I just hope they do something soon. I think bass pro is a great thing to have down there and i dont really care where as long as other urban developments w/ national and local retail come with it and the aud comes down or leaves the 70's. And I really hope that MASSIVE parking lot (webster block?) in front of the arena gets developed. what wasted space.
Off topic, yes, but the coloring (and every piece of architecture) in that photograph really makes the shot look like it was taken in 1972.
People are talking about tourists and such. How it takes years to develop a tourist base. Think about other cities throughout the country and what they offer : Louisville and the Kentucky derby, Indy and the Indy500, New Orleans and Marti Gras, Boston on the 4th with the pops, San Fran and the trolley cars, Phily and the liberty bell etc. What do these cities have? Tradition and history. What Buffalo can only offer as history and tradition is/was the Erie Canal. That is what we were known for. But the canal no longer exists. What would the city be like today if it were still around? I'm sure we would not be having this discussion. We need to bring back the history, tradition and the culture. All those cities were unique and stood apart in their own way. All Buffalo's ideas have been used before from other cities. We really need to get this right and make it happen. THEN the tourists will come, it will take time, but it would work because of the history and tradition.
It would have been held up by Federal Transit Reviews and Historic Preservation Reviews anyway due to Federal regs...please name the rest of the projects that tielman has held up as well.
Buffalo has a LOT to offer to tourists. The biggest problem is that the rest of country only knows us for snow and 4 straight Superbowl losses. We had friends visit us from Chicago, and they were amazed how much Buffalo (and WNY) has to offer. We have some stunning and significant architecture, (the remnants of) an Olmsted park system, museums, galleries, nightlife, wonderful (non-franchised) restaurants, independent retailers, usually fantastic summers and falls, there are many things that our Chamber of Commerce/tourist office could be pushing. Not to mention the affordability. If Buffalo ran ads in the specialty magazines (cooking mags, architecture mags, art mags, scenic mags, shopping mags, etc) touting our offerings, we would probably get more tourists. One thing Buffalo can/should/could do that Chicago does: Offer a one-day pass (at a slightly discounted price) that covers all their museums. And the CTA offers all-day transportation passes, too. That was a terrific way to get the people from the ‘burbs into the city. I love it here; my husband and I chose to return to Buffalo when we were ready to start our family. We just hope that Buffalo gets it right this time (not just Bass Pro, but in general). We will be here to help any way we can. Oh, and as far as using ideas from other cities, we should use them when it's proven they work, I think.
Judi - We are well aware of IKEA and would welcome their investment... one problem... IKEA doesn't want to invest in Buffalo, we fall short on minimum population requirements, minimum income standards, and quality of life requirements. To date, Bass Pro has been the only recent national chain interested in investing in the waterfront. We talk about local stores and national chains that could move there, but the harsh reality is that most just aren't interested at this time. IKEA is included in that group.
The only area of WNY that comes close to the minimum requirements for IKEA is Amherst, near Transit or MIllersport, and only if we factor in all UB students as full time residents. The problem is that Amherst will only support a big box build on Transit or NFB, their recent move to block WALMART has sealed the fate of any other large store off those strips. Maybe some day we will have all our ducks in a row, but for now it is Bass Pro or Nothing, and a quick drive to Hamilton for IKEA.
Genghis hit the nail on the head.
This whole inner harbor development has become comical. Just look at the Bass Pro timeline and tell me that you aren't laughing hysterically. So does this mean that Higgins and Brown are pulling rank on the great ECDHC? Who is calling the shots?
PS Note to Tielman...enjoy your greenspace because I can almost guarantee that nothing will ever get developed on the whorehouse/sleazy bar historic site other than grass and weeds.
Auburner...Why do we need a park on the inner harbor site? Have you visited this area at all? There is a brand new park right next door(along with great memorials to the veterans who have served the country) and the Erie Basin Marina is a stones throw away. So why is it so important to take this most important piece of waterfront property and plant grass on it?
Yes, Wow, (a non sarcastic) thanks Tim Tielman and preservationists (a word used derisively by frustrated people who have no foresight) saving yet ANOTHER half-assed misdirection of squandered resouces and serioulsy thinking about the future AND the past in Buffalo development.
Brokeepsblockingme- How about the very long list of projects that have gotten done? Ya got to be fair and balanced.
I only wish I had the money to buy property while it is still inexpensive. It would be a great investment now and in the future.
Look at Florida, California, Nevada and Arizona- people are losing their shirts on real estate (well- those that got in right before the bubble bursting).
In 5 to 10 years Brokeepsblockingme- you will wish you had invested in this city as well. As far as this site- in 5 years- it will look and feel much different... in 10 years it will be hard to recognize it except for the exceptional street grid and some of the numerous historic buildings downtown is known for.
There is momentum downtown and it will only grow stronger.
42nate - My counter to you is you do not open up in Buffalo UNLESS there is something. I mean, do you have any idea just how bad the business climate in WNY is compared to other areas?
Steel - I agree. For some reason I am really confident that the Aud site will soon be a waterfront lot.
As for the people who are already calling the project a bust, you have to see the greater vision. The canal district is the first in a line of projects. Because it is the first and Buffalo is the equivalent of a busted crack whore when it comes to development, there needs to be a lot of incentives. Once this area is done, if it ever gets done, you will see development move North and South. I think South first to the cobblestone district. You will still see some public money there but not as much as the canal. Maybe some money for Wegmans to locate downtown or something like that.
This is a FIRST STEP. It should not have taken this long and because it has a lot of people think it is the ONLY step.
Upswing? LOL this site will look exactly the same in 5 years... 10 years... and beyond...Just more posturing and no waterfront development... save for a museum that noone will go to...
How about dropping the Donovan office building as planned and putting Bass Pro there? We really need to move on this though because if I were Bass Pro I would be feelnig ab it fed up at this point and inclined to walk. Put Bass Pro on the Donovan site and get rid of the Aud building and extend the commercial slip onto that site and Bass Pro then gets water brought to its front door via the commercial slip? Develop the land all around the canal on the aud site with Bass Pro as the terminus of the canal. Then do something with that Webster Block. lets get some significant development down there. One and two floor buildings arent good enough in Downtown. Leave the lower rise "historic" feeling buildings to develop near the unearthed canal.
After reading the comments about the article it amazes me that the comments are mostly negative. Those who complain that Buffalo is so bad only contributes to it. I for one am hopeful (yes, hopeful) that because Bass Pro has decided to change their location this project can now move forward without further delay. Even if Bass Pro does not get built, at the very least the canal project can be completed in fairly quick succession.
To whom ever made this possible, thank you.
You naysayer's are going to be astounded by Buffalo's comeback in the coming years. I have never felt more proud of a city and those who strive to make it better each and every day! The level of grass-roots activisim is unparalleled in this country. The people who live here and those who are drawn to this city can and will move mountains- politicians and government be damned (meaning that we are not going to wait for them to do their jobs).
This article is a success story yet it was treated with such negativity. Begin to believe again.
Peace out.
Conversation in California never actually heard... #1 "Going to Buffalo to see the Erie Canal that I learned about when I was younger." #2 "Don't go there, it's just another park with a short rewatered slip and some building foundations. Oh, and some interpretive markers, too." #1 "That's too bad, where should I go then?" #2 "Head north to Lockport, that's the real mccoy. They have actual working locks and miles of waterway. You won't believe how developed it is around there and how much else there is to do all because of the canal." Conversation I expect to have in the future... Visitor "What's up with that grassy area?" Me "This is THE western terminus of the Erie Canal. See that foundation? There used to be a building there. See that water? Boats used to go there. See that bridge? That looks like the one that used to be there." few seconds of silence... Visitor "Let's go get chicken wings."
Ever talk to someone who's not from Buffalo and ask them if they've heard of the Erie Canal? Even today kids still learn about it. People in other countries have heard of it. There's nothing to see there today, but once it's developed you'll see people start to make the trip here as part of a bigger trip. Look at the Wing Festival, this year was the biggest, it takes time to grow. It's not like nothing is happening there, work has been ongoing for a couple years. If Bass Pro wanted to be here, they would have built a store out in Amherst three years ago. This is not a desired location, except for the money the state was handing them to do as they please.
I for one am in favor of the "Aud" idea. I was against Bass Pro being subsidiesed to build on what could be a nice public space (sorry, in favor of Riverkeepers on this one). If they can create a nice use of the truly ugly Aud, I like it... It really is an ugly, outdated, municipal building that should be torn down or re-done and if Bass Pro wants to come in and put this empty space to use, more power to them!
When does this joke end? The leadership here is moronic-- delivering 40-plus years of the same old BULLSHIT! Yet--we still keep putting these people into office! They couldn't get anything done if they tried.
Between the politicos and the preservationists...they couldn't agree on building a freaking out-house! Perhaps they should waste more money on 'consulting fees' to determine if using The Aud is feasible;).
If this gets done in 10 years--I'll be surprised. This--and the bridge! This is one shining example of why we can't keep good people here.
I am thinking they will bring the water to the Aud in this scenario. I bet any money they build more canals to make the Aud site work.
Beg to differ with RonR. If BP was really in love with Buffalo, they'd have opened a store years ago without massive bribes, just like unsubsidized, Buffalo-loving, resident entrepreneurs do every day. What I hear on the street is that BP owner Johnnie Morris isn't the least bit interested in Buffalo.
Siloman, what's this about "dropping reputation/value?" Please tell! It certainly complements the article in the New York Times several months ago about the alarming drop in hunting & fishing licenses in Erie County. The BP market here is shrinking.
Thank you to Tim Tielman and everyone else that fought to keep the Erie Canal plan as is. Far from being embarrassed, we should all be proud of the process that got us to where we are. Why are so many of you being so defensive and negative?? I have never given a tour of Buffalo that didn't leave my guests in awe of its history and beauty. True, most of my friends don't care about football nor are they afraid of snow. They love great old ciites with interesting neighborhoods and buildings. These are the people that will travel for miles to see the Canal. Think positive folks.
That picture really hits home the idea that this is a historic area in need of protection. Can't wait for ye olde towne to be built now. Exactly when is that going to happen?
As for Tim Tielman. It would be easier to list the projects that he helped to happen than those he blocked. He was way off base on this one but the city owes him a big debt for the idiot mistakes he has prevented from happening.
Bass Pro could never build on the central wharf in the first place as the parking structure it requires immediately adjacent to the store can not wrap itself around a skyway pier as proposed. DOT wouldn't allow it and even if they could make it work, it would be cost inefficient.
Just to put this out there, this wasn't stopped by preservationists.
How much is $60M worth for a company whose reputation/value is dropping? To me, this proves all they want is the sugar.. Spend those dollars on local businesses. That way, the profits/money stays here. The only "Silver Bullet" is in the Lone Ranger's pistol. Right Kemosabe?
It sounds like this is all being pushed by Higgins and Brown (according to wgrz and wivb). FINALLY! We have some politicians that are willing to stand up to the sexy ideas with fun renderings and do what is right! Higgins is the most visionary leader that we have.
Don't talk to me about any waterfront development until the skyway is knocked down and replaced with a 45 mile an hour waterfront boulevard.
Also.. I've got a roommate from Virginia... who said it best. "Build it already.. its a basspro". Theres nothing special about these stores.. and you'd figure with $60 million in incentives.. it would have been built years ago. Its the politics getting in the way... take the politics out of the process.. PLEASE.
RonR.. you're right.. this is a first step... with many more to come... glad basspro is off the water... but I'd still like to see some sort of harbor front re-creation of what was once there... akin to navy pier of chicago...(p.s. theres no parking ramps there... and its still packed every weekend). Urban Wegmans would be pretty cool somewhere downtown...
Spaulding97... we've already got our history... we just don't use it like those other cities do...
Mayor brown... get a pair will you??? YOu should have spoke up about this a long long time ago....
Bflorox..we'd have a lot more conversations about whats going on in Buffalo if we advertised.... ADVERTISE.. ADVERTISE...ADVERTISE...believe it or not naysayers... theres quite a bit going on here... and most of our own citizens don't even know about it.
ps ... this is exactly the scenario of the young boyfriend / girlfriend where the girl thinks he loves her and the guy is just using her. He doesnt care for her and will see what he can get out of her and then leave her. I think we all know where Buffalo and Bass Pro fit in that metaphor...
Wow, thanks Tim Tielman and cronies for obstructing yet ANOTHER Buffalo development.
ps ... this is exactly the scenario of the young boyfriend / girlfriend where the girl thinks he loves her and the guy is just using her. He doesnt care for her and will see what he can get out of her and then leave her. I think we all know where Buffalo and Bass Pro fit in that metaphor...
LOL....i left for exactly this reason - nothing ever changes in Buffalo. Part of it is to blame on "moronic" (thanks BFLORome) leaders and the other part is to blame on the gentry not saying anything. Have a rally at city hall. Demand Brown be impeached. Do something. Call somebody. Get off your butts and do something. When will you realize that city hall will never do anything and that we have to do it ourselves. Buffalo will only be saved by businessmen, not by politicians. Its the cold reality of it all, but someone had to say it. Good luck...
All we hear about is how the "erie canal harbor," which no one gives a shit about outside of Buffalo, is going to be developed as an 18th century replica. We introduce a nice rendering to get development moving and the preservationists jump in as if this were Sacred ground....FINE. BUT, build the dam thing already. DO SOMETHING in this lifetime!
We are the laughing stock of this entire country.
IT TOOK 7 YEARS TO BUILD A DINKY BOAT SLIP AND MUSUEM.....Did anyone see any tourists visit the "boat slip" this summer. I didn't.
It will it atke another 7 years to develop the polluted land that sits underneath the skyway that no one wants.
This is why people leave Buffalo and never come back. This whole siutation is embarassing.
The financing is there, but nothing happens. The picture looks like 1972, becuase that is the year we live in Buffalo.
What a joke. This whole area is an eyesore.
I have no doubts that Buffalo is finally on the upswing. Though I truly feel that subsidizing a Bass fishing Mega-lo-mart as a tone setting anchor to the future vitality of our downtown is a very bad idea. Have you ever seen the BassPro in Auburn? It's like a Dick's Sporting Goods w/o the cool climbing wall or the customers. If they ever build it, I doubt it would be successful. If it is, great for them. If it isn't, no financial loss on their behalf. They can just blame the city. Then we'll be stuck with an Epcot style, oversized fishing lodge smack in the middle of downtown. You think the old Aud is a hard space to sell. Try moving a 40,000 sf Ozark fashioned stucco theme park.
A BassPro belongs in Clarence, not Buffalo. Do "they" truly think that people are going to come into downtown to get some ammo and wooden duck decoys, then stay around to window shop at the Main Place Mall? At best, you'll have a handful of locked door, SUV's coming in on the weekends. They'll park at Basspro. Maybe eat there. Then about face. Or, if we are lucky, maybe they'll swing by the Casino to play a few slots, and look at the poor people.
Have you seen this new store experience video on the BassPro website?
http://content.basspro.com/outdoorworldtv/asx/924921broadband300k.asx
I didn't see a single non-caucasian person in the whole presentation. BassPro is such a poor fit for downtown Buffalo, Economically, as well as culturally., I find it absolutely ridiculous that it's still a discussion. I find it truly absurd that it's even a possible reality.
tjc246 I am invested, very much invested... I own several pieces of property, commercial centers, homes, land and apartments...and in turn I pay the highest taxes in America. Which is the reason for the frustration. PS Las Vegas is the best economy in the US in spite of any housing slowdown. Commercial Real Estate in those states are booming. For the record.
So does this mean 100%of the Aud is coming down? I would hope they try and keep the North end where the old Aud Club was located.
Regardless of that you have to give BP some credit. For them to stick around this long and deal with all of this, they must be really in love with Buffalo. For a company that is growing like they are I am shocked they have not walked away.
Why must it be IKEA or Bass Pro? Why couldnt these things be developed together to create some critical mass? Why is IKEA a better option than BassPro? Both have rather large markets and I can see the pluses for each. I would love to see both IKEA and Bass Pro downtown in a district shared with the HSBC Arena and Canal and Erie Basin Marina, hopefully a weather and bicycle museum, etc.
The interesting part of this story is that Bass Pro did not make a decision; Mayor Brown made a decision that the Central Wharf and the Erie Canal Harbor Project Area, prized historic sites on which a funded and approved heritage-based project is already underway, is not for sale. Bravo to the Mayor for embracing progress and demanding that the 2004 Master Plan get back under construction! And bravo to the Campaign for Greater Buffalo for assembling all the civic interests that made this compromise possible. Finally, we can have the best of both worlds - build-out of the 2004 Master Plan and a destination retail and parking on acceptable adjacent locations.
Bravo Mayor Brown!!
guess Im the only person to be disappointed in this announcement.
Why? Well take a look at a canal map laid over the existing area at the website below: http://www.gapfel.com/eriecanal/
You see I was really looking forward to the last plan that would have extended the commercial slip all the way to the former location of the Erie Canal and then follow the Erie Canal to Washington Street. That was the last proposal. NOW AS EVERYONE KNOWS THE LOCATION OF THE MEMORIAL AUDITORIUM IS DIRECTLY ON TOP OF THE ERIE CANAL. THEREFORE IF BASS PRO BUILDS ON THE SITE OF THE AUD THEN THE COMMERCIAL SLIP CANNOT BE EXTENDED FURTHER INTO THE CITY.
I think expanding the Commercial Slip further into the city would have been a very smart move...even smarter than Bass Pro....as it would have extended the canal district into the heart of the city making our canal district unique to the entire US.
im glad that Bass Pro is moving forward...just as I was glad that they were going to move to the south end of the commercial slip instead of the north end. Moving to the south end as I said before would have allowed the Erie Canal Western Terminus Wharf District to integrate itself with the DL&W....though that could still occur...if the DL&W Concourse was rebuilt...it could still integrate somewhat seemlessly with Bass Pro.
the real disappointment is that this announcement ends any further hopes of extending the commercial slip further into the city.....though....with alittle hope and prayer...perhaps....Bass Pro might recognize the value of having the commercial slip extended to the aud site....and locating their building right on the canal as the Spaulding Exchange was.
May I suggest ...to take a look at this website and its pictures....to see what I mean.....and what it could mean for Buffalo and Bass Pro.
The Old Aud would have made a great Apple Computer Store ??? Maybe they could put a Dell Computer Outlet in the basement.
Here's a refreshing idea. Why not tell Bass Pro to "take a hike" and invite Ikea in and build modern apartments around.
For those who don't know, Ikea is a company originated in Sweden and is all over Europe and now in the USA. They have high quality furnishings and everything else for a house and apartment at a very reasonable price. And people in Buffalo and surrounding areas love a bargain. They are an enormous outfit with enormous stores. Everywhere they build they attract other businesses as in and apartments/condos restaurant, theaters etc.
A perfect example of this growth spurt that Ikea causes in it's surrounding area is the one that I know and have visited recently in downtown Atlanta, GA. Atlantic Station became a reality in 2001 just 3 years after Atlantic Steel ceased operations. It is within walking distance to Ikea and was the result of Ikea being built along with empty buildings being turned into lofts. Atlantic station is a community of shops, restaurants theaters, gyms ...I'm sure you get the picture.
Here are the websites for Ikea www.ikea.com and Atlantic Station www.atlanticstation.com . Check them out.
I promise you that Ikea will build near Buffalo sometime in the future, why not have them sooner to bring economy into downtown Buffalo!
Come on people and give Bass Pro the boot which only appeals to a percentage and let's bring something in that will appeal to all of the people.
Screw Bass Pro! Just afew months ago Buffalo told them to shit or get off the pot. And now we are back to offering them the Aud site again. We look like such losers. Lets face it, no other retailers are interested in Buffalo, Bass Pro isn't either. They would have been here already. What we really need are afew big department stores downtown, something everybody could use, and that's not happening either.
Personally, I never understood the alure of Bass Pro and must agree with Don Esmond's position on it, to take the Canal spot would be sad. On the other hand, we have an abandoned Auditorium that would not work for much else so why not give them a try. I have no idea if it will work as such a narrow verticle but I do not see anyone else wanting to give it a try... Hell, Best Buy is not willing to come in,
All I am saying is that I like the idea of Bass Pro in the Aud as opposed to taking up space where we could have a park for everyone to enjoy. The Aud is ugly and empty.
PS Las Vegas is the best economy in the US in spite of any housing slowdown. Commercial Real Estate in those states are booming. For the record.
Yeah and it's all hideous, soulless crap built mucho el cheapo which will not age well.
As I predicted several months ago on a BR post, BP would never happen at the Central Wharf site because of too many environmental and regulatory hurdles and lack of agency support, not to mention the inevitable lawsuits. Why didn't our so-called leaders at ECHDC have the forethought to see this coming? Primarily arrogance and incompetence as I see it. We could've saved the construction season and completed the bulk of the 2004 plan this year but instead, we have more unnecessary delays.
For those of you objecting to a proposed park in this area, the "park" represents a very small portion of the 12.5 acre site and will include a festival plaza and stage for concerts including Thursday at the Square, which will likely be relocated there because of the current space contraints. There are plenty of parcels that will be open for development within the 12.5 acre site with perhaps hundreds of acres of "shovel ready" land nearby. Finish the plan and watch the area blossom!
Read the Plan: http://www.nylovesbiz.com/pdf/erie/Final_Master_Plan_Report.pdf
Let me first state that I do live in Buffalo - yes in the City. I have seen a lot of positive things happening in the City, but I am having a hard time believing that Bass Pro will actually build. I feel teased.
for me bass pro is not as important as it wants to be. First they show us bass pro city, it may have been the best plan for them to dream up, But i thought its timelessness was frail and obstructive towards the real vision. A lot like the skyway, we have an unnatural 16 bit shape, that provides little continuity with the urban fabric. So they were wise to invest near the water where their reflection would be most humane, however the plan was institutional in size and that does not fly with the commercial interests of historians.
bass pro's big mistake was being exclusionists, they took the front window from everyone else and crammed every manikin with a fishing pole. worrying about where to park should come after Tielman's extension of the canal, which i assume is happening?
300miles...go back and read the article again. They are looking at the "aud site" as in level it and start from scratch. They are not going back to the retrofitting option.
Bass Pro, Peace Bridge, EV Hotel, Park Lane New Condos, Buffalo City Tower, Waterfront Village, E-Zone, Uniland Waterfront Project... all on the death/never be born list. Think NFTA will ever make it public how polluted all the land is and thaqt they cant sell it to anyone because of the liabilities that go along with the land?
Hey, another Buffalo hopefull. Wow adds to the list since before the peace bidge concept. Can this one fly or are we just chasing our tails down another pipe dream? With all due respect, Mayor Brown MUST shit or gt off the pot with this. There are too many unsed buildings in and around this city as it is. Don't really care were site is located, as long as it is in an existing shell
I actually liked the site Bass Pro was set to occupy but since it is not to be yet again and Bass Pro keeps getting kicked around from site to site I think Donovan site would be good as stated above.
Screw it all, pull the plug on this nightmare and move on. We don't need this collasal waste of time and money. Give it to the park system. Or hire some Urban Planners.
"What a joke. This whole area is an eyesore."
And Bass Pro Mall will make it better? These are your words...
"So does this mean 100% of the Aud is coming down?"
No. It doesn't. The article mentioned they are still investigating re-use of the Aud... OR demolition.
There's nothing, and I mean nothing, more Buffalo than the whole Bass Pro thing :-)
Here is where Bass Pro's love goes... A land locked Foxboro Mass... They are getting the Kraft Shaft if you ask me... Good riddence...
http://www.patriot-place.com/inside.asp
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