To all who were asking about if this is Sketchup: Yes it is, with some Photoshop to incorporate them into the existing surroundings.
Some of you also have concern about the bedroom situation: A study in each of the living spaces can be used as a second bedroom in all of the apartments, and some are honest-to-god two bedrooms as well. These units are similar to Webb lofts to those who are familiar with the project.
Denizen is right. The most beautiful and welcoming and livable cities, ones that embody all three qualities, have building heights that pedestrains can relate to. We need more tasteful projects like this to seed downtown's population.
Since moving to Buffalo from New York City in 2003, I have never understood why this section of Main Street has sat in such urban decay. The fact that a Burger King restaurant, located in close proximity, could not even survive is telling. This project is long needed to boost the economy and the area. I am happy to see progress in motion.
Well put, Denizen and QE. This is one of the best blocks of Main Street because it is not ruptured by surface parking lots. That connected street wall counts for a lot, as do windows and activity at street level. Sacrificing those two things for "convenient" parking and blank walls is one of the most effective ways to kill your downtown.
Well the failure of a Burger King and McDonalds in our downtown I feel sheds light on the priorities of residents in this area. If we have options to support a local store we will take it. It isn't like there are no places to go to eat downtown, there are tons so I saidgood bye and good riddance to these two establishments long ago.
GREAT! Love the balcony, wish we had more. And I'm so glad these are appartments, for the retail on main st or the rest of downtown to develop people need to live there. Trees would be a nice addition. And i too must say lets fill in the holes before we think about going sky high.
This is HUGE!!! Tragically, that block of Main Street is what a lot of the guests at the Hyatt remember during their stays in Buffalo. This will certainly help change people's perception of Buffalo.
This is great news, people who go down to Thursday at the square, and suburbanites who park at UB South and take the train to the arena will see Buffalo in a new light.
I have lots of respect for Rocco and think he's a good businessman.
RPreskop---Let's agree that beauty is in the eye of the citydweller. We have opposite tastes in urban streetscapes, so I hope you someday live happily in an eclectic, high- rise, low -rise, mid-rise jungle and I'll stay where I am. But since we can't all agree on what makes a city beautiful and livable (and Jane Jacobs is not the final word on that), all I ask is that we don't assume that a city MUST have this sacred mix of old and new, of high, low, and mid to survive, impress or inspire. It should not surpise you that the skyline of central Paris has not changed substantially in 200 years, and yet it continues to be a rather vibrant city, no? Closer to home, Washington D.C, in my eye by far the most stunning American large city, has no buildings over 12 stories. It, too, has a lively neighborhood culture. Buffalo, in its historic design of 1804 (I think), and in its boulevard textures and older materials, has much in common with D.C, and I think Buffalo's future depends on a careful integration of this architectural texture with new development, not on a laissez-faire, "let the city just organically grow" approach. Otherwise, why don't we just be Columbus, or Cleveland, or CIncinatti, or Minneapolis, or Portland, or whatever latest city du jour. So, you can say you wish this were a midrise building and that we had more sky ticklers, but you can't insist that this is the ONLY way for a city to grow and be vibrant. It works for some cities, but I don't think it's the right recipe for keeping Buffalo unique while making its pulse more resonant.
One thing that could do this project justice is the addition of at least one more floor to the building. Too many in a row all the same height. If the market is so hot, why not go a little bigger. It's not like the project is that big to begin with. Also, it is MainStreet - it deserves a little more.
RP, I agree that Chicago's skyline is a heck of alot more interesting. I think Chicago also is a good deal more vibrant and economically stable than Buffalo right now. One of the reasons that a city begins to "build up" is that it has finally finished "filling in" open lots and the streetscape. There has to be a reason for a developer to build a high-rise building, and creating more office space - no matter if it's class A, B or C doesn't seem to be a huge priority for developers in WNY, unless an anchor tennant (such as BlueCross/Blue Shield) is looking for a new location. Loft style apartments are where the money is. Hoss makes a great point about the need for apartments large enough for families though, creating a sustainable core.
On buffalonews.com this article is nestled in the bottom of city and region benith a robery, fraud case, stabbing, and a drive by. i think buffalo's next development should be to run the buffalo news out of town. oh but the article did say that the apartments on main will be one bedroom... BOOOOOOO
We cant think of Buffalo as just 300K people. This area has grown continuously outward and many of downtowns activities are supported by suburban Buffalonians. All the sudden its a fifferent story because with this perspective Buffalo has like a million people. Lets not foget that we should compare the size of our urban area with the geographical size of the Dallas' of the world that can and has annexed much more land. If we stay within the municipal boundaries we arent truly doing the size of Buffalo justice. It must be on a level playing field with those cities that captured suburban growth. Buffalo can have a much more vibrant downtown than it does now and some high rise development would be nice.
One further thought...I do think a fourth floor over the center section would be great. That would allow for roofdecks over the 3 floor buildings. Those would be the greatest decks in the city!
Newell, thanks. Although this doesn't quite match the 4 story minimum I outline, this development (at least judging by these sketchup renderings) looks great; a vast improvement over what currently sits on this particular block.
RPreskop, as I said in the previous post, you need to understand how market economics work in a struggling downtown like Buffalo. Very tall buildings only really make sense when there is a severe shortage of undeveloped land. Obviously in DT Buffalo this is anything but the case. Our vast sea of parking lots need to be filled in first with modest buildings. Once vacant spaces run out then we can talk about building up.
Also I don't buy your idea that Buffalo's image is dependent on having a busy skyline. People visit and chose to locate in cities for a variety of reasons. If there are many interesting neighborhoods to walk around people will flock, no matter how tall or short the buildings are. The most enjoyable areas of Manhattan to hang out in are the neighborhoods lined with 4-8 story buildings, not the skyscraper canyon office districts; the latter are an essential component of the city's economy (lack of space dictates this land use) but not the most socially appealing aspect. Just about every hipster wannabe I came across in NYC would always say "I never go anywhere above 14th st".
Steel, way to bitch about seemingly negligible aspects of this project. Let's see your stab at it in sketchup.
RPreskop-^^ so become a developer and build a tower. you are talking like $50million is a drop in the bucket for any developer, its not. and in regards to your major city comment, I think when people stop considering Buffalo as a major city then a lot of the negative perceptions of buffalo will be diluted. We have 300k people, thats not a major city but a mid-sized city. What other 300k person cities do you know of that have these vast skylines you are talking about? Washington, Newark, Rochester, Richmond, Anchorage, Spokane, Birmingham, Baton Rouge, Des Moines; all comparable in size to Buffalo and all have skylines comparable to Buffalo
Good stuff, but why match the neighboring cornice lines? Breaking the relative monotony of the block with a varigated elevation would give this development some visual pop. Contextualism is fine for the French Quarter or Society hill, but this is Buffalo...where the 'wow factor' still works.
Great, so that ghetto clothing store (JP''s) will be gone? They only offered oversized clothing for the over wieght and hip hop crowd....What about EVERYONE ELSE? I hope a RETAIL marketing plan will be in place for the first level of this project as well for the rest of downtown that lacks any shopping.
Ok this is more like it! This project is exactly what dt needs. I wish people would see the need for reopening Genesee St and Mohawk Sts to reconnect this area and provide better access to this development. Main st will soon have cars riding along it once again too! IMAGINE an area filled with activity with cars and people once again able to use genesee street again and that deplorable excuse for a park (East Mohawk) replaced with direct access to the booming Deleware Avenue area (New Era, Statler, and the old Dulski building. The blocking off of these streets by the outdated convention center and Hyatt walkway and Atrium and more recently the expanded Belesario parking lot which I believe teh city is leasing to Carl Paladino is a major cause as to why downtown has become such the desolate dead place it is at the present time. Pearl street has become a one way speeding deathtrap on the stretch between Huron and Court st. The benefits are obvious. Our city's award winning Comprehensive Master Plan stresses the importance of our streets and reconnecting the Radial street network downtown! Why cant our leaders have any vision. Property values would most definelty rise along with increased activity around the area. Millions of dollars are about to be put into the Hyatt in renovating the entire hotel this will clearly end any chance of reclaiming Genesee St! We as Buffalonians have a duty to see these streets reclaimed. Genesee was once one of the greatest streets in buffalo. Imagine walking or driving down Genesse st from the electric building down to Niagara square ( you can actually see what it would look like form Roosevelt square). It would be arguably the most beautiful street in buffalo besides Main st with the Belesario , YMCA building, a renovated Hyatt and renovated Statler all in a continuous streetscape. This is so doable and will most definetly aid this future development along with spurring other developments. Please people lets fix our past mistakes and reclaim our historic Ellicott radial streets! They are what made our city great in its early years and can make us the great city we were meant to be in the future once again by making the mess that is driiving around downtown a more pleasant and friendly experience.
As for the other debate: high rise vs low rise.
Look at these pictures of then and now: http://wnyheritagepress.org/photos_week_2007/iroquois_hotel/iroquois_hotel.html
Which would create more life and interaction? Today in Buffalo I'd rather have 8 blocks of 5 story buildings filling in our missing teeth and continuity rather than one 40 story building on one block. Even 4 - 10 story ones built up to the street. It's these types of buildings which will create an interaction and movement of people up and down Main St. It will also allow the sun to hit the street for more of the day without the need for deadening plazas. If we do grow again some day these can be bought, knocked down and replaced with a skyscaper. If we grow to 1 million plus residents we can start throwing up high rise condos every block. Now if they could only figure out condos for the middle class.....
If Issa is able to find tenants for the Buffalo City Tower to build it I'll very happy to have that cool new factor around. But in the meantime it's infill and rehab developments like this that have me feeling good about a realistic healthy turnaround in the downtown.
You have to admit that this exactly what Main Street needs. This is perfect and part of what the planners envisioned when Main street was built this way. Fill Main street with more of these loft / commercial mixed use and people might actually stop saying the metro rail was a poor idea. Put the high rise buildings on the waterfront.
Fantastic. Hopefully they won't all be one room bachelor/empty-nester pads. 2-3 bedroom apartments are what families need. Having a diverse age group in a downtown core will help keep it lively for generations to come. Toronto is having an issue with this as we speak. Downtown schools are closing because of the lack of real youth and families. Hopefully Buffalo and it's developers will wise up before it's too late.
It's really incredible. It seems like every week, a new multi-million dollar project is being announced. Just you wait, Buffalo's gonna be the next Williamsburg.
Now to bring outsiders here, we just have to further optimize Buffalo's quality of life. All we need are better schools, some ice skating in the park, a few more bike lanes, and that downtown public skatepark. For real. The demise of violent crime and corrupt politicos wouldn't hurt either. But that's a given.
these buildings are nice looking after the rehab, and the investment seems small compared to the amount of change in store. The parking garage is more then most apt rehab proposals, and this is the kind of project that needs to reach out into the community. The proposal reminds me of a mix of artspace and the elmwood hotel. It could use a tad bit more investment to help confer its identity and if only the cost of the parking garage was matched to provide a stronger character towards our burchfieldian lust. They could use a 4 story rounded front facade on that tiny brick dump on the corner of mohawk.
To all the people on here that think that just because they want a tall building with more residential or commercial space than the market can support I say 1) take Economics 101 at UB (you might want to take it pass fail) or 2) put up your own money and build it. If the demand was there it would get built. This project is a damn sight better than the way the block is today. I am not a something is better than nothing person. A harmonious streetscape is needed here. This project accomplishes that.
When the demand for a high rise is there it'll get built. Remember this project isn't going in on the only available land downtown. The city looks like a mouth that is missing half its teeth. Getting those gaps filled in is paramount to creating a vibrant cityscape. I am not mormally a fan of fake period buildings but here they seem to fit right in.
The city deperately needs to landscape these blocks. In that I completely agree with a previous post. Also the garage shown here doesn't look bad at all. Washington Street in this area has always been more or less a back alley to Main. At least this ramp gives the illusion of being something other than what it is.
PLEASE let the rumor about the Genesee block be true!!!
Overall great project but needs some more foresight:
1. Is another parking structure proposed for the corner of Washington & Mohawk needed directly across the street from a pre existing parking garage (Mohawk Ramp)? I know this section of the downtown core needs additional structured parking but let’s make sure that the proposed parking structure includes some small retail space (Dunkin Donuts New Chip location size maybe) on the first floor and even a few residential units above.
2. I'm pretty sure the renderings for the infill facades are just quick releases. I hope they are at least. Rocco, please don’t put up any more faux period buildings like the infill on Ellicott Street next to the Washington Market. The buildings that were renovated there look fantastic but the infill "new urbanist" buildings are less than attractive and all of the decorative frilly stuff on the front looks comical at best. Main Street could sure use some modern looking low level elevations. Maybe something along the lines of the new M&T building on Delaware for an architectural style?
3. Some type of tower would be most appropriate in the proposal. Maybe this can be achieved by the addition of residential units above the proposed parking structure? Some height in the rear of the complex would compliment the already tall Holling Place and Carmina & Woods buildings.
4. I also agree that a mix of low and high rise structures can be beneficial to the image and workings of a downtown area (esp. in North America Towline) as we have, for right or wrong, become accustomed to this dichotomy. This particular site runs along downtown's Main Street. Doesn’t' it make sense to have high density / higher rise in the core and have lower density units as you move outward - say to Ellicott, Elm, Oak and beyond.
5. Lastly, Its damn easy for me to say all of this when it’s not my dollars on the line. Good luck Rocco and take note of some of the great comments on BRO. BRO, thanks for providing this amazing forum!
I also must agree that continuity is much more important is creating a great city than pizazz. Rome, Paris, Munich are not created from stunning pieces of architecture they contain many, continuous good buildings. They provide for opportunities through options. A tower in a park are nice to look at from afar but when it comes to people spaces and vibrancy you never find it in the shadow of huge buildings. You find it in the smaller off streets where people feel comfortable. Think Empire Plaza in Albany, think, of the many empty places in Manhattan, then look at Greenwich Village, SoHo or the many other vibrant neighborhoods.
Comfort is one of the things that Downtown Buffalo has been lacking for decades. We have build towers in every decade since the 50's. HSBC, M&T, Key Towers, Dulaski... none of which reall make downtown more appealing for those on the street. They add a mass and scale that does add to the overall appeal but towers in a park(ing lot) are not something to be proud of. Remember that 50% of our downtown is still made up of streets and parking lots. The stuff that doesn't provide for anything to do, or reason to go there.
This area of downtown is actually parking deprived, the garage across the street has a rather large waiting list i hear so the addition of a structured ramp, with retail or residential built into it is a very smart move. It will pay the bills until the rest of the units are complete and as long as it actually has a smart and connection to the street for the pedestrian go for it! We can also think of this ramp as one goo reason to REMOVE THREE other surface lots. We don't need more parking downtown, we just need to organize it a little better.
Good project Rocco!! Good luck and good project!
Love the project, LOVE IT. I just hope that some ********GREENERY******** will be added. With the massive sidewalks dominating the 500 block landscape, some greenery would SO improve the overall appearance of the block. Look at downtown Rochester - their Main Street is basically an entire vacant storefront, but it's so green with plants and flowers, that it's the most beautiful vacant Main Street possible!
We have to reconnect the city street grid....I think we stand a better chance of getting genessee street open after the convention center relocates and they start ....that will start the discussion on reopening streets.
and I definitely agree that downtown Buffalo Streets need massive plantings of trees!
Sorry for going off topic but I just thought that since this development is literally smack dab in the middle of where I am talking about and I truly believe that for what seems like not that important of an issue it could possibly bring with it a total transformation of that area. Hey It might even actually get the eyesore that is the genessee block developed finally! and yea i kno about the new plans but ill beleieve it when i see it! lol
based on the rendering, the parking structure facing Washington appears to have significant elements that compliment the urban streetscape. Lets hope that these elements aren't just faux attempts at being urban, but include some ground floor commercial spaces as well. especailly with the uncertainty of cars returning to main street, i think the Washington side of this project has just as much if not more potential for at least a few retail spaces to succeed.
Denizen, I do not buy your unacceptable idea of cluttering prime downtown land with little rinky-dink three and four story buildings. Granted our economy is depressed and demand for downtown space is highly questionable and there is too much empty land covering by asphalt pavement that still does not mean that we cannot build tall on one or two of these empty downtown sites. Tall buildings if done right do help attract business and investment into a stagnant area providing that everything is done right. Skyscrapers are among the most attractive and most inviting buildings and they greatly contribute to the much needed critical mass. Your idea of build small first and then tall later on will not necessarily revitalize the downtown core. Sometimes you have to take a big gamble and be bold and build big. It is the big things that obviously attract the most people. This is the whole problem with Buffalo, they build almost everything too damn small and it ends up becoming inadequate in a decade or two. We are a major city, it is time to design, build, and act like a major city and not like some little backwater. It is time to discard the small scales and the baby steps and start doing things right for a change in this city. Otherwise Buffalo will never recover from the severe urban crises that still grips it and its economy will continue to be depressed. Your most successful and most livable major cities have a mixture of low-rise, mid-rise, and high-rise buildings and that is a proven fact. Your best and most beautiful city centers are found in Asia, Australia, and the Americas. Buffalo needs to get its act together and stop wasting time and valuable resources on just little, trivial projects and start doing something big and bold. It is time to learn from other cities, not copy them but learn from them, especially cities that Buffalo has a lot in common.
EricOak, Denizen is dead wrong. The most beautiful and vibrant city centers are ones with a variety of building types and building heights. Look at major cities throughout the US that are far ahead of us in downtown living they have low-rise, mid-rise and high-rise all in close location to one another which adds variety and makes it more visually and aesthetically pleasing. Keep in mind that not all pedestrians relate to the exact same thing, we are individuals and we are all differant from one another with differant tastes, opinions, and feelings. This project is all right as far as I am concerned but a high-rise tower would have been a much wiser and more aesthetically attractive providing that it is designed and built properly. Keep in mind that a stagnant never-changing skyline percieves the city as dying and declining. Having all buildings at one scale is monotonous and uninteresting. Downtown needs a couple new high-rise additions however we need to do something about our stagnant economy as well before we pursue any of these new projects. But that is a discussion for another time.
As far as I am concerned to get this derelict downtown block redeveloped right, lets sell this block to the Seneca Nation of Indians and allow them to build their third gambling casino with possible high-rise luxury hotel on this site. There you will have some economic activity and I am more than sure that the Senecas will design and build something far more aesthetically attractive than the shitty looking, rinky- dink garbage that ol' Rocko boy Termini wants to clutter on this site. The Seneca Casino will also help increase ridership on the light rail which I am sure the NFTA would love the revenue. Wasn't the Seneca Casino supposed to go right in downtown in the first place rather than near the Perry Projects. Why not place the Seneca Casino right on Main Street.
Looks good. Perfect plan, lets hope it comes true. Now the Genesee block. Two questions: 1. Is there an atrium in the middle between main and the parking garage? Looks like there is some sort of open area from the rendering, which would be cool. 2. When the hell are the cars coming back to Main st. It's been quiet for awhile. Last I heard they were supposed to start last spring, then they pushed it back another year. Anyone have any info?
some pictures from the WNY Heritage Press:
http://wnyheritagepress.org/photosofweek/mohawk_washington/mohawk_washington.htm
speaking of the high rise element is Issa's Tower still in the works? Is it really going to be called the Buffalo City Tower? The height of it hasnt been scaled back like the Adlephia Tower has it????
Slick Do nothing Byron Brown skirted the answer on cars on main steet when WGRZ asked him about a month ago. Actullay I am wrong - he gave an answer that was so vague he may have kept his mouth shut.
I also would like to know where these cities with all this speculative high rise commercial space is being built are? I travel non-stop and the only cities that I can think of with high rise office buildings going up right now are Dallas, Charlotte, Philadelphia and NYC. I don't intend that to be an exhaustive list rather it is just what I have seen. In each of these none of buildings are purely "build it and they will come" speculative. Those days are over in both commercial and residential construction. They all have major anchor tennants in tow. There is no way any bank would provide financing any other without. Rpreskop do you think that developers use their own money to finance thse projects? Never.
Oh - are Carmina & Wood the firm that resides in the renovated old Mcdonald's at the corner of Main and Mohawk? It would be cool if they did the design work for a project right next door to them.
Spaulding: To correct you this is the Washington side of the project. To answer your questions: (1)There will be an entrance alleyway which is fully planted and secured from the Mohawk Street Side. This will connect the rear of the Commercial Spaces and well as give an Entraceway for the Aparment Tenants Secured from the Street Level and Parking Garage Level(s) (2) I have not information on the Car returning to Main Street, but we are in great anticipation of its commencement.
I've heard the failure of fast food in that building had little to do with business, but rather conditions of the building - rats and such. I was quite a busy place during the workday. Don't know the facts about it, however.
Will retail have faith to start filling these first floors or will it be necessary to establish more office space that interacts less with the street? Is a critical mass of retail likely to happen in downtown yet or must more residential show up? What about security downtown? With new residential do we see added police protection for the new residents down there or are they best just to hide indoors from the hours of 6pm to 6am? Will retailers feel safe operating down there yet? Dont give me an example of just one or two retailers who are trailblazers downtown, tell me about the likelihood of many retailers risking investment dollars and heading into downtown. I'm not saying one way or the other but I wonder what y'all think? I see many buildings coming back to life but first floors still remaining fairly uninspiring and un- or under-utilized. Jut look at the space on the first floor of 665 Main Street. That fairly new building is located in the theater district and is filled to capacity with office tenants on the upper floors but since it was built the ground floor retail/restaurant space has remained empty. The LLBerger spaces on the first floor are either office space or empty as well with the exception of Get Dressed ( very small storefront) that I heard was relocating anyway from that site. Right now downtown buildings support some restaurants (some much better than others) and some drug stores.
Bizzles - you're right about Carmina & Wood. I've been inside their building a couple times and it's really neat. They redeveloped the 5th and 6th floors and have been working on attracting another tennant for the 1st floor, which used to be a restaraunt. The 2-4th floors are open for office space I think... Talk about working to improve your own neighborhood!
We cant think of Buffalo as just 300K people. This area has grown continuously outward and many of downtowns activities are supported by suburban Buffalonians. All the sudden its a fifferent story because with this perspective Buffalo has like a million people. Lets not foget that we should compare the size of our urban area with the geographical size of the Dallas' of the world that can and has annexed much more land. If we stay within the municipal boundaries we arent truly doing the size of Buffalo justice. It must be on a level playing field with those cities that captured suburban growth. Buffalo can have a much more vibrant downtown than it does now and some high rise development would be nice.
Andrew you rebutted RPreskop's comment quite well. Good point about the common misconception of Buffalo still being a large city.
RP, that block is obviously anything but "prime" downtown land if it's currently lined with vacant storefronts and other derelict uses. When you want to get into the development business yourself, you're more than welcome to try and get a bank to loan you the $$$ to build a 30-story condo tower in "prime" downtown Buffalo.
Oh and Eric, good observation about DC...a very pleasant city to stroll about. I wouldn't necessarily say it's the most exciting of large American cities, but it definitely ranks up there in terms of architectural continuity with the other few NA cities like Montreal and Philadelphia which defy the norm of highly idiosyncratic urban fabrics.
Enough of that Seneca crap too.....
Offer anybody a tax and regulation free plot of land with the only "tax" being 25% of the slot revenue and watch the proposals come in and buildings go up. And watch how the competition between these new places notch up the quality too.
Offer any establishment the ability to offer entertainment, liquor etc but only pay a portion of some slot machines and watch investment in their establishments skyrocket.
Let make every block its own sovereign nation. Of coarse stuff will get done....
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