People talk too much in generalizations when you do these "studies". I just moved down here to NYC and I pay 400 more a month than I did in Buffalo. Is it worth it? The average starting pay for my industry is 50% higher here, not to mention it, the sky is the limit when it comes to max salary. Plus, if I don't like my job, there are 1000000 others ready to hire, always. I love Buffalo, but it cannot compete. It is a good place to retire sure, after you make your money. But if you are looking for a lifestyle of more than going to the Regal on Friday nights and MT on Saturdays, you gotta try another area. There is also the networking concept that you cannot get in Buffalo, which definitely helps your career. Smart graduates see this, which is why the majority of them leave. Once selfish politicians, high taxes, and unions become the new Bethlehem Steel, there may be a chance to save the city. In the meantime, its best to look elsewhere if you're chasing a dream.

Well said.. the better question is what does $150,000+ buy you in Buffalo. This is a magnificent place to live, there are so many options, so many opportunities. My money goes a lot farther in Buffalo than it did anywhere else (boston, dc, chicago, swiladelphia, charlotte). Leave for the experience, come back for the long-haul.

A bird told me that the cost of living was 220% higher in NYC then in the rest of average America, including Buffalo we're talking a national average here. I find it extremly tough that the cost of living here is only -60.3 % less today than what it is in NYC. Your in the poor house if you live BYYOURSELF in NYC on $35k

These statistics and GIOA provide for an interesting comparison as a 20 year old who left for "higher wages" in Chicago. One begins to realize that the extra couple of dollars an hour I make here goes to the fact that I live here; not because I live good and that theme seems to rear its head in numeros markets I've researched.

Dan, I think we might be in the same to near age bracket. I've heard it to, I have friends who have left.. I've debated ( I still have time).. same story different day. But I've also got friends from all over the country who come to WNY for school and are wonderfully suprised and yes, believe it or not some of them have stayed.

Granted, we don't have the economy of the Carolinas, Florida, or Texas... even though I find it laughable when people say they can't find work, I've never had a problem at all. I've noticed that if your into law, financials, insurance, machinery, sales, GOVERNMENT HAHAH, accounting. you've got it good here and you've got the low cost of living that Chicago or NYC would kill to have over theirs. But this is ignored because of the "Buffaloanian inferiority complex" thats ingraved in all us when we're here.

I find that teachers complain the most about the horrible economy in WNY, are you a teacher dan?? Because we have a lot of teachers here and thats what I tell my teacher friends when they talk about how much this place sucks. It's a drowning pool if your a teacher in Buffalo/WNY, its hard to get a golden NYS job.

But, I'v seen more than one teacher serving food with a masters degree b/c they can't find work... I don't blame them for leaving.

And that character, Wegmans, cheap housing (which is gold), great pizza, won't keep people here by itself, nor willl pure charachter alone keep ppl anywhere, but it is an excellant start.

I don't think Buffalo takes any effort what so ever to make it self competitive with other larger cities for the younger creative class.. even though there is work here and the area oozes large amounts of charachter. Its all about the advertising.

Ya know.. I've often wondered my Buffalo has gone unused for soo long even after I've noticed the bare bones of a "could be" excellant city... then I see who's been in control and the fact that the crap that the younger generation has to be through to get a job and make a decent life in WNY.. isn't worth it. Damn, I wish someone young, good looking, a nd smart would change things...

Then again, if your typing from the South Dan its the same story anywhere in the Northeast. Buffalo, Cleveland, Detroit, Philadelphia, NYC ( added 200k residents last year just b/c its the immigrant capital of the U.S) Pittsburgh, even Chicago (-62,700 2006-2007) are having problems retaining their populations and their younger creative class just b/c it snows here and the fact that "Anywhere is better than the place you grew up."

We should advertise things like this and about our city’s culture. I just got back from vacation and I saw a 15 page spread about life in Rochester, NY in U.S.Airway’s magazine. It was voted the 6th best place to live in the U.S. according to the magazine. Now, I must say I think Buffalo has much more to offer. Why don’t we advertise in national magazines about the city of Buffalo? Maybe people wouldn’t say “I wouldn’t live in Buffalo. It’s too cold and they get too much snow.”

It's good to see I'm not the only one who thinks this way.

Living in Chicago and frequenting NYC and having friends who live in both, I've often wondered what kind of future is available in large metro's like that. The term "Rich mans Playground" comes to mind, ya I could try and make it big and work 4 jobs, sleep 5 hours a day and have a great apartment and live the NYC or Chicago life ( I'm out of here in 31 days). ( Rdominguez) It'd be great, but I'd be working for my apartment, long story short I'm not a high profile lawyer like Tony Armani.

But essentially if I'm by myself or with a girlfriend/roommate whatever who's normal like me.. ( I mean normal as in not working on WAllstreet or a lawyer).. you're not going to be able to see all the shows or do the killer shopping or see lots of exhibits b/c you can't afford it with a standard double income.

Double income here is lower income there, what regular joe can afford an $800 k two bedroom ranch on a teachers salary, cooks salary, or office salary.. it just can't be done. I'm still young but I would like to own someday and by the looks of things here in Chicago, ( One bedroom $300k) Buffalo housing is really attractive.

Funny you mention the blue collar attitude there Duke, I just asked myself that question yesterday. Whats Buffalo or even Erie County doing to specifically lure or create white collar work here in the Western New York Area?

The whole nation is going service oriented.. and every time I pull the paper up on the internet, it's about tax breaks for Ford, or the Buffalo Commerce Park and Certainteed or Delphi tax breaks etc. For the most part thats good it puts people to work bring business back to the city fine, but I don't know any computer science graduates or MBA students who are vying for a job at the STamping Plant??

Not only do I not see any effort on a large scale to keep youth here, but I see no large scale effort to keep/get white collar work here.. its the future of our country and I don't see Buffalo taking a stab at it.

Atwater Louse... I hear Texas is booming and a great place to live.. I have an aunt who just moved there from Florida ( thank god).. have you ever been??

Christa and Duke really hit the nail on the head here.. I also think Buffalo is on the right track and in somewhat of a "definatative stage" regarding its future as a white collar town with a industrial past. I just think the small movement we have now lacks direction and needs an excellent leader to kick this this in the ass.

I'd like to draw attention to Citibank and HSBC who have just located back office operations in the Buffalo Area. ( I know its not the same, just for an example). Along with the new york city downsizing voted on by Citibank stock holders, profits were down ---expenses were up, they're moving jobs from the biggest metro in the country b/c its too expensive. Not to this area unfortunately but an interesting foray to pursue when a flight to NYC is $120 roundtrip.

This is the syndrome this is beginning to affect every major metro in the U.S... costs are too high and there are some operations that can't be move to India. Buffalo will never be a major major city but I do think it has a unique opportunity to piggy back on Chicago, Cleveland, Toronto, and NYC.. b/c its more expensive to do business there then here. This is the beginning of a large movement here people...

Costs are rising here in Chicago as well, an assessment cap is about to expire. Assessments on all types of property have been capped at 3-7% in the Chicagoland area just simply due to rising property values. Its about to expire and won't be renewed.. taxes are pegged to rise 18-20% on residental, commerical and industrial properties in the Chicago metro area. Downtown being the hardest hit of course.

Don't bitch about the taxes or how downtown sucks ass... we've got to get things together here if Buffalo is every going to have a future for itself or even for its youth.

There will be a time in the near future where Businesses all around the country will be choosing with their feet just as numerous Buffaloanians have in the past.. its really just up to the citizentry to make something happen.

For all those that think finding a job in NYC is so easy apparently Forbes didnt inerview you because Buffalo preformed better than NYC in the Best Cities for Jobs in 2006. Buffalo is the 73 best city in America for jobs up 5 spots from 2005, New York was 75. Buffalo also beat Pittsburgh (76), Memphis (80), St. Louis (81), Chicago (82), Boston (83), San Francisco (86), LA (88), Fresno (90), San Jose (91), Cleveland (92), Milwaukee (94), Dayton and Toledo (95, 96), New Orleans (99), Detroit (100).

http://www.forbes.com/home/2007/02/15/best-cities-jobs-leadership-careers_cx_hc_0216cityjobs_table.html

I love Buffalo and have to defend why to a lot of my friends and my dad on a daily basis. I'm sick of it, but i will never stop. I want to start a property development company focused on the city some day and when i retire, own a small store on elmwood and no one can stop me from doing that regardless of what they think about the city. I think people just need somthing to complain about to function. P.S. the Taste of Buffalo was GREAT today!

Lifestyle. Really, a lot of people leave Buffalo not because they can't find work, but because they want to be in a place where there's a large, thriving and growing group of their peers, or a place that offers a lifestyle that they can't find in Buffalo. A traffic jam on the Perimeter, the threat of earthquakes or hurricanes, or a $1,500/month studio apartment is seen as a small price to pay to live the lifestyle they want. As an expat, I've met other expats who have echoed the same thoughts; they feel more comfortable in their new places of residence than they ever did in Buffalo.

Unfortunately, Census data show that Elmwood Village, good pizza, Wegmans, short commutes and $120,000 houses aren't enough to keep young professionals here. Talking up cheap housing and repeating tired cliches like "Buffalo's a 20 minute city" and "you can shovel a blizzard, but you can't shovel a hurricane" may make the locals feel good, but it hasn't been very effective at getting the expats back home, much less keeping young Buffalonians close to home turf.

It is important to expand the search for new Bflo residents to those already in the metro area, but "exempt" from living in the city while drawing generous paychecks from city taxpayers.

A new city charter was implemented under Mayor Masiello in nthe mid 1990's requiring city residency for all city workers. But the law has never been effectivley implemented because top level political cronies refused to live in the city. The most dramatic residency violator is "Executive Assistant" to the City Comptroller Tony Farina, who has lived in Niagara County for 6 years, while illegally collecting about $1/2 million in salary & benefits.

Currently City Comptroller SanFilippo, always referred to in the Bflo News at "fiscal watchdog", is running for re-election. The Charter requires him to "certify residency" of his staff. Instead he has illegally covered-up Farina's non-residency, as did Comptoller Nanula before him, who even co-signed for Farina's 244 Brentwood North Tonawanda mortgage.

Another Masiello appointee, BMHA Assistant Executive Thomas A Williams, moved to Clarence in 1995 as he was hired by Masiello to his $80K-plus HUD-funded job, having merely a GED. Williams worked to implement an incredible "opt-out" for BMHA workers, enabling them to pay about $1000 annually for the "privilege' of living in suburbs, while paid to house the inner-city poor.

But nobody knows how many BMHA "opt-outs" there are, or if they have paid for the 'privilege'. The Comptroller audited BMHA, but covered-up that problem, knowing that Farina's non-residency made it "unmentionable".

And, of course, the incredible "exemption" for Bflo cops, firefighters, & sanitation workers living in the city is never mentioned by the Comptroller either. The NYS exemption is based on utterly obsolete law from WW II times when NYC & Bflo emplyees found it difficult to afford city living.

Now cops & firefighters are among the city's best paid workers. But it has been INCONVENIENT to change a law that could bring $10's of millions of city payroll into a struggling city economy.

Will the issue even be mentioned in SanFilippo's campaign . . . as he runs unopposed for a new term, 'in-house campaign manager Farina" at his side?

Dick Kern

But nobody mentions such illegality

A cheap house is only enjoyable when the "neighbors" aren't crackheads. crack dealers, trash with blasting "music" or scumbags. Come join me on my front steps for a night of observation, if you doubt this.

I'd rather sit down for hours and state what I love about my city than worrying about comparing it to others by putting them down. It's like dissing somebodies mother. What's the point? My city feels like family to me. I feel a part of it and want to see it suceed no matter how ill it gets. I would not ditch my mom in times of need, nor would I ditch my city and neighbors.

Any missing element to this city is just an opporunity for someone to put in the work to fill it, and if it is a true void: make a lot of money off of taking the chance on it.

Perhaps any straying from politically correct "facts" such as a Cost of Living Wizard in ways that don't jump on a bandwagon might seem to some as an inferiority complex. That might say much more about complex accusers than it does about anyone who was "still going on about it" in a rational discussion. Buffalo (a city I happen to be objective about) really needs to get over its loathing of reasoned objective analysis - and so do its residents.

I'm a long time Buffalo resident, but a bit new to this website. A little surprising that such a simple post has caused alot of the ex's to tell us why they've left. I guess I'd like to say one thing. It's easy to leave. Takes no special skill, just a call to a moving company, and thougths that it will be better elsewhere. Your reasoning about jobs, etc. is a tad on the simplistic side. You may have good reason for leaving, and I'm pleased to hear that you're content in your decision (so much so that you're spending time on a Buffalo website), but I'd wonder how fully a person's character has developed if they choose a place to live based solely on what the perceived networking opportunites will be.

From a professional standpoint the ever 'flattening' world seems to make where you call home less important. MT (I have a soft spot for Ziggy's) may not be enough to make Buffalo your home, but my knowing my family's here, and will be, is enough for me to make it mine, whatever the networking downside.

For all those that think finding a job in NYC is so easy apparently Forbes didnt inerview you because Buffalo preformed better than NYC in the Best Cities for Jobs in 2006. Buffalo is the 73 best city in America for jobs...

Andrew, curious if you agree with Forbes that there's 72 better places in the U.S. for jobs, or do you use that ranking only to make the selective comaprisons you want to make vs. 74, 75, 76, etc. ?

It might be rude of me to guess this, and I'll gladly stand corrected if you say I'm mistaken, but my guess is that even though you used it above as "evidence" to claim Buffalo is superior to Forbes #74 and down, if anyone dared use that same list to claim anything about 72 other places (seventy-freaken-two!) each being better than Buffalo for jobs, then you would suddenly find reasons to dispute the Forbes methodologies. Cake - check. Eat it too - check.

Looking at objective statistics, the percentage job growth in NYC for 2006 was more than double that of Buffalo/Niagara metro: 1.7% for NYC (which happened to equal the national average) vs. 0.8% for Buffalo/Niagara.

So using that most recent year as an example, yeah I think the fact that NYC grew jobs at over double the percent we grew them would mean that the people you put down have a much better point than you do. Dor the average job seeker - yes they'd have an easier time in NYC finding a job compared to in Buffalo. Not every case, but on average so the means for most people.

Double the jobs growth rate is a huge difference.

Does that mean it's "so easy" to find a job in NYC? Well, everything's relative of course. Does that mean life in NYC is better than Buffalo? Of course not. But it does mean your critique of those saying that in general it's easier to find a job in NYC is bizarre.

Side note - even more successful than NYC and the nation, was the state of Texas with 2.7% job growth in 2006, approx double that of NY State which had 1.4% growth.

Reference for all of above: http://www.ppinys.org/nyecon/stats_jan07.pdf

When you talk about how much you love Buffalo and want to open a business here, etc., I would not argue with any of that - it's a personal preference you have and many others have - wonderful. No statistics or magazine rankings needed.

But when you put down others such as those discussing NYC job market as if they don't know what they're talking about, then you're going way too far. Those people do have a good point. Now to you, that point may be outweighed by many other factors - that's fine. But it doesn't mean they don't have a good point.

Here is to hoping that Buffalo's low cost of living ends up making it the most expensive city in America!

I think that lots of people realize that Buffalo is a fantastic place to live if you have a good job, How many other places in the US can you make 30-40k and do "alright" and make 60K and live like a king ( as a single) Get married and with even two moderate 40K incomes you are riding pretty high around here.

Housing is the biggest advantage Buffalo has over places like NYC, Chicago and San Fran. I live in San Francisco now and this comment space isn't big enough to describe what it is like to walk into a tiny 2 bedroom 1 bath house with original shag carpeting that is selling for $1.1 million dollars. You want to settle in San Fran? Come take a walk in my shoes.

First year associates at a big law firm in Buffalo make literally half the starting salary as in NYC. I want to come back, but I can't justify turning down a job that pays more net than i would get gross in buffalo...i'll be back when I want to start a business of my own, though

I wonder if the BCVB would put this on their site? The graph says it all.

Maryland,

Thanks for articulately voicing one of my long-time misgivings about Buffalo, which is:

> However -- and I'd be willing to defend this -- it certainly doesn't FEEL > like a progressive city if you're from here. It's difficult to understand > that if you haven't lived elsewhere. That's what I mean by the > psychological aspect.

You're right - it IS something that is difficult to explain.

Even though Buffalo's days as an industrial center are long gone, the dominant culture and mindset of the region are still very blue-collar oriented. Buffalo's most loyal patriots may defend it as being "real" or "authentic", but it's something I don't think many young professionals can identify with.

Yes, there's Elmwood Village, Allentown and North Buffalo, but it seems like an island compared to the region as a whole. Leave the island, and you're in a world that can seem dominated by church spaghetti dinners and meat raffles, gin mills with Genny signs, vinyl roof-topped Buicks, sports fanaticism ... you get the idea. The region beyond EV and North Buffalo can seem quite parochial and insular; a place where the collective mindset stopped evolving and changing sometime in the 1970s.

For the sake of argument, let's say the Buffalo region is 10% Elmwoody, 15% East Sideish, 15% Amherstish, 25% Tonawandaish and 35% Cheektowagaish. When someone move to a region that seems much more "Elmwoody" and "Amherstish", and far less "Cheektowagish", coming back to Buffalo can incite reverse culture shock. You may have felt like you not only belonged in your new city, but were also embraced. When I'm back in Buffalo, I often feel like I'm on the outside looking in; the region as a whole more eagerly embraces the likes of Blue Collar Stan rather than Young Professional Dan.

An indicator, of sorts - dog parks. Over 700 cities, towns and villages in the United States have dog parks, but there are none to be found in the Buffalo area yet. Buffalo seems to get the "good stuff", whether it's a type of urban amenity, trend, form of development, ethnic cuisine, or something else that may be sweeping the nation, far later than its peer cities. A young professional in Buffalo may not just feel like the outside looking in, but also like they're out of the loop.

Yes that's interesting about the much higher lawyer pay in Pittsburgh and Cleveland.

If it's business-related lawyering my guess is that might be due to having more large corporate HQ than Buffalo, demand for lawyers is much higher and thus more salary competition? Even though those places are shrinking about as fast as Buffalo is, they for whatever reason still have many more big company HQs than we do. And maybe that over time, the law firms in those places need to keep salaries high in order to prevent their lawyers from being hired away to work at HQs of those huge companies?

From Wikipedia: "Cleveland is the corporate headquarters of many large companies such as National City Corporation, Eaton Corporation, Forest City Enterprises, Sherwin-Williams Company, and KeyCorp." ... Jones Day, one of the largest law firms in the world, traces its origins to Cleveland, and its Cleveland office remains the firm's largest." And Pittsburgh even more - wow, ton of companies there - HQ to seven Fortune 500 companies (Allegheny Technologies, H. J. Heinz Company, Mellon Financial Corporation, PNC Financial, PPG Industries, WESCO International, U.S. Steel) Plus they also have HQ of six more companies in the Fortune 1000: Allegheny Energy, American Eagle Outfitters, Consol Energy, Dick's Sporting Goods, Kennametal, Wheeling-Pittsburgh Steel Buffalo, by comparison, has a HQ of just one Fortune 500 co, M&T bank if I recall correct. Not sure in any more here are in Fortune 1000.

This could also help explain higher pay in hospitality industry as well, since having a lot more corporate visitors compared to Buffalo perhaps means many more higher-end hotel rooms and spurs salary competition even more than tourist hotels might.

Don't know much about hospitality industry, but all salaries are driven by supply and demand of course.

I agree with the above posters who say that we should be comparing to Cleveland and Pittsburgh, not to New York or Chicago.

Yes, Cleveland and Pittsburgh are much more relevant comparisons than NYC or Chicago.

But we should also keep in mind that Cleveland and Pittsburgh are both suffering declines similar to ours in population and jobs, and not hold those cities up as good general examples to strive for in economic respects.

I think it's smart to also make comparisons to places of comparable size to us that are growing people and jobs at rates comparable to or better than national averages. Examples of those are well known. Inherently, those are the places to which young people are moving in much greater numbers than Buffalo, Pittsburgh, Cleveland.

And overly focusing on a place's cost of living can miss concerns important to most people. That's like overly focusing on the price of a stock and not also looking at likely growth prospects, or overly focusing on the price of a house or car without looking at likely changes in its future value. Cost of living is important, but it's generally a trailing indicator.

Midwest... I'm in the hotel industry and under 25. Took a job here in suburban Chicago that started me at 33% more than what I was making in Buffalo. If I had stayed with the company I was with back home it would have taken me 8 years to make what I'm making now with the wage scale and annual raises etc. ( excluding promotions of course).

The town I'm in is a distance from the tendy spots and the cost of living isn't drastically higher than what I have paid in Buffalo.

See, I've always thought the depressed wages were simply about the growth factor. Growing markets ( NYC, Chicago, Charlotte) require the best workers thus resulting in higher wages b/c of increased demand and low supply. I get that part.

But you go ahead and toss Cleveland and Pittsburgh into the mix and you've got two cities that are in the same shrinking bracket as we are who pay higher wages than Buffalo. ( I can speak for Cleveland and the Hotel industry((Girlfriends from there)) but I've never been to Pittsburgh).

I'm fairly familar with economics and I'd hate to go and blame it on taxes. Though not as harsh as NYS, the tax climates in Pennsylvania and Ohio are far from favorable. Ohio and specifically Cleveland are in some seriously trouble.

Which leaves me where I started... why would I make more in Cleveland or Pittsburgh and not Buffalo?

You'd figure since businesses have a lower overhead and cost of living way higher they'd either shell it out or keep it but I really don't see either happening.

tonyarmani, I think you are sadly guilty of using generalizations.

Ditto Hospitable!!

I don't think anyone is arguing that there is nothing to do in Buffalo (willis anyone?) The fact of discussion here is that nothing, and when I say nothing I mean absolutely nothing, is being done to keep young talent in Buffalo. If you are gonna try to argue this point you might as well stop now. People do things that benefit them. If politicians found it beneficial to them to help Buffalo, then they would. If business leaders found it beneficial to them (and shareholders) to move to Buffalo, then they would. Like everyone else said low housing is not enough to keep young ambitious minds in the city. You need to bring jobs. You need to stop raising taxes on a shrinking population base. Nobody wants that. You want to know why people stay in Buffalo? 99% of the time: the family. One day that feature will be gone and then there may be nothing. You need business to bring and keep people. If you don't agree with this then you are just kidding yourself.

isola and backfrommaryland, really great comments!

Dan (now living in a very "White" exurb of Cleveland, if I recall correctly) accuses: "An indicator, of sorts - dog parks. Over 700 cities, towns and villages in the United States have dog parks, but there are none to be found in the Buffalo area yet."

700 out of over 50,000. Wow, Buffalo fails to meet up with the 1.4% . Whatever shall we do??

Nothing like moving to a stereotypical Ozzy & Harriet suburb and then attacking your supposedly beloved yet thoroughly spurned hometown, eh? Oh, we forgot: you were too stupid to choose a viable occupation for your own home, so you blame that and not yourself. No "urban planners" needed here. No dentists needed on a duck farm, either. Poor you.