Why, yes, tinker, I DO think that gas at $8 or $10 is going to stop a LOT of people from driving, especially the people with minimum wage jobs in suburbia, where there is no other practical access. I also think that gas supplies are going to be less reliable now that all of the world's major oil fields are tapping out. Investing in highways now is as stupid as investing in buggy whips in 1907.

chiknlil does brings up valid points:

Look forward 20 years to a point where we could have a few fortune 500 corporate offices or major sites in the business district, we need the infrastructure in place to make this happen. Mass transit and urban dwellings are great dreams; however we all know that this is a pipe dream, the City of Buffalo schools pale in comparison to our suburban counterparts, this is a limiting factor to people moving to the city. If we want them to work here, or to move here, then we need the roads in place.

Let's look forward 20 years...but let's make that look to the future from a different frame of reference, and NOT use the past 20 or even 50 years as the basis for our assumptions.  Two important differences will exist (notice I say will and not may):  First, the cost of gas.  A look at your local filling station tells us the current trend, gasoline will reach 6 dollars a gallon (remember the gasps when people talked about 3 dollars a gallon?)  This will drastically change our driving habits from the 50's and 60's when a two-car family driving their big boats around with gas at 29 cents a gallon made more super-highways seem like the right thing to do.  As energy costs go through through the roof, will people continue to move out of the city into the 'burbs?  The second difference to influence our point of view is the city becoming a desirable location to live. 

So when we make that look forward, let's not assume the next 20 years will proceed exactly as the last 20... or 50 for that matter.  We're much more informed than we used to be, we have access to so much more information than the generations before us.  We have learned from the mistakes of the "scar" and being smart people we can change our frame of reference and maybe...just maybe think about Buffalo rising.  We shouldn't assume there will be continued flight to the suburbs.  And in reversing the devastating effects of the 33 we're helping make the second point come to fruition: making the City of Buffalo a desirable place to live. 

When it costs you $100 to fill your tank, a short commute looks very attractive. It's one of Buffalo's assets we should build upon for the future.  It may seem like a pipe dream today, given what we've been through in the past 50 years.  But with the changing economy and population shift as the drought in the southwest and south continues, we need to take advantage of our assets and not make assumptions on past trends.

This shouldn't be considered a downgrade.. this would be an upgrade to the city and to the roadway. It would reconnect the largest of Olmsted's parks, it would reconnect disjointed city neighborhoods and go a LONG way to improving the air quality and quality of life for everyone.

Also it is sad that the ratings of the comments show that most people really still feel that highways connect neighborhoods and bring people into the city... sigh How many decades of the opposite need to be true because people understand that highways in any shape or size RUIN their surroundings.

I grew up with the 190 directly outside my front door and let me tell you the river, that HUGE beautiful body of water might as well have been in NJ because getting to it was annoying at best, and dangerous at worst. Highways KILL, KILL cities. end of story. The research and planning studies are out there. Why must we think like it is 1950 and the car is the end all be all of everything in our lives. Cities change transportation changes. It was a good run but the car is making us a fat, lazy, diabetic, heart attack ridden society with nothing to look forward to but more asthma, dirty waterways, congestion and car crashes.

Denizen, you sound like a student of James Howard Kunstler, who convincingly argues in "Long Emergency" why none of the alt.fuels will ever be scalable or cheap enough to replace petroleum. In my lifetime I expect to see petroleum reserved for military, law enforcement, and emergency vehicles.

If we want to burn ethanol at the rate that we burn gas, then we have to devote ALL of our arable land to fuel production. And get our food from somewhere else. Or worse, devote all of our arable land to food production and make Third World nations starve while we monopolize all of their arable land to feed our cars. We are on the threshold of committing unspeakable evil in our desperation to prop up the sacred private automobile.

Interesting off of Wikipedia (last line)

New York State Route 198 From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia Jump to: navigation, search

NY Route 198

Scajaquada Expressway Length: 3.59 mi[1] (5.78 km) West end: I-190/Thruway in Buffalo East end: NY 33 in Buffalo Counties: Erie Numbered highways in New York < NY 197 NY 199 > Interstate - U.S. - N.Y. - Reference

New York State Route 198, better known as the Scajaquada Expressway, is an United States highway entirely within the northern section of the City of Buffalo that carries over 31,000 cars per day.[2] It takes its name from Scajaquada Creek, which it parallels.

It connects the Kensington Expressway (NY 33) on Buffalo's east side with the Niagara Section of the New York State Thruway, I-190 in the Black Rock neighborhood. It was constructed in the place of the former Scajaquada and Humboldt Parkways and bisects Delaware Park.

New York State Route 198 is currently slated to be downgraded to a pedestrian-friendly roadway that is more in harmony with the surrounding communities.[3]

11111 - you have issues!

So let me get this straight: 1) Tear down the skyway 2) Create an at-grade street with stoplights and signals along the waterfront 3) reduce the speed and access from Hamburg to one 45 mile per hour boulevard. 4) Remove the Niagara Section or move it towards Military road 5) Restrict Peace Bridge traffic to non-commercial use only 6) End the Mainline Thruway at Hamburg street 7) End the Kensington at Ferry street 8) driving through the city happen on grid streets only 9) reduce the 198 to a 40 MPH boulevard with street lights and no exits (connect to the grid) 10) The 198 will end at Tonawanda street (because we will remove the Niagara Section of the Thruway) 11) Replace the grid in downtown and along Humbolt Parkway 12) Replace the grid near Buffalo General / Allen / RPCI 13) Extend the Metro to UB Amherst 14) Extend the Metro to loop to the Southtowns.

Did I miss anything?

Sounds like a winning strategy for me.

1) The reason city schools suck is because gov't forces you to go to school in the district you live in. No one in the city has a choice for a good neighborhood with a good school because of the "desegregation" rulings. Only option is to go outside the city. Upper hand: suburbs, for now. As the blight goes outward inner ring suburb school districts will feel the same pressure of an unrealistic concentration of poor and broken home students. No matter how much money you through at them, the schools will underperforms. But we rather just keep moving away from the problems instead of fixing them. We rather dump money into the problem and then complain about our tax load. Other more progressive places like Ontario have integrated govts. spread out subsidized housing. etc. Schools and areas are balanced. Drive down the street in the suburbs of St Catherines and you'll find it hard to pick out the subsidized from the unsubsidized. Here we still like to cram them all in the city and then point our fingers how messed up it is.

2) Roads do not prop up the city. They suck the life out of it. Highways further sprawl and further congestion. The easier we try to make it to drive, the more people will drive. For example: moving the Williamsville toll booths will only promote people moving farther out to Newstead/Pembroke while the city and inner ring suburbs will only see more disinvestment. At least then every can claim what a magnificent place Pembroke while asking what ever happened to Cheektowaga; such a shame.....

3) Zoning laws. Cars are no longer a "freedom". Think about it. Current zoning laws require no shared use. Want a gallon of milk? Hop in your car and burn a gallon of gas. Need to go to work: hop in the car. Want to go to the park: hop in the car. Kid needs to go to practice: hop in the car. Geez, why do I have no time to relax and am always running around? We can't live without our cars because we set up our development to require them. Even teenagers need cars right away to accomplish anything. We set things up that way, yet whine about gas prices or having 4-5 cars in the driveway when our kids grow up. I love the freedom to hop in my car and go see my best friend in Scranton. In day to day life I am a slave to it to accomplish almost any part of my day.

This road and the 33 are useless. The 190 is sufficient for access to the city. Ever been to Vancouver BC? If not look at Google earth, not one highway puncturing into the DT core. Only on the outskirt (Similar to 90 along Buffalos outer edge). Yet it is a thriving city. Maybe even because of it?

The 33 ripped a scar right down the center of a stable middle class black neighborhood and ate an Olmstead parkway. Looking at DT and the both sides of the Humboldt Parkway we can see it did zero for either. The 198 wasn't as devastating since most of it was north of Grant in an industrial area and the rest was hidden in the park from the surrounding neighborhoods. But anyone doing the 33->198 to get from 90 to 190 could easily take the 290 or go right to the 190. The only reason there is traffic on it is "because its there". Downgrade it and people will take another route.

Use the downgrade to reestablish the park, accentuate any expansion of Buff State and connect it to Amherst St in a more pleasent manner than a pedestrian bridge over a highway. We know how populat those are.

Need to get back to work....no time to spell check.

Chiknlil - Buffalo has has one of the most efficient networks of highways connecting all parts of the city and suburbs and I am not sure what great economic benefit we have seen with them in place. Secondly, the comment "limiting acces to the city core" is preferencing having people and industry outside the city sacraficing the actual city for their convienent travel to the core.

An at-grade boulevard for the 198? How'bout we call it--oh, I dunno--Humboldt Parkway?

I'm not sure if it qualifies as quibbling, but I want to echo MRogers' comment that "The Scar" better applies to the Kensington. During Taste of Buffalo I was part of the gang from Buffalo Tours showing people City Hall. Up on the observation deck, David Torke made sure to point out the Kensington to every tour group, calling it "The Scar." From that vantage point, you can clearly see that the Kensington clearly deserves prime rights to that moniker.

On the Scajaquada, I spoke with someone here in RaChaCha this past week, from one of the design/engineering firms that will be working with DOT on the redesign. This project has the potential to be a major step forward, with top-notch talent involved. I heartily agree with queenseyes: take the opportunity to get involved on the ground floor, participate heavily, and think big. Make it a damn cool project!

I am really very torn about this whole idea. You have to carefully balance two things, fast and easy transportation vs. pretty city streets. I grew up in the suburbs but have lived in the city for 6 years now, so I have seen this issue from both sides.

Fast and easy transportation: From the perspective of a suburbanite, you have to remember that the suburbanites of the Buffalo region can spend their WHOLE LIVES never entering the city. While us city folks think that this is crazy, you have to remember that from the time these people are children they are told the city is a dangerous, dirty place. Since all of the shopping, restaurants and jobs that someone from there might want are all in the suburbs why ever go to the city. Unless they are going to go to a Sabres or Bisons game, or heaven forbid a muesum, they NEVER come here. Tearing down the 33/198 would create an even greater barrier for these people. The folks from the northern and southern 'burbs wouldn't be affected so much as they typically drive the 190 or Skyway, but the eastern 'burbs would be forced to take the long way around and get on the 190 or drive through some of the city's most blighted neighborhoods on Broadway, Walden/Best, Genesee etc. I know that many people will simply choose to not do this. I had someone in form out of town and they wanted to go to the Walden Galleria (4.5 miles form the Elmwood Village on surface streets BTW) and they checked Google to get a route. Google told them to take Summer/Best/Walden all the way out. Now this is the way I take, but I told this girl that she probably wanted to take the 33/90. the 33/90 is 2x the distance, but about the same amount of time. I took her both ways, one way there and the other back. Going 33/90 out of the city is nice clean well maintained highway. Going Summer/Best/Walden is nice until Summer Street turns into Best @ Main. You then immediately enter a stretch of 4 miles that is littered with abandoned / falling down (literally) buildings. She was very happy that I showed her the highway route and said that she woudl NEVER take the Best/Walden route again.

Pretty City Streets:

I absolutely hate the fact that we destroyed Humboldt parkway. Every time I drive down the 33 "canyon" just past the 198 split I imagine Bidwell/Chapin/Lincoln parkways, digging up the park land in the middle and running a highway down it. This is basically what they did to Humboldt easily seen on this stretch with the street running on either side of the 33.

I also try to picture what Agassiz Circle must have looked like every time I sit at the Parkside light on the 198. I still remember the first time I heard that there used to be a traffic circle there, like gates circle. Even with the little of it remaining, I can't picture it there and wish I could.

I also wish that they could put the two halves of Lincoln parkway back together again, severed by this 198 scar. It would be so nice to drive a car where only bikes and ped traffic can go now.

We hear stories about how cities like San Franscio and others have torn down highways and it has worked to further they city. I hope that this is something that can come about on Buffalo too. This is just my opinion, but I think that if we tear down these highways now, in a city that has an image problem with its own suburbs and almost no cache, we will just further this image problem and take away some more of the small cache left in saying "I live in Buffalo". Can you picture 55 year old Richie Rich couple, living in Amherst driving all the way in to the city on Best Street? How about coming all the way down Main? Sure, some of Main is nice, but really the people who have the money in suburbia that we so desperately want to have spent in the city will not make the drive through blighted neighborhoods. They will simply stay in suburbia and the demand will create all of these city attractions in the suburbs and further gut the city.

If we do decide to do this, we need a plan to create corridors through these blighted neighborhoods for people to travel through. I'm not sure where the money would come from, but maybe from the money saved on highway maintenance.

RD666, I totally agree and love the analogy of the car dissolving cities and neighborhoods. When I was in Rome a couple of summers ago it is painfully obvious the amount of damage that city has sustained from the introduction of cars into it. The corners of almost every buildings were chipped and broken. The city was literally being sanded by reckless drivers.

I also don't see the car going anywhere because of its perceived freedoms but at the same time we need to realize that the car is fostering a nation that has forgotten how to live without its convenience. I just got into an argument for wanting to walk 3 block, 3 BLOCKS! by the time you start the car, drive three blocks and find a parking spot you are almost home again.

It is also a social issue, we spend so much of our time alone, in a car we are in a bubble from society. Take into effect that people have extended this phenomena of being 'alone' outside of the car by the ubiquitous use of ipods / mp3 players / cell phones. Then both of these are in relation to the suburbanization of society. People living in ticky tacky homes, with huge lots and little interaction with neighbors and I really feel like we have forgotten how to be civil and lost our trust in our society. We are left to fill our understanding of people from TV and Movies perpetuating many stereotypes. It even comes down to most people I know wont even answer their doorbell... unless someone calls their cellphone (from a number they know) it is obviously a criminal and a dangerous situation. We need to be able to trust people and most people are perfectly trustworthy, but alone in a car listening to the blood sells news, on a highway does none of this. Yes this is a little ranty and perhaps off topic but the car phenomena has changed our values in life.

We had a world class park system, a work class downtown but yet we convinced ourselves they were worthless and the CAR should trump all.

The Scajaquada isnt needed and frankly neither is the Kensington.

The scajaquada can easily be replaced by putting traffic on the many east/west running streets from Hertel, Kenmore, Amherst, Ferry, Delevan and others.

Just one thing you forgot, becker: gas just topped $3 a gallon. Before long it'll be $5 a gallon. Who wants to break the news to the DOT, the poor dears? They're incapable of imagining, much less planning for, a post-highway world.

Plurals do not have apostrophes and nver have. It is "photos," not "photo's."

chiknlil, if Buffalo State adds 20,000 or 30,000 students then the NFTA can reactivate the Beltline for Light Rail and connect Buffalo State to UB, Canisius, Medaille, ECC, downtown and it would be a huge boon for the eastside and the westside and downtown!

The 198 and the 33 are useless. I timed the drive from downtown--delevan via the 33 adn via humbolt parkway, the difference in time was 2 minutes (granted this was late at night with no trafffic). I then timed the drive from the 33-90 interchange via the 33 and via the 190, the 190 was 1 minute slower then the 33. What I'm saying is it would not incresae the comute that significantly if they just got rid of the 33 along the humbolt parkway section. people could still use humbolt parkway if they wanted, or just take the 190. this along with turning the 198 into a parkway would return the olmsted system back to waht it once was. theh 198 cannot be completely scrapped because there is no existing route across the north of the city. turning it into a parkway is the best bet.

A "few" things that come to mind regarding the 198 to assist in beautifying it- 1) Bring back the circle at Agassiz 2) Get rid of that ugly guard-rail in the middle of the road way, replace with trees and gardens 3) Reduce the speed limit to 35-40 4) Replace the lights with the old style lights --- same ones on Main and Hertel 5) Fix the rest of the bridges, similar to Grant St Bridge 6) An interesting idea regarding the road signs - use brown road signs instead of green ones.

I realize that the 198 was a major mistake, but making the best of this mistake might be the only thing that can happen to go in the right direction.

Hoss - Did ridership return to normal after Katrina? I am not being a pain in the ass; however I consistently see near empty buses and metro train cars. I can't remember the last time that my morning train had more than 20 - 30 other riders, it is almost never standing room only unless there is a game or special event somewhere.

Hoss - Did ridership return to normal after Katrina? I am not being a pain in the ass; however I consistently see near empty buses and metro train cars. I can't remember the last time that my morning train had more than 20 - 30 other riders, it is almost never standing room only unless there is a game or special event somewhere.