city’s potential from California to Massachusetts." Does anyone else remember that? Just who did Brown talk with and just what did they say? What did the developers from California to Massachusetts say about Buffalo? I am pretty sure the Outer Harbor came up in those conversations. Maybe Casey recorded it for posterities sake. I know he likes video but.....
Back when the NFTA announced the three MEGA plans, Uniland was part of that process. Just what does Carl J. Montante of Uniland think now? Will his company consider the outer harbor once the DOT project is done? Which plan would a developer like to see? Which plan would be more likely to have them develop? Hell, it is a local call. Why can't someone in WNY interview him?
If people like Montante or someone who leads a company like Uniland says the project is great! Everyone needs to STFU..myself included. But if people like Montante come back and say the DOT plan, while providing access, is not attractive to developers...well then we should listen. That is my point.
Ron R, You have a lot of good points. I agree with you that we should first get a reason to go to the outer harbor. The whole DOT controversy along with the tearing down of the Skyway is going to go on and on for a while yet. Don’t get me wrong I believe that the Skyway should come down, and a boulevard should replace Route 5, but only after we provide for another way to get southtowns traffic to the city. I don’t address this in my plan because we should start to develop the outer harbor first. If we take the time to really look at the issues on getting down the outer harbor we find two major ones. The first issue seems to be that you can’t easily to the outer harbor when traveling the 190 from the old Ogden toll direction. This issue has been blown way out of proportion. The only thing we need to fix this issue signage. Would it be so bad to put a sign up at the Church Street exit that says “Outer Harbor this Exit”? Then another sign at the first light at the bottom of the existing ramp with a big arrow pointing to the right that says “Outer Harbor”? By following these signs you would be on the Skyway. The other big issue is the maze along the outer harbor. Now this issue is confusing. This way, that way, go around here, were lucky that people that live here can find their way to the outer harbor. Next time you’re down there think of this, isn’t Furnham Blvd and Ohio Streets wide enough for two way traffic? They are. If we were to close off all of the entrance and exit ramps north of Tifft Street and route all traffic for the outer harbor to Tifft Street we can begin to eliminate the confusion. With signage and pavement striping we could then make a right or a left at Tifft Street to go anywhere on the outer harbor we chose. Heck we could even find our way back! I know we still have to deal with the intersections north of Tifft but that is relatively easy. This solution is CHEAP, (for all of you that don’t want to spend taxpayer money) effective, and could be completed within a couple months. The only hard part is for us to get used to not getting lost out there. I also don’t consider this a permanent fix, like I said the Skyway and Route 5 should come down and good development take its place, but lets be smart about it and do it when we really need to. Personally, I would like to easily use the outer harbor NOW. If we don’t have anything better to develop once the boulevard goes in throw in your street grid and connect it to the boulevard. Somehow, I think it would be a waste of money because you have no idea what a developer will want to place out there, or how much property he will need to do it, until the developer decides to proceed. Lastly, we can wait for developers to come and do their job. If the outer harbor was free and clear from the NFTA and the hassles to building were cleared up, I would be willing to bet that Mr. Montonte would be first in line to develop the outer harbor in the fashion he has spend so much money to design already. He will also make a LOT of money. However, if his or any of the other plans submitted to the NFTA are built kiss the development of any of the surrounding area away. There will be no reason to perform any remediation of and develop a piece of property that is does not have the view of the lake or waterfront access. Especially, if it is serviced by a boulevard. Development will continue in other areas of WNY where there is good access to thruways or rail lines. Development in the city is hard enough; doing this would make it even harder for those parcels of land to be developed than it is today. However, put a major tourist attraction out there, doesn’t even have to be the plan I have shown, and developers will be building residences, hotels, and other attractions on that land. Let me know your thoughts.
RonR - I agree those would be great questions to have answered by developers, but we don't know whether either Higgins people or Kearns people have tried asking and had no meaningful response. Lack of either side claiming developer preferences one way or another doesn't mean they haven't ever inquired. If developers aren't saying, it could mean they like either approach more or less equally, or that they have no foreseeable plans regardless, or that they're cautious and don't want to be accused later of backing out on any implied actions even off-the-record.
But if developers really opposed the DOT plan and preferred some alternative, might not they have voiced objections at the multiple public hearings about it over the years? I’m just asking. I don’t know either way.
"Why would they voice anything without being asked first?"
People and companies often voice things without being asked. The whole lobbying industry is based on that. I'm surprised anybody would seriously imply otherwise. And again, we don't know they weren't asked. You keep saying they weren't but you don't know.
Of course developers have other options besides Buffalo. That's true regardless of which plan is built. But if they strongly favor one plan over another (as your premise says might be the case) and believed one plan more likely to facilitate a project that adds to their profits more so than the other plan could, that would give them a lot of motivation to voice something.
Nsphere, First you are thinking the plan shown is rigid, it is not. In fact it is very schematic in nature. It depicts parkland, how exactly it is laid out would be planned out by a landscape architect, which I am not. I show things that people have told me they want to see. Walkways that aren’t straight lines, Amphitheaters, playgrounds, park shelters, and pavilions w/ utilities. A versatile multipurpose area that would allow things like monster truck events, ice skating competitions, sand volleyball competitions etc., and rentable concession stand areas. The sports fields are also shown schematically. They will be whatever they need to be to best function, as the public needs. They are shown, as they are only to give you a sense of scale and the beginning of what could be. You are very right it may be hard to get the NFTA on board with an extension of the light rail, but if clearly explained, the potential of so many tourist passengers traveling on it should go a long way, then our voices will do the rest. You have good points about the current business located where my plan is. It is not my understanding that Nanodynamics is a water dependant business, and given the opportunity I'm sure a new location for them could be arranged. The masons sand business however is a water dependant business and so a suitable location further down the Buffalo River would need to be arranged. (Not that we don’t have a ton of vacant land down the river) I however am dead against booting them out. Keeping them in Buffalo should be of top priority. Hopefully, you can begin to see that this plan is realistic and is not intended to be a “pie in the sky” or a “silver bullet”. If we think it is we will be greatly disappointed in the end. As Denizen has mentioned earlier we have many problems we need to deal with. Thanks.
ChocolateShake, Please read my responses to the other posts. I hope you will then understand this is NOT “Pie in the Sky”. It wouldn’t hurt to check out carl’s links or any other city’s waterfront development that has been successful. You do have me though; I am not familiar with the mentioned Chicago Plan of 1909. I will have to check that out.
nyc, Please see my comments to RonR dealing with the infrastructure at the outer harbor. Thanks for your comments.
BlindeSeher, You are much like most of the people I talked to in person, the ones that have generated this plan to date. The number one response to my question from those I talked to is Green space! Everybody just wants to be able to enjoy the lake. The second response is shopping. I also agree with you that we should continue to put green space back into our city wherever we get the chance. Thanks for your comments.
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