Interesting take on a widely misunderstood topic. Recent grads often think they're making out big by getting "higher" salaries in cities, such as NYC and Chicago, and living outside of Buffalo. What they forget to calculate into their plans is significant -- cost of living makes all the difference. It's too bad they don't teach more about this stuff in school because it's awfully important. Nice post!
Lifestyle. Really, a lot of people leave Buffalo not because they can't find work, but because they want to be in a place where there's a large, thriving and growing group of their peers, or a place that offers a lifestyle that they can't find in Buffalo. A traffic jam on the Perimeter, the threat of earthquakes or hurricanes, or a $1,500/month studio apartment is seen as a small price to pay to live the lifestyle they want. As an expat, I've met other expats who have echoed the same thoughts; they feel more comfortable in their new places of residence than they ever did in Buffalo.
Unfortunately, Census data show that Elmwood Village, good pizza, Wegmans, short commutes and $120,000 houses aren't enough to keep young professionals here. Talking up cheap housing and repeating tired cliches like "Buffalo's a 20 minute city" and "you can shovel a blizzard, but you can't shovel a hurricane" may make the locals feel good, but it hasn't been very effective at getting the expats back home, much less keeping young Buffalonians close to home turf.
Agreed Dan. But think of the middle-age-bracket of professionals who want to experience city living without living in a big city? I'm happy to get those people back here. The more we get, the better the city is. The better the city is, the greater the chances are that we will start to retain our youth. Ya gotta start somewhere. Let's start by showing professionals that they are welcome to our city and they can grow a nest egg while raising a family. Those returning professionals will be the ones who hire our kids when they get out of college someday.
In my field (law), the difference is much larger. In NYC, most large firms are now paying $160,000 to start, plus a solid annual bonus ($30,000 or so generally, a couple of firms pay up to full salary). Same starting salaries on the other coast. Texas, Atlanta, and Chicago have some firms that pay that, while the stragglers are at $145,000. Hell, you can make $135,000 down the road in either Cleveland or Pittsburgh, and it doesn't cost a cent more to live in either of those places.
Anyway, how are the big firms in Buffalo going to compete when they start at $65,000-$85,000? (Not to mention that there are only about 20 jobs like that openine every year.)
I love Buffalo, but I'm not going to take a 60-70% paycut to move back...
A bird told me that the cost of living was 220% higher in NYC then in the rest of average America, including Buffalo we're talking a national average here. I find it extremly tough that the cost of living here is only -60.3 % less today than what it is in NYC. Your in the poor house if you live BYYOURSELF in NYC on $35k
These statistics and GIOA provide for an interesting comparison as a 20 year old who left for "higher wages" in Chicago. One begins to realize that the extra couple of dollars an hour I make here goes to the fact that I live here; not because I live good and that theme seems to rear its head in numeros markets I've researched.
Dan, I think we might be in the same to near age bracket. I've heard it to, I have friends who have left.. I've debated ( I still have time).. same story different day. But I've also got friends from all over the country who come to WNY for school and are wonderfully suprised and yes, believe it or not some of them have stayed.
Granted, we don't have the economy of the Carolinas, Florida, or Texas... even though I find it laughable when people say they can't find work, I've never had a problem at all. I've noticed that if your into law, financials, insurance, machinery, sales, GOVERNMENT HAHAH, accounting. you've got it good here and you've got the low cost of living that Chicago or NYC would kill to have over theirs. But this is ignored because of the "Buffaloanian inferiority complex" thats ingraved in all us when we're here.
I find that teachers complain the most about the horrible economy in WNY, are you a teacher dan?? Because we have a lot of teachers here and thats what I tell my teacher friends when they talk about how much this place sucks. It's a drowning pool if your a teacher in Buffalo/WNY, its hard to get a golden NYS job.
But, I'v seen more than one teacher serving food with a masters degree b/c they can't find work... I don't blame them for leaving.
And that character, Wegmans, cheap housing (which is gold), great pizza, won't keep people here by itself, nor willl pure charachter alone keep ppl anywhere, but it is an excellant start.
I don't think Buffalo takes any effort what so ever to make it self competitive with other larger cities for the younger creative class.. even though there is work here and the area oozes large amounts of charachter. Its all about the advertising.
Ya know.. I've often wondered my Buffalo has gone unused for soo long even after I've noticed the bare bones of a "could be" excellant city... then I see who's been in control and the fact that the crap that the younger generation has to be through to get a job and make a decent life in WNY.. isn't worth it. Damn, I wish someone young, good looking, a nd smart would change things...
Then again, if your typing from the South Dan its the same story anywhere in the Northeast. Buffalo, Cleveland, Detroit, Philadelphia, NYC ( added 200k residents last year just b/c its the immigrant capital of the U.S) Pittsburgh, even Chicago (-62,700 2006-2007) are having problems retaining their populations and their younger creative class just b/c it snows here and the fact that "Anywhere is better than the place you grew up."
I wonder if the BCVB would put this on their site? The graph says it all.
I think that lots of people realize that Buffalo is a fantastic place to live if you have a good job, How many other places in the US can you make 30-40k and do "alright" and make 60K and live like a king ( as a single) Get married and with even two moderate 40K incomes you are riding pretty high around here.
A cheap house is only enjoyable when the "neighbors" aren't crackheads. crack dealers, trash with blasting "music" or scumbags. Come join me on my front steps for a night of observation, if you doubt this.
People talk too much in generalizations when you do these "studies". I just moved down here to NYC and I pay 400 more a month than I did in Buffalo. Is it worth it? The average starting pay for my industry is 50% higher here, not to mention it, the sky is the limit when it comes to max salary. Plus, if I don't like my job, there are 1000000 others ready to hire, always. I love Buffalo, but it cannot compete. It is a good place to retire sure, after you make your money. But if you are looking for a lifestyle of more than going to the Regal on Friday nights and MT on Saturdays, you gotta try another area. There is also the networking concept that you cannot get in Buffalo, which definitely helps your career. Smart graduates see this, which is why the majority of them leave. Once selfish politicians, high taxes, and unions become the new Bethlehem Steel, there may be a chance to save the city. In the meantime, its best to look elsewhere if you're chasing a dream.
It is important to expand the search for new Bflo residents to those already in the metro area, but "exempt" from living in the city while drawing generous paychecks from city taxpayers.
A new city charter was implemented under Mayor Masiello in nthe mid 1990's requiring city residency for all city workers. But the law has never been effectivley implemented because top level political cronies refused to live in the city. The most dramatic residency violator is "Executive Assistant" to the City Comptroller Tony Farina, who has lived in Niagara County for 6 years, while illegally collecting about $1/2 million in salary & benefits.
Currently City Comptroller SanFilippo, always referred to in the Bflo News at "fiscal watchdog", is running for re-election. The Charter requires him to "certify residency" of his staff. Instead he has illegally covered-up Farina's non-residency, as did Comptoller Nanula before him, who even co-signed for Farina's 244 Brentwood North Tonawanda mortgage.
Another Masiello appointee, BMHA Assistant Executive Thomas A Williams, moved to Clarence in 1995 as he was hired by Masiello to his $80K-plus HUD-funded job, having merely a GED. Williams worked to implement an incredible "opt-out" for BMHA workers, enabling them to pay about $1000 annually for the "privilege' of living in suburbs, while paid to house the inner-city poor.
But nobody knows how many BMHA "opt-outs" there are, or if they have paid for the 'privilege'. The Comptroller audited BMHA, but covered-up that problem, knowing that Farina's non-residency made it "unmentionable".
And, of course, the incredible "exemption" for Bflo cops, firefighters, & sanitation workers living in the city is never mentioned by the Comptroller either. The NYS exemption is based on utterly obsolete law from WW II times when NYC & Bflo emplyees found it difficult to afford city living.
Now cops & firefighters are among the city's best paid workers. But it has been INCONVENIENT to change a law that could bring $10's of millions of city payroll into a struggling city economy.
Will the issue even be mentioned in SanFilippo's campaign . . . as he runs unopposed for a new term, 'in-house campaign manager Farina" at his side?
Dick Kern
But nobody mentions such illegality
BUFFALO - ALL THE TAXES THAT NEW YORK HAS TO OFFER AT A FRACTION OF THE SALARY!
The cost of living may be lower than other cities, on the surface, but the cost of running our enormous State and Local governments, the wealth of unregulated and unchecked "administrations" and the generous social service programs puts an unfair burden on the residents of upstate and western New York.
The cost for government goes so far beyond elected officials, the State of New York has more than 50 times the number of unregulated and unchecked political "authorities" (thruway, water, transit, housing, etc) than other states of comparable size and citizenry. These authorities are run by political hacks who couldn't make it in the public eye, they are rewarded for their incompetence by serving as the head of any one of the many authorities (look up John L Buono, head of the Thruway Authority as an example). We pay for this in higher taxes and fees for services, the tolls are a good example. The only thing that my "tolls at work" are doing is preventing the installation of express EZpass lanes (like they have in other states) and maintaining the bloated ($55,000 p/y) salaries of the civil servants who take change from non-EZpass holders. This is one example, another? Ok, the Water Authority is charging New Yorkers some of the highest water delivery rates in the country, more than people who live in the deserts or in drought ridden areas; yet we sit on one of the largest fresh water reserves in the world. Where is the money going? The water authority has received a substantial (4%+) pay raise and very generous bonuses EVERY year for the past 20 years. The guy leaning on his shovel watching the backhoe dig up your street is earning $65,000 p/y, this is before the overtime that we are paying him for his services (because it wasn't a scheduled repair).
There are so many examples of this waste and incompetence. It is no wonder that people are leaving NY in droves!
I still thin in Bflo, you still end up ahead dispite the higher tax burden. not that im making excuses for authorities or incompetence.
Even if the percentage of property tax is higher, the assesed value of my home is so much lower than most of the country, I still think we pay less. If I pay 1% on a 500K or 5% on a 100k, my property tax is the same. So here i stay.
Just imagine if we could reel in those authorities!
chiknli, and, by the way, i do physical labor frequently as part of my job. there is a reason to lean on a shovel. it would be impossible to work nonstop doing tough jobs. not to mention the fact is, while the backhoe is going, its likely that guy cant do anything. should he be sent home until the backhoe is all done and then called back to work in the trench?
maybe you should try it sometime.
Al-alo, no question that there is a time and place for shovel leaning, my point is that this activity is hardly worth $65,000+ per year. I spent more than enough time working for two municipal highway departments when I was younger, this was my insight into the rampant abuse perpetuated by the state authorities and local governments.
So sorry if the "leaning on the shovel" comment hit too close to home for you.
I'm a long time Buffalo resident, but a bit new to this website. A little surprising that such a simple post has caused alot of the ex's to tell us why they've left. I guess I'd like to say one thing. It's easy to leave. Takes no special skill, just a call to a moving company, and thougths that it will be better elsewhere. Your reasoning about jobs, etc. is a tad on the simplistic side. You may have good reason for leaving, and I'm pleased to hear that you're content in your decision (so much so that you're spending time on a Buffalo website), but I'd wonder how fully a person's character has developed if they choose a place to live based solely on what the perceived networking opportunites will be.
From a professional standpoint the ever 'flattening' world seems to make where you call home less important. MT (I have a soft spot for Ziggy's) may not be enough to make Buffalo your home, but my knowing my family's here, and will be, is enough for me to make it mine, whatever the networking downside.
No worries ckknlil.
and believe me, ive worked in govt, and ive seen waste. no doubt, and your point is taken. But i think its better to go after the big fish. Just like you say, its the authorities - those bonding, status quo, land of patronage authorities.
I mean you cut that guy at a construction site, allright, that is 65 or 100k off the budget. Meanwhile, some obsure authority just issued 150 million in bonds the state is potentially liable for.
I'm moving to Buffalo from outside of Seattle at the end of August. I think that if Buffalo can just invest a bit more in the arts and creative industries, it'll all be ok. After we bought our house here in a "rough"-ish neighborhood, we convinced at least 6 other couples of friends to move within a 3 block radius of our house. I'm already working hard on relocating my friends to Buffalo.
blehpunk,
welcome! hope your new city is everything you hopefor and more!
youre post inspired a new nickname for buffalo (or at least a name to strive for): "the seatle of the great lakes"
For all those that think finding a job in NYC is so easy apparently Forbes didnt inerview you because Buffalo preformed better than NYC in the Best Cities for Jobs in 2006. Buffalo is the 73 best city in America for jobs up 5 spots from 2005, New York was 75. Buffalo also beat Pittsburgh (76), Memphis (80), St. Louis (81), Chicago (82), Boston (83), San Francisco (86), LA (88), Fresno (90), San Jose (91), Cleveland (92), Milwaukee (94), Dayton and Toledo (95, 96), New Orleans (99), Detroit (100).
http://www.forbes.com/home/2007/02/15/best-cities-jobs-leadership-careers_cx_hc_0216cityjobs_table.html
I love Buffalo and have to defend why to a lot of my friends and my dad on a daily basis. I'm sick of it, but i will never stop. I want to start a property development company focused on the city some day and when i retire, own a small store on elmwood and no one can stop me from doing that regardless of what they think about the city. I think people just need somthing to complain about to function. P.S. the Taste of Buffalo was GREAT today!
For all those that think finding a job in NYC is so easy apparently Forbes didnt inerview you because Buffalo preformed better than NYC in the Best Cities for Jobs in 2006. Buffalo is the 73 best city in America for jobs...
Andrew, curious if you agree with Forbes that there's 72 better places in the U.S. for jobs, or do you use that ranking only to make the selective comaprisons you want to make vs. 74, 75, 76, etc. ?
It might be rude of me to guess this, and I'll gladly stand corrected if you say I'm mistaken, but my guess is that even though you used it above as "evidence" to claim Buffalo is superior to Forbes #74 and down, if anyone dared use that same list to claim anything about 72 other places (seventy-freaken-two!) each being better than Buffalo for jobs, then you would suddenly find reasons to dispute the Forbes methodologies. Cake - check. Eat it too - check.
Looking at objective statistics, the percentage job growth in NYC for 2006 was more than double that of Buffalo/Niagara metro: 1.7% for NYC (which happened to equal the national average) vs. 0.8% for Buffalo/Niagara.
So using that most recent year as an example, yeah I think the fact that NYC grew jobs at over double the percent we grew them would mean that the people you put down have a much better point than you do. Dor the average job seeker - yes they'd have an easier time in NYC finding a job compared to in Buffalo. Not every case, but on average so the means for most people.
Double the jobs growth rate is a huge difference.
Does that mean it's "so easy" to find a job in NYC? Well, everything's relative of course. Does that mean life in NYC is better than Buffalo? Of course not. But it does mean your critique of those saying that in general it's easier to find a job in NYC is bizarre.
Side note - even more successful than NYC and the nation, was the state of Texas with 2.7% job growth in 2006, approx double that of NY State which had 1.4% growth.
Reference for all of above: http://www.ppinys.org/nyecon/stats_jan07.pdf
When you talk about how much you love Buffalo and want to open a business here, etc., I would not argue with any of that - it's a personal preference you have and many others have - wonderful. No statistics or magazine rankings needed.
But when you put down others such as those discussing NYC job market as if they don't know what they're talking about, then you're going way too far. Those people do have a good point. Now to you, that point may be outweighed by many other factors - that's fine. But it doesn't mean they don't have a good point.
This is a really interesting discussion. I'm in my 30's, a Buffalo native and a Buffalo Public Schools graduate. I lived in several different cities in the U.S. (Berkeley and Boston among them) and in Europe & Asia before returning here in 2004. Given those experiences, I believe I have something to contribute to this conversation.
First, I think it's a cop-out to say that there's nothing to do in Buffalo. After all, how many restaurants can you go to on a Friday night? One. How many concerts? One. How many art exhibits? Unless you're rushing, one. So to say that there's nothing to do is an exaggeration. To say that your options are more limited is fair. But it was my experience that I couldn't afford all the great concerts and restaurants and museum exhibitions in the Bay Area because I wasn't making $200K a year. And in the end, you often wind up returning to the restaurants, bars, etc. that you love. That's how communities are formed, after all.
Second, friends of mine in San Francisco went to a financial analyst recently to discuss buying a home. Although they make a combined income of well over $100K, the analyst told them that they are in a lower-middle class income bracket in SF and essentially dashed their hopes of owning a home anytime soon. NYC is an even more dramatic case. I understand that you can make 2-3 times as much money as a lawyer in NYC or SF than Buffalo, but it may not be enough to allow you to buy a home. Maybe that doesn't matter so much in your mid-20s (it didn't to me), but it may become more important in your late 20s or early 30s.
Third, we live TWO hours away from Toronto. If you're dying for bulgogi or all-you-can-eat sushi or Tibetan food, it's an amazingly easy trip. For those looking to supplement Buffalo living with a dose of big city life every so often, the QEW is your friend. And if you arrive in the GTA during rush hour? Well, you'll have a little more patience the next time you hit every single red light on Delaware from the S curves to West Tupper on your "commute."
I know it's a complicated discussion with myriad dimensions. But I have hope about our future prospects as a city. Some of us really ARE moving back and committing ourselves to seeing Buffalo rise. The following Margaret Mead quote is overused these days, but that's probably because it resonates:
"Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful, committed citizens can change the world; indeed, it's the only thing that ever does."
I moved here from my home town of Seattle in the early 90s. There is no way that I could have had half of the life in Seattle that I have had here.
As a young singleton in a less than prestigious job, I was able to live in a lovely apartment by myself, own a car, experience art, theatre and music and go on many road trips with friends.
As a middle-aged married person with children, my family and I enjoy a lifestyle beyond that of any other families I know in similar jobs living in bigger cities. Not only are we able to afford a necessities like a home and a car, but we also have more access to free and/or inexpensive concerts, galleries and other interactive events than I think other cities offer.
In Seattle, we would be living many miles outside of the city in some suburb with no sidewalks and an un-planned, scraggly assortment of trees. It is unlikely that we would be able to walk to the grocery store or a park full of rolling hills, paths, and free concerts and plays, one of the top art galleries in the world, and myriad little shops and restaurants. Instead of living in an Arts and Crafts-style house blocks away from a FLW and the former grounds of the Pan-Am, we'd be living in a wood paneled split-level with no crown molding to speak of and brown shag rugs.
Seattle is an amazing place, and I am happy that I grew up in an environment filled with peace, love, happiness, people of many colors and backgrounds, mountains, ocean and trees. But, I can't afford to live the lifestyle that I have here in Buffalo in Seattle. I also don't miss the traffic, the arrogance and the tension.
Buffalo is like a citified Mayberry. If that isn't appealing to you, I get that. I can see that to some, the lack of real avant-garde art lessens our hip-factor. I can also see that we have a small town mentality in some ways and that, as I recall, that is very frustrating to someone used to a hipper, faster city. But those are things that I like about Buffalo, and we're always only 90 minutes from TO.
As far as jobs go, Buffalo is in the middle of sorting out what shape it wants to take. It is the ideal time to come in and make your own job. Start a company or a business, or offer a service no one else is offering. You have to think outside the box, and I think that's an opportunity, not a drawback. Most of the people that I know in creative jobs built them themselves. Being a mid-sized fish in Buffalo's small pond isn't a difficult task. That makes it easy to network, meet people, make things happen. I think that it's a lot harder to do that in a big city full of big money and big names.
Well said.. the better question is what does $150,000+ buy you in Buffalo. This is a magnificent place to live, there are so many options, so many opportunities. My money goes a lot farther in Buffalo than it did anywhere else (boston, dc, chicago, swiladelphia, charlotte). Leave for the experience, come back for the long-haul.
this article states that employment and cost of living are so much better here than NYC, but i think that is a unfair comparison. NYC and Buffalo are grossly different cities, and life experiences. i'd rather see the difference betweeen buffalo and pittsburgh, or charlotte, or phoenix. something more reasonable. i was lucky enough to find a great full time job here, however i just feel that buffalo is still too much of a "blue collar" town to offer recent grads any viable career opportunities.
in the end , i think its all relative. some jobs just require you to take bigger risks and to move to a big city, make little money and struggle with the hopes of making it big. other jobs allow you to be successful in a smaller city and live comfortably. i'd like to think that buffalo is in the transition period at the moment. we will wont be a big city anytime soon, but we're on our way up. i think buffalo has some great opportunities and is a wonderful place to live, just as long as you can find the work you want (and you're ok with the cold). they alway say, things have to get worse before they get better.
I'd rather sit down for hours and state what I love about my city than worrying about comparing it to others by putting them down. It's like dissing somebodies mother. What's the point? My city feels like family to me. I feel a part of it and want to see it suceed no matter how ill it gets. I would not ditch my mom in times of need, nor would I ditch my city and neighbors.
Any missing element to this city is just an opporunity for someone to put in the work to fill it, and if it is a true void: make a lot of money off of taking the chance on it.
Duke-
The cost of living link in the body of the article will allow you to compute the same stats with many, many US cities.
thanks christa, i've used that tool before and found it to be very helpful. i just get a little concerned when we try to compare ourselves to larger cities like new york, boston, chicago, etc... but if we didn't, then this would be a boring article ;)
It's good to see I'm not the only one who thinks this way.
Living in Chicago and frequenting NYC and having friends who live in both, I've often wondered what kind of future is available in large metro's like that. The term "Rich mans Playground" comes to mind, ya I could try and make it big and work 4 jobs, sleep 5 hours a day and have a great apartment and live the NYC or Chicago life ( I'm out of here in 31 days). ( Rdominguez) It'd be great, but I'd be working for my apartment, long story short I'm not a high profile lawyer like Tony Armani.
But essentially if I'm by myself or with a girlfriend/roommate whatever who's normal like me.. ( I mean normal as in not working on WAllstreet or a lawyer).. you're not going to be able to see all the shows or do the killer shopping or see lots of exhibits b/c you can't afford it with a standard double income.
Double income here is lower income there, what regular joe can afford an $800 k two bedroom ranch on a teachers salary, cooks salary, or office salary.. it just can't be done. I'm still young but I would like to own someday and by the looks of things here in Chicago, ( One bedroom $300k) Buffalo housing is really attractive.
Funny you mention the blue collar attitude there Duke, I just asked myself that question yesterday. Whats Buffalo or even Erie County doing to specifically lure or create white collar work here in the Western New York Area?
The whole nation is going service oriented.. and every time I pull the paper up on the internet, it's about tax breaks for Ford, or the Buffalo Commerce Park and Certainteed or Delphi tax breaks etc. For the most part thats good it puts people to work bring business back to the city fine, but I don't know any computer science graduates or MBA students who are vying for a job at the STamping Plant??
Not only do I not see any effort on a large scale to keep youth here, but I see no large scale effort to keep/get white collar work here.. its the future of our country and I don't see Buffalo taking a stab at it.
Atwater Louse... I hear Texas is booming and a great place to live.. I have an aunt who just moved there from Florida ( thank god).. have you ever been??
Christa and Duke really hit the nail on the head here.. I also think Buffalo is on the right track and in somewhat of a "definatative stage" regarding its future as a white collar town with a industrial past. I just think the small movement we have now lacks direction and needs an excellent leader to kick this this in the ass.
I'd like to draw attention to Citibank and HSBC who have just located back office operations in the Buffalo Area. ( I know its not the same, just for an example). Along with the new york city downsizing voted on by Citibank stock holders, profits were down ---expenses were up, they're moving jobs from the biggest metro in the country b/c its too expensive. Not to this area unfortunately but an interesting foray to pursue when a flight to NYC is $120 roundtrip.
This is the syndrome this is beginning to affect every major metro in the U.S... costs are too high and there are some operations that can't be move to India. Buffalo will never be a major major city but I do think it has a unique opportunity to piggy back on Chicago, Cleveland, Toronto, and NYC.. b/c its more expensive to do business there then here. This is the beginning of a large movement here people...
Costs are rising here in Chicago as well, an assessment cap is about to expire. Assessments on all types of property have been capped at 3-7% in the Chicagoland area just simply due to rising property values. Its about to expire and won't be renewed.. taxes are pegged to rise 18-20% on residental, commerical and industrial properties in the Chicago metro area. Downtown being the hardest hit of course.
Don't bitch about the taxes or how downtown sucks ass... we've got to get things together here if Buffalo is every going to have a future for itself or even for its youth.
There will be a time in the near future where Businesses all around the country will be choosing with their feet just as numerous Buffaloanians have in the past.. its really just up to the citizentry to make something happen.
First year associates at a big law firm in Buffalo make literally half the starting salary as in NYC. I want to come back, but I can't justify turning down a job that pays more net than i would get gross in buffalo...i'll be back when I want to start a business of my own, though
Housing is the biggest advantage Buffalo has over places like NYC, Chicago and San Fran. I live in San Francisco now and this comment space isn't big enough to describe what it is like to walk into a tiny 2 bedroom 1 bath house with original shag carpeting that is selling for $1.1 million dollars. You want to settle in San Fran? Come take a walk in my shoes.
Here is to hoping that Buffalo's low cost of living ends up making it the most expensive city in America!
Low real estate won't keep young people in Buffalo
Speaking from personal experience, I just graduated from Oswego State and moved to Chicago. Real estate prices are much more attractive in the Queen City, but you have to understand that in big cities, there will always be a few nice neighborhoods with less expensive places to live.
I pay $500 a month to live in a nice apartment with big rooms in a nice little oasis in the south side. It's a little far from downtown, but, another thing to consider; I only pay $75 a month for unlimited public transportation. To be able to cover that distance in Buffalo, i would have to make car payments, insurance, gas, repairs (etc).
I digress. My point is that I (and there are many like me) just want a more urban and happening environment that Buffalo has to offer. When there are suburbs like OP, Wheatfield, and Clarence that completely destroy an urban center, real estate prices (which can be 'not so bad' in larger cities) are the last thing on our minds.
That being said. Buffalo is the greatest city in the world. I will move back in a few years (promise). I just wish I didn't have to leave in the first place to get the big city experience that I've always wanted.
GO BILLS!
stopthesprawl-
I think that you make a good point in the sense that arguably Buffalo would be more open-minded and progressive if more people spent some time in other cities. Afterwards returning to Buffalo with their new-found ideas and concepts.
On this site, we've seen many conversations include the idea that those that leave and come back appreciate more of what Buffalo has to offer than those that watch television and envision better lives elsewhere.
Ike, not only just NYC/Chicago/DC/LA/SF/SD/Texas/ATL with salaries like that (as I'm sure you know), but Pittsburgh, Cleveland, and Charlotte pay materially more than Buffalo firms, and it's no more expensive to live there. Your first year out in Cleveland or Pittsburgh can resemble your first year in Buffalo, but you'll have an extra $50-70k gross to play around with (or save so you can move to Spaulding Lake or on Middlesex or to a horse farm in East Aurora when you move back home), and the annual raises (~$10-15k in Cleve and Pitt; 2-4x that in the bigger cities--$1k-5k in Buffalo) really add up... Buffalo is home and I love it, and I'll continue to fly home for Bills and Sabres games and hate to leave, but you're right--it's simply too much money for us to pass up.
I agree with the above posters who say that we should be comparing to Cleveland and Pittsburgh, not to New York or Chicago.
Hey everybody. Noticed this discussion today and decided to register and chime in. First, I want to say that I can sympathize with both points of view here. I left Buffalo after college and took a job outside in Maryland, just outside of the DC beltway, in September 2001. I was there three years -- yeah, not a very long time, but long enough to tell the difference -- and then found my way back here after grad school in Europe. As soon as I came back, I bought a house, and I've been here since early 2005.
I think there's a perspective here that we all need to think about. And that's the psychological aspect of being in Buffalo if you're from here. I won't get into economics in any detail, because I'm hardly qualified or knowledgeable enough in that regard to contribute in any really significant way.
My point about the psychological aspect is that if you're from here, there often is a sense of "defeat", or, at the very least, "limitation" that exists. It may be overt, or it may be quite subconscious. There is the feeling that there is more to be experienced out there, and that Buffalo's implicit culture is somehow limiting what you can experience. I'm not saying that's unique to Buffalo...the same phenomenon certainly exists in any situation where one is breaking into early adulthood and feeling the limitations of his or her familar environment.
What I can say, with the objectivity of having lived, worked, and struggled (I'm a teacher) in both regions, is this. Buffalo may well be a "progressive" city. In fact, in many ways, it's probably more progressive than many other more "hip" and "forward thinking" cities, when one considers where it is relative to where it was not that long ago. However -- and I'd be willing to defend this -- it certainly doesn't FEEL like a progressive city if you're from here. It's difficult to understand that if you haven't lived elsewhere. That's what I mean by the psychological aspect.
Some of the things that make Buffalo so endearing, in a "homecoming weekend" kind of way, are also the things that make it so unbelieveably frustrating for its native sons and daughters. It's sort of like "Cheers", here. Everybody knows your name. Everybody talks about the same issues (many of them very tired, ie Peace Bridge, Casino, et friggin cetera) ad nauseum. Everybody "shares the pain" when one of our own is injured, wronged, or maligned. All admirable things. But this sort of solidarity, so ubiquitious in our city, is also one of the things that can make it feel tremendously claustrophobic to its own. This became viscerally clear to me, when I got out and saw and lived the bigger world outside of Buffalo, then came back four years later to hear the same darned conversations and read the same dramatic headlines about "this time it's REALLY gonna happen!" After a while, you learn to roll your eyes and shake your head, although admittedly, in an affectionate, patronizing sort of way.
I'm here because my family's here, and I love being near them. There are allegiances and loyalties that keep me stoked and motivated. But I can't say it's the most exciting place to be. When you've been somewhere else, there is the feeling that this is a place so caught up in itself that it loses sight of where it was going in the massive obscurity of where it is. When you've been somewhere else where not everyone knows everyone's business, where you can bring up a social topic and not have everyone up-to-speed on it, it makes for a more varied, diverse social experience.
I'm not bad mouthing this place. I love it, I'll probably be here for a while, and I think I work hard to help make it a better place as a teacher at one of our premier schools. But I do encourage college grads to get the heck out for a while, discover some other realities, and build some objectivity. Hopefully, they will do so with the intelligent discretion that will allow them to come back with a realistic view that isn't all about salary and economics. It will, hopefully, be an informed objectivity that balances the emotional ties with the bottom line. We don't need hopeless blind romanticism, which breeds complacency and feeds inertia, but neither can we afford cold calculation that disregards tradition. It's too warm of a city for that.
For those people who don't think Buffalo is 'hip' or 'happening' or 'avant garde' enough, my suggestion is to make that happen. Go out and see EVERYTHING. I live in NYC now and am thinking of coming back home. In NYC, I go to every little backwater theater (there are still some here amidst all the blockbusters), every contemporary dance performance, every gallery show I can manage and every performance or concert I can make it to. That's why I moved here and I do it until I'm exhausted. When I move back there I plan on doing the same - and I do every event and show I can when I'm in town, which is monthly.
Art happens everywhere - and it can't happen here or anywhere else without participation. People are making art for everyone - if Buffalo is going to be a destination, it's going to be that because people want to be part of the offerings. When I read about struggling art and performance groups there I want to cry - I know there are hundreds of people in the suburbs (where I grew up) who wouldn't think of venturing into the city to see things. I know I go out here even when I'm tired or don't feel so much like it. I do it because it's do that or sit home and watch tv. Sometimes I'm one of five people in a room. But at least I'm there.
In terms of Toronto, I'm sure there is plenty of good stuff - my wish would be that people would stay local until they've exhausted every option. Prior to leaving town years ago, when there wasn't any enthusiasm or jobs or 'old home week' I'd spend as much time as I could at the Albright Knox. I think one could go there every day of the summer and not really 'know' the works.
I know that the hesitation of many of my friends is that they are afraid they if they moved, they won't find the kind of art/performance/dance that they would here. For them it has less to do with money or the cost of living or housing as it does with the perception of a cultural backwater (which I'm constantly banging on about Buffalo's cultural offerings to everyone who will listen). I'd love for Buffalo to be as much of an art town as it is a sports town. I know that would change the conversation.
And why not Buffalo for a huge, fabulous contemporary art fair? Not to dis Allentown, but there are serious collectors with major money running all over the world in pursuit of contemporary art who would never dream of coming to Buffalo - Allentown is a different kind of art event that's not even really on the contemporary art person's radar - we're talking people with hundreds of thousands of dollars to spend (or millions for the right piece) who are looking for the types of work that were shown in that fabulous Albright Knox 'abstraction' show last year.
I mean, who would ever imagine that half of NYC would pack up every year and travel to Marfa Texas? Or South Beach? Or Basel? So why not Buffalo? That 'abstraction' show was so beyond world-class. For some reason, it didn't even make the NYTimes. I had to send friends from here out to see it in the last week it was up - they came back here blown away.
I really believe it's about looking outward, changing the conversation, and then focusing locally - with a global view. Art is global and the art market is roaring right now. The Armory show at the piers in NYC last year had hundreds of thousands of people show up from all over the world. Buffalo should share and share in the wealth. I think the dialogue would change in terms of the people sitting on the sidelines - those who are thinking about coming back but afraid they'll end up cut off or missing out.
I know this post was all over the place - I think really what I'm trying to say is that art as a dialogue is perhaps not given the importance it should to make the city attractive to a certain type of person who does participate (a la Richard Florida). And the dialogue, I think, needs to be both local and global - small and large. Amidst all the conversations about casinos and housing and sports teams, the art dialogue seems to be somewhat drowned out. Which is a shame.
Just my humble opinion.
I don't think anyone is arguing that there is nothing to do in Buffalo (willis anyone?) The fact of discussion here is that nothing, and when I say nothing I mean absolutely nothing, is being done to keep young talent in Buffalo. If you are gonna try to argue this point you might as well stop now. People do things that benefit them. If politicians found it beneficial to them to help Buffalo, then they would. If business leaders found it beneficial to them (and shareholders) to move to Buffalo, then they would. Like everyone else said low housing is not enough to keep young ambitious minds in the city. You need to bring jobs. You need to stop raising taxes on a shrinking population base. Nobody wants that. You want to know why people stay in Buffalo? 99% of the time: the family. One day that feature will be gone and then there may be nothing. You need business to bring and keep people. If you don't agree with this then you are just kidding yourself.
We should advertise things like this and about our city’s culture. I just got back from vacation and I saw a 15 page spread about life in Rochester, NY in U.S.Airway’s magazine. It was voted the 6th best place to live in the U.S. according to the magazine. Now, I must say I think Buffalo has much more to offer. Why don’t we advertise in national magazines about the city of Buffalo? Maybe people wouldn’t say “I wouldn’t live in Buffalo. It’s too cold and they get too much snow.”
Maryland,
Thanks for articulately voicing one of my long-time misgivings about Buffalo, which is:
> However -- and I'd be willing to defend this -- it certainly doesn't FEEL > like a progressive city if you're from here. It's difficult to understand > that if you haven't lived elsewhere. That's what I mean by the > psychological aspect.
You're right - it IS something that is difficult to explain.
Even though Buffalo's days as an industrial center are long gone, the dominant culture and mindset of the region are still very blue-collar oriented. Buffalo's most loyal patriots may defend it as being "real" or "authentic", but it's something I don't think many young professionals can identify with.
Yes, there's Elmwood Village, Allentown and North Buffalo, but it seems like an island compared to the region as a whole. Leave the island, and you're in a world that can seem dominated by church spaghetti dinners and meat raffles, gin mills with Genny signs, vinyl roof-topped Buicks, sports fanaticism ... you get the idea. The region beyond EV and North Buffalo can seem quite parochial and insular; a place where the collective mindset stopped evolving and changing sometime in the 1970s.
For the sake of argument, let's say the Buffalo region is 10% Elmwoody, 15% East Sideish, 15% Amherstish, 25% Tonawandaish and 35% Cheektowagaish. When someone move to a region that seems much more "Elmwoody" and "Amherstish", and far less "Cheektowagish", coming back to Buffalo can incite reverse culture shock. You may have felt like you not only belonged in your new city, but were also embraced. When I'm back in Buffalo, I often feel like I'm on the outside looking in; the region as a whole more eagerly embraces the likes of Blue Collar Stan rather than Young Professional Dan.
An indicator, of sorts - dog parks. Over 700 cities, towns and villages in the United States have dog parks, but there are none to be found in the Buffalo area yet. Buffalo seems to get the "good stuff", whether it's a type of urban amenity, trend, form of development, ethnic cuisine, or something else that may be sweeping the nation, far later than its peer cities. A young professional in Buffalo may not just feel like the outside looking in, but also like they're out of the loop.
Dan, I wholeheartedly agree, and this is why I bang on about getting out and seeing art. There is a progressive group of peope in Buffalo - but the prevailing sentiment, I feel, is that old and conventional are good - new and progressive are suspect.
I think this is driven by both a certain contingent of the population as well as the government - which poisons the efforts of people who try to bring new insights. If the entire city government took a month - got out of Buffalo - and did a tour of NYC, SF, Providence, Austin, Portland, Charleston and a few other select cities where creatives flourish it would become obvious what works and what doesn't. People may slam Richard Florida, but one only has to visit these other cities - some with way fewer assets than Buffalo - to see the results of encouraging a progressive dialogue.
I mean, casinos? Come on - what major city focuses so much on casinos as a dialogue rather than business incentives? After 9/11 NYC essentially gave developers carte blanche to build what they wanted where they wanted. While that in itself has resulted in a rather ugly underbelly (the opposite problem of Buffalo's) the government's first response was not to open up a casino at 'ground zero'. Instead, by making downtown an attractive place to live and work, there are more young professionals there than before 9/11. I love that the loft culture has finally come to Buffalo - I hope it takes off. As one who lives in the middle of the city in a loft, I find it an incredibly invigorating lifestyle.
In any case, my point being is that to kill the Elmwood hotel project, to create all this flak over Gates Circle, to talk about putting Bass Pro at the waterfront - it all flies in the face of the tack that 'successful' cities have taken. For instance, Charleston, by making their waterfront somewhere that people want to be (it's the 'Central Park' of that city) and growing Spoleto into a world class festival, has turned the city from a southern backwater into an international destination.
Ditto for Providence. Rather than dithering for fifty years, Buddy Cianci (the 'disgraced' mayor) took a stand and made the canal a showpiece. The city is livable, and completely progressive in terms of it's relationship to the arts. Real estate prices have quintupled over the last ten years there.
Finally I see this same energy coming to Buffalo - driven by an inner core of die-hards who are making sure that word gets out and pushing a creative agenda --- despite the provincialism of certain people in city government and backwards thinking suburbanites (I get to say that - they are my people). And I'm looking very forward to watching the city turn the corner - I just hope the efforts of the people moving things forward are not thwarted by the naysayers and those who choose to hold back progress because they are afraid of the future. The future is here in many other cities and it's really damn fun.
More dog runs!
Dan, I wholeheartedly agree, and this is why I bang on about getting out and seeing art. There is a progressive group of peope in Buffalo - but the prevailing sentiment, I feel, is that old and conventional are good - new and progressive are suspect.
I think this is driven by both a certain contingent of the population as well as certain aspects of city government - which poisons the efforts of people who try to bring new insights. If the entire city government took a month - got out of Buffalo - and did a tour of NYC, SF, Providence, Austin, Portland, Charleston and a few other select cities where creatives flourish it would become obvious what works and what doesn't. People may slam Richard Florida, but one only has to visit these other cities - some with way fewer assets than Buffalo - to see the results of encouraging a progressive dialogue. Young professionals gravitate to cool environments - they bring their energy, their businesses or business ideas and their families with them. A company choosing to relocate a hundred people will take into consideration the welfare of their employees - how many people will a company be able to retain when they move? If the company has a lot of younger people looking for fun things to do, will Buffalo live up to that? I am well aware of this - as I am considering moving back.
I mean, casinos? Come on - what major city focuses so much on casinos as a dialogue rather than business incentives? After 9/11 NYC essentially gave developers carte blanche to build what they wanted where they wanted. While that in itself has resulted in a rather ugly underbelly (the opposite problem of Buffalo's) the government's first response was not to open up a casino at 'ground zero'. Instead, by making downtown an attractive place to live and work, there are more young professionals there than before 9/11. I love that the loft culture has finally come to Buffalo - I hope it takes off. As one who lives in the middle of the city in a loft, I find it an incredibly invigorating lifestyle.
In any case, my point being is that to kill the Elmwood hotel project, to create all this flak over Gates Circle, to talk about putting Bass Pro at the waterfront - it all flies in the face of the tack that 'successful' cities have taken. For instance, Charleston, by making their waterfront somewhere that people want to be (it's the 'Central Park' of that city) and growing Spoleto into a world class festival, has turned the city from a southern backwater into an international destination.
Ditto for Providence. Rather than dithering for fifty years, Buddy Cianci (the 'disgraced' mayor) took a stand and made the canal a showpiece. The city is livable, and completely progressive in terms of it's relationship to the arts. Real estate prices have quintupled over the last ten years there.
Finally I see this same energy coming to Buffalo - driven by an inner core of die-hards who are making sure that word gets out and pushing a creative agenda --- despite the provincialism of certain people in city government and backwards thinking suburbanites (I get to say that - they are my people). And I'm looking very forward to watching the city turn the corner - I just hope the efforts of the people moving things forward are not thwarted by the naysayers and those who choose to hold back progress because they are afraid of the future. The future is here in many other cities and it's really damn fun.
More dog runs!
Just on the subject of progressive cities, one thing I miss about Buffalo that Chicago (and any other city I've ever lived in for that matter) doesn't do, is recycle. Like, wtf? We started doing that 15 years ago.
I agree with the above posters who say that we should be comparing to Cleveland and Pittsburgh, not to New York or Chicago.
Yes, Cleveland and Pittsburgh are much more relevant comparisons than NYC or Chicago.
But we should also keep in mind that Cleveland and Pittsburgh are both suffering declines similar to ours in population and jobs, and not hold those cities up as good general examples to strive for in economic respects.
I think it's smart to also make comparisons to places of comparable size to us that are growing people and jobs at rates comparable to or better than national averages. Examples of those are well known. Inherently, those are the places to which young people are moving in much greater numbers than Buffalo, Pittsburgh, Cleveland.
And overly focusing on a place's cost of living can miss concerns important to most people. That's like overly focusing on the price of a stock and not also looking at likely growth prospects, or overly focusing on the price of a house or car without looking at likely changes in its future value. Cost of living is important, but it's generally a trailing indicator.
AtwaterLouse, I agree that we shouldn't model ourselves exactly like Pittsburgh or Cleveland, but from my perspective (and having no particular interest in Pittsburgh or Cleveland), why could I have made nearly twice as much (not exaggerating) as a first year attorney at a number of law firms in Pittsburgh or Cleveland than at the largest firms in Buffalo? I agree that life is larger than law firm salaries for most people, but I think it's relevant, even if just in an anecdotal sense. It's easy to see first year attorneys in Charlotte (as an example of a roughly similarly sized city to Buffalo that's growing) make nearly twice as much, but why do they make that much in Cleveland and Pittsburgh, too (and not in Buffalo)? I only have knowledge of the legal market, so no idea if it's similar in others.
Do you see what I'm trying to say? Take an office job, or a teacher, whatever, making $30k--is there any reason why this person should automatically make twice as much just because the job is in NYC? Sure--it's expensive. $60k in Charlotte? Maybe, it's growing. $60k in Cleveland? Sounds kind of silly, right? Well, that's exactly what the lawyer situation is like--it's not growing, it doesn't cost more to live there, it's comparable in many respects, yet you can be paid twice as much.
Cleveland and Pittsburgh are quality cities, and very similar to Buffalo (in good and less good ways). While they are suffering in ways similar to Buffalo, they're still managing to pay young professionals salaries competitive with NYC or Chicago (or Charlotte), yet they offer the same low cost of living as Buffalo--that's my rambling point, for what it's worth.
I love and miss Buffalo and imagine I'll return someday to raise my (future) children the was I was raised--I'm not a basher.
Midwest... I'm in the hotel industry and under 25. Took a job here in suburban Chicago that started me at 33% more than what I was making in Buffalo. If I had stayed with the company I was with back home it would have taken me 8 years to make what I'm making now with the wage scale and annual raises etc. ( excluding promotions of course).
The town I'm in is a distance from the tendy spots and the cost of living isn't drastically higher than what I have paid in Buffalo.
See, I've always thought the depressed wages were simply about the growth factor. Growing markets ( NYC, Chicago, Charlotte) require the best workers thus resulting in higher wages b/c of increased demand and low supply. I get that part.
But you go ahead and toss Cleveland and Pittsburgh into the mix and you've got two cities that are in the same shrinking bracket as we are who pay higher wages than Buffalo. ( I can speak for Cleveland and the Hotel industry((Girlfriends from there)) but I've never been to Pittsburgh).
I'm fairly familar with economics and I'd hate to go and blame it on taxes. Though not as harsh as NYS, the tax climates in Pennsylvania and Ohio are far from favorable. Ohio and specifically Cleveland are in some seriously trouble.
Which leaves me where I started... why would I make more in Cleveland or Pittsburgh and not Buffalo?
You'd figure since businesses have a lower overhead and cost of living way higher they'd either shell it out or keep it but I really don't see either happening.
Yes that's interesting about the much higher lawyer pay in Pittsburgh and Cleveland.
If it's business-related lawyering my guess is that might be due to having more large corporate HQ than Buffalo, demand for lawyers is much higher and thus more salary competition? Even though those places are shrinking about as fast as Buffalo is, they for whatever reason still have many more big company HQs than we do. And maybe that over time, the law firms in those places need to keep salaries high in order to prevent their lawyers from being hired away to work at HQs of those huge companies?
From Wikipedia: "Cleveland is the corporate headquarters of many large companies such as National City Corporation, Eaton Corporation, Forest City Enterprises, Sherwin-Williams Company, and KeyCorp." ... Jones Day, one of the largest law firms in the world, traces its origins to Cleveland, and its Cleveland office remains the firm's largest." And Pittsburgh even more - wow, ton of companies there - HQ to seven Fortune 500 companies (Allegheny Technologies, H. J. Heinz Company, Mellon Financial Corporation, PNC Financial, PPG Industries, WESCO International, U.S. Steel) Plus they also have HQ of six more companies in the Fortune 1000: Allegheny Energy, American Eagle Outfitters, Consol Energy, Dick's Sporting Goods, Kennametal, Wheeling-Pittsburgh Steel Buffalo, by comparison, has a HQ of just one Fortune 500 co, M&T bank if I recall correct. Not sure in any more here are in Fortune 1000.
This could also help explain higher pay in hospitality industry as well, since having a lot more corporate visitors compared to Buffalo perhaps means many more higher-end hotel rooms and spurs salary competition even more than tourist hotels might.
Don't know much about hospitality industry, but all salaries are driven by supply and demand of course.
Just a note for those of you still going on about the Cleveland/Pittsburgh point (two cities I happen to love), I plugged them into the "Cost of Living Wizard" and here is what it said:
In Pittsburgh, your $35,000 would be worth $2465 less than it is here in Buffalo. Their cost of living is 5.3% higher and their employers pay an average of 1.8% less to their employees for the same jobs.
In Cleveland, there is a slightly better scenario. That Buffalo salary of $35K is worth $1840 less because the cost of living is 6% higher, but employers do pay a whopping .7% more.
Not that either of those cities don't have their own set of advantages, but Buffalo really needs to get over its inferiority complex- and so do its residents.
Perhaps any straying from politically correct "facts" such as a Cost of Living Wizard in ways that don't jump on a bandwagon might seem to some as an inferiority complex. That might say much more about complex accusers than it does about anyone who was "still going on about it" in a rational discussion. Buffalo (a city I happen to be objective about) really needs to get over its loathing of reasoned objective analysis - and so do its residents.
isola- I agree with almost everything you've written; let me just disagree with you on one small point. An occasional weekend in Toronto is a lot of fun for someone living in Buffalo but accustomed to a larger city, particularly in terms of culinary offerings. I love to patronize Somali Star on Grant Street, but since it's the only African restaurant I know of in the area (Christa, correct me if I'm wrong!), if I want Ethiopian food, I'll hoof it up to Toronto. I also think there's something to be said for the positive psychological impact of crossing the border and entering another country, even if it's a border we've all crossed hundreds of times. ("Citizenship?" "United States...") I agree that supporting local artists is incredibly important and I don't go to Toronto for shows (though coincidentally I am about to meet some Torontonians who are coming to Buffalo for the Michael Franti and Spearhead concert tonight). But sometimes a weekend away is restorative, and I think Toronto is great for that. After all, my love of Ethiopian food is simply not enough to sustain the creation of a new restaurant. :) But again, I really appreciate your insights on the topic.
Dan (now living in a very "White" exurb of Cleveland, if I recall correctly) accuses: "An indicator, of sorts - dog parks. Over 700 cities, towns and villages in the United States have dog parks, but there are none to be found in the Buffalo area yet."
700 out of over 50,000. Wow, Buffalo fails to meet up with the 1.4% . Whatever shall we do??
Nothing like moving to a stereotypical Ozzy & Harriet suburb and then attacking your supposedly beloved yet thoroughly spurned hometown, eh? Oh, we forgot: you were too stupid to choose a viable occupation for your own home, so you blame that and not yourself. No "urban planners" needed here. No dentists needed on a duck farm, either. Poor you.
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